WW CXXXIX - The Red Death II - GAME OVER, SERVANTS WIN

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

What day did Bug say he scanned Mauboy? Because the only reason he got a pass for his Day 3 vote, and wasn't lumped in with RA, Chief and EF, was because of the scan.

I'll go back and find that post since it concerns me also, I remember he scanned me N1, think mau was N2.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

No, my point is if Mauboy had counterrevealed, we would have known Narc was lying and not lynched Bug. We might have then lost one of them that night or the next night, but part of the reason we lynched Bug was that no one countered Narcizo.

That's true. But on the other hand even people who thought bug was the real seer were also thinking he might have been converted by the time that lynch happened. It was a clusterf*ck.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I'll go back and find that post since it concerns me also, I remember he scanned me N1, think mau was N2.

He said his first two scans happened both N2 I think.

[J23]

vote nightfall

[Chief Rum]

Remember when EF said he was "a detective"? Not The Detective?

I hit him on that at the time, too, like did he know there were other detectives, and that's why he said "a detective". And then sure enough SnDvls shows up, another detective.

This is after the whole "convert" thing, too, remember? It didn't make sense that EF as a Detective could tell that "Bug" (later Narc) was a convert. I argued endlessly about that; I forget who was arguing that point at the time.

It seems obvious to me now that EF said "a detective" because the wolves (along with EF) figured there would be a real Detective out there, and they were preparing for his reveal by saying "a detective" and hoping to slide on Abe's more than one of each role line.

If you're actually the Detective, why would you guess there is another detective? You wouldn't--you would assume you're the only one. You would say The Detective. No one would say "a detective" unless they KNEW there was another detective. How would EF know? Only way is if he assumed the role existed and he was claiming that role.

No, I am pretty confident now EF is a wolf, and was never a detective at all. He also did not see a conversion. He made that crap up to cover the fact that he misspoke in his original reveal, saying "convert" instead of wolf.

[Chief Rum]

VOTE NIGHTFALL

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Jackal - Good
Danny - Good
Mauboy - Good

There, I said it. I'm the Seer

He later confirmed that was the order he scanned us in, so me N1, Danny N2, mau N3.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Autumn

He said his first two scans happened both N2 I think.

Oh that's right he did say that, which was weird, and another thing pinging people.

So I guess me and Danny N2, mau N3?

[Chief Rum]

BTW, mau, forgive me if you already explained this. Why did you choose to hold off revealing when Narc "revealed" as sheriff again?

Also, could someone please check the vote count, just to be sure mau's vote is consistent with going after Narc after his reveal?

[The Jackal]

vote nightfall

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Oh that's right he did say that, which was weird, and another thing pinging people.

So I guess me and Danny N2, mau N3?

I think so, yes. I know Danny was #2 and that you were #1. And I think mau was a scan, so he would have been N3.

[dubb93]

Mau did not vote Narc he voted Bug, EF, then back to Bug. I don't believe you Mau. Why did you vote everyone but the one guy you knew was not telling the truth in that threesome.

I will have to back and check the actual posts but your votes tell a different story than you are right now.

[dubb93]

Vote EF

[J23]

Good catch Dubb/CR. I don't see why he'd vote for the revealed seer that said the person claiming his role was a wolf, no matter how odd the seer might have been acting.

[Autumn]

mckerney votes EF 3030
commo votes EF 3039
thomkal votes EF 3046
thomkal votes nightfall 3046
jackal votes EF 3049
J23 votes EF 3053
chief votes EF 3057
chief votes nightfall 3057
autumn votes EF 3059
autumn votes nightfall 3059
jakcal votes nightfall 3063
mauboy votes autumn 3070
chief unvotes nightfall 3079
jakcal unvotes nightfall 3081
J23 votes nightfall 3104
chief votes nightfall 3105
jackal votes nightfall 3110
dubb votes EF 3113

8 EagleFan - mckerney, commo, thomkal, jackal, J23, chief, autumn, dubb
1 autumn - mauboy

5 nightfall - thomkal, autumn, j23, chief, jackal

[dubb93]

Vote nightfall

[dubb93]

What is about to follow is every post from Mauboy on the day of and night following the EF/Narc/Bug cluster. Mauboy claims to have known that Narc was not telling the truth which should have pointed him towards voting Narc without question. That would have also told him Bug was telling the truth about Narc, although to be fair given him no read on EF. Here we go, for the record I haven't re read these yet I'm just putting them here, posting, then we can discuss.

ay Begins:

Holy schnikies did I miss a boat load. I have been reading the thread for a half hour now and I have gone from some confusion to lots of confusion to wtf.

The timing of all this is nuts. I was 100% believing bug through the majority of my reading. Ef sounds solid. Narcizo sounds solid. Bug sounds pissed that he got converted last night. The mentality has changed completely.

Sorry bug...going w my gut and believing ef.

vote bug

I think tonight is going to be so telling depending who gets nk'd.

Mind boggling day of werewolf.

He's obviously enjoying it. Not sure what to take from it tbh. Lol

Unvote bug
Vote ef

My head is spinning

I'd venture to guess bug could still be bad and this is all one big hoax concocted by sndvls. I don't know what to do.

Can't narc bg him? Which of course then means narc may die tonight. he has a heckuva decision tonight.

OK true that. So with all this movement since he left I worry he didn't catch all the action. I'm guessing he's protecting himself anyway. I just hope he's not protecting ef if he is the Lynch. I guess that is what conditionals are for.

Aye aye aye.

I should be around a bit more tonight than other night this week.

Add in that EF hasn't come back and tried to help make sense of this.

Sheeeeeeeeiiiit

Well, if Bug is convinced EF is also a wolf, he'll be moving there I assume.

That leaves us with a tie and a huge conundrum. Do we kill them both due to the craziness of it all?

Well, if we're revealing, I may as well....

"I'M MY OWN GRANDPA!"

Killing both would work for me to be honest. If they're good, they both get a shot at living through the flames. It settles any worries of killing one and being bad and giving the other the benefit of the doubt down the road.

And I do believe we have a bad one out of the two, for sure. And I sure wouldn't be surprised if both were bad. MY mind has been twisted back and forth today in this topic it hurts my head to think about.

considering they won't kill themselves by taking their vote off the other, assuming bug eventually moves over.

Ehhhh...sigh... extra votes.

It's funny to talk about lynching your seer potentially.. sad, sad.

So, to lynch EF, a possible detective who gave good information, was believable, changed the vote in a hurry.

To lynch bug, who says Narc is bad, but is/was our seer.

To lynch, Narc, potentially our BG.

This is nuts.

unvote ef
vote bug

This whole thing today was messed up...Not sure what to do honestly.

Jinx, Autumn!

Does someone have a list of all the people that have revealed their roles?

lolol

I was thinking the same thing.

eadline but no result yet:

Ah, what better way to spend my friday night

Fuck. If he's serious.

Bug was on quite a bit earlier this afternoon, I didn't think he was helping his situation all too much then. Perhaps it would have been different if it was hashed out again.

If true though, I guess we can be glad we can get Narc/EF tomorrow.

:Bug is lynched:

lol

[dubb93]

The "lol" after bug was lynched is not in reference to the lynching, it is EF's new reveal.

[dubb93]

I see nothing there that points to Mau being the BG. In face he openly questions the logic to potentially lynching our BG.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by Autumn

All I see here is that Mau's reveal shows us that EF was absolutely lying. If Narc was never the sheriff then EF did not see Narc getting converted, which means EF's story has nothing to it. Unless we now want to assume that Narc was another role, which was converted night four, and EF saw that. I don't know, people seem willing to bend awfully far to give credence to EF's story. We lynch people over way less than this.

Narc voted himself rather than EF. If EF is not a wolf, then Narc must just be the last wolf and wanted the game over? I mean what possible explanation is there for that?

That is not true, they have no correlation to each other. If anything it makes EF look better because one of the things we were skeptical of is if Narc was the Sheriff why didn't EF see him BG anyone. It makes sense he wouldn't see him BG because he was never the BG.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Bringing it back to this page so we can look it over, and it does sound more likely this was an original role. Doesn't really sound like a "minor undead".

I think it could be minor like Gramm said before death, I think the seduce was just to get three votes.

[The Jackal]

yeah mau you're gonna have to go ahead and explain your posting the day of those reveals.. even if you were trying to play it cool and not tip yourself to being the sheriff, you really thought it was a good idea to say narc's reveal "sounded solid"?

[Chief Rum]

Heh...if mau is the Sheriff, he REALLY sold it to stay hidden. And let the seer twist in the mean time, because he would have known Bug was telling the truth about Narc.

Okay, so looks like we have our lynch target for tomorrow, too.

Or do we want to try to do a tie again?

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I really think it was EF's reveal and the confusion around it that led us to lynch bug. Also bug played it a little sly, and people noticed enough strangeness there that they weren't convinced he was the seer. And this is why most of us have said we need EF out.

While bug was sly, it was definitely the combo of Sheriff and Detective that put him on the lynching block for me. If I'd have known Narc was not the sheriff I would have stayed on him, then probably voted EF yesterday.

[mauchow]

I was debating all day whether I would reveal or not. The bug thing regardless was a big clusterfuck. I wanted to keep my role hidden and didn't want to make it obvious that I was the sheriff by jumping on narc.

I'd have to look back but at some point someone said that we should vote narc because of some reason... I agreed to it rather than say it myself. But it was too late to create traction on him.

The way bug was acting just kept making me hesitant to reveal and make me come out like the wolves wanted.

I wish I could be more detailed but I'm on my phone.

[mauchow]

I sold it real good because I didn't want to be nkd. Isn't that the point? So I can protect someone other than myself?

[Chief Rum]

Okay, but Bug==acting weird, "maybe" not the seer
Narc==claiming Sheriff/I'm the Sheriff!/narc is lying, definite wolf

You chose to protect a definite wolf Narc over a possible wolf, but possible seer Bug.

This makes no sense.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

I sold it real good because I didn't want to be nkd. Isn't that the point? So I can protect someone other than myself?

The only person more important to protect than you in that scenario was the one you let get lynched that day.

[mauchow]

As a wolf when has a fake reveal worked for me.. Never , so screw that. If I'm a Lynch target then that's a joke.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

I sold it real good because I didn't want to be nkd. Isn't that the point? So I can protect someone other than myself?

But you are nearly as responsible for us losing the seer as EF and Narc were. Many people, myself included killed the seer b/c it was 2 against 1. In nearly every case the wolf is the 1, 2 usually just don't give themselves up like that. Had you admitted what you were, or atleast not feed the villager with garbage like "Narc sounds solid" and "Potentially lynching your BG" we may have came to a different conclusion that day.

[dubb93]

It would take a leap of faith in the vain of EF=villager to make me believe Mau's reveal at this point.

I think Narc was the BG and the wolves plan was to feed into that today and try and get Mau in the COT. A desperate play for what I can only assume is a dire situation for them.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

I sold it real good because I didn't want to be nkd. Isn't that the point? So I can protect someone other than myself?

My big problem is if you sold it, then why didn't you protect SnDvls that night? My understanding you thought Hoops was also a BG, if that is so he could protect himself as you can, so why not save the next most important role that revealed.

[mauchow]

Yeah. I fucked up. I was convinced bug was converted.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dubb93

It would take a leap of faith in the vain of EF=villager to make me believe Mau's reveal at this point.

I think Narc was the BG and the wolves plan was to feed into that today and try and get Mau in the COT. A desperate play for what I can only assume is a dire situation for them.

Agreed. Or, very unlikely but possible, there really is still a Sheriff out there, and they are still trying to draw him out. Which would make me wonder just how many wolves we have left. But it would explain them role hunting last night instead of coming after myself or mckerney.

[Commo_Soldier]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Agreed. Or, very unlikely but possible, there really is still a Sheriff out there, and they are still trying to draw him out. Which would make me wonder just how many wolves we have left. But it would explain them role hunting last night instead of coming after myself or mckerney.

I see no reason for them to go after McKerney, he is roled, but to be a Martyr is kind of a weak role.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Yeah. I fucked up. I was convinced bug was converted.

But Bug fingered Narc. And you knew he was telling the truth about that.

If you were certain Bug was a wolf, how did you reconcile that with the fact you just saw this "wolf" throw another wolf under the bus?

[mauchow]

Me not protection snacks was my mistake for not being around at deadline to get a feel what was happening in thread. I put a dayfall into Abe and then early afternoon I asked Abe if I could still change my order despite voting dayfall. I never put a conditional in and he didn't get back to me before deadline. I would have moved onto him too...

[mauchow]

Snacks sndvls

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

I see no reason for them to go after McKerney, he is roled, but to be a Martyr is kind of a weak role.

The role may not be compelling, but he's pretty much a cleared villager at this point, unless he has been converted (which actually is something to consider).

I can see why they would avoid me and my gadgets. They can't afford to not have a NK or to risk being revealed going for a NK on me.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

Snacks sndvls

So you admit it was you?

[mauchow]

unvote. Autumn
vote ef
Vote nightfall

Let's get it out of the way. I'm protecting myself and checking out for now. I'll stop in later. I'm not going to sit here and argue about how shitty a move I made. Sorry. Lynch me tomorrow. Hopefully mckerney saves me.

[mauchow]

I'll actually let the wolves have me tonight if they'd like. I'm going to protect the vilage. They know I'm a Lynch possibility so there is no chance they'll come after me tonight.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, we only need an EF vote from hoopsguy to be unanimous on EF outside of EF himself.

For nigthfall to happen, we also need hoops, and Commo and mckerney to vote nightfall. Again assuming this happens without EF's intervention.

Come on people, let's wrap this up, so we can start the next day.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

That is not true, they have no correlation to each other. If anything it makes EF look better because one of the things we were skeptical of is if Narc was the Sheriff why didn't EF see him BG anyone. It makes sense he wouldn't see him BG because he was never the BG.

?

I don't think there's "no correlation". EF claimed to see narc getting converted. So you feel he truly was converted, but was some other role? If so, you believe Mauboy's claim? Or you think there's another sheriff out there somewhere?

And none of this explains why Narc would vote himself over EF, if EF is good.

I can't imagine that both Commo and Mauboy are bad, though I guess it's possible, 6 wolves, maybe 2 or 3 converts there. But these guys are working pretty hard to paint EF as good against all odds. Or in Mauboy's case, paint himself good and give no real reason why he didn't want to vote him.

[mauchow]

All I was trying to do was slow the day down w my reveal. Talk things through. I still don't think wolves do a double fake reveal on the same day. That's my only thought on the situation.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

All I was trying to do was slow the day down w my reveal. Talk things through. I still don't think wolves do a double fake reveal on the same day. That's my only thought on the situation.

Okay, but if you...

A) Accept the theorem that wolves do not do a double fake reveal; AND
B) Know that Narc is lying, and so is a wolf; THEN

C) Bug must be telling the truth i.e. he is the seer

If what you're saying here is true, you should have been nailing Narc to the wall, even if you decide to not reveal.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I'm still just wondering why Narc wouldn't have left his vote on EF to force us to lynch Narc today instead of yesterday.

And the only reason that comes to mind is that EF is another wolf and he was hoping we'd move away from that today. I'd love to hear some alternate theories .. if EF is in fact not a wolf I don't see the benefit for the wolves for us lynching him today instead of yesterday.

Yep, if EF is a Detective - even one that is neutralized for actions for the next day - I would still think they would prefer to take him out yesterday and give Narc the option to use a power (he couldn't kill, assuming he wasn't last one standing) rather than get cute and have something come up which might give us a reason to spare the Detective.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Mau did not vote Narc he voted Bug, EF, then back to Bug. I don't believe you Mau. Why did you vote everyone but the one guy you knew was not telling the truth in that threesome.

I will have to back and check the actual posts but your votes tell a different story than you are right now.

If he posted/voted after Narc's reveal, that is pretty damning. I was wondering if Mau was getting cute in this spot.

This is why I didn't want to rush to Nightfall today. Stuff has a way of happening that makes you want to take a look at events, even if you think it is open/shut.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Autumn

All I see here is that Mau's reveal shows us that EF was absolutely lying. If Narc was never the sheriff then EF did not see Narc getting converted, which means EF's story has nothing to it. Unless we now want to assume that Narc was another role, which was converted night four, and EF saw that. I don't know, people seem willing to bend awfully far to give credence to EF's story. We lynch people over way less than this.

Narc voted himself rather than EF. If EF is not a wolf, then Narc must just be the last wolf and wanted the game over? I mean what possible explanation is there for that?

Not sure how me seeing Narc get converted ties into any role that Narc had or didn't have. I don't remember seeing anywhere in the rules that the sherrif is the only character that can be converted.

Narc seems to have accomplished just what the wolves wanted. They have the village running in the wrong direction.

[hoopsguy]

I really am not in a rush to do the Nightfall with the mau stuff reading the way it is. If that makes me someone trying to save EF, then so be it.

I think the EF = villager scenario takes a lot of imagination to believe, so we're almost certainly doing a good thing with that vote. Two detectives, wolves throwing vote at him last night, etc.

But why hasn't someone come forward to admit using the Scroll of Wrath on EF yesterday? Why wouldn't a villager want to help us connect the dots on this?