Trump's Immigration Reform

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

https://abcnews.go.com/US/noncitizen...y?id=119912375

Originally Posted by cuervo72

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...302299534.html

Thank you both for the links.

I agree that if a person does not have a criminal record in US and/or home country, and is only guilty of crossing the border illegally, he should not have been shipped off to Guantanamo or El Salvador.

We do not know the numbers but some (1) were criminals in the US (2) some had criminal records in home country.

But very likely (3) others did not and was only guilty of crossing illegally, by association with other gang members (e.g. caught in the roundup) and/or random stop. We should find another way to handle the 3rd group.


Question to both of you - if an illegal did have a criminal felony in the US, would it have been okay to send that person to Guantanamo or El Salvador if their home country was not willing to take them back?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Thank you both for the links.

I agree that if a personal does not have a criminal record in US and/or home country, and is only guilty of crossing the border illegally, he should not have been shipped off to Guantanamo or El Salvador.

We do not know the numbers but some (1) were criminals in the US (2) some had criminal records in home country.

But very likely (3) others did not and was only guilty of crossing illegally, by association with other gang members (e.g. caught in the roundup) and/or random stop. We should find another way to handle the 3rd group.


Question to both of you - if an illegal did have a criminal felony in the US, would it have been okay to send that person to Guantanamo or El Salvador if their home country was not willing to take them back?

No one should be sold into slavery in 2025. No circumstance justifies it.

If they're convicted felons that were deporting them then we either ship them back to their home country or keep them detained in the US while we pressure the home country to accept these deportstions. We have the economic means of doing that. Guantanamo is stupid from a cost standpoint. That's been proven.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Again, I know English is tough for you, so let's be clear, I'm supporting due process in general, not the victim in particular. Allow me to ease your mental distress by re-quoting the key elements from the article:

Specifically on defying a judge's order after she was denied reentry, see my earlier post.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Trump's Immigration Reform

The real question is (which you continue to evade) whether or not you agree that she should have been denied reentry in the first place?

Ah, I see the disconnect. You are picturing me shouting "authoritarian fascist" with anger in my voice and spittle shooting from my mouth. Pretty standard GRU/MSS/SVR tactic, to frame your target as unhinged and unreliable, so as to undercut their arguments that you can't defeat in normal fashion.

No, you should picture me saying "authoritarian fascist" in a dismissive, disparaging, and weary tone, summarizing my (indeed, our) collective dismay at your continued water-carrying for modern-day Nazis.

An easy mistake to make in a text-only communication medium, so I am happy to magnanimously forgive you this time.

Though, to be clear, you are still a fascist cunt.

Yup, seems pretty unhinged to me.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The irony is that these will be the same people crying about how we need to stay ahead of the world in technology and science.

Meanwhile:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/byd-chi...-five-minutes/

I assume this was a dig at me? If so, know that I've been very consistent in wanting the highly educated, regardless of skin color. See pg 2 and repeated numerous times in this thread.

6) Identify highly skilled immigrants and, assuming we can overcome the security and background check challenges, give them a fast track to US citizenship. Many of these will probably be Chinese or Asian students

If this was a just a dig at Trump, no problem. I agree he hasn't been strategic on the "highly educated" segment (yet).

[cuervo72]

California couple deported after living in U.S. for 35 years | KTLA

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I assume this was a dig at me? If so, know that I've been very consistent in wanting the highly educated, regardless of skin color. See pg 2 and repeated numerous times in this thread.

Why would a highly educated, skilled person come to the United States at this point when they can be thrown out for liking the wrong tweet, having a tattoo, or maybe the President ate some food from that country that gave them food poisoning and decided to kick everyone from there out?

We'll just stick to getting lapped by the rest of the world and ban their companies from operating here because our companies can't compete.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

California couple deported after living in U.S. for 35 years | KTLA

I googled on them and couldn't find any reason other than illegal entry e.g. didn't do anything stupid and/or criminal.

So yeah, much better example to fight for vs earlier ones.

Originally Posted by Edward64

But no, not going to spend much time worrying about her. There are more worthy illegals & legal non-citizens to worry about. Spend more time worrying about the below situation ...

Texas child being treated for cancer — and who is a US citizen — is deported to Mexico with undocumented parents | The Independent

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why would a highly educated, skilled person come to the United States at this point when they can be thrown out for liking the wrong tweet, having a tattoo, or maybe the President ate some food from that country that gave them food poisoning and decided to kick everyone from there out?

A variant of question previously asked and I answered

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Trump's Immigration Reform

And while we are doing Q&A, don't forget to answer my earlier question. I think there's an easy out, just say you didn't qualify it enough. But if you don't, np, I'll just add it to the list of la-la-land statements you make.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Trump's Immigration Reform

[RainMaker]

I don't know how to make it any clearer. If they're revoking green cards and shuffling you around the country in secret because you protest Israel, they can revoke it over anything. No one with an ounce of talent or skill would risk investing their time and effort into a country like that. You can claim people don't have anything to worry about, but they're not as dumb as you.

As for our immigration policy, if you're diverting resources from capturing human traffickers and drug smugglers (you know, actual criminals) to scour social media for people who like posts critical of Israel, they have control. Shouldn't be a surprise if you've followed our foreign policy over the past few decades. A humiliation ritual for American Presidents that Trump has made even more pathetic.

You'd be a moron to bring your talents here which is all that will be willing to come moving forward. Get that list up of companies to ban for making better products than the Americans, it's going to keep getting bigger.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know how to make it any clearer. If they're revoking green cards and shuffling you around the country in secret because you protest Israel, they can revoke it over anything. No one with an ounce of talent or skill would risk investing their time and effort into a country like that. You can claim people don't have anything to worry about, but they're not as dumb as you.

As for our immigration policy, if you're diverting resources from capturing human traffickers and drug smugglers (you know, actual criminals) to scour social media for people who like posts critical of Israel, they have control. Shouldn't be a surprise if you've followed our foreign policy over the past few decades. A humiliation ritual for American Presidents that Trump has made even more pathetic.

Okay then, its confirmed. I guess you really do believe Israel has "full control of our immigration policies". I'll add that to the "la-la-land" list. Craziness, but you are entitled to your opinions, just don't portray them as fact if you cannot supply any non-twitter-like source.

But if you really meant your original, then your link doesn't support your position. I read it a couple times, if I'm wrong, post the article quote that supports "full control of our immigration policies (not limited to Palestine/Lebanon).

[RainMaker]

reuters.com

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

reuters.com

Not mentioned in your article ...

'Deplorable': French scientist denied US entry over text messages criticising Trump

An FBI investigation was also reportedly launched into the matter, but the charges were dropped before the researcher was put on a plane home to France.

It would be good to know (1) name of researcher and (2) content of the messages. If the messages were really just "Trump is an idiot", he should not have been denied entry.

But because the FBI was called (e.g. they don't hang around the airport and investigate everyone), the implies a higher level of severity in the messages.

I'm leaning towards

... not going to spend much time worrying about her. There are more worthy illegals & legal non-citizens to worry about.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

We do not know the numbers but some (1) were criminals in the US (2) some had criminal records in home country.

But very likely (3) others did not and was only guilty of crossing illegally, by association with other gang members (e.g. caught in the roundup) and/or random stop. We should find another way to handle the 3rd group

CBS has released the 238 names this morning. I sure some analysis will be forthcoming on who they are, what they have been convicted of, what they've been accused of etc.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venezue...alvador-names/

CBS News is publishing the U.S. government's list of the names of the 238 Venezuelan deportees sent to El Salvador below. How long they will remain imprisoned in El Salvador and whether their family members and lawyers will be allowed to communicate with them remain open questions.

I wonder how they got the list. The Feds should have already released this info.

CBS News has obtained an internal government list of the names of the Venezuelan men the Trump administration deported to El Salvador as part of a secretive operation last week that has triggered a legal standoff in the U.S. and a debate around the world.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Watching flere dog walk Edward is the content I’m here for.

I mean shit, he's getting dunked on by RainMaker of all people. You hate to see it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

What it comes down to is we sold slaves to El Salvador for $6 million.

Hey man, we're also sending people private prisons for a few weeks over minor paperwork issues. Probably a totally legit thing and not a way to funnel taxpayer money to the owners of those prisons who donated heavily to the current administration.

[flere-imsaho]

Wait until I tell you how Project 2025 wants to spend your money on education....

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But no, not going to spend much time worrying about her. There are more worthy illegals & legal non-citizens to worry about. Spend more time worrying about the below situation ...

Below is something the Dems should make a big ruckus on and IMO can find much more sympathy from the independent block. I'd also think some GOP would be uncomfortable with this.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-to-...migrants-chnv/

The Trump administration will be revoking the legal status of hundreds of thousands of Latin American and Haitian migrants welcomed into the U.S. under a Biden-era sponsorship process, urging them to self-deport or face arrest and removal by deportation agents.

The move will affect immigrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and Venezuela who flew to the U.S. under a Biden administration program, known as CHNV, that was designed to reduce illegal immigration at the U.S.-Mexico border by giving would-be migrants legal migration avenues.

Not sure how it'll play out in Florida re: Cuban caught up in this. I would not be surprised if there was special dispensation for them

A total of 532,000 migrants entered the U.S. under that policy, which was paused soon after President Trump took office, though it's unclear how many have been able to secure another status that will allow them to stay in the country legally.

The program ...

• An executive order by Joe. So yeah, Trump can cancel it if he wants
• Orig supposedly up to 30,000 so missing how it evolved to 530k+
• Was temporary, no guarantees to anything, but could legally work
• Needed some one/org to declare financial support (pretty serious obligation)
• Passed some sort of security background check
• Could file for some sort of "adjustment of status" as next step

No stats on how many are really in jeopardy (e.g. many would have filed adjustment of status already) but definitely not a good situation. Not illegal, welcomed by Joe, not as much of financial burden (at least to US government), passed security etc. and now have 30 days or so to leave.

[miami_fan]

So...

The people affected by this action by the administration were immigrants that were in the country legally, correct?

And they are now being treated in the same manner as the immigrants who are in the country illegally, correct?

Interesting.

FWIW, I don't think this is necessarily broken down as a battle between both parties. History tells us that despite what is proclaimed on the Statue of Liberty, Americans as a whole are not really here for accepting your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, he wretched refuse of your teeming shore. or these, the homeless, tempest-tossed. I mean we will take those that fit those descriptors and those that fit the opposite of those descriptors at some point but historically we have consistently taken steps to ensure that is not the case. I am not saying this thinking is exclusive to any particular race, ethnicity, etc in this country. I am not saying that other countries don't act in a similar fashion. I say all that to say I don't see either party as necessarily exclusively pro or exclusively anti immigration.

There is no need for the distinction. Our history is littered with examples of our lack of desire for both. I say that without assigning a value judgement. I don’t think that can be disputed.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So...

The people affected by this action by the administration were immigrants that were in the country legally, correct?

And they are now being treated in the same manner as the immigrants who are in the country illegally, correct?

Interesting.

Before answering, and for the benefit of others that may join in (and not be aware of what I said), I will reference below post/discussion which miami_fan is referring to (if wrong, please correct me).

https://forums.operationsports.com/f...&postcount=506

Originally Posted by Edward64

To set the stage, I am recapping what I believe I am answering to (and the caveats) ...
:
I believe it is important to make a distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigration. Because American view the 2 population differently. My quote below still stands
:
Miami_fan does not believe its important to make the distinction and has challenged me

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So...

The people affected by this action by the administration were immigrants that were in the country legally, correct?

And they are now being treated in the same manner as the immigrants who are in the country illegally, correct?

Interesting.

With the caveat immediately above per my prior post ...

• Yes, admitted legally
• But No, because they are not "legal immigrants". And therefore, my prior post on distinction between legal & illegal immigrants still stand.
• Also No, because the discussion we were having was Americans making the distinction (e.g. we discussed polls) and NOT just Trump

The Biden's CHNV program is a "parole" (search for CHNV) not "immigration visa". The article states ...

The Use of Parole Under Immigration Law | American Immigration Council

While individuals who receive a grant of parole are allowed to enter the United States, they are not provided with an immigration status nor are they formally “admitted” into the country for purposes of immigration law. An admission occurs when an immigration officer allows a noncitizen to enter the United States pursuant to a visa or another entry document, without the limitation of parole. The distinction between an admission and parole is a significant one under immigration law.

... and my ask of you still stands

Bottom-line.

Pretty obvious and self evident to me. IMO above links & quotes show plenty of evidence that Americans view legals & illegals differently.

But until there is a reputable Pew/Gallup poll that specifically asks the question(s) directly while comparing/contrasting the 2 populations, all we are left with is tidbits of insight from different polls ... with different timelines, methodologies etc. And that is the best we can do for now.

Question - If you find contradictory poll/survey evidence, provide the links.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not mentioned in your article ...

'Deplorable': French scientist denied US entry over text messages criticising Trump


It would be good to know (1) name of researcher and (2) content of the messages. If the messages were really just "Trump is an idiot", he should not have been denied entry.

But because the FBI was called (e.g. they don't hang around the airport and investigate everyone), the implies a higher level of severity in the messages.

Take it FWIW, a rebuttal from DHS.

Pretty interesting situation. Was this truly a random search or did FBI already had suspicions leading to the CBP "secondary inspection"? This came out Fri, so we'll see if the French want to rebut this next week.

US denies French claims a space researcher was expelled over messages about Trump

Department of Homeland Security spokesperson Tricia McLaughlin said in a statement Thursday that “any claim that his removal was based on political beliefs is blatantly false.”

“The French researcher in question was in possession of confidential information on his electronic device from Los Alamos National Laboratory — in violation of a non-disclosure agreement — something he admitted to taking without permission and attempted to conceal,” she said.

[miami_fan]

Before I address this post, let's clean up some of the information in your prior post.

Orig supposedly up to 30,000 so missing how it evolved to 530k+

It was not supposed to be up to 30,000 total. It was 30,000 total a month across the four countries when it was revised to include Cuba, Haiti and Nicaragua (the CHN of the program). Venezuela had its own program before that and that was based on the parole program created for Ukraine. 541,150 people was vetted and authorized for travel and 531,690 people actually traveled and entered lawfully. The breakdown of that last group is as follows:

110,240 Cubans
211,040 Haitians
93,070 Nicaraguans
117,330 Venezuelans

FYI, the parole authority has been used at least once by every U.S. president sans Trump since it was authorized in 1952 and a total of 126 known orders have been issued.

Anyone want to guess what country had been granted the most paroles by the US?

Originally Posted by Edward64

• Yes, admitted legally
• But No, because they are not "legal immigrants". And therefore, my prior post on distinction between legal & illegal immigrants still stand.
• Also No, because the discussion we were having was Americans making the distinction (e.g. we discussed polls) and NOT just Trump

Nice try with the legalese. I specifically avoided the word "admitted" or "admission" because of what those words mean in the immigration sphere. What I said was that prior to this action, they were here legally. Full Stop. No need for any quotes. And as such, according to you, this would be a case where Americans would approve of this action. I look forward to the polling to see if this is the case.

A nation's view towards immigration is what creates immigration laws which determines what is considered legal and what is considered illegal. It does not work the other way around. That formation of that view include factors that we generally boast about and others that we would prefer not to be the case.

This case is an example of why I say there is no distinction. I doubt someone who supported this program and the people it granted parole before the administration took its latest actions stopped supporting it or them after those actions. Even more relevant, no one is surprised that by the lack of support by Americans for a legal program that "was designed to reduce illegal immigration at the U.S.-Mexico border by giving would-be migrants legal migration avenues." by people who don't want those people in the country. They did not support this legal program and have not only stop the program but stripped the people of their legal status. The administration just created illegal immigrants to demonize. Legal to illegal not because they broke any laws, but because the administration decided they were.

Finally, if as you suggested there is special dispensation for a certain group of people, that is even further evidence of the irrelevance of the distinction. If we want those people, whoever they may be, to come here, we will make it legal to do so and/or we will ignore/exploit their illegal status until such time and we can get the laws change to suit.

[GrantDawg]

In the hearing in front of the Court of Appeals about the Venezuelans deported under the Enemies Aliens Act one of the judges said:
"Nazis got better treatment under the Alien Enemies Act"


Yes, by design.

[RainMaker]

Of course they did. We even brought a bunch over and made them U.S. citizens after the war.

Reminder that in the 30's, the United States deported countless college students for protesting the Nazis. History tends to repeat itself.

[Atocep]

One of my wife's coworkers at UW has been in an ICE detention center for 3 weeks. She's lived here for over 50 years and has grandchildren here. She was flagged and detained on re-entry after a trip to the Philippines.

[JPhillips]

Homan admits to their being "collateral arrests" in Boston raids. In plain English that means false imprisonment.

[Flasch186]

They can just sue in court for their freedom


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[RainMaker]

Kidnapping

ICE Ramps Up Warrantless, Legally Dubious Arrests — ProPublica

[JPhillips]

ICE detained a graduate student at my daughter's college and have told the admin the student visa is being revoked. Not clear yet what the issue is.

[RainMaker]

Is it Tufts?

[JPhillips]

Yes. The video is shocking. We now have groups of plain clothes police detaining people and throwing them in cars. All, seemingly, for the "crime" of writing an op-ed they disagree with.

[RainMaker]

Like I said, our immigration policy is now centered around Israel. A humiliating end to a superpower.

[RainMaker]

One of the strange things is how authoritarian folks keep falling for the same mistakes. They always get in power and then banish intellectuals. And the irony is that these current folks worshipped the Germans of the 30's and 40's but can't put 2 and 2 together that a huge part of their downfall was banishing the scientists who could build the big bombs.

This is bad and all but I guess it also shows how incredibly fucking stupid these people are who constantly screech about how America needs to remain on top.

[RainMaker]

BREAKING: A Russian scientist who opposed Putin’s war, fled Russia & found work at Harvard was detained at Logan Airport returning from a French academic conference and has been sent to an immigration detention center in Louisiana for deportation to Russia https://t.co/tHRM015aMP

— Sir William Browder KCMG (@Billbrowder) March 27, 2025

[Atocep]

One of the people sold to slavery in El Salvador was a young father that ran a bakery and was labeled a gang member because of his autism awareness tattoo for his son.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay then, its confirmed. I guess you really do believe Israel has "full control of our immigration policies". I'll add that to the "la-la-land" list. Craziness, but you are entitled to your opinions, just don't portray them as fact if you cannot supply any non-twitter-like source.

lol

Just a moment...

[JPhillips]

My daughter was at iftar with one of her friends and someone started yelling that they were going to call ICE.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My daughter was at iftar with one of her friends and someone started yelling that they were going to call ICE.

Jesus. So sorry to hear that.

It is horrible what we have become

[miami_fan]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...302671624.html

The U.S. government claims on Reyes Mota’s I-213 form, a document the Department of Homeland Security uses to support that someone is deportable, that he “may be a Tren de Aragua associate.” But in those same documents, the government says he has no criminal records or immigration history in the United States. The government also uses someone else’s last name in several parts of the document, identifies him with female pronouns, and uses two different unique identification numbers that immigration authorities use to keep track of individuals, raising questions about the reliability of Trump officials’ accusations against him.

After Prada pointed out the mistakes and argued there is no evidence Reyes Mota was a Tren de Aragua member, the judge asked whether the government had made a mistake. Lawyers for the Department of Homeland Security said this was not a hearing to analyze evidence but that they would look into it. However, there are no more hearings for the foreseeable future.

I'm not familiar enough with the rules of entry for Tren De Aragua to know for sure if they only have Venezuelans in the gang or only associate with Venezuelans. However if that is the case, Jose Altuve and Ronald Acuna may want to start packing and their teammates may want to ostracize them so as not to be considered "associates".

[JPhillips]

Just like with migrant families last time, they have no concern as to whether they are brutalizing innocent people.

"The Trump administration acknowledged in a court filing Monday that it had grabbed a Maryland father with protected legal status and mistakenly deported him to El Salvador, but said that U.S. courts lack jurisdiction to order his return from the megaprison where he’s now locked up."

[GrantDawg]

In a rational world, that should cause a judge to pause the whole program. They are saying the government can send people to a prison out if the country with no due process and there is no recourse to return them even if they are sent in error. How can that be acceptable?

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[Ghost Econ]

{Insert family guy color swatch image}

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Just like with migrant families last time, they have no concern as to whether they are brutalizing innocent people.

But according to Edward he can just let the legal process play out and all will be good. Until the administration tells you they can't do anything about it now, which is of course a lie.

[Flasch186]

What do the courts say about it? I’m sure the guy can just ask.


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[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Lathum

But according to Edward he can just let the legal process play out and all will be good. Until the administration tells you they can't do anything about it now, which is of course a lie.

Less than a week after Vance stood on Greenland ground and threatened an ally with annexation and Trump made the case on Ukraine that they had to fold because they don't have the cards, the government is actually saying they are powerless to have El Salvador return a prisoner we sent them by mistake.

I really wish our system had the balls to hold the people making these arguments accountable. You may not completely stop Trump and the like from all of their plans, but if all of these attorneys lost their licenses for making sanctionable arguments, or were thrown in jail for lying about not knowing answers to judges' questions, a lot of these bad faith shenanigans would stop.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

In a rational world, that should cause a judge to pause the whole program. They are saying the government can send people to a prison out if the country with no due process and there is no recourse to return them even if they are sent in error. How can that be acceptable?

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Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Less than a week after Vance stood on Greenland ground and threatened an ally with annexation and Trump made the case on Ukraine that they had to fold because they don't have the cards, the government is actually saying they are powerless to have El Salvador return a prisoner we sent them by mistake.

I really wish our system had the balls to hold the people making these arguments accountable. You may not completely stop Trump and the like from all of their plans, but if all of these attorneys lost their licenses for making sanctionable arguments, or were thrown in jail for lying about not knowing answers to judges' questions, a lot of these bad faith shenanigans would stop.

Are they saying they are powerless? Or are they saying they can't be forced to - implying that they want to?

[Ksyrup]

They are saying they are powerless.

[Atocep]

By powerless they mean they were paid $6 million by El Salvador to deliver X amount of prisoners and they fulfilled their end of the contract and don't want to break it.

[JPhillips]

They can force Denmark to give us Greenland but they can't do anything about an innocent guy we're paying the Salvadorans to torture. Absurd.

[QuikSand]

Maryland man mistakenly deported to El Salvador, ICE admits - The Baltimore Banner

Calling it an “oversight” through “administrative error,” the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement admitted this week it had mistakenly deported a Maryland father to a prison in El Salvador, according to a court filing.

However, the Trump administration now says the federal courts in the U.S. lack the power to have the man returned.

Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia — a Salvadoran residing in Beltsville with his spouse, who is a U.S. citizen, and their five-year-old special needs child — was deported from the United States on March 15 despite a grant of formal protection from an immigration judge six years ago.