Is .400 done

[44Niners]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
What forums are you looking at... the topics that were locked contained NO constructive criticism, it was basiclly these two things:

- You're a fanboy if you don't agree with me.

&

- .400 is going to flop, lets call them .250 Studios instead.

Thats not constructive, there's actual debate occuring in the sticky thread in the TPF forum, the two thread that were locked contained name-calling, and were un-needed since there was a thread for the sole purpose of commenting on the release delay.

weak excuse - they were locked becasue .400 did not like what was being said. plain and simple and very very bush league.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by AZSpeechCoach
The English teacher in me is screaming.

You have an english teacher in you?!?

One of my High School English teachers was fired for that not too long ago.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by 44Niners
weak excuse - they were locked becasue .400 did not like what was being said. plain and simple and very very bush league.

Interesting... how exactly do you know the real reason why they were locked? Do you know 100% who is going to win the Super Bowl and what the score will be? I wish I could read minds like you .

[Bee]

Originally posted by 44Niners
No the reason I believe they are in trouble is as follows:

4. the delay, which I agree happens all the time. However the vast majority of the .400 products are in development and with a poor track record it would not be at all surprising to see the whole thing go up in smoke.

I actually think the delay will help TPF. Assuming they release it about a month after FOF2004 they should be able to attract a lot of the folks who were only going to buy 1 game. When 2 games come out at the same time people may hesitate to buy both, but a month apart a lot of folks will be more inclined to pick up both titles. Also, there's going to be bugs with FOF2004. Every game has them and on release a lot of people jump all over every small bug or issue that comes up. When that happens (and it will happen), some will decide to try TPF out of frustration.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Joe Canadian
Interesting... how exactly do you know the real reason why they were locked? Do you know 100% who is going to win the Super Bowl and what the score will be? I wish I could read minds like you .

Maybe I'm just not understanding the Canadian logic here, but let me try and track the progression of this arguement. Someone claims to know the reason why threads on a message board were shut down in the past, so you then transfer this to being able to give the teams that will be in the Super Bowl and what the final score will be. Now, from someone claiming they know the reason for something in the past, you equate this with being able to tell what will happen in the future, when a better analogy would be him knowing what teams were in and what the scores were of previous Super Bowls, and even that logic would be very flawed. Then, you lead into with the semblance of correlation between being able to predict future events, something that nobody knows what will happen, to having the ability to read minds, and all that when it simply seems to be a matter of perception?

[ScottVib]

The fact is the reason they were closed was already cited here, If we wanted to "stamp out" those who disagreed with us, why would we even let the threads remain on the board?, why not delete them... then we've really stamped them out. The fact is there were three topics covering the same thing, two of which had devolved into pissing matches between posters, those threads were closed and the thread that still had healthy debate remained open.

One thing I'm not quite sure about is the throught that the market place changed with FOF 2004's announcement. FOF has been a part of the football text sim marketplace for years. Common sense indicated that Jim would produce another version of his flagship product, this was something we expected. Heck most people on this board thought that when Jim switched gears in his work that he switched to football again, except most guessed it was the college flavor. When it comes down to it, it just plain makes sense for Jim to have gone with FOF 2004 at this time... otherwise he would run the risk of potentially losing some of his fan base to the competition.

In the end we want the same thing I think all of you out there want, to have the best games possible on the market. And if that means we have to delay the release to accomplish this, to me its a no brainer, you delay the release.

Many have cited, mostly on our boards, well why don't you just release what you have and add the features in patches like OOTP or even TDCB did. But when you look back at the messageboards during the release phases for each of those games, you find that they got hammered for not having those features as a part of the release build. If anything we're fortunate that with Jim's game coming out we had decided to delay the release, while the impulsive may just buy the first one out, many people will try both games and either buy both or buy the one they perceive as "better". This delay gives us the chance to ensure that the release build you try, is as good as possible, and gives us a better chance to have that "better" one for you. Letting people decide on something less then our best would cost us more sales with two new releases on the market, then the delay would.

Edit - some grammar changes... although other mistakes probably remain.

[Fritz]

ever get naked except for a newspaper wrapped around you like a bath towel and hula in your front yard?

this thread is like that

[Fido]

Originally posted by Fritz
ever get naked except for a newspaper wrapped around you like a bath towel and hula in your front yard?

Yeah...but Its ok...I had Subway for lunch...

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by mckerney


Maybe I'm just not understanding the Canadian logic here, but let me try and track the progression of this arguement. Someone claims to know the reason why threads on a message board were shut down in the past, so you then transfer this to being able to give the teams that will be in the Super Bowl and what the final score will be. Now, from someone claiming they know the reason for something in the past, you equate this with being able to tell what will happen in the future, when a better analogy would be him knowing what teams were in and what the scores were of previous Super Bowls, and even that logic would be very flawed. Then, you lead into with the semblance of correlation between being able to predict future events, something that nobody knows what will happen, to having the ability to read minds, and all that when it simply seems to be a matter of perception?

True, it was a bad comparison. I was trying to point out the fact that 44niners somehow knows how to read minds, my comparison didn't get at that at all.

Anyways... Scott has told everyone why the threads were locked. If you want to believe otherwise, thats up to you.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally posted by 44Niners
I for one am very disappointed with what is going on over at .400 studios.

to recap the last six months they have had:

1. the TDCB debacle
2. the breakup with Markus, who is one of the most respected and talented people in the sim-sports world
3. this latest push back on TPF - which isn't bad on its own, just the reasoning and logic is less then clear or IMO honest


Plus the tone over there is either be a fanboy or be flamed, constructive criticism is being dealt with by locking threads and excuses.

I really want to see .400 studios succeed not only because I enjoy sports-sim games but because I think the more competition the better the products become. I was very excited about TPF until the last few days and now am not so sure they are going to be able to put out a decent product.

Is this just a bump in the road or are they in serious trouble?

I'm new to this board here but I want to jump in with my two cents.

First let me introduce myself. My name is Gary and I'm developing Total Pro Basketball for .400. I take issue with the statement made above. I have never once asked for a thread in my TPB forum to be locked or deleted because it had an opinion that I did not agree with and I think its pretty safe to say that after getting to know the people who run .400 that they are all the same way. Nobody there is afraid of constructive criticisms - in fact we realize that we need to hear the criticisms in order to make the company better. However, the company doesn't benefit from name calling pissing matches between forum members on their company website. That stuff is fine for anyone's fan site but how does something like that help to make .400 a better company?

Secondly, can we let the TDCB thing go already? I wasn't a part of the company at the time but for goodness sake, is no company allowed to make a mistake? Did .400 not fix the problems? Did they not refund the money of those who wanted it? So what, they made a game with bugs that they consequently got a verbal thrashing for (and well deserved) and they took the steps to fix it. It was their first time through the process and they learned many valuable things from it and are determined NOT to repeat that again. Don't tell me that the earliest versions of some of the best games out there didn't come with bugs when they first started out. By all means the company deserved every verbal thrashing it got, at the time, but its over and done with and corrected so let it go.

Next, why should the split with Markus have anything to do with whether or not you buy TPF, TPB or anything else done by .400? I could understand if you're talking OOTP vs Total Pro Baseball (PureSim) but that's not what started this. Markus wasn't going to have anything to do with coding football, basketball, hockey or anything else. He's a heck of a developer and OOTP is a great game but what on earth does that have to do with how good Arlie, myself or anyone else is going to do with their games? The current people at .400 had a different vision and different goals than the people with OOTPDevelopments - its as simple as that. Both felt they would be better off on their own, working towards the goals they wanted.

Like Scott talked about, believe what you want to believe. Some people didn't and still don't believe the reasons behind the split in the first place - some people won't believe that TPF is being delayed in order to add more things. I'm not developing the game and I can't tell you if those additions are worth the delay but if Arlie and Joe and the beta team thinks they are then I'm sold. I do know that they quit their jobs and put everything on the line to form this company and that they're busting their butts to make it go but you know, its really, really tough to get a company going - especially when the company has no source of money coming in to sustain it.

You don't think they would love to get sales on TPF today? They could have released it on the 31st and left out some features and collected their money and said too bad, wait for next year and then plop down your $34.95 again for a very basic upgrade like most software companies do. Or maybe they should go the route of The Sims...release the game with lots of cool ideas on the side and then pump those ideas out in expansion packs for like $9.95 a pop. They made this call for YOU, the fans. They want to give you as much as possible in this edition. I know that explanation's not good enough for some people but why knock the company for it? Try it out and if you don't think its a good game, don't buy it or ask for a refund. At least Joe and Arlie had the guts to take a chance with it and try and cram as much into this game as possible when they could have very easily just rolled out what they have now. I think that shows the sign of a company that cares about its customers and wants them to feel that they got their money's worth from the product.

[Bonegavel]

Thank "The_Almighty" I'm not into basketball.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Gary Gorski [b]I'm new to this board here but I want to jump in with my two cents.

Okay, here's a little return on your investment.

Secondly, can we let the TDCB thing go already?

I'd say the answer would be "No" -- not at long as it's a part of the company track record, then it's fair game. And I can't help but mention that having a company representative tell customers, past, present, future, or potential, to "let it go" isn't the best p.r. move I've ever seen.

Next, why should the split with Markus have anything to do with whether or not you buy TPF, TPB or anything else done by .400?

Markus was, for better or worse, considered by a good many people to be the "head of the company". For those who have a great deal of confidence in him, his absence could very well impact the image of the company. Personally, it doesn't hurt my impression of .400 one bit, but I can see how it would affect others.

They could have released it on the 31st and left out some features and collected their money and said too bad, wait for next year and then plop down your $34.95 again for a very basic upgrade like most software companies do.

Yep, they sure could have. It would have likely been corporate suicide to do so, but they could have.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Fido
Yeah...but Its ok...I had Subway for lunch...

[Gary Gorski]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I can't help but mention that having a company representative tell customers, past, present, future, or potential, to "let it go" isn't the best p.r. move I've ever seen.

Hang on a second, nobody from .400 sent me over here to make my post. I'm not making some type of public press release here, I'm stating my opinion as a game player and prior customer of .400 as well as now getting to see it from the development side.

And I stated that .400 got the verbal thrashing they deserved at the time for TDCB. But few people are giving them credit for taking the time and effort to fix the problems and some people never even mention that they DID fix the problems. TDCB as it stands right now is a terrific game and they did everything possible to correct a mistake.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have called them out on the product or that any talk of the problems it had should be swept under the rug - I'm saying why can't everyone either just move on and see if they learned from their mistake or if you feel compelled to bring it up, at least bring up the fact that the problems were fixed. I'm just curious as to the obsession with bringing up TDCB all the time - it was a bad release, it took time to fix, the company spent the time to fix it, it works fine now and they learned what not to do. Seems like they "atoned" for the mistakes so why not give them another chance now?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Gary Gorski Hang on a second, nobody from .400 sent me over here to make my post. I'm not making some type of public press release here, I'm stating my opinion as a game player and prior customer of .400 as well as now getting to see it from the development side.

Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but ...

1) You're the lead designer for TPB, a project connected to .400 Software.

2) You chose to voice your opinion on a matter directly related to .400 Software in an open forum

3) You seem to think that you get to be somehow "separated" from the company you're working with/for.

I'm sorry Gary, but I don't think it works that way in real life.

When there's a connection between you & a company, your actions do indeed have the potential to reflect on the company.

And judging from your bio, I'm shocked that you don't seem to recognize that.

[Gary Gorski]

No I dont feel I am separated in any way from the company. I work with .400 Software Studios and I am damn proud of the company and the people who run it. That's why I made my post. I'm not afraid to say something to stick up for or defend the people who work there when I feel they are being unfairly criticized. I pointed out that I was not sent here by anyone - I made my post on my own accord.

And I will defend my words as needed. You tried to make it seem that .400 sent me over here to see if we can "sweep this little issue under the rug" when they neither did that nor did I say that should have happened.

I clearly stated that the company deserved the flack it got for the situation but that it was in the past and they resolved the problem and asked why people continue to harp on that issue. You were the one to make up the connection between my post and some idea about it trying to act like nothing ever happened. I simply wanted to know why some people still harp on it. That's it. Sorry to dissapoint you perhaps but there's no great news story, conspiracy or scandal to be made here.

[CamEdwards]

Gary,

Just stepping in as a neutral bystander, I think Jon's point was that whether or not .400 "sent you here", you're here now, and as you've publicly stated, you're associated with .400 Software Studious. Therefore anything you say will be reflected on the company as a whole.

Secondly, don't take the TDCB thing so personally. There are people that still rip on Sierra for their screwups, 3DO for ruining High Heat Baseball, and Jim for problems with FOF4. It happens. People don't "let it go", because they invest a lot in these sport sims. Not just money, but time and emotion. We want everyone to succeed, because we benefit from it. When our expectations aren't met, we're disappointed and a little apprehensive. It's not personal, it's just human nature.

Welcome to FOFC, by the way. Looking forward to seeing the game when it comes out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think Jon's point was that whether or not .400 "sent you here", you're here now, and as you've publicly stated, you're associated with .400 Software Studious. Therefore anything you say will be reflected on the company as a whole.

Once again, Cam understands exactly what I was saying.

Damn, I don't know which one of us that should worry more

[Marc Vaughan]

1) You're the lead designer for TPB, a project connected to .400 Software.

2) You chose to voice your opinion on a matter directly related to .400 Software in an open forum

3) You seem to think that you get to be somehow "separated" from the company you're working with/for.

Ok - as someone not associated with .400 I'd like to throw my tuppence into the hat.

I've spoken to some of the developers at .400 on and off over the last few years and played the majority of their previous games.

IMHO they have a very professional and talented team of people there and I see no reason why they couldn't go on to be very successful.

I believe they have learnt a lot from the release of TDCB and are unlikely to make similar mistakes in the future. All companies/people will at times make mistakes the important thing is to try and learn from them - this is something I believe .400 will do.

I for one will definitely be looking into purchasing their future games

(Grammar and Spelling mistakes courtesy of the English school system )

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Once again, Cam understands exactly what I was saying.

Damn, I don't know which one of us that should worry more

yeah, it's kind of a Dr. Evil/Mini-me symbiosis thing we've got going lately.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
yeah, it's kind of a Dr. Evil/Mini-me symbiosis thing we've got going lately.

Which one is Mini-me? CAM ZIP UP YOUR PANTS!

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Which one is Mini-me? CAM ZIP UP YOUR PANTS!

so you're saying Jon's dick is bigger than mine? You Georgia boyz sure do stick together.

This isn't one of those "squeal like a pig" relationships Georgia's famous for, is it?

[KWhit]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Gary,

Just stepping in as a neutral bystander, I think Jon's point was that whether or not .400 "sent you here", you're here now, and as you've publicly stated, you're associated with .400 Software Studious. Therefore anything you say will be reflected on the company as a whole.

Secondly, don't take the TDCB thing so personally. There are people that still rip on Sierra for their screwups, 3DO for ruining High Heat Baseball, and Jim for problems with FOF4. It happens. People don't "let it go", because they invest a lot in these sport sims. Not just money, but time and emotion. We want everyone to succeed, because we benefit from it. When our expectations aren't met, we're disappointed and a little apprehensive. It's not personal, it's just human nature.

Welcome to FOFC, by the way. Looking forward to seeing the game when it comes out.

Well said. I was going to post something very similar to that, but I doubt I could have done as good a job as this post did of summing up my feelings.

And I'd like to second the welcome, Gary.

[Gary Gorski]

Thank you for the welcome Cam and yes I agree that I am part of .400 so what I say will reflect on them. That is why I don't come on public forums and start flame wars or things like that.

But being a part of .400 doesn't preclude me from having an opinion and the leaders of .400 don't have a problem with me voicing my opinions so long as I do it in the manner that I do now. And I don't dispute the fact for a second that if me or any other member of .400 goes on a public forum and makes an ass out of himself going off on people and flaming them and such that it should reflect poorly on the company but there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to participate in the community and I want to be a participant - even if it means sometimes I have opinions that are different from others.

FWIW I know that I am a new guy when it comes to not only this community but the developing community as well and that I have to earn my stripes, which I am trying to do with TPB and by being an active member in not only the TPB and 400 forums but in other forums as well. I do hope that you guys will take someone like Marc's word for it though - I've spoken with him in the past and he is a great guy and of course, very well respected. .400 made mistakes in the past and as we settle in as a company we're going to make some mistakes but the important thing is that the people running the show know what happened last time, know what went wrong and know that they need to do things differently now to ensure that situation doesn't happen again.

That's my point and I'm sticking to it I just want everyone to give .400 another look if you weren't planning on it and to let everyone know, from someone who was both outside and now a part of the company, that things are different now and are improving every day and to not let the release of TDCB influence you too greatly in making your decision whether or not to at least check out TPF.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Sorry about this but welcome to the land of consumerism.

If I buy something and it's a clunker, I don't forget about it. It doesn't matter to me if its Microsoft, a Jim Gindin game or a Nissan (f Nissan by the way).

Do I forgive? Yes. This is not a monumental investment we are talking about here. (relatively speaking)

Do I forget? No.

In my opinion it is up to .400 Studios to prove me and only me wrong. I'm not buying it for anyone else.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Gary Gorski You tried to make it seem that .400 sent me over here to see if we can "sweep this little issue under the rug" when they neither did that nor did I say that should have happened.

When and/or where did I make any reference to anyone sending you anywhere? I was making the point that you're a part of .400 and when you speak, it reflects on .400.

asked why people continue to harp on that issue.

And I tried to answer that question. Don't blame me if you don't like the answer, you asked the f'n question. This isn't a particularly forgiving genre sometimes, deal with it.

You were the one to make up the connection between my post and some idea about it trying to act like nothing ever happened.

And again, I did that ... where?

Sorry to dissapoint you perhaps but there's no great news story, conspiracy or scandal to be made here.

Damn, I didn't even realize I was supposed to be looking for one. Maybe you've decided to lump my post in with some of the other content in the thread?

And from another post ...

And I don't dispute the fact for a second that if me or any other member of .400 goes on a public forum and makes an ass out of himself going off on people and flaming them and such that it should reflect poorly on the company

Well, we agree there

but there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to participate in the community

See your own words above for why that isn't always a good idea.

[Bee]

I got a question about the poll...

Was sliced bread really that great a thing? I much prefer bread that doesn't come sliced.

[Gary Gorski]

Jon, I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else. I look over my words very carefully - there's nothing I said that I should be embarrased or ashamed about or shouldn't have said. I'm not flaming anyone, using vulgar or derogatory language and not trying to pick a fight with anyone nor will I be dragged into one. You have your opinions, I have mine and that's ok.

Thank you to those of you who welcome me to your community here.

p.s. this poll needs more options

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Bee
I got a question about the poll...

Was sliced bread really that great a thing? I much prefer bread that doesn't come sliced.

And for us low-carbers, I suggest "...the greatest thing since Russell Stover's low-carb toffee squares."

[Bonegavel]

Gary, I still hold the Exploding Pinto against Ford and mention it whenever I can. On the other hand, it did provide for a good laugh in Top Secret! starring Val Kilmer.

[Ben E Lou]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I can't help but mention that having a company representative tell customers, past, present, future, or potential, to "let it go" isn't the best p.r. move I've ever seen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hang on a second, nobody from .400 sent me over here to make my post. I'm not making some type of public press release here, I'm stating my opinion as a game player and prior customer of .400 as well as now getting to see it from the development side.

Gary,

Gotta call you on this one. You came in and said, "let it go." Sorry to be blunt, but that's just silly. 400 has admitted that the TDCB release was done very poorly. Everyone knows that the TDCB release was done very poorly. It is something that the company is going to have to overcome and work past. Farrah, Arlie, Joe and Scott have all stated publicly at one time or another that they know they have to overcome the TDCB release.

Saying "let it go" makes you look silly, and then on top of that to try to distance yourself from being a representative of .400 is poor form. I'm not trying to pick a fight here (again, I'm a friggin' beta guy for TPF), but I gotta call a spade a spade here.

[Gary Gorski]

SkyDog,

I'm not distancing myself from anyone here and never did I say that the release wasn't done poorly. I said it was in the past and .400 corrected it and learned from it - why continue to harp on what a debacle it was. Why is it so hard to pick out what I am saying here, especially when I am repeating it over and over again?

Let me sum it up.

I am associated with .400 and damn proud of it.

The TDCB release was a disaster.

Joe, Arlie and company learned from their mistakes (I was not a part of .400 at the time)

Joe, Arlie and everyone else are committed to making sure that no future product 400 releases suffers from the same problems TDCB did.

TDCB was given the necessary attention and fixed and is now a wonderful game.

.400 made a mistake, as do all other people and companies - I would hope you can forgive the mistake based on their concern and desire to right the situation.

It is MY OPINION that everyone working for .400 has learned from the TDCB release debacle and is sorry about it and will not let it happen again and I hope that everyone can accept that and "let it go" - meaning a mistake was made, it was corrected and please give .400 another chance to prove that we produce A1, top-notch products.

This poll needed more options.

That is all.

[Scarecrow]

Not to throw gas on the fire....

I can't help it when I look at your list of 'additional enhancements' that are pushing back the release date and think to myself that TPF is/was headed down the same path as TDCB. Some of these items are vital to gameplay and not having them in a game scheduled to be released in 10 days makes me wonder what kind of product was coming out at the end of this month. For instance, these features weren't origianlly in the game???:

* Storing Career stats for retired players - TPF will store career stats for retired players that qualify a minimum standard for seasons and game played.

* Team and League Records - The top 10 for each record will be stored for each team and the league as a whole.

* Performance incentives and roster bonuses - Be creative with your contract negotiations with including performance incentives and roster bonuses in addition to salaries and signing bonuses. We have included both LTBE and non-LTBE incentives and voidables.

* Restricted Free Agents - Place tender offers on your RFAs. If they get signed away, you get compensatory draft picks or the chance to match the offer.

* HTML Reports from Every Screen - Send virtually any game screen to HTML. Every HTML page also includes a print button for easy printing. More than 20 different reports, from rosters and ratings to mock drafts and game previews.

* Complete Preseason - Carry over 70 players on your roster during the preseason, and make the tough decisions on roster spots as opening day approaches.

* Comprehensive City Database - Over 200 U.S. and international cities profiled for monthly weather data, city prestige, quality of living and fan support level. Moving your franchise from one city to another will have significant consequences on your fan support, your ability to attract free agents.

* Unique Team & Player Morale Modeling - Lesser teams with high morale will often overachieve while talented squads with malcontents will struggle. Almost everything you do in the game, from promising players' roles to how strenuous your practice schedules are will impact your team's morale (and their performance on the field). Player morale is also displayed visually in the player's photo.

* Built-In, Integrated Support for Online Leagues - Easily create and manage an online league for you and your friends to participate in. Everything you need for multiplayer leagues is built directly into the game.

* Franchise Relocation - Tired of Kansas City? Ready for the challenge of Los Angeles? Weigh the financial pros and cons of moving your team to another city.

* Comprehensive Weather System - Historical data from the National Weather Service powers gameday temperatures, humidity, wind speed and precipitation forecasts for all the cities in the game. Better rethink that passing attack if high winds are in the forecast!

* League Size Customization - The ability to use multiple customized league sizes for both single player and multiplayer games.

* Fantasy Draft - Start the league with a full fantasy draft for both single and multiplayer leagues.

[Ksyrup]

Scarecrow:

This has already been covered, probably in another thread. That press release was inaccurate, to the extent it suggested that the entire list contains "new" features. Some are new, some are existing that are being beefed up. But you are correct, that's what it says.

[Bee]

I think a lot of those features were already included, but just expanded.

edit: crap...kyjelly beat me to it.

[Bonegavel]

Scare, I think that list is things they were working on adding/or enhancing. Not everything was new, IIRC.

EDIT: Damn, beat to the punch by a flying insect and an oral medication put out by Chrysler.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Gary Gorski
It is MY OPINION that everyone working for .400 has learned from the TDCB release debacle and is sorry about it and will not let it happen again and I hope that everyone can accept that and "let it go" - meaning a mistake was made, it was corrected and please give .400 another chance to prove that we produce A1, top-notch products.

If you really think that the text sim community will "let it go" (which sounds like giving just about a free pass on it to me), you don't know your audience very well. There are a significant number of people who WILL wait to buy TPF, because of the TDCB debacle, and there's nothing you or I can say, or 400 can do, to change that. Frankly, if I weren't a beta tester, I would be one of them. The primary reason I volunteered for the beta is that I want as many solid text sims as possible out there, and I feared that .400 was in big trouble without OOTP.

[Ben E Lou]

Agreed. The press release was a bit misleading regarding what features were already planned and which ones were added. Give 'em a break on that though. They made the final decision Thursday night, then woke up Friday morning to the FOF2K4 announcement. If whoever wrote that release was a bit distracted, it is understandable.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by Gary Gorski
Secondly, can we let the TDCB thing go already? I wasn't a part of the company at the time but for goodness sake, is no company allowed to make a mistake? Did .400 not fix the problems? Did they not refund the money of those who wanted it? So what, they made a game with bugs that they consequently got a verbal thrashing for (and well deserved) and they took the steps to fix it. It was their first time through the process and they learned many valuable things from it and are determined NOT to repeat that again. Don't tell me that the earliest versions of some of the best games out there didn't come with bugs when they first started out. By all means the company deserved every verbal thrashing it got, at the time, but its over and done with and corrected so let it go.

It's the last thing that was released by the makers of TPF so why should it be 'let go'? There are new people that look over these boards and may not be aware of the trouble that the same design team had with their very last release. Shou;ld they not be given the benefit of knowing that history? If TPF is released without problems, then it will certainly be 'let go'.

Money back? Only to those who didn't purchase the game upon release and wait to see if things would be fixed in a timely manner (such as the MP console that was said to be coming out the week following the release, which turned into months). Anyone who decided to give the company the benefit of the doubt did not get their money back as they were told it was past the allowed time frame.


I'll reiterate it again. The company is not past that until the design team from TDCB proves themselves with their next release. Unless you want consumers to just be blindly loyal fanboys. This is an easy concept to grasp, if you buy a product from any company and find it unsatisfactory do you run out the next year and buy their very next product because you should 'let go' the fact that there were major problems with their very last product.

[Bee]

Gotta agree with others. No one is going to just let the TDCB debacle go. I think it's the only release under .400 Studios that the current developers have, so it's a pretty important bit of information. I also think there are some who are still somewhat disappointed with the game even after all the months of patching (myself included). There's a lot of potential there and it's a very pretty game, but a pretty screen isn't that important to me if the game isn't solid. That being said, I agree that people shouldn't give up on them or not try new versions or new games. I'm on record as saying I will buy TPF when it comes out. It has too much potential not to take the chance, but I can definitely understand other's reluctance to wait considering the previous release.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by SkyDog
If you really think that the text sim community will "let it go" (which sounds like giving just about a free pass on it to me), you don't know your audience very well. There are a significant number of people who WILL wait to buy TPF, because of the TDCB debacle, and there's nothing you or I can say, or 400 can do, to change that. Frankly, if I weren't a beta tester, I would be one of them. The primary reason I volunteered for the beta is that I want as many solid text sims as possible out there, and I feared that .400 was in big trouble without OOTP.

Ok, but to say that the delay in release is "just like TDCB" (like several here are doing) is ridiculous. This is the exact opposite of what they did on TDCB. Instead of getting credit for that, they again get slammed. I know there are people on message boards that are going to slam whatever you do, but that does not give a reason to point out when it is wrong.

I agree no one is going to "let it go" but at least bring it up when it is appropriate. (By the way, if anyone cares to remember, I was one of the chief voices to slam .400 when TDCB was released, to the point Joe came on here and slammed me. I am also fair enough to see that they did eventually come out with a decent product and give them credit for it).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Ok, but to say that the delay in release is "just like TDCB" (like several here are doing) is ridiculous. This is the exact opposite of what they did on TDCB. Instead of getting credit for that, they again get slammed.

Agreed, but the part I jumped in on had nothing to do with that point. I was referring to that specific portion of the debate.

[Buzzbee]

Scarecrow - I think the guys at .400 have covered this elsewhere, but the list of "new" features isn't really a list of "new" features. It is actually a list of "features that were in the game that we are improving based on beta feedback".

They just didn't do a very good job in presenting that fact initially.

{EDIT: Damn. Beat by KyJelly, Bee, Bonegavel, AND SkyDog. I took too long reading the rest of the thread.}

[markprior22]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Once again, Cam understands exactly what I was saying.

Damn, I don't know which one of us that should worry more

Probably because Cam tends to agree with your view on this.

I just can't believe the level of response (sometimes bordering on hateful) that come up concerning these games. I was not happy at all with the initial release of TDCB. I waited and waited for updates, etc until it reached a solid state. But it is OVER. I know, you know, the developers know...anyone who plays sports sims regularly knows what happened with TDCB. Will it always be a part of .400 history?...YES. Does it have to be discussed into the ground everytime a new game comes close to release? NO.

There has been alot of negative (what an understatement) reaction to a game that hasn't even been released. The answer is quite simple people. When TPF is released, if you are interested at all, give it a try. .400 has been very forthright about their 7 day return policy (and I've seen them extend this a long way for people who waited for patches and were still not satisfied). If you don't like it...get a refund.

The guys I've seen around .400 seem to be good, hard working people. At least two have quit full time jobs to undertake this. That takes some stones. Obviously, these guys want more than anything for this company to succeed. The best way to assure that is to put out quality products. .400 isn't like EA or Sega. Send them an PM or email and you will receive a personal response. They will listen to your questions/comments and do everything they can to achieve satisfaction. Eventually, the product must stand on its own. I believe that will happen with TPF.

I get tired of reading how .400 can't take criticism. That is so untrue, it's not even funny. These types of games have so many options available that everyone has different ideas of what should be included, how things should work etc. That, in itself, is responsible for abundant criticism on a daily basis. I think they handle it as well as possible. It is worth noting that they are there on a daily basis to deal with the criticism. That says alot.

I know the delayed release date probably aggravated quite a few people but I believe it will be worth it in the end.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by markprior22
I just can't believe the level of response (sometimes bordering on hateful) that come up concerning these games. I was not happy at all with the initial release of TDCB. I waited and waited for updates, etc until it reached a solid state. But it is OVER. I know, you know, the developers know...anyone who plays sports sims regularly knows what happened with TDCB. Will it always be a part of .400 history?...YES. Does it have to be discussed into the ground everytime a new game comes close to release? NO.

Where are you getting your reference of every time a new game is released? This is the next game from that team since the TDCB problem. If this is flawless, then the TDCB problem will be a thing of the past. It's an easy concept to understand. I'm getting tired of fanboys who act as if this problem was 5 years and 10 game releases ago.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just can't believe the level of response (sometimes bordering on hateful) that come up concerning these games.

No offense intended but if you really mean that ("just can't believe") then I don't think you know the genre very well. As I said earlier, it's not exactly an area where "forgive & forget" known as SOP. (FTR, I'm talking sports text-sims, not console games or anything else)

If I buy a car from a manufacturer & it's a lemon, I consider that when it's time to buy another car.

If I go to a restaurant & have a bad experience, I consider that when I choose where to have dinner.

Why would gaming choices be any different?

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by markprior22
Probably because Cam tends to agree with your view on this.

Mark,

Actually, if you read my statement, you'll see that I neither expressed approval nor disapproval of anything Jon said. I merely tried to clear up what I thought was some verbal muddiness.

I've worked with Joe and Arlie in the past on some projects, and I know the level of dedication and enthusiasm they have. Developing these games on the side as a hobby is quite different than developing these games as a full time business, and there's a learning curve that goes along with it. The promise of an in-depth sim engine coupled with a great visual experience is something that's been sorely lacking in the sports-sim field, which is why hope (not expectation) for these games is so high.

As far as taking Jon's side... I guess I agree that if you come on a message board an announce you're with a company, how you comport your self reflects on said company. I agree with the fact that we're all so passionate about sports sims that we're going to continue to feel let down when they don't meet our expectations. I'm not saying that's reasonable... I'm simply saying it's the truth.

Sorry, your statement just sounded like I was bashing .400, and I have no desire to do that. I just like to be realistic.

[Bonegavel]

Just because somebody quits their "day job" or has some "serious stones" (could be gall, better get 'em checked - they hurt) doesn't mean a thing. And being "nice guys" has nothing to do with it either. Hell, I'm a nice guy, but I'm not selling things that people want to buy (at least that I publicly admit).

I personally think that we should "fund" at least 2-3 versions of TPF to get some variety in the field. Jim and 400 can feed off of each other and hopefully create new things that can become "standard" features in the future, or, at the very least, get more people to buy the games to make them more money so they can make more games (Excel would be showing the blue dot for circular references right now).

But, I don't blame anyone that has purchased TDB their right to bitch "Perfect Storms"-worth of grief. You might find it annoying, but 'dems da facts. Seems like some people just want pop-up and defend 400studios when nothing needs defending.

NOT ONE THING THAT IS SAID HERE CAN AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF TPF. The only thing that can affect the outcome of TPF is 400studios. The onus is on them. I am waiting to download and play.

[Bonegavel]

dola,

oh, Wubba wubba wubba.

[Name The Source of that Quote #3]

[spleen1015]

The fact of the matter is, TDCB was the first game that Joe and Arlie have done together as .400. It is the only barometer folks have as far as .400 is concerned. People are going to be skeptical until they see something different.

The good thing about all of this is the fact the TDCB turn out to be a pretty decent game. So, we know a little that these guys can make a quality product. I have faith that TPF will be a decent game. The situation is totally different this time.