Wrestling Fans: Good Article On Batista And The Future Of The WWE

[Suicane75]

http://www.liveaudiowrestling.com/wo....asp?aID=12215

Gotta agree with just about every point he makes. Batista doesn't inherently strike me as someone to let carry the ball but he has made such strides in his character and is by far the most over guy on the roster right now, and that includes Randy Orton, that a real solid push could put him over the top.

[Noop]

Good Read.

[Maple Leafs]

The biggest risk -- which they mention in the article -- is that he's so huge that he'll have trouble staying healthy. His, um, training regime seems to lend itself to muscle tears.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

The biggest risk -- which they mention in the article -- is that he's so huge that he'll have trouble staying healthy. His, um, training regime seems to lend itself to muscle tears.

True, but ya gotta make money with him while ya can, at his age it could fall apart any time, so give him the ball and hope he can carry ya for a good 18 months, thats my opinion.

[condors]

I missed the memo that Benoit can't be the only reason to watch RAW (a little harsh but imho Benoit>anyone else i ever see on the show) Sorry it pains me to see Flair today, i don't care about Orton and HHH is overexposed more than a 2 dollar hooker. What they need to do is get 2 more faces and 2 more heels people will care about and not have every other segment be about HHH. I think they have the guys on the roster but they could use some writing that is about them not who will get the "rub" with HHH and put HHH over some more.

[condors]

Dola,

just wanted to add that HHH is a great talent its just he is being way overused. They should never have more than 3 segments about 1 guy and talk about him constantly during other peoples matches.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by condors

Dola,

just wanted to add that HHH is a great talent its just he is being way overused. They should never have more than 3 segments about 1 guy and talk about him constantly during other peoples matches.

Agreed, his need to be an "all-time legend" coupled with the fact that he's the bosses son means that as long as he wants, mean he will be the focal point unless Vince wakes up one day and realizes that HHH has pretty much ruined every up and comer on the roster and puts him in his place.

[TLK]

I heard a rumor last week that New Jack had signed with the WWF(e). If he starts appearing on television, the WWF will have won me back.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by TheLionKing

I heard a rumor last week that New Jack had signed with the WWF(e). If he starts appearing on television, the WWF will have won me back.

Actually


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He came to them with a proposal that it be revealed he was the one who stabbed Cena and not Carlito or Jesus, and they apparently were not sour on the idea, but he hasn't been signed yet.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I dunno ... given the past few years, I'm not sure WTH New Jack can do on television, since his schtick has been reduced to an even more one-note act than it was during his heyday. I mean, his appearances in Wildside are more speaking engagement than wrestling, and even on cable, he'll be reduced to pretty much "Hey {censored} {censored} {censored}, etc".

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I dunno ... given the past few years, I'm not sure WTH New Jack can do on television, since his schtick has been reduced to an even more one-note act than it was during his heyday. I mean, his appearances in Wildside are more speaking engagement than wrestling, and even on cable, he'll be reduced to pretty much "Hey {censored} {censored} {censored}, etc".

I agree with you, but i also think that he can give a pretty good hardcore, "street" promo, and Smackdown is taped on Tuesday so they can pretty much edit any promo he does. I think he can actually help get Cena over as a legit "hip hop/gangsta" as well as get him over the hardcore crowd, so i don't think it's an altogether bad idea. Of course it could end up being very wretched as well.

[DeToxRox]

Captain Charisma should get pushed to the moon.

And bring back old school WCW Chris Jericho when he was the cruiserweight champ. He was amazing.

"Dean Malenko, I want my Loverboy CD back!"

AND I ALSO WANT NORMAN SMILEY!

Thats all

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Captain Charisma should get pushed to the moon.

And bring back old school WCW Chris Jericho when he was the cruiserweight champ. He was amazing.

"Dean Malenko, I want my Loverboy CD back!"

AND I ALSO WANT NORMAN SMILEY!

Thats all

Move #203..........armbar.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Move #203..........armbar.

Haha, man I missed those moments.

Chris Jericho and Ralphus getting lost going to the ring, lmao. I was such a fan.

[JonInMiddleGA]

CW champ Jericho was among the top non-shoot mic highlights of the entire decade.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

CW champ Jericho was among the top non-shoot mic highlights of the entire decade.

Agreed. He made 2 fueds, 1 with Goldberg and 1 with Malenko, great........without any participation from the other guy, simply amazing.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Haha, man I missed those moments.

Chris Jericho and Ralphus getting lost going to the ring, lmao. I was such a fan.

The "fireworks" during his Goldberg entrance were priceless...

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

The "fireworks" during his Goldberg entrance were priceless...

Haha, oh man. I loved everything Jericho did during that angle.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Agreed. He made 2 fueds, 1 with Goldberg and 1 with Malenko, great........without any participation from the other guy, simply amazing.

I loved the collection of things he had from guys he beat. Rey's mask, that prosthetic leg, etc.

He was seriously the best thing WCW had.

[condors]

Jericho the guy is great in and out of the ring

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by condors

Jericho the guy is great in and out of the bed

wOw?!

[TLK]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Actually


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He came to them with a proposal that it be revealed he was the one who stabbed Cena and not Carlito or Jesus, and they apparently were not sour on the idea, but he hasn't been signed yet.

from the DVDVR board....

At the IWA-MS show tonight in Highland, IN, New Jack announced that he has, in fact, signed with WWE. He also announced something along the lines of expecting it to last all of about 2 weeks once they realize what they've gotten themselves into. That may be a little on the high side.

New Jack appeared to be - how can I be delicate about this? - still ringing in the new year. So, who knows if its true. But he did explicitly make the claim.

As I left at the start of his "match" (poking people with sticks is not my cup of tea), I cannot report on if he in fact murdered anyone tonight.

oh how I hope this is true.....

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by TheLionKing

from the DVDVR board....


oh how I hope this is true.....

Well, if it is true, Smackdown will have at least 1 more viewer than theyve had since the days of the Smackdown 6.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm just telling ya ... the New Jack of ECW heyday ain't the one the WWE is going to have (if this happens at all). Set your expectations accordingly.

[SirFozzie]

Hey, you hang out at DVDVR TLK?

Small World

[Flasch186]

proposal to win a ton of fans back:

Ted Dibiase's son begins to secretly buy wrestlers and slowly, THAT is the key and what Vince fails to realize - that only time can help a character arc, very slowly. Envelopes full of cash begin to get delivered to wrestlers at opportunistic times and then one night at a huge payperview have the Titan Tron show a 1000 dollar bill with a shadowed head in the middle and then, a flash, and Ted Dibiase's son (which is slowly hinted towards) comes to the stage.......WHY IS THIS ONE OF THE WAYS TO SAVE THE WWE?

It involves money, a challenge to Vince, betrayal, and MOST importantly GANG warfare. it will harken back to EVERY time the WWE or WCW was at its peak....when it was one huge gang versus another, DX, NWO, etc. Until you have a starting block like that it is simply too confusing and discombobulating to try and care about who hates who and why.

[Flasch186]

DOLA:

BTW plug in any names in the above and change the background but if it doesnt have time to build, Months, perhaps 6, and gang warfare, and a challenge to Vince itll \fail like every other storyline they propose.

ie. SCSA's discovery of the Undertaker and Vince's plot a long time ago....that took 6-8 months to develop before SCSA saved Stephanie. THAT is patience, and the necessary writing for wrestling.

[condors]

the problem with slow that can happen is injuries to one of the workers and in the past the story is either forgotten or someone fills in and it doesn't make sense.

I believe that the actual wrestling matches could be improved greatly. RAW and Smackdown etc should not just be commercials for the PPV. They need more surprise finishes not an upset once every 6 months. I don't watch as much as i did back in the day but it takes me all of 20 seconds to figure out who is going to win. First off CCC he aint cool if he has to tell everyone he is. He spits his apple on people and nobody takes him to the cleaners? He is a walking picture of everything that is wrong with the WWE imho. IF he can wrestle a good match i missed it. He gets alot of airtime and doesn't do anything but try to put himself over. It may be going back a ways but Bob Backland (SP) used to be on wrestling shows and was able to put anyone over and make them look good. Then wrestle them in a match and make them look good. Many of his matches ended and you would say i can't wait for the rematch. The man was champion for a long time and it always seemed he was going to lose his title wether is was Sgt Slaughter, Iron Shiek, Jimmy Snuka, Greg Valentine etc etc etc. Backland helped create a roster of main event heels who could then put over other faces and build them up. It was a whole chain reaction effect. You would go to the monthly matches and you never knew who would win (Savage may lose in Philadelphia but win in New York etc). I don't think Backland was better than Flair in his prime but Flair would put guys over drop the title but always had the horseman to get the job done in the end. You don't become 15 time champion if you refuse the put anyone over.

[condors]

New Jack of ECW was not a great wrestler but he would put on a good show. Jumping off scaffling or a balcony 20 foot high ladder. Using every foreign object imaginable. Unless the WWE plans on letting someone other than Cena fight New Jack it will not be pretty to watch (as i doubt very highly Cena will subject himself to what New Jack did to get over, and if New Jack is just a foul mouth who can't hit a single high spot then what does that actually do for Cena?) Tommy Dreamer, Raven, Sabu, Mick Foley and the like are guys who could put on a great show with New Jack and i doubt any of the guys who are still employed by the WWE are in any rush to get their body mangled by New Jack so he can get squashed by Cena.

[Ragone]

Whoever wrestles against new jack.. better not let him use a blade or anything on them.. thats for damn sure

[Sharpieman]

The weird thing is that once the WCW was bought out, the WWE has been going downhill ever since. Its lost its edge as a more hardcore type of program. They need to bring that edge back somehow or its going to be soft forever.

[Ragone]

I watched that tna show on fox.. its actually fairly interesting.. even though i cannot stand mike tenay

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

The weird thing is that once the WCW was bought out, the WWE has been going downhill ever since. Its lost its edge as a more hardcore type of program. They need to bring that edge back somehow or its going to be soft forever.

I thought I read some rumours about aa ECW show (like.. instead of Sunday Night Heat) being talked about. The DVD has sold really well for WWE, so maybe it's not too far-fetched?

[SirFozzie]

they are thinking about doing a ECW PPV (or a PPV with ECW guys), in a few months

[TLK]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

they are thinking about doing a ECW PPV (or a PPV with ECW guys), in a few months

booked by McMahon & company, which won't include Heyman....

[Flasch186]

regardless, if they dont allow for a HUGE character arc that takes months to occur no one will care when someone switches sides. It is a basic of writing a character that to have him be an ultimate evil, he must be the ultimate good (or vice versa)....If someone is only luke warm evil, than when he switches to be good, the response will be the equivalent luke warm from the audience. I site, the flips from the Undertaker, SCSA, the Rock, etc. Their turns took months on end before occurring but when they did the results were enormous pops and fans were plentiful. Right now fans are not plentiful and the company is struggling to find an identity. To do this, the ONLY way to start off, is to have a money/management challenge to Vince (not his wife), a war between good and evil, Red vs. Black, etc. and then you can ubild from there....until they realize this and allow for patience and fermentation itll flop just like his has over the past 3 years or in essence ever since the WCW takeover.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by TheLionKing

booked by McMahon & company, which won't include Heyman....

Hooray! This has awesome written all over it!

[duckman]

From what I've read on the internet, Heyman's contract will not be renewed.

[TLK]

I read today that the ECW DVD is third highest selling DVD in the history of the WWE. They're also talking about writing a book about the company. Still amazes me that they (ECW) went out of business.

[condors]

Heyman's contract not getting renewed would be the dumbest thing vince has ever done. Heaven forbid Ted Turner makes a phone call and get him to run a wrestling promotion. What he did in ECW with limited staff and funds was amazing, having a weekly tv show that delivered week after week. I would be very surprised if Vince let Heyman do anything but sit at home for the forseeable future. I was amazed to see star after star leave ECW to join WWF or WCW and low and behold they still would have the best show that week

[HornedFrog Purple]

I got the ECW DVD. The bummer is New Jack is in it for about 2.5 seconds.

i'll give him 10 days before he is fired.

My favorite non-shoot stuff in the last 10-12 years:

Mick Foley when he was going from ECW to WWF to ECW. His time on the mic was priceless.

Chris Jericho at WCW basically his whole time there.

Steve Austin vs Mcmahon. The early part of this feud was great.

Ric Flair just being Ric Flair

When Hogan turned into a bad guy. I remember watching this PPV and being completely shocked.

Raven vs Tommy Dreamer (the first feud). Paul Heyman shows his true genius as a writer here. Stuff that had never even been tried before. This was the peak of Raven. The Raven of later years is a shell compared to this one.

The Dudley clan. Priceless.

[TLK]

and an update on our buddy New Jack, from PWTorch:

Although most have dismissed New Jack's claims that he inked a WWE deal, sources remain open to the possibility that he is being honest.

He originally pitched an idea to be revealed as the true John Cena attacker, but it now seems, from what he is telling friends, he expects to portray a bodyguard character for Hassan and Daivari.

In his in-ring workout last week, New Jack did not make any new fans with his wrestling talent. However, he cut demo promos backstage that were said to simply blow Shane McMahon away.

[condors]

i don't get it, he can cut a promo, he is not capable of a good match, IF there is a Cena vs New Jack i am 99% sure i will say what the f was vince thinking here. If the WWE took him in and got some people to work on his in ring ability and got it to a point where he could wrestle a match and make his oppenent look good maybe at some point due to his ability on the mic he could get over and then some guys could make him look good. That is a serious time investment for someone who isn't a 18-22 year old newcomer with a bright future ahead of them. Lets not forget it isn't like he has a squeaky clean record outside of the ring. He is not a guy i would invest in plain and simple.

[Suicane75]

New Jack can do one thing for Cena that no one on the roster can do, legitamize his gimmick. Cena will never be the next big thing when his prime fan base is 12 year old boys who like to act thug. In order for Cena to get over to the point where they need him to be they need to do 1 of 2 things, either have him go over Undertaker or Angle in a match that is both good and meaningfull or 2, get his personality so over that he blows the roof off the place the moment his music hits.

My problem with a face Cena is that it's a funny, watered down version of his original heel gimmick, and it comes across more often than not as corny rather than thug.

I'm not saying that I would use New Jack, but if I did it would be 1 way, have him come out and destroy Cena, and not WWE style either, ECW style, with graters, chairs, tables, etc..., then have him do the same thing to countless jobbers until WM, then bring Cena back, and this is the key, have him destroy New Jack in the same exact fashion, and heres the beauty of it, New Jack will take that 30 foot fall through a table and he'll take that stick to the forehead and he'll take his paycheck and be happy. If you're gonna use New Jack to get Cena over, thats the way to do it.



Now, as far as the other angle, I think he would be the perfect guy to put with Davari. He's black, he's millitant, and he can cut an excellent promo, what better guy to put with the disgruntled Arab than the disgruntled black guy. Will the matches be any good? Hell no. But the heat generated if they let him cut loose will be something sorely missing from the WWE in the last few years, and more importantly, it's a gimmick that can draw money from both sides because of how it's layered, while being a "heel" they would also essentially be speaking the truth, which appeals to both sides of the argument from a purchasing perspective and makes it much easier to turn them when the time is right.

[Flasch186]

someone must assume that Cena is going to play this thug image for life....um, I havnt watched wrestling for awhile but after 1 months of absence Ive seen all sort of switches. He could come back as the squeaky clean - anti gang guy, i mean there are so many options. It is simply the following that kills WWE storylines so that people stop watching, NO CHARACTER ARC OR MINIMAL so when someone switches no one cares, NO PATIENCE so when a switch or swerve happens after 2 weeks there hasnt been an audience emotional buy in to make them care. Until that changes and they understand the importance of these two essential elements of writing they'll get no where. throughout WWE histroy the best stories took many many months to develop, thats what they need.

[Suicane75]

Flasch, that just isn't gonna happen in todays day and age, you can't build things like you could 10 years ago.

There problem is twofold,
1) Homogenized wrestling style, every match is essentially the same, with whatever wrestlers 4 or 5 key moves thrown in.

2) Horrid writing. Smackdown is the main culprit right now but it goes back and forth.


If you look at Batista, as the article in the first post states, he got over not because they pushed him to get over, but because the fans got behind him, the opposite is true of Randy Orton, they pushed him like a madman for a year, and the fans arn't buying it.

In a sense you're correct about the build, because the Batista turn has been a simmer for about 6 weeks now, but it's already time to pull the trigger or it will have passed them by. He needs to go over HHH at Wrestlemania or it will all be for naught, which is where the writing comes in.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Flasch, that just isn't gonna happen in todays day and age, you can't build things like you could 10 years ago.

There problem is twofold,
1) Homogenized wrestling style, every match is essentially the same, with whatever wrestlers 4 or 5 key moves thrown in.

2) Horrid writing. Smackdown is the main culprit right now but it goes back and forth.


If you look at Batista, as the article in the first post states, he got over not because they pushed him to get over, but because the fans got behind him, the opposite is true of Randy Orton, they pushed him like a madman for a year, and the fans arn't buying it.

In a sense you're correct about the build, because the Batista turn has been a simmer for about 6 weeks now, but it's already time to pull the trigger or it will have passed them by. He needs to go over HHH at Wrestlemania or it will all be for naught, which is where the writing comes in.

Wrestling isnt about the wrestling anymore, except in exceptional matches (Benoit). The story can have small twists and turns ie. SCSA, first with Undertaker, than Save steph, then Mcmahon, etc. but the story has to slowly roll forward to allow the audience to get emotionally involved. If they dont grasp that concept, then they'll continue to have luke warm responses. Its like a rubberband, if you pull it soooo far one way then the explosion the other way will be huge. If you barely pull it you cant expect it to realistically explode the other (hogans turn is a good example, the Rock's turns usually are this way with some exceptions). Luke warm is what they usually get because they are simply too impatient and dont understand the psychology of the story and how it relates to an audience.

[jeronemitchell]

Wrestling hasn't been about wrestling for quite a long time. I believe that somewhere in the wrestling bible ("Have A Nice Day", by Mick Foley), Mick cites how Undertaker does a top rope plancha once a year (being EXTRODINARILY generous, even at that time), but he's far more over than TAKA Michinoku, who did it every night, ever wished he could have been. More than even, it's about getting the crowd into the character... once the crowd is into the character, the crowd will pop for even the least damaging looking flashy version of an elbow drop (sound familiar)?

[albionmoonlight]

Bring back tag teams. Not two guys who have nothing in common vs. two guys who have nothing in common just to set up a PPV. But real teams that work together for a while and have an identity and get to be known as a unit. I miss that.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Bring back tag teams. Not two guys who have nothing in common vs. two guys who have nothing in common just to set up a PPV. But real teams that work together for a while and have an identity and get to be known as a unit. I miss that.

This is one of the reasons I try to catch some TNA shows/PPVs. America's Most Wanted is the best tag team right now (at least in WWE and TNA), and they also have some other tag teams that have been together for a bit (like Team Canada). Watching tag teams actually do good double-teaming moves is something that I miss a lot.

I thought that the last straw for the tag teams in WWE was the break-up of Haas and Benjamin. What the hell was the purpose of that? Were they really that well recognized that the WWE thought they could pull off singles careers? Sure, Benjamin is doing OK as a singles wrestler, but Haas just sucks (ie. isn't over). Stupid WWE.