NFL Week 8 Discussion Thread: Randy Moss Claimed on Waivers by the Titans

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Nope...why would you assume this? What does me saying Moss gets safety help on every play, have anything to do with other receivers? You're taking two separate comments I make, and trying to meld them into one.

Try again.

Moss has been amazing in years past, but this year he can't beat the double team.

That wasn't your point that was his.

NFL coaches, notably Bill Bellichick this past week, have clearly gameplanned with the assumption that Randy Moss is STILL a deep threat. Are you saying they're wrong?

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Brett Favre CAN'T throw those deep bombs any more.

No, he can. They just end up getting picked off.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

That wasn't your point that was his.

NFL coaches, notably Bill Bellichick this past week, have clearly gameplanned with the assumption that Randy Moss is STILL a deep threat. Are you saying they're wrong?

I'm saying that they're shutting him down deep.

Anything else you want to assume, go right ahead, but just know you're doing it under your own false pretenses.

[jbergey22]

I guess Chris Johnson must suck this year. He hasnt broken off near the 50+ yard runs this year. It certainly would have nothing to do with how teams have decided to defend him to prevent his big play ability.

[Sun Tzu]

Broken logic bergey.

[Travis]

I think in the end what you've got here is a grey area. Moss isn't the deep threat he used to be, but he's still respected enough by defenses to influence their coverages because while he likely can't dominate a game the way he used to, he can still dominate a play.

More about the frequency that he can perform at an elite level more so than whether he can or not period. The problem for the defenses is that you're never quite sure when those plays will be so better to be safe than sorry with your coverage.

So personal stats have declined but coverages haven't at the same rate so the protection other players on the same offense due to his being on the field are greater than that of a replacement level receiver who could produce similar numbers to what Moss is doing now but never achieved what he has in the past.

The real question now is whether that protection and defensive respect is worth whatever baggage/locker room issues he may or may not bring with him. When his personal stats were at their peak that question is probably not asked nearly as often.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I'm saying that they're shutting him down deep.

Anything else you want to assume, go right ahead, but just know you're doing it under your own false pretenses.

If theyre working so hard to shut him down then wouldnt that mean he is at least a THREAT? If he wasnt then they wouldnt bother because he wouldnt be able to do it anyway.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Broken logic bergey.

Indeed it is. But we needed to get your focus off of individual stats.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by chadritt

If theyre working so hard to shut him down then wouldnt that mean he is at least a THREAT? If he wasnt then they wouldnt bother because he wouldnt be able to do it anyway.

He's obviously not a very productive deep THREAT anymore then, is he? Remember when he use to beat the safety help at least once a game? How exactly, (for the umpteenth time I'll ask this, though I don't know why I keep doing it) would you explain how his production has dropped off so steeply this year? He's been open downfield, but they don't want to throw to him? Brett Favre can't throw very far anymore? Please. Cunningham would underthrow balls by 15 yards, which Moss would come back for, jump over 2 guys to catch, then race to the endzone.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Indeed it is. But we needed to get your focus off of individual stats.

Well, since we're throwing individual stats out the window, lets go back to the "Brett Favre is the greatest QB evar" debate.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

He's obviously not a very productive deep THREAT anymore then, is he? Remember when he use to beat the safety help at least once a game? How exactly, (for the umpteenth time I'll ask this, though I don't know why I keep doing it) would you explain how his production has dropped off so steeply this year? He's been open downfield, but they don't want to throw to him? Brett Favre can't throw very far anymore? Please. Cunningham would underthrow balls by 15 yards, which Moss would come back for, jump over 2 guys to catch, then race to the endzone.

While I cant speak of what the Pats were doing however Favre didnt take the chances deep to him which I figured he would. That is what made Moss so special was he could still make plays in double coverage when nothing else was there. When the QB/coach doesnt give him opportunities to make these plays it goes without saying that his production will go down.

Keep in mind that the Vikings have Adrian Peterson who is one of the 2-3 best backs in the NFL so chucking it into double coverage isnt maybe the best play while the Pats have one of the most accurate/smart QBs to play the game so perhaps he didnt feel the need to chuck it up into double coverage either.

[thesloppy]

Favre is #40 in terms of longest pass completed, with 37 yards as his longest. He's also completed 1 out of 11 passes thrown over 30 yards, and 0 out of 4 for 40 yards +, for whatever that's worth.

[SirFozzie]

Forget it. We all have areas we're not going to agree with each other, this is like arguing college football with MBBF or Poilitics with JonInMiddleGA, or me on various things.. it's better for the blood pressure just to drop it

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Well, since we're throwing individual stats out the window, lets go back to the "Brett Favre is the greatest QB evar" debate.

I dont know if Id even have Favre in my top 10 ever.

Manning, Brady, Unitas, Montana, Marino, Young, Brees, Aikman, John Elway, and Fran Tarkenton just off the top of my head Id have ahead of Favre.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

How exactly, (for the umpteenth time I'll ask this, though I don't know why I keep doing it) would you explain how his production has dropped off so steeply this year?

He only played 4 games with the Patriots and did have 4 TD catches. Might be a little early to write him off completely - obviously the coaches haven't. Though I'm not quite sure exactly how bad you're arguing he is (except to say that no other team should claim him on waivers). Are you saying that he just isn't good enough to be in the league anymore? What is his upside in the perfect situation right now? 900 yards, 10 TDs? Isn't that still pretty helpful?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JS19

Mike Shanahan says Donovan McNabb not in shape for 2-minute drill - ESPN

Has Shannahan gone batshit crazy?

But Shannahan is right. McNabb has been one of the worse 2-minute drill QB I have ever seen (for supposedly star QBs), esp. going back to the Eagles playoff games.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

This all started because Sun Tzu called him a possession receiver, which I have come to believe he thinks means bad receiver. He is not a possession receiver. It's not his game. He's a deep threat, not as good as he once was, but still one that demands additional attention which opens things up underneath. Were a defense to go single on him or not give him much of a cushion he can still be very dangerous.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

That is what made Moss so special was he could still make plays in double coverage when nothing else was there. When the QB/coach doesnt give him opportunities to make these plays it goes without saying that his production will go down.

Keep in mind that the Vikings have Adrian Peterson who is one of the 2-3 best backs in the NFL so chucking it into double coverage isnt maybe the best play while the Pats have one of the most accurate/smart QBs to play the game so perhaps he didnt feel the need to chuck it up into double coverage either.

I agree in full with the first quoted sentence.

I strongly disagree with the notion that, on a pass play, a professional QB will refrain from chucking the ball downfield to the greatest deep threat in NFL history, because one of the "2-3 best backs in the NFL" is pass blocking/in the flats. I played four years at Quarterback, and that in no way, shape or form makes me more of an expert than any professional coach/player. The reason I mention this, is that I know the difference between a Wideout who can stretch the field and one who can't, because I have lived it. Moss this year has been mediocre at best. The "zero deep passes" statistics that you keep throwing out there only reinforce what I'm saying.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

But Shannahan is right. McNabb has been one of the worse 2-minute drill QB I have ever seen (for supposedly star QBs), esp. going back to the Eagles playoff games.

Yes, but HE'S STILL BETTER THAN REX FUCKING GROSSMAN!

They had the stats on SportsCenter.

REX FUCKING GROSSMAN MAN!

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

He only played 4 games with the Patriots and did have 4 TD catches. Might be a little early to write him off completely - obviously the coaches haven't. Though I'm not quite sure exactly how bad you're arguing he is (except to say that no other team should claim him on waivers). Are you saying that he just isn't good enough to be in the league anymore? What is his upside in the perfect situation right now? 900 yards, 10 TDs? Isn't that still pretty helpful?

I'm not writing him off, nor am I saying he shouldn't be in the league. I'm saying that he's no longer effective at what he's been doing for years (and in all actuality, the only thing he's ever been good at). He's been relegated to a possession receiver, albeit a shoddy one. Upside? At this point, I'd guess 60 catches, 750-800 yards, 8-9 TD's. That's about on point with a #2 wideout on a running team, or a #3 wideout on a passing team. Again...he's mediocre at best.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

This all started because Sun Tzu called him a possession receiver, which I have come to believe he thinks means bad receiver. He is not a possession receiver. It's not his game. He's a deep threat, not as good as he once was, but still one that demands additional attention which opens things up underneath. Were a defense to go single on him or not give him much of a cushion he can still be very dangerous.

No, I fully understand the what a possession receiver is. I agree that's not his game, but he's not good enough to be effective in "his game" anymore. He's a possession receiver not by choice, but by default. Rice accepted it toward the end of his career, and wound up becoming one of the best in the league. I just think Moss is too stubborn to change his game, which will keep him stuck in the mud as an ineffective/unproductive wideout who runs far too many 9's than he should, and gives up on underneath routes if he can't see the QB's eyes.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Nah...I'm just looking at him like a has-been Wideout who use to be great, but can't cut it anymore. You're telling me that his stats this year and being cut by two teams are purely coincidental?

Didn't someone project his season out to 750 yards and 9 or 10 TDs? Nine TD production will definitely get you cut from most teams.
I'm guessing, given some of his play that I saw this year, plus the coverages that teams continue to throw at him, that his getting cut by two teams has very little to do with his play on the field. Rather, that he is some sort of virulent plague in the locker room.



I should have stayed out of this. Really, I can see one guy beating his head against the wall, trying to defend what most everyone else considers indefensible. I just couldn't resist.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I agree in full with the first quoted sentence.

I strongly disagree with the notion that, on a pass play, a professional QB will refrain from chucking the ball downfield to the greatest deep threat in NFL history, because one of the "2-3 best backs in the NFL" is pass blocking/in the flats. I played four years at Quarterback, and that in no way, shape or form makes me more of an expert than any professional coach/player. The reason I mention this, is that I know the difference between a Wideout who can stretch the field and one who can't, because I have lived it. Moss this year has been mediocre at best. The "zero deep passes" statistics that you keep throwing out there only reinforce what I'm saying.

Fair enough

But the Pats were winning games so they didnt need to take needless chances. I always get the impression that Childress is a control freak and wouldnt allow for something not scripted in the offense. He sure is the wrong frikin coach to have Favre as his qb and Moss as his WR knowing how controlling he loves to be. I am very disappointed as I thought Favre(not afraid to chuck it up into triple coverage) and Moss(one of the best of all time at making catches in traffic) would have been a match made perfect for each other.

[theclassic]

The Saints victory last night adds the Saints to the list of teams that have won games between previous Super Bowl winners.

Only 14 other teams have done so in the history of the NFL. I posted all the results on my blog if anybody is interested.

When Super Bowl winners meet. « SportsDelve.com

[johnnyshaka]

I seem to recall Favre chucking it in Moss' direction a few times in the that Jets game and I also remember Favre wincing in pain, holding his right elbow, at the end of that one. Could it be that Favre just can't heave it like Randy needs it to be heaved?

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Forget it. We all have areas we're not going to agree with each other, this is like arguing college football with MBBF or Poilitics with JonInMiddleGA, or me on various things.. it's better for the blood pressure just to drop it

This is similar to the old saying... If you can't spot the troll on the forum, it must be you.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I seem to recall Favre chucking it in Moss' direction a few times in the that Jets game and I also remember Favre wincing in pain, holding his right elbow, at the end of that one. Could it be that Favre just can't heave it like Randy needs it to be heaved?

Doubtful...all you have to do is watch his first two years in the league. Half of what made Moss so great was his ability to catch terribly underthrown passes from Randal Cunningham every game, while in double coverage, and still turn run another 20 yards to paydirt.

[jbergey22]

ESPN's Adam Schefter is "being told" that Randy Moss is open to returning to Minnesota.

Our View: In case you haven't heard, Moss is reportedly set to be waived tomorrow, a decision apparently made solely by coach Brad Childress. Other sources have stated that Vikings brass doesn't necessarily agree with the decision, and since Moss hasn't officially been waived, there's a small chance he'll never be released by Minnesota. Still, after the receiver's strange comments yesterday coupled with Childress's reported claims of not wanting him around, we'd be very surprised if he ended up wearing purple ever again. Stay tuned.

ESPN's Adam Schefter is "being told" that Randy Moss is open to returning to Minnesota.

In case you haven't heard, Moss is reportedly set to be waived tomorrow, a decision apparently made solely by coach Brad Childress. Other sources have stated that Vikings brass doesn't necessarily agree with the decision, and since Moss hasn't officially been waived, there's a small chance he'll never be released by Minnesota. Still, after the receiver's strange comments yesterday coupled with Childress's reported claims of not wanting him around, we'd be very surprised if he ended up wearing purple ever again. Stay tuned.

From rototimes

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I'm busy looking at Suicide Girls.

Well played...

[Sun Tzu]

Speaking of Ogre-like posting.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

In re: to getting other guys open, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. In years past, sure I bet he was great at it. This year? I'd argue he's not doing it any better than anyone else that can run a streak. Again...I stated this multiple times.

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

He doesn't need to to make his team better.

Cosign on Scoobz here.

Sun Tzu is making 2 arguments as I see it - one that Randy Moss isn't any good as a deep threat, and one that this makes him a possession receiver. The first one is wrong imo, but at least debatable, while the second is batshit crazy and makes me think you have a very different definition of "possession receiver" than the commonly accepted one of a player that gets a lot of catches, primarily short of 12 yards down the field.

The Patriots used him as a deep threat and red zone target. The Vikings had him running deep routes (and probably should have used him as a red zone target instead of getting stuffed running the ball). The Dolphins and Jets singled up Moss but every other team rolls that extra safety over the top. Even if Moss can't beat double coverage (and the DPI on Meriwether would seem to indicate that he can) he can not bother running a route and he's still helping the rest of the offense because they are playing 10 vs. 9. As someone who knows a little about coaching football and has watched every Patriots game, they were better on offense with him, and the stats back it up. From watching 3 Vikings games, they looked better on offense with Moss than without him, and the stats (albeit in a small sample size) back it up. Maybe he's not worth the off-field issues (certainly not if you're Brad Childress and you've already lost control of your team), and he's definitely not as good as he was 3 years ago, but he certainly does not play as, nor is treated by opposing defenses as, a "possession receiver".

[JS19]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

But Shannahan is right. McNabb has been one of the worse 2-minute drill QB I have ever seen (for supposedly star QBs), esp. going back to the Eagles playoff games.

Very well might be, don't really follow McNabb so I have no clue how he performs in the 2-minute. Initially, I found it amusing that, according to him, his two star players are out of shape.

As I was thinking on a serious note.... we are 7-8 weeks, whatever it is, into the season. Why is he still out of shape? Was Shannahan just hoping they would never have to run the 2-minute drill?

[Draft Dodger]

can we waive Sun Tzu?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JS19

Very well might be, don't really follow McNabb so I have no clue how he performs in the 2-minute. Initially, I found it amusing that, according to him, his two star players are out of shape.

As I was thinking on a serious note.... we are 7-8 weeks, whatever it is, into the season. Why is he still out of shape? Was Shannahan just hoping they would never have to run the 2-minute drill?

I think he could be refering to being out of shape mentally more than physically, which makes sense to me.

But I also agree that Grossman may not be an improvement.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I think he could be refering to being out of shape mentally more than physically, which makes sense to me.

But I also agree that Grossman may not be an improvement.

He specifically said McNabb didn't have the cardiovascular endurance for it, partially due to the ankle injury he's had the last few weeks.

[stevew]

Wasn't Jerry Rice always a possession receiver?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Even if Moss can't beat double coverage (and the DPI on Meriwether would seem to indicate that he can) he can not bother running a route and he's still helping the rest of the offense because they are playing 10 vs. 9.

Actually, now that I think about it that was the one play all game where we sent a corner blitz and had single coverage on Moss. And of course, it was a huge win for the Vikings (25 yards to inside the 10)

[stevew]

RE Childress;
I'm beyond merely wanting to see him get fired. I want him to suffer real pain.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

as a cuse native i'm required by law to have a mother's love for mcnabb but it's been tough. you start running out of excuses.

i will say i don't think it was ever his intention to re-sign in was. and that may be affecting his motivation (remember shanny traded for plummer, sang his praises then drafted cutler a year later) but still. he's been really really bad.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Actually, now that I think about it that was the one play all game where we sent a corner blitz and had single coverage on Moss. And of course, it was a huge win for the Vikings (25 yards to inside the 10)

Exactly!

If Sun Tzu had seen the Vikings play the first 3 weeks of the season he would have known Favre played most of them 3 games on his backside. Now with Moss limiting the other teams blitz schemes he atleast can get passes off which may not be such a great thing either. Its whatever at this point in regards to the Vikings as they have fucked up this season themselves but a team that claims Moss will be getting a nice addition despite what his numbers say thus far this season.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by stevew

RE Childress;
I'm beyond merely wanting to see him get fired. I want him to suffer real pain.

It would be nice to see him get fired on Christmas Eve, but I don't want to see him on the sidelines that long.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by stevew

RE Childress;
I'm beyond merely wanting to see him get fired. I want him to suffer real pain.

he's no longer a downfield threat, but he's still an okay possession coach

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

as a cuse native i'm required by law to have a mother's love for mcnabb but it's been tough. you start running out of excuses.

i will say i don't think it was ever his intention to re-sign in was. and that may be affecting his motivation (remember shanny traded for plummer, sang his praises then drafted cutler a year later) but still. he's been really really bad.

As a Cuse native myself, which McNabb is not, he has pretty much underachieved in the NFL compared to his expectations. Sort of an embarassment for being an ex-Orangemen.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I'm busy looking at Suicide Girls.

See the original thread...I found her.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

As a Cuse native myself, which McNabb is not, he has pretty much underachieved in the NFL compared to his expectations. Sort of an embarassment for being an ex-Orangemen.

I wouldn't say embarrassment, but the thing that bugged me about him was his hangup about not being, in his mind, just a "black QB" that ran the ball. He largely put that skill on the shelf when he went to the NFL. It's pretty amazing what he's accomplished without that. But he definitely could have been more. Somewhere in the middle of his pro career, he seemed to get really fat and slow - almost a self-fulfilling prophecy or something where then he had no choice but to drop back and be a pocket passer.

After watching almost every game he played in college, every time I've ever seen him in his pro career he just looked SLOW.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

As a Cuse native myself, which McNabb is not, he has pretty much underachieved in the NFL compared to his expectations. Sort of an embarassment for being an ex-Orangemen.

is this a troll? that's just silly. no one i know feels that way.

ftr- tim couch, akili smth, cade mcnown, daunte culpepper

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

which McNabb is not

mike hart is playing. he's a cuse native. but i could give a fuck if he spontaneously combusts because he went to michigan.

[sovereignstar v2]

If Childress isn't fired before the offseason gets kicking, I'm getting my cheese on. I am not even fucking kidding.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by molson

I wouldn't say embarrassment, but the thing that bugged me about him was his hangup about not being, in his mind, just a "black QB" that ran the ball. He largely put that skill on the shelf when he went to the NFL. It's pretty amazing what he's accomplished without that. But he definitely could have been more. Somewhere in the middle of his pro career, he seemed to get really fat and slow - almost a self-fulfilling prophecy or something where then he had no choice but to drop back and be a pocket passer.

After watching almost every game he played in college, every time I've ever seen him in his pro career he just looked SLOW.

I would think he got slow right about the time he busted his ankle during the 2002-03 season...I'd hardly call that "putting that skill on the shelf" when he had it taken away from him.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I would think he got slow right about the time he busted his ankle during the 2002-03 season...I'd hardly call that "putting that skill on the shelf" when he had it taken away from him.

Exactly, people forget the injuries he suffered that took away some of his speed. Before those, he won plenty of games with his legs.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The only thing that could make this better is if Childress' ineptness should cause him to submit the name "Adrian Peterson" instead of "Randy Moss" on the waiver.

Or if the rest of the team called a meeting and invited the owner to sit in, so they could ask him to fire the Child instead of kicking Moss to the curb. I actually think that at this point that could be the only thing that might save the season.