Werewolf CXL - The Dark Knight Returns - GAME OVER - Page 5

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 03:01 AM

Well I don't know. Having 2 blocks is good. We'll need those blocks toward the middle/end of the game. I can't see that info helping us THAT much although I do see your point. Has its merits but I'd rather we have all 4 blocks available. No need to get our bodyguard killed AGAIN.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 03:02 AM

Oh I see, you think the supervillain won't be interested in killing a cop who has already used up one of his blocks. Hmmm. INteresting thought.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

That really seems to imply that he IS two-face. But there is no reason why Two-face would want to signal anybody.

BUt maybe it's just a disturbed person trying to allude to 2face by clueing two-face.

Dunno, I think it's just Abe being Abe but people need to be careful about what they say if they're villagers. Then again he did send signals last game when he was Batman. So I dunno, basically.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Well I don't know. Having 2 blocks is good. We'll need those blocks toward the middle/end of the game. I can't see that info helping us THAT much although I do see your point. Has its merits but I'd rather we have all 4 blocks available. No need to get our bodyguard killed AGAIN.

They don't have 2 blocks. They have one block and then they die on the next "block". In the circumstances where they've already blocked once them using up a night kill is the optimum result for the village.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 03:32 AM

It still counts as a block tho. They block AS a martyr technically.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 03:46 AM

Yeah - but if the wolf isn't going to target them then they can get that block in anyway. If he does then, well, he'll kill them. Same result as if they "block" someone.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 03:58 AM

hmmm got it

Zinto · 10-18-2011, 04:16 AM

I don't think I necessarily agree with the second block being useless. There are definitely advantages to having that second block/martyr depending on the situation the village finds itself in.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 04:21 AM

I didn't say that it was useless just that it's not a power that a wolf is going to use a night kill to remove.

Zinto · 10-18-2011, 04:32 AM

I guess it depends where we are in the game and who is revealing as the bodyguard. If the seer(s) is out of the game why not kill the bodyguard? It is probably important for the bodyguard to come out if they did a successfully block someone, since if they do not do so it is probably going to cause confusion during the next day if they do not.

Zinto · 10-18-2011, 04:36 AM

I can also see why the bodyguard would want to keep it a secret to who they blocked because unlike other games it does not clear the other person. To even get into more since the bodyguards can not protect themselves, they probably shouldn't block anyone the first few nights since a block on a vanilla villager is a poor exchange for a bodyguard.

Zinto · 10-18-2011, 04:37 AM

Well at least that is my two cents for whoever the bodyguards are to consider.

hoopsguy · 10-18-2011, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

I am also going to place an early vote, that I am sure is going to raise some eyebrows. Hoops played a great wolf game in the last Dark Knight and this will be a revenge shot for convincing everyone I was a wolf in that game.

Vote Hoops

This has to be on the "You know you are a wolf when you do this" list, right?

I'm actually surprised how few revenge votes there are on Day 1 overall in FOFC games.

hoopsguy · 10-18-2011, 05:53 AM

Also, to chime in on the bodyguard thing - if there is a conversion won't we know 24 hours later if/when there is an extra kill? Given that we'll see the by-product of a conversion show up as a secondary kill, I'm not sure I agree that the best play is for a bodyguard to reveal. As previously noted, there may be situations where the martyr is preferable to the wolves getting to pick their kill. And if a bodyguard does go out as a martyr then they would definitely have done their job this game by denying the wolves their targets two separate times.

Danny · 10-18-2011, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

So the police then. If they make a block then I think they should reveal the fact straight away so we know that it's a block rather than a conversion. After they've made a block they become a martyr so I doubt they'll be very interesting to Two-Face and that shouldn't be an issue. I think we're better off knowing that there could be two kills coming the next night or not.

Agreed

Danny · 10-18-2011, 06:30 AM

Just to expand on that, but if the wolves want to target martyrs that is a good thing as it guarantees are more important roles live longer. I see no reason for a martyr not to reveal upon a block.

dzilla77 · 10-18-2011, 06:39 AM

Won't be around much til later but I will throw out a random vote

Vote Zinto

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Also, to chime in on the bodyguard thing - if there is a conversion won't we know 24 hours later if/when there is an extra kill? Given that we'll see the by-product of a conversion show up as a secondary kill, I'm not sure I agree that the best play is for a bodyguard to reveal.

Well as we lose nothing by the bodyguard revealing (martyr blocking = martyr being targeted = martyr dying) and we get infomation that will be relevent during that day (we need to know if Two-Face has picked up info in the thread about who might be a possible convert to lead to better informed decisions) I'm hard pressed to see why it isn't the best play.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 07:12 AM

I still say Autumn is somehow guilty. I really want to vote for him

Autumn · 10-18-2011, 07:18 AM

All I'm guilty of is letting you into this game.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 07:20 AM

mortal sin there. CONFESS!

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Obviously I wasn't round but I don't think there was much discussion about targeting you. I think the main thing you achieved was a degree of trust from some of the village and the (correct) suspicion that you didn't have a role among the wolves. Often villagers are looking for an easy reason to vote someone as well as the wolves early on.

I donno, I was in danger of being lynched for awhile there that night.

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 07:32 AM

I'm thinking about the logic of a martyr revealing. Since there is the opportunity for a multiple kill/block situation on the same person, I would think the wolves would want to remove that opportunity in case an important role is forced to reveal. The less wolves required to kill one person, the better for them. Of course they can't speak to coordinate such attacks, so at least there's that.

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 07:33 AM

And I'm not sure if knowing there's going to be two kills the next night changes how the day goes. Though if the forensic officers go early, and a martyr gets killed without saying they got a block, then we'll be left in the dark if they don't hit multiple kills in the same night. So I guess I'm leaning towards more public info as well in terms of a martyr reveal.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 07:46 AM

If we know that there's been a conversion night two then we can look at day two and see if there's any hints that could have lead to the conversion. If we wait until day four then a) there's more chance that there's two kills night three and b) the events of day two aren't as fresh and most people are going to be interested in looking there.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 07:52 AM

are we

yet?

hoopsguy · 10-18-2011, 07:57 AM

Narc, are you suggesting you want the bodyguards to reveal when they don't get a block and there is no night kill so we know there has been a conversion?

There are a bunch of potential scenarios that could play out:
1.) There is a night kill - no discussion
2.) There is no night kill, by the bodyguards know there was a block
3.) There is no night kill, and the bodyguards know there was no block

I thought the original argument was around #2, but post #225 sounds like you are adding in #3 as a case for reveals as well. Am I reading this correctly?

I also want to clarify now that I'm not a bodyguard, but I'm interested in some of the arguments that are being raised here because they don't coincide with my first instinct for how to play that role. Hopefully the folks who actually are the bodyguards are sitting back and taking this all in rather than inadvertently outing themselves by being too fervent in this discussion.

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 08:04 AM

are you SURE the bodyguards can talk to each other? I was under the impression that they could not. Sounds like you think they can.

PackerFanatic · 10-18-2011, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

are you SURE the bodyguards can talk to each other? I was under the impression that they could not. Sounds like you think they can.

That was my impression as well. Doesn't look like there is anything specific saying they can.

PackerFanatic · 10-18-2011, 08:11 AM

Just getting a vote out there early, I should be around most of the day

VOTE MAUBOY1

hoopsguy · 10-18-2011, 08:12 AM

I'm under the impression no one can send PMs, but each of the bodyguards will know what their results were.

This is why I believe that we're heading down a dangerous path in terms of bodyguards revealing info on a non-kill day where they did not get the block. Because they would still have their block in hand and be unable to protect themselves. I can at least understand the logic if they got a block and are converted to martyr status, but I don't get it at all in scenario #3 I outlined above.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

are we

yet?

I think we are.

It's not the same situation as a traditional game because the bodyguard rules aren't the same as in a traditional game and the bodyguards have to worry about trying to block conversions as well as prevent a kill.

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

but I don't get it at all in scenario #3 I
outlined above.

Ah I get it. I don't think anyone should come out with any info in case of scenario #3, as it's either a conversion or the wolf has fallen asleep at the wheel. If there is no kill and no-one says they blocked a kill then we presume there has been a conversion and we see if there might have been anything the day before that might indicate a connection between 2-Face and a potential convertee.

MrBug708 · 10-18-2011, 08:55 AM

Im surprised CF hasn't taken on a pseudo Harley Quinn role for fun

CrimsonFox · 10-18-2011, 08:57 AM

the costume's in the cleaners and the balloons deflated.

hoopsguy · 10-18-2011, 08:59 AM

Not a lot of men are so open with information about their deflated balloon.

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Not a lot of men are so open with information about their deflated balloon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r6HamSoz2w

PackerFanatic · 10-18-2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Not a lot of men are so open with information about their deflated balloon.

I think we all know by now that CF is no ordinary man.

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Not a lot of men are so open with information about their deflated balloon.

Actually this one is better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVgXG...eature=related

Danny · 10-18-2011, 09:40 AM

This thread is BORING so far!!!

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 09:49 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only post so far truly referencing looking inside of people's posts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinto

It is going to be extremely important to try and find those little hints in people's posts that I can never find trying to bait Two Face into killing them. It is going to be interesting to see how some of the players try to flag him.

Not getting a bad vibe from Zinto or anything, but I know when I've had a role in the past like a lone wolf sometimes I just go ahead and straight ask a question about the role in the thread or talk about people looking for it to try and signal.

The Jackal · 10-18-2011, 09:51 AM

Really I'm just trying to spice up Danny's life with some controversy

Chief Rum · 10-18-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'm under the impression no one can send PMs, but each of the bodyguards will know what their results were.

I don't see this in the BG description. It seems to me the bodyguards will know their own results (of course), but not the others.

I assumed that, like all other roles, the BGs cannot communicate, at least not by PM.

My assumption is that they work independently of one another. Is it possible they know each other's identity? I could see that.

hoopsguy · 10-18-2011, 10:10 AM

I think my pronouns were probably not what I meant.

I assume (probably only two people know the answer for sure) that a bodyguard will know their result, not the result for the other bodyguard. So in the above, each bodyguard would understand their own results but not that of the other bodyguard.

I'm working with the assumption that this is a "No PM" game, unless someone comes out and says otherwise. But the rules sure suggest that everyone operates alone in terms of decisions this game.

Danny · 10-18-2011, 10:44 AM

I agree with Hoops and CR.

Abe Sargent · 10-18-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Since this is the only thing you said,I'm trying to figure out how this is code to two-face.

Is that Coldplay or Kylie Monogue?

Coldplay blows.

Abe Sargent · 10-18-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

This thread is BORING so far!!!

I tried to keep it light and funny and I get accused of signaling I'm Two-Face!

Abe Sargent · 10-18-2011, 12:02 PM

I think you might be trying a bit too hard there buddy

Vote CrimsonFox

Abe Sargent · 10-18-2011, 12:03 PM

Listening to - Morcheeba, Rome Wasn't Built in a Day

Narcizo · 10-18-2011, 12:07 PM

I endorse Abe's choice of music so far. Ish.

10-18-2011, 12:02 PM	#248
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	I think you might be trying a bit too hard there buddy Vote CrimsonFox __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

10-18-2011, 12:03 PM	#249
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Listening to - Morcheeba, Rome Wasn't Built in a Day __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

10-18-2011, 03:01 AM	#201
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	Well I don't know. Having 2 blocks is good. We'll need those blocks toward the middle/end of the game. I can't see that info helping us THAT much although I do see your point. Has its merits but I'd rather we have all 4 blocks available. No need to get our bodyguard killed AGAIN.

10-18-2011, 03:02 AM	#202
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	Oh I see, you think the supervillain won't be interested in killing a cop who has already used up one of his blocks. Hmmm. INteresting thought.

10-18-2011, 03:32 AM	#205
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	It still counts as a block tho. They block AS a martyr technically.

10-18-2011, 03:46 AM	#206
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	Yeah - but if the wolf isn't going to target them then they can get that block in anyway. If he does then, well, he'll kill them. Same result as if they "block" someone.

10-18-2011, 03:58 AM	#207
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	hmmm got it

10-18-2011, 04:16 AM	#208
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	I don't think I necessarily agree with the second block being useless. There are definitely advantages to having that second block/martyr depending on the situation the village finds itself in.

10-18-2011, 04:21 AM	#209
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	I didn't say that it was useless just that it's not a power that a wolf is going to use a night kill to remove.

10-18-2011, 04:32 AM	#210
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	I guess it depends where we are in the game and who is revealing as the bodyguard. If the seer(s) is out of the game why not kill the bodyguard? It is probably important for the bodyguard to come out if they did a successfully block someone, since if they do not do so it is probably going to cause confusion during the next day if they do not.

10-18-2011, 04:36 AM	#211
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	I can also see why the bodyguard would want to keep it a secret to who they blocked because unlike other games it does not clear the other person. To even get into more since the bodyguards can not protect themselves, they probably shouldn't block anyone the first few nights since a block on a vanilla villager is a poor exchange for a bodyguard.

10-18-2011, 04:37 AM	#212
Zinto College Starter Join Date: Jan 2011	Well at least that is my two cents for whoever the bodyguards are to consider.

10-18-2011, 05:53 AM	#214
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Also, to chime in on the bodyguard thing - if there is a conversion won't we know 24 hours later if/when there is an extra kill? Given that we'll see the by-product of a conversion show up as a secondary kill, I'm not sure I agree that the best play is for a bodyguard to reveal. As previously noted, there may be situations where the martyr is preferable to the wolves getting to pick their kill. And if a bodyguard does go out as a martyr then they would definitely have done their job this game by denying the wolves their targets two separate times.

10-18-2011, 06:30 AM	#216
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	Just to expand on that, but if the wolves want to target martyrs that is a good thing as it guarantees are more important roles live longer. I see no reason for a martyr not to reveal upon a block.

10-18-2011, 06:39 AM	#217
dzilla77 High School Varsity Join Date: May 2011	Won't be around much til later but I will throw out a random vote Vote Zinto

10-18-2011, 07:12 AM	#219
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	I still say Autumn is somehow guilty. I really want to vote for him

10-18-2011, 07:18 AM	#220
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	All I'm guilty of is letting you into this game.

10-18-2011, 07:20 AM	#221
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	mortal sin there. CONFESS!

10-18-2011, 07:32 AM	#223
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	I'm thinking about the logic of a martyr revealing. Since there is the opportunity for a multiple kill/block situation on the same person, I would think the wolves would want to remove that opportunity in case an important role is forced to reveal. The less wolves required to kill one person, the better for them. Of course they can't speak to coordinate such attacks, so at least there's that.

10-18-2011, 07:33 AM	#224
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	And I'm not sure if knowing there's going to be two kills the next night changes how the day goes. Though if the forensic officers go early, and a martyr gets killed without saying they got a block, then we'll be left in the dark if they don't hit multiple kills in the same night. So I guess I'm leaning towards more public info as well in terms of a martyr reveal.

10-18-2011, 07:46 AM	#225
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	If we know that there's been a conversion night two then we can look at day two and see if there's any hints that could have lead to the conversion. If we wait until day four then a) there's more chance that there's two kills night three and b) the events of day two aren't as fresh and most people are going to be interested in looking there.

10-18-2011, 07:52 AM	#226
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	are we yet?

10-18-2011, 07:57 AM	#227
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Narc, are you suggesting you want the bodyguards to reveal when they don't get a block and there is no night kill so we know there has been a conversion? There are a bunch of potential scenarios that could play out: 1.) There is a night kill - no discussion 2.) There is no night kill, by the bodyguards know there was a block 3.) There is no night kill, and the bodyguards know there was no block I thought the original argument was around #2, but post #225 sounds like you are adding in #3 as a case for reveals as well. Am I reading this correctly? I also want to clarify now that I'm not a bodyguard, but I'm interested in some of the arguments that are being raised here because they don't coincide with my first instinct for how to play that role. Hopefully the folks who actually are the bodyguards are sitting back and taking this all in rather than inadvertently outing themselves by being too fervent in this discussion.

10-18-2011, 08:04 AM	#228
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	are you SURE the bodyguards can talk to each other? I was under the impression that they could not. Sounds like you think they can.

10-18-2011, 08:11 AM	#230
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	Just getting a vote out there early, I should be around most of the day VOTE MAUBOY1

10-18-2011, 08:12 AM	#231
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	I'm under the impression no one can send PMs, but each of the bodyguards will know what their results were. This is why I believe that we're heading down a dangerous path in terms of bodyguards revealing info on a non-kill day where they did not get the block. Because they would still have their block in hand and be unable to protect themselves. I can at least understand the logic if they got a block and are converted to martyr status, but I don't get it at all in scenario #3 I outlined above.

10-18-2011, 08:55 AM	#234
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Im surprised CF hasn't taken on a pseudo Harley Quinn role for fun

10-18-2011, 08:57 AM	#235
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	the costume's in the cleaners and the balloons deflated.

10-18-2011, 08:59 AM	#236
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Not a lot of men are so open with information about their deflated balloon.

10-18-2011, 09:40 AM	#240
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	This thread is BORING so far!!!

10-18-2011, 09:51 AM	#242
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	Really I'm just trying to spice up Danny's life with some controversy

10-18-2011, 10:10 AM	#244
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	I think my pronouns were probably not what I meant. I assume (probably only two people know the answer for sure) that a bodyguard will know their result, not the result for the other bodyguard. So in the above, each bodyguard would understand their own results but not that of the other bodyguard. I'm working with the assumption that this is a "No PM" game, unless someone comes out and says otherwise. But the rules sure suggest that everyone operates alone in terms of decisions this game.