Pope's quote/comments on Islam

[Edward64]

I'm not sure I understand the fuss. The western news sites seem to have the quote but don't explain the context of why the Pope quoted the book (see below).

The pope quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th-century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," Benedict said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."'

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213930,00.html

On the surface, if the Pope quoted a passage of the book, I don't understand the problem and will chalk this up to an overreaction.

Does anyone know the context of why the Pope quoted this text?

[st.cronin]

The headline starts "Religious leaders across mideast rage..."

So you know it's probably not about anything important.

[WVUFAN]

They're gonna riot over anything, so it's not surprising this does it.

When a group of people throw a fit over a cartoon, they're not all there to begin with.

[Edward64]

The headline starts "Religious leaders across mideast rage..."

So you know it's probably not about anything important.

They're gonna riot over anything, so it's not surprising this does it.

When a group of people throw a fit over a cartoon, they're not all there to begin with.

St. Cronin and WVUFAN Your quotes above seem to indicate a 'contempt' for the muslim indignation. Is this correct?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Edward64

St. Cronin and WVUFAN Your quotes above seem to indicate a 'contempt' for the muslim indignation. Is this correct?

Not exactly. Look, it's perfectly ok for anybody to feel aggrieved or insulted by whatever. I have my sensitive spots as well. My point was simply that "mideast Muslim leaders" have a strong tendency to teach that everything bad that happens is somebody else's fault.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Edward64

St. Cronin and WVUFAN Your quotes above seem to indicate a 'contempt' for the muslim indignation. Is this correct?

In my case, it's entirely correct. It's a small group of people (Islamic extremists) making an entire religion look bad.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the biggest fan of the religion to begin with, but this certainly doesn't endear it to the general populace when they bitch over ANYTHING remotely derrogatory towards the religion. This is in many ways similar to extremist Christians (that moronic group in Kansas who pickets funerals as an example -- snakehandlers in my area as another example) doing quite frankly idiotic things that casts a shadow over everyone who follows that same religion.

For a group that demands that others be respectful of what they are, they have no tolerance for criticism. You don't get it both ways.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Full text of the speech here.

Key excerpt:

In the seventh conversation (*4V8,>4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Full text of the speech here.

Key excerpt:

I don't see a single thing wrong with what he said. He's teaching against forced conversion. Makes sense to me.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

You'd think with all the fuss he drew a picture of the guy or something...

[stevew]

Benedict is just making a power play so he can control the gallactic senate.

[stevew]

These guys are fucking pissed~!

[Oilers9911]

1) If a non-muslim even says the word Muslim or Mohammed there will be a riot.
2) The Pope and the Catholic church have their heads up their asses regardless.

Sits back and prepares to be char broiled in flames.

[MIJB#19]

I still can't understand how someone says Islam is all about violence and the next day people are buring flags and images of that person in name of Islam. It almost makes me think these people have been told "He said we don't do violence, show us we are all about it!"

[dbd1963]

Dudes, the Pope just said Muhammad was evil. Don't you think they would be a little pissed? When a pre-eminent muslim holy man says Jesus was evil, I think you will understand just how far down these things go.. we'd have riots here in the US over that. The Pope is supposed to be smart enough not to start crap like that, unless he's of the opinion Jesus can't come until the big war starts, and W hasn't been pulling his own weight..

Organized religions are a lot of trouble lately..

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

When a pre-eminent muslim holy man says Jesus was evil, I think you will understand just how far down these things go.. we'd have riots here in the US over that.

No, we absolutely would not.

[dbd1963]

Yes, we absolutely would. I can't believe you don't know the people you live with!

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Yes, we absolutely would. I can't believe you don't know the people you live with!

There's people who say negative things about Christianity and Jesus constantly, and you don't see riots.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Yes, we absolutely would. I can't believe you don't know the people you live with!

Oh, ok. When was the last time something like that happened here? I must have forgot about it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Yes, we absolutely would. I can't believe you don't know the people you live with!

I agree with WVUFAN and st.cronin, we absolutely would not "riot".

I can't help but feel the Muslim faith is going through their era of 'crusades' whereas Christianity has progressed beyond.

This is NOT to say one faith is better, more correct etc. than the other. It is to say one faith's follower's has progressed and evolved beyond violence and the need to impose its will by the sword/threats.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

There's people who say negative things about Christianity and Jesus constantly, and you don't see riots.

I think I come down on the side that feels that followers of Islam have every right to be angry and have every right to protest. When those protests turn violent however, as in the case of the riots over the infamous cartoon, it feeds the stereotype and makes Islam look bad.

I don't believe that Christianity or Christian leaders are particulary more tolerant or peaceful than Islam, and there are the fundamentalist nutjobs that give the religion as a whole a bad rap.

That being said, if the Pope or an Islamic leader were to speak out strongly against Protestant Christianity, you'd hear a backlash, and maybe some ridiculous banter from the Pat Robertsons of the world, but I cannot for a minute believe there would ever be rioting in the streets.

[AZSpeechCoach]

Well, John Lennon almost derailed his career here with the remarks about being bigger than Jesus, and his were taken more out of context than anything Benedict said.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I agree with WVUFAN and st.cronin, we absolutely would not "riot".

I can't help but feel the Muslim faith is going through their era of 'crusades' whereas Christianity has progressed beyond.

This is NOT to say one faith is better, more correct etc. than the other. It is to say one faith's follower's has progressed and evolved beyond violence and the need to impose its will by the sword/threats.

I don't know if I would agree with either one of those statements. The "crusades" were not purely aggresive wars waged by Christians. The actual reality is more nuanced than that; there were aggresions and atrocities committed by Muslims in that era as well.

And while I am reluctant to say that one faith is better than another, there is something disturbing about the way Islam is presented, particularly it's emphasis that God only speaks/understands Arabic, and also it's emphasis on material and sexual rewards for righteousness.

I suspect/hope that what is happening in Islam now is more like the changes Luther brought to the Church, where the religion was no longer 'working' at the social level, and needed to adapt.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Dudes, the Pope just said Muhammad was evil. Don't you think they would be a little pissed? When a pre-eminent muslim holy man says Jesus was evil, I think you will understand just how far down these things go.. we'd have riots here in the US over that. The Pope is supposed to be smart enough not to start crap like that, unless he's of the opinion Jesus can't come until the big war starts, and W hasn't been pulling his own weight..

Organized religions are a lot of trouble lately..

dola ...

Mojo Jojo posted the excerpt for what he said. If you read it, you would know that's NOT what the Pope said. What he said, and I agree, is that any religion that believes in conversion by violence is not doing God's will.

But it seems you, Muslims (not surprising), and the media didn't bother to read his speech and take his comments in context.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Oh, ok. When was the last time something like that happened here? I must have forgot about it.

Well, if you wanted riots in the streets, we had a few big ones in the 60s, but not for religious reasons. Since then, there have been various riots in reaction to, if memory is still working, perceived police misbehavior in California and Philladelphia. And there are the "after Superbowl" celebratory riots. So rioting is not foreign to us. During the 2000 Florida debacle, there was a small, but well publicized "riot" while the counts were going on. Americans like to assemble and yell, but that's not the worst that would come of it.

Yes, people do criticize Christianity, but we're looking for an equivalent to a Pope here. I don't know if you can find one easily now, but the Ayatolla Khomeni (sp?) would have been comparable in his day.

I mean, we're not too far away from "freedom fries" and that whole "Kick Iraq's butt because we are angry, and we can!" Right now Americans are skeptical of any more war, but if someone over there started dissing Christ, a lot of opinions would change over night.

Now, if your point is that we wouldn't riot like them because we are civilized and they are not..

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Well, if you wanted riots in the streets, we had a few big ones in the 60s, but not for religious reasons. Since then, there have been various riots in reaction to, if memory is still working, perceived police misbehavior in California and Philladelphia. And there are the "after Superbowl" celebratory riots. So rioting is not foreign to us. During the 2000 Florida debacle, there was a small, but well publicized "riot" while the counts were going on. Americans like to assemble and yell, but that's not the worst that would come of it.

Yes, people do criticize Christianity, but we're looking for an equivalent to a Pope here. I don't know if you can find one easily now, but the Ayatolla Khomeni (sp?) would have been comparable in his day.

I mean, we're not too far away from "freedom fries" and that whole "Kick Iraq's butt because we are angry, and we can!" Right now Americans are skeptical of any more war, but if someone over there started dissing Christ, a lot of opinions would change over night.

Now, if your point is that we wouldn't riot like them because we are civilized and they are not..

Yes, it was so upsetting when we renamed our french fries. That really horrified the world.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

dola ...

Mojo Jojo posted the excerpt for what he said. If you read it, you would know that's NOT what the Pope said. What he said, and I agree, is that any religion that believes in conversion by violence is not doing God's will.

But it seems you, Muslims (not surprising), and the media didn't bother to read his speech and take his comments in context.

I did read it, and the context of the words is this:

1. The Pope said them in his official capacity as Pope
2. The Pope said the words in public

Any idiot could have detected in advance the passage that would inflame the Muslim world. Do not for a second believe that, if the Pope didn't see this coming, one of his advisors didn't. You can't say, particularly in the world climate as it is now, that Mohammed brought evil when he uttered his divinely inspired words and not understand that you are causing problems.

[Edward64]

Sorry dbd1963, your rebuttal about riots in the US has nothing to do with your original premise.

When a pre-eminent muslim holy man says Jesus was evil, I think you will understand just how far down these things go.. we'd have riots here in the US over that.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Yes, it was so upsetting when we renamed our french fries. That really horrified the world.

That's not really all that went on, is it? Wasn't there a lot of nationalistic "rah rah" going on then, renaming French fries being a symbol of it? Not to say anything about the misdirection play that was at the root of it all, which never could have worked if the nation wasn't seething with (justifiable) rage.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Sorry dbd1963, your rebuttal about riots in the US has nothing to do with your original premise.

I thought it showed that Americans would riot, but maybe that wasn't at issue after all. I'm not a history buff, but I can't think of any religious riots in the last decades, so perhaps I'm all wrong. Nobody would riot if Jesus got dissed.

I bet we'd get our war on tho.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

That's not really all that went on, is it? Wasn't there a lot of nationalistic "rah rah" going on then, renaming French fries being a symbol of it? Not to say anything about the misdirection play that was at the root of it all, which never could have worked if the nation wasn't seething with (justifiable) rage.

You have a hard time staying on topic.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

dola ...

Mojo Jojo posted the excerpt for what he said. If you read it, you would know that's NOT what the Pope said. What he said, and I agree, is that any religion that believes in conversion by violence is not doing God's will.

Well that was the general theme of his speech, but in fairness he did employ and endorse (without any qualifications) a quote that said that Mohammed's only contributions were evil and inhuman. If he had qualified the quote to note that he didn't agree with that part, you could argue that it was taken out of context, but as it is I don't think you have to read it out of context to find it offensive. That part of the quote was entirely unnecessary to the point he was making, and seemed a rather gratuitous cheap shot...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

You have a hard time staying on topic.

That isn't unusual with trolls.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I did read it, and the context of the words is this:

1. The Pope said them in his official capacity as Pope
2. The Pope said the words in public

Any idiot could have detected in advance the passage that would inflame the Muslim world. Do not for a second believe that, if the Pope didn't see this coming, one of his advisors didn't. You can't say, particularly in the world climate as it is now, that Mohammed brought evil when he uttered his divinely inspired words and not understand that you are causing problems.

So, lemme get this right:

We're all (and this includes religious leaders) supposed to never criticize any aspect of Islam for fear of riots, but Islamic leaders are free to say, for example, that all Jews should die, or that the Holocaust never happened, or any such nonsense?

Bullshit. The Pope was RIGHT in his words, and I'm glad his refuses to retract them.

[dbd1963]

I'm a troll all of a sudden? That's kida riotous of you all, ganging up on poor little me.. There's a riot in this thread!

Look, I believe there'd be lots of trouble if the Muslim Pope, whoever that is, called Jesus the bringer of evil. I think it's defensible, but maybe nobody would riot in the streets, maybe it'd just be a lot of noise on internet chat rooms and bbs.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That isn't unusual with trolls.

JonInMiddleGA I sincerely would like to hear more from dbd1963. I think his point of view on this event is probably shared by the rioters and I want to understand their pov.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I'm a troll all of a sudden? That's kida riotous of you all, ganging up on poor little me.. There's a riot in this thread!

Look, I believe there'd be lots of trouble if the Muslim Pope, whoever that is, called Jesus the bringer of evil. I think it's defensible, but maybe nobody would riot in the streets, maybe it'd just be a lot of noise on internet chat rooms and bbs.

I take it you don't know much about Islam. Or, for that matter, Christianity.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

I'm a troll all of a sudden? That's kida riotous of you all, ganging up on poor little me.. There's a riot in this thread!

Look, I believe there'd be lots of trouble if the Muslim Pope, whoever that is, called Jesus the bringer of evil. I think it's defensible, but maybe nobody would riot in the streets, maybe it'd just be a lot of noise on internet chat rooms and bbs.

. If I'm reading this right, you just said that saying Jesus is the bringer of evil is "defensible". If that's right, I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

And, no, there wouldn't be riots on the street if a high cleric of the Islam faith said something negative about Jesus (which would NEVER happen, since Jesus is a Prophet in Islam, but I digress). There wouldn't be riots on the street if a cartoon depicts Jesus as an evil figure (which has happened MANY times).

But you miss the point -- the Pope never said Muhammed was evil. Read the entire snippet.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

So, lemme get this right:

We're all (and this includes religious leaders) supposed to never criticize any aspect of Islam for fear of riots, but Islamic leaders are free to say, for example, that all Jews should die, or that the Holocaust never happened, or any such nonsense?

Bullshit. The Pope was RIGHT in his words, and I'm glad his refuses to retract them.

I see why trolls like to troll because then people keep asking you questions and they get all the attention. Frankly, I don't want your attention if you are going to say things like that.. because the Pope is just the Pope, not all religious leaders (and I don't think anyone said anything about all religious leaders doing this or that, did they?) and the Pope wasn't criticising Islam, he flat out said Muhammed was evil. He didn't say (or didn't stop at saying) "You ought to try to get your people to, you know, be more peaceful." That would be (good) criticism.

You understand, I hope, the vast difference between you saying something about Islam and the Pope doing it? I believe the Pope should never say words that would inflame people, as it is his job to convert them. I think Paul said something about that, in a totally different context, about never doing that thing that will upset the converts, even if it is a thing permitted to you, because we are in this for the converts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

JonInMiddleGA I sincerely would like to hear more from dbd1963.

Well, nobody is stopping him from posting, nor you from listening to the troll if you choose to.

I think it seriously calls your judgement into reason, but hey, that's your biz too.

[dbd1963]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

. If I'm reading this right, you just said that saying Jesus is the bringer of evil is "defensible".

What?

Thus endeth my time in this thread.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

That being said, if the Pope or an Islamic leader were to speak out strongly against Protestant Christianity, you'd hear a backlash, and maybe some ridiculous banter from the Pat Robertsons of the world, but I cannot for a minute believe there would ever be rioting in the streets.

This, I think is absolutely correct. These reactions are revealing. I recently Lawrence Wright (author of The Looming Tower) speak on Al Qaeda and Islamic militants, and part of the discussion centered on the deep-seated sense of cultural humiliation felt by Arabs and Muslims. According to Wright the history of this starts as far back as the defeat of Sultan Suleiman at Vienna in the 16th Century, and proceeds through colonial domination and Cold War manipulation to the present day. The humiliation of Islam by the West is apparently a favorite topic for Bin Laden and a strong draw on the young men who join him. It is also the reason for the powerful reactions to perceived Western insults against Islam.

It seems to me that some sensitivity is warranted, not because we should bow to extremism, but it seems irresponsible to needlessly throw fuel on the flames. Muslims need to get over this humiliation, and I'm not sure we help them with that by providing them with more evidence of our contempt. Moderate voices are hardest to hear when people have their blood up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

... he flat out said Muhammed was evil.

Except that isn't what he said.

More the pity, 'cause it's about time somebody spoke directly on the subject, but he didn't.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by dbd1963

Look, I believe there'd be lots of trouble if the Muslim Pope, whoever that is, called Jesus the bringer of evil. I think it's defensible ...

So you didn't say this? You're saying you didn't say this?

Or perhaps I took it out of context from what your intent was.

That sounds eerily familiar ...

[WVUFAN]

dola --

And, for what it's worth, the Pope's job ISN'T to "convert" people.

[rexallllsc]

The pope is out of touch (duh!) and some fundamentalists love to riot.

That picture of the guys going ape is hilarious.

[JPhillips]

WVU: I don't agree. Isn't it the Pope's job to bring souls to God and doesn't he believe the surest route to God is through the Catholic church?

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

The pope is out of touch (duh!) and some fundamentalists love to riot.

Out of curiosity, in what way is the Pope out of touch? That he isn't afraid to speak (GOSH!) the actual truth?

I agree with Jon -- he didn't go far enough.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

This, I think is absolutely correct. These reactions are revealing. I recently Lawrence Wright (author of The Looming Tower) speak on Al Qaeda and Islamic militants, and part of the discussion centered on the deep-seated sense of cultural humiliation felt by Arabs and Muslims. According to Wright the history of this starts as far back as the defeat of Sultan Suleiman at Vienna in the 16th Century, and proceeds through colonial domination and Cold War manipulation to the present day. The humiliation of Islam by the West is apparently a favorite topic for Bin Laden and a strong draw on the young men who join him. It is also the reason for the powerful reactions to perceived Western insults against Islam.

It seems to me that some sensitivity is warranted, not because we should bow to extremism, but it seems irresponsible to needlessly throw fuel on the flames. Muslims need to get over this humiliation, and I'm not sure we help them with that by providing them with more evidence of our contempt. Moderate voices are hardest to hear when people have their blood up.

Good post.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Out of curiosity, in what way is the Pope out of touch? That he isn't afraid to speak (GOSH!) the actual truth?

I agree with Jon -- he didn't go far enough.

Do you think the pope should be promoting peace or a Crusades mentality? He should know how imflammatory hiscomments would be.

Here's a quote from the story:

""The declarations from the pope are more dangerous than the cartoons, because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world — the cartoons just came from an artist," said Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo, Egypt, who studies Islamic militancy."

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Do you think the pope should be promoting peace or a Crusades mentality? He should know how imflammatory hiscomments would be.

Here's a quote from the story:

""The declarations from the pope are more dangerous than the cartoons, because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world — the cartoons just came from an artist," said Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo, Egypt, who studies Islamic militancy."

I don't believe you read the Pope's comments. He was explicitly arguing FOR peace!