Microsoft Surface announcement

[cartman]

Looks like they might have a winner with this. There are a lot of IT shops that have avoided embracing the iPad due to interoperability and supportability issues. If these devices work anywhere near like they do in the product announcement show, look for the iPad to have a strong opponent in the enterprise market. I think the iPad will still be the platform to beat in the consumer realm.

http://live.theverge.com/microsoft-l...-announcement/

[mckerney]

It's the first tablet that's really looked interesting to me. Never thought much of buying one before, but depending on things like openness of the version of Windows they put on it, battery life and price I may strongly consider it. If I could run some of the Windows programs I do no I would be very interested in it.

Definitely agree with you on the business market too. Things like built in stand , keyboard the the cover, the stylus support it has and Office being included seem aimed towards winning over business users.

[Eaglesfan27]

Very intriguing. I will definitely check it out once it is released.

[RainMaker]

Yeah, glad to see more competition in the space too. And a business tablet would be highly interesting to me.

[mckerney]

[jeff061]

So other than Windows 8, what sets it apart?

[gstelmack]

My only concern with this and Windows Phone is that Microsoft constantly squanders advantages in the mobile space. I'll go back to my Dell Axim, that I had to drop because Vista wouldn't synch that particular version of Windows CE / Mobile / whatever at the time. They work so hard at desktop compatibility, but orphan the mobile bits so fast. I REALLY want a Windows Phone and Tablet to go with my computer and Xbox, but they've got to stop orphaning old products (Zune vs MediaPlayer vs MediaCenter, really?) and segmenting things.

I have high hopes for Windows 8 finally unifying all of this, but they are going to have to overcome the fact that iOS has become the defacto mobile OS. Android may be in a bunch of phones, but the app space is not nearly as rich as iOS, and it's only slowly improving. Is Windows 8 unified enough to overcome the app hurdles? Maybe getting it into the IT space will help, plus the single OS (write single game that runs on PC, phone, tablet, and console?) will FINALLY overcome these hurdles.

I really want it to, otherwise I'll probably have an iPhone and an iPad by this time next year, to go with my Windows 8 PC and Xbox.

[gstelmack]

Oooo, finally watched the video. Keboard built into the cover so I can more easily type notes in meetings? That may be HUGE. I used to do that with my old Palm...

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Oooo, finally watched the video. Keboard built into the cover so I can more easily type notes in meetings? That may be HUGE. I used to do that with my old Palm...

It's just a bluetooth keyboard, haven't keyboard covers been around for awhile now?

The main surprise will be if this thing is priced within $150 of an iPad.

[Scoobz0202]

By only saying "priced competitively" it might be pretty expensive. We'll see.

[RomaGoth]

Looks pretty slick but I would also have concerns about the pricing. Also wondering if it is backward compatible at all, since not everything is going to run on Windows 8 immediately.

[Marc Vaughan]

Looks interesting - think they're shooting it in the foot a little by doing an ARM (non-windows 8) and Intel (Windows 8) version as that confuses things hugely for your average user.

From a developer perspective its C#, but I believe you can 'bridge' into C++ which might make it more viable than Windows Mobile .... looking forward to playing with it.

[stevew]

In for one depending on cost. Especially if it can run FOF, OOTP, and maybe some games like Civ5.

[jeff061]

It's ARM, which is still technically Windows 8, but it's not going to run the same apps your desktop does.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

By only saying "priced competitively" it might be pretty expensive. We'll see.

Yeah. Priced competitive to a ultrabook(800-1000$) ain't gonna cut it. Especially when that cover probably costs 99$. What size is this? A 7" will be DOA over $350 and a 10" better not be much more than 500$.

I also saw Toshiba put out a 13" tablet and that size interests me. I think it is $649.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Looks pretty slick but I would also have concerns about the pricing. Also wondering if it is backward compatible at all, since not everything is going to run on Windows 8 immediately.

I found Windows 7 weird. I guess progress is inevitable.

I thought they had backwards compatibility built into 7... could be wrong.

FOF on a tablet? Ability to use all my XP programs on it like a laptop, but it's a tablet? Then we're talking...

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

It's ARM, which is still technically Windows 8, but it's not going to run the same apps your desktop does.

There are two from the sounds of it - one ARM and one Intel, the Intel one 'might' run native Windows 8 apps (most likely Metro based ones?) ... the ARM one will require specific development for sure, but does likely support C++ development as I mentioned.

For me if this needs to be sub-iPad in price and done aggressively to gain marketshare ....

[ISiddiqui]

It appears the ARM one is basically a Windows Phone-like Tablet (with a cover that has a keyboard built in it and a built in stand) and Intel one is basically a full featured Windows 8 laptop in a tablet format (I have read that it can run Office & Photoshop).

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

There are two from the sounds of it - one ARM and one Intel, the Intel one 'might' run native Windows 8 apps (most likely Metro based ones?) ... the ARM one will require specific development for sure, but does likely support C++ development as I mentioned.

For me if this needs to be sub-iPad in price and done aggressively to gain marketshare ....

Right, but I don't expect it will be running FOF, Civ, etc... Not without them making a seperate ARM only version.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

From a developer perspective its C#, but I believe you can 'bridge' into C++ which might make it more viable than Windows Mobile .... looking forward to playing with it.

I don't quite get this: Android is Java, iOS is Objective-C (and requires a Mac to build on), and the Unity engine is C# cross-platform. What is the C++ / C# issue here? And yes, I'm mostly ignorant on mobile development, I've only briefly dabbled and that was looking at some Mono stuff, since I love C#

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

My only concern with this and Windows Phone is that Microsoft constantly squanders advantages in the mobile space. I'll go back to my Dell Axim, that I had to drop because Vista wouldn't synch that particular version of Windows CE / Mobile / whatever at the time. They work so hard at desktop compatibility, but orphan the mobile bits so fast. I REALLY want a Windows Phone and Tablet to go with my computer and Xbox, but they've got to stop orphaning old products (Zune vs MediaPlayer vs MediaCenter, really?) and segmenting things.

I have high hopes for Windows 8 finally unifying all of this, but they are going to have to overcome the fact that iOS has become the defacto mobile OS. Android may be in a bunch of phones, but the app space is not nearly as rich as iOS, and it's only slowly improving. Is Windows 8 unified enough to overcome the app hurdles? Maybe getting it into the IT space will help, plus the single OS (write single game that runs on PC, phone, tablet, and console?) will FINALLY overcome these hurdles.

I really want it to, otherwise I'll probably have an iPhone and an iPad by this time next year, to go with my Windows 8 PC and Xbox.

I am running Windows 7.5 syncing with the cloud (Both with MS 365 and GMAIL), my home network and with Xbox Companion, my 360. I do own a Samsung Galaxy 10.1 Tablet but I would move to this in a heartbeat if it does what it promises.

[Desnudo]

I love the keyboard + touchpad built into the cover. The stylus feels like when American car companies throw in crap that no driver actually wants because someone in marketing said you needed it.

[jeff061]

I don't have a tablet and wouldn't buy one without a stylus. First thing it would do is replace pen and paper during meetings. If it can't do that, I'm not interested.

[Desnudo]

You can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3 on Amazon.

I see a lot of iPads in meetings and have never seen a stylus once, despite some decent note taking apps out there...

This is a case of perceived need and use vs. actual use.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I don't quite get this: Android is Java, iOS is Objective-C (and requires a Mac to build on), and the Unity engine is C# cross-platform. What is the C++ / C# issue here? And yes, I'm mostly ignorant on mobile development, I've only briefly dabbled and that was looking at some Mono stuff, since I love C#

Most platforms try and support C++ because its been the most common/popular programming language for a long long time now, this means theres a heck of a lot of legacy code kicking around for it.

For instance with Football Manager Handheld, its a small game comparatively to the PC version - but its still around 350,000 lines of code; as such porting it to a new language would be a prohibitive cost (as would supporting divergent language bases) ... this means I only seriously look at porting the game to platforms which support C++.

iOS was possible because Apple support C++ (ObjC is a derivative of it) and Android is Java based but supports C++ through the jni.

Microsoft with the latest Windows Mobile didn't support C++ at all which is frankly the reason why Football Manager Handheld (amongst other apps) has never apeared on it - I LOVE Microsofts development tools and it was the first mobile platform after iOS I looked at, but without C++ it simply wasn't feasible to support.

PS - C# is 'cool enough' as far as languages go (all languages have advantages and disadvantages), I don't mind it at all - I can dabble in most things; I know enough ObjC, C# and Java to stumble through most things ... but at heart I'm a C++ developer.

[Fidatelo]

Isn't the biggest thing that C++ compiles to native code whereas C# is managed code that runs on top of the .NET CLR, thereby incurring a performance hit?

[ISiddiqui]

Civ on a touchscreen would be super fun, I think .

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

You can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3 on Amazon.

I see a lot of iPads in meetings and have never seen a stylus once, despite some decent note taking apps out there...

This is a case of perceived need and use vs. actual use.

I always lose mine. So I get tired of buying them.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Civ on a touchscreen would be super fun, I think .

Think Civilisation Revolution - I believe they've already done iOS for it, so if the Surface makes a big enough splash then I expect it'll come across to that ....

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Isn't the biggest thing that C++ compiles to native code whereas C# is managed code that runs on top of the .NET CLR, thereby incurring a performance hit?

C++ CAN, but there's also Managed C++, which compiles the same as .NET, and as noted the Android version of C++ does basically the same thing (compiles to the JNI).

I code in both C++ and C# on a regular basis, and yes writing in native code is great to squeeze every last drop of performance (major 3D rendering, for example, or complex physics environments), while C# is great when you want quick turnaround. C# is a great language for tools, for example, but it also works pretty well for most casual games that don't need every last drop of performance.

The fun part is a lot of the advantages of C++ go away in a high-performance game environment. "Don't use virtual functions", "Don't use if statements", etc, as the processors aren't as well set up as general PC processors for these features. I swear the guys designing the CPUs must hate software engineers deep down inside somewhere, so they want to take away some of our best tools and make us write in C again...

Marc's point about existing code is a key one, though: when that's what you've got, converting is difficult, expensive, and likely not worth it, unless the market is big enough to make it pay off.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Think Civilisation Revolution - I believe they've already done iOS for it, so if the Surface makes a big enough splash then I expect it'll come across to that ....

Why that small? It appears on the Surface Windows 8 Pro you can play Civ5.

[Subby]

Looks like a complete piece of shit. I predict it will be about as widely adopted as the Zune.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Subby

Looks like a complete piece of shit. I predict it will be about as widely adopted as the Zune.

This.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Subby

Looks like a complete piece of shit.

I haven't heard this type of viewpoint... except from fanboys.

[Subby]

I hope I'm wrong, but that opinion is coming from a lifelong user of Microsoft products.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Subby

Looks like a complete piece of shit. I predict it will be about as widely adopted as the Zune.

Originally Posted by Subby

I hope I'm wrong, but that opinion is coming from a lifelong user of Microsoft products.

Out of curiosity, what reasoning is behind these comments?

[Subby]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Out of curiosity, what reasoning is behind these comments?

I'm just going on track record, which is terrible for mobile and devices.

Also, I have a hard time believing that Windows 8 won't be buggy and problematic. It's really different from the OS versions they have put out in the past. Remember the XP to Vista change? How do we know this won't be any different?

I am perfectly happy using Windows 7 on my desktop. That's where MS works, for the most part. I just don't see them being very good at tablets.

[Daimyo]

This will fail. Usually when a company aims for the best of both worlds they get neither. They've fragmented their market into two devices which will confuse consumers and scare away developers.

It sounds great that you get choice, but the low-end will likely be overpriced relative to the tablet market. That combined with the huge network effects operating in Apple and Android's favor dooms it to fail quickly (who's going to develop for it when the market is small, and who's going to buy it without compelling apps?).

The high-end will likely be overpriced relative to the ultra-book market and since it runs the same software as regular Windows machines it probably won't make business sense to develop software specifically for it's strengths. They'll likely get a lot of corps to do pilots, but it will likely be too expensive for any sort of widespread adoption and so it will fail more slowly.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Subby

I'm just going on track record, which is terrible for mobile and devices.

Also, I have a hard time believing that Windows 8 won't be buggy and problematic. It's really different from the OS versions they have put out in the past. Remember the XP to Vista change? How do we know this won't be any different?

I am perfectly happy using Windows 7 on my desktop. That's where MS works, for the most part. I just see them being very good at tablets.

I hate Vista.

Been using a temporary laptop with Vista on it until I buy a new one later this year, and nothing runs on this stupid thing. FOF does not run, can't get most other games to even install correctly, never mind actually starting them up.

Never thought I would say this, but I actually miss Windows XP. I am hoping Windows 7 runs better for me, as I only use it on my work laptop right now and not for any games.

As for Windows 8, Microsoft has proven in the past that there new OS will always be buggy at first. I have just come to accept that from them. The Surface looks pretty slick outside of a potential new buggy OS and high pricing.

[Subby]

The problem is that for most part, ALL tablets look slick. They are thin and minimalist and just seem like the natural evolution of the laptop.

As so many tablets (and smartphones) have shown, once you get past the initial wow factor, useability is what matters. And I just don't have a good feeling that Microsoft all of a sudden got useability right for mobile.

[jeff061]

I only hold hope because, in my opinion, all existing tablets are garbage. Every single one... Android, iPad, whatever. So to me personally, there's plenty to improve on.

But I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Subby

It's really different from the OS versions they have put out in the past. Remember the XP to Vista change? How do we know this won't be any different?

I am perfectly happy using Windows 7

These words in the order they are in make little sense.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Subby

And I just don't have a good feeling that Microsoft all of a sudden got useability right for mobile.

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

[Subby]

You seem angry. Don't make me come give you a non-sexual, brotastic foot massage.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

You can buy an aftermarket stylus for $3 on Amazon.

I see a lot of iPads in meetings and have never seen a stylus once, despite some decent note taking apps out there...

This is a case of perceived need and use vs. actual use.

I've seen multiple instances of people using styluses on iPads and iPhones. It's certainly a small minority, but it's not rare either. There is a segment of the population out there that want the precision and/or the form factor/familiarity of interfacing using a pen-like device.

Not to mention for artists such as myself, having the option to use a stylus instantly means that, if the Pro version can adequately run Photoshop (and other graphics programs), it would be productive to actually do so. After years of being able to work with Wacom products, there's no way I'd run any of those graphics programs without the ability to use a stylus.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have heard NOTHING but rave reviews for the new Windows Phone OS.

The problem with Windows Phone OS is that while its inherently usable and well designed ... but the app support isn't evolved enough for it to take market share away from Android and iOS in a meaningful manner (see my comments about it not supporting C++ and thus dissuading a lot of developers from making products for it).

As such it could well go the way of the Betamax vs VHS - it doesn't matter if your system is better, if its not supported people won't buy it ...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Subby

They still have less than a 2% world market share, so something is wrong there.

Its hard to break through when there is an established market share (Microsoft's competitors know it well - when IE was dominating browsers was it because their competitors had problems with their browsers?) and when you don't really get on the sexy phones. Though getting Windows Phone OS on Nokia 900 was a good step.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I only hold hope because, in my opinion, all existing tablets are garbage. Every single one... Android, iPad, whatever. So to me personally, there's plenty to improve on.

But I'm not paying more than $500 for something that's not a full fledged laptop.

I use both my iPad and my Kindle Fire a fair bit, both for different things - the iPad is great for games whereas the Kindle fire is more for reading and portability (its small enough to slot into a pocket easily).

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Subby

You seem angry. Don't make me come give you a non-sexual, brotastic foot massage.

Maybe he's the Zune tattoo guy?