FOFNext: Yay or Nay?

[cuervo72]

First off, I would like to say that I am not creating this thread as an attack on Solecismic Software, or its developer personally. I am creating this thread as the result of a growing frustration with FOF that I have observed or heard about in online leagues such as IHOF, FOFL, WOOF, etc. Frustration from devoted, long-time customers and buyers of FOF.

I myself am still in a couple of online leagues, FOFL and IHOF. My interest in these leagues ebbs and flows, but I stay in the leagues because I have grown attached to them, and the other owners in them, and have more or less learned to live with some of the shortcomings of FOF. These shortcomings initially focused on things outside of the games themselves - general difficulty and lack of support in running MP leagues (no ftp), batch processes for those in multiple leagues, difficulties involving leagues with multiple simmers, difficulties for those playing on multiple machines [gameplans], inadequate html, no csv export capability, no willingness to give much insight into how to pull data out of the various game files (thank the stars that gstelmack and Celeval have helped out here). Most of these were issues that have been around for a while, some were even introduced with 2k7. None seem to be a particular concern for the developer.

Lately, there have been many, many more rumblings regarding shortcomings of the game engine itself. Inconsistencies with how gameplans are carried out, "chutes and ladders" involving gameplanning percentages, the view that the game itself is comprised of many mini-games which can only be figured out by power gamers/testers with little guidance from the help file. The idea that stats aren't generated by players, but are instead determined by outcome and then are assigned based on the ratings of the player after the fact. Basically, that put under a more powerful microscope (ironically one provided us by things like Solevision and expanded stats), the game engine doesn't look as bullet-proof as it once did, and performance isn't based on football knowledge or logic, but by putting the game through a battery of tests and finding where it bends.

Despite all this, I'm NOT at the point where I want to drop playing multiplayer FOF. As one fellow owner pointed out, does it really matter if the game may not be as intricate as you once thought, if it still gives decent results on the macro level? Perhaps not. There's still fun to be had, if you approach it the right way.

However...I wonder if we have reached the limitations of what FOF is going to be. I don't sense that there is help on the procedural front of running a league - it doesn't seem like that is in the developer's focus, despite requests for it. Pushing for it any further is probably futile. I'm also not certain that the engine is going to get inherently any better (honestly, it may never be possible to model a sport like football adequately). But then, I might be a very specific type of user, atypical from most of those who play the game. So I pose the following questions:

1. Would you see yourself buying another version of FOF, solely to play SP?
2. If you are in a MP league, would you advocate having the league upgrade? And if it did decide to upgrade, would you leave the league rather than purchasing another version?

For me, I'm afraid the answer to these would probably be no. Now, that's not to say I wouldn't buy another Solecismic product. I highly suspect I'd give FOF Baseball a shot (actually, I'd probably be pretty excited about it). Possibly other games too. But FOF...likely not, as it currently stands.

[rkmsuf]

football has run it's course I believe. and it was a good run but really, the guy isn't going to totally revamp the thing at this point. it's a nice game but to me it is what it is now.

who really is super pumped about another version of pro football given it's not a novelty anymore?

[stevew]

For starters, there's no way I could justify buying another copy of the game if the dreaded "midweek" stages in MP are in there. There has to be a workaround that eliminates the need for these. Right now, it's 4 exports a week just to get 2 games done. It would be much more amazing if you could easily do 3 games per week and minimize the amount of exports. Also, the FTP stuff still sucks, there should be a way to create your user export, and seemlessly send it to the league server.

[Ksyrup]

I would buy another version of the game for SP only, assuming there were upgrades, additional features, etc. Don't care about MP and likely never will.

That said, I thought for sure this thread was someone's smart ass parody of ESPN's Who's Now crap.

[st.cronin]

4 exports for 2 games? How is that?

[Malificent]

Nope, with each passing version, the game interface has gotten more complex with less explanation, which is the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. I don't play SP anymore (I used to in earlier versions) and I would strongly be against my MP league upgrading - the jump from 2K4 to 2K7 has taken a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I think I've reached the point where I'm just not interested in FOF unless it takes a radical change in direction.

[Poli]

For IHOF? Yes. For me? I would if it's TCY. If it's not...the answer is no.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

4 exports for 2 games? How is that?

One export directly before each game to set your gameplans, and then one export after each game to set your lineups, account for injuries, etc.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by stevew

One export directly before each game to set your gameplans, and then one export after each game to set your lineups, account for injuries, etc.

I don't understand what the point of that is. Why can't you do all that at the same time?

[gstelmack]

The answer to both your questions for me is "maybe". I love pro football and will continue to look for sims for it. My concerns with 2k7 are:

1) Scouting error appears to have been increased, making you rely more on stats to evaluate players.
2) Those stats are now found wanting (the KRB/KRO issue, for example).
3) To look past all of this requires an inordinate amount of statistical analysis to figure out what's going on that I just don't have time for.

The end result is I'm putting in more work for less fun in 2k7 than I did in 2k4. I don't think any of this is insurmountable, and I could see even a 6.1 release tipping the scales away from work and back to fun if some of the scouting issues were tweaked (I'm fine with the sim engine as-is for a GM-based game, but the changes to scouting are exposing weaknesses in it; it just wasn't meant for this kind of scrutiny).

Some of the other bits you mention just add to the work for me. It was pretty clear how people were using this game for multiplayer (Jim was even in a league for a long time), and yet almost nothing was done to smooth that process. That disappoints me, but not enough to stop me from playing it. It does tip the scale mentioned above, however.

So for me it depends on what sorts of changes were done. If we keep the scouting model and move to a 2D sim engine where we can SEE what the guys are doing (and get good stats out of it that are reported to us rather than making us watch every single play to find out what's happening), I'd be inclined to give it a chance. If it changes the scouting model so these stats go back to being the cool window dressing they used to be, I'd be inclined to give it a chance. If it becomes another giant puzzle game that requires me to spend lots and lots of analysis time to be successful at, then I've got better things to spend my time on.

A telling stat for me is I've now been through 5 drafts in 2k7 (I only play multiplayer), and I have *one* really good player to show for it (2 if Parmalee starts upticking, but we won't know until 2008 starts). That's not fun, that's frustrating.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Malificent

Nope, with each passing version, the game interface has gotten more complex with less explanation, which is the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. I don't play SP anymore (I used to in earlier versions) and I would strongly be against my MP league upgrading - the jump from 2K4 to 2K7 has taken a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I think I've reached the point where I'm just not interested in FOF unless it takes a radical change in direction.

Same here. I can deal with the current setup, but if the "features" of a future FOF game involved 10 more things I have to do before I sim a game, then it's more than I want to take on.

That being said, if a new game was released that had only massive AI improvements and some bells and whistles for greater immersion, and expansion, I'd buy it in a second.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I don't understand what the point of that is. Why can't you do all that at the same time?

Because if you have an injury and sign a replacement, if the game is simmed with that signing you do not have a legal roster, and the AI makes adjustments for you. That may include benching a guy you expected to start for playing time, releasing a rookie you really wanted to hold on to for another season or two, etc. So you need to have the commish run the turn that signs the guy, then you need to re-export with a legal depth chart.

[Cringer]

As long as new features are added, and attempts at perfecting the game engine are made, I will easily buy future FOFs. Simply put, I enjoy the game and don't get too worked up of problems. All games have those. As for my mp league, i would stick with it no matter if they upgraded or not. It is not a factor to me.

[Pyser]

this seems as good a place for me to say this as anywhere, but i am not a fan of fof2k7. i still play sp occasionally, but its always fof2k4. fof2k7 just got too big and detailed, and takes too long to play. i think the game got bloated/overly complicated.

id still buy the next game to support jim, but id hope he'd pare it back down.

[Morgado]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

1. Would you see yourself buying another version of FOF, solely to play SP?

No. The last version of FOF I played single player was 2K1 (three versions ago, I guess).

Originally Posted by cuervo72

2. If you are in a MP league, would you advocate having the league upgrade? And if it did decide to upgrade, would you leave the league rather than purchasing another version?

The current version is what made me decide to quit FOFL. If I were still in FOFL I would be against an upgrade.

[Young Drachma]

Not me. I don't play multiplayer FOF and the solo game is okay and all, I even bought 2K7, but...all in all...I like other sports a lot more and it's hard for me to get super immersed in the pro game. TCY? Sure thing.

[MrIllini]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

it just wasn't meant for this kind of scrutiny

IMO, this is both a beautiful and yet frustrating portion of the game. I feel that this statement is spot on, yet for a statistical simulation, intense scrutiny perhaps should be expected?

[Calis]

I might be almost alone in a group that has never even touched multi-player. I suppose I need to do that at some point.

I'm also a quick-simmer, I don't mess with gameplans, and I very seldom even control the depth charts unless I have a rookie I want to ensure gets playing time. Speaking of which, why oh why can we NEVER get the little lock boxes to work even when the CPU is setting the depth charts. Incredibly annoying when the CPU decides that my 11 year veteran QB who is rated one point higher by my scouts than my 1st round rookie QB should start, and after every game I have to go through each depth chart to try and figure out which one is messed up due to injuries. Well that's off on a tangent, but I'm probably among a minimal crowd who goes for quickly simming out seasons. I enjoy drafting, free agents, and that's the brunt of it..I just want to see the results.

Anyway, overall I'm pretty happy with it. There's definite room for improvement, I'd love to see a bit more personality added, but I don't feel slighted or dissapointed. As for a new version I'd probably wait and see on it, as I did with this one. If it goes for a more complex, time-consuming experience then I will probably pass.

Of course I only bought 07 this week, so I'm just seeing all the new stuff now and haven't noticed much of the bad yet.

[Antmeister]

Well for me, I would no longer buy it for SP unless:

1. They eliminate gameplanning altogether and focus primarily on having more functions for the GM (encourage your coach to give a player more playing time), give me the ability to hire coaches, have a much more competive way to hire scouts and coordinators. Make it so that you are working under an owner who has his own demands. So it will be just strictly Front Office Football as it was intended.

2. Redefine how players are scouted and provide more way to get more information about a player, etc.

There are a number of reasons for this, but one of the issues have been the unchanging status of the scouts regardless of how the players perform.

The reason why I wish to drop gameplanning altogether is because of what you had just mentioned. This is a belief that a number of stats are determined after the completion of the play and not during. So, in other words, a running back would run for 20 yards first and then stats like who made the key block, who was juked is determined after. At least that is the ongoing belief at this time based on tests run.

[st.cronin]

My $.02:

I tried mp, briefly, with 04, but felt really overwhelmed as I had never spent any time with that game in sp. I've not bought 07, and there's almost no chance I will.

I probably spent more time playing tcy in the week I bought it than all of Jim's other games put together.

I would definitely buy a game that was a mixed worlds sim, especially if it were SI style.

[st.cronin]

Oh, yeah: I hate gameplanning, hate it hate it hate it.

[Coder]

I think there's still lots to do with FOF in terms of further development, though I think that development should be focused on the MP-parts. There are too many possible improvements to be listed here, but to name a few:

1) Include FTP-function to upload/download exports
2) League Size Customization (I know, biggie)
3) Tighter integration with TCY (coaches as well as players?)

well.. basically, there are lots of both "little" things and "big" things that could be improved.

However, I do think TCY should be next... and I don't even play it.. but it would be great for MP as well if TCY came with better HTML reports for example.

[Anthony]

right now the bread and butter of FOF, ironically, is MP. i say ironically because it seems we had to drag Solecismic tooth and nail to include this feature, and when he first did it it felt almost like a "you wanted MP - here. now leave me alone" type add-on. but at this point 2K4 was going to be my last version of FOF, and it's only because i'm in a MP league that upgraded to 2K7 did i purchase it, and i did so only at the last possible time. i enjoy 2K7 and give my thumbs up at some of the features that were added in, but yes, the series seems to have run its course. i'm no fool - FOF is smoke and mirrors and a lot of the game is kept hush-hush by the developer because i don't think there is much there. i think the series may have taken a slight step back since now ratings are heavily masked, to the point where one has to start literal scrubs to see if they'll boom/unmask. and let's be honest, outside of SD running tests - who in a MP league would even consider giving playing time to some of the players that SD developed into stars? i mean, if i can't rely on ratings (with the assumption that there is a +5/-5 variance between scout to scout) then that whole part is moot. don't give me ratings then, give me more emails from my staff.

i didn't want to get 2k7, i just think i'm in the target market that Solecismic is going for. graphics and interface aren't my top priority, but i do want to feel i'm playing a game. i would wind up buying the next version of FOF if my MP league wanted to, but i'd do it kicking and screaming. i enjoy my MP league and building teams in a MP environment so at the end of the day i'll buy another version. but i won't be happy doing it. all said i'm glad at some of the things 2K7 has done, i guess i just want *more*. nice topic for a thread, but just resolve yourself to the fact that it'll fall on deaf ears and Solecismic will make the game how they want rather than how you want. if FOF was more like OOTP (maximum amount of editing allowed to create virtually any type of league; being able to upload my files to a server) it'd be awesome.

[flere-imsaho]

FOF's present status reminds me a little of the wilderness the CM/FM series got into around 2002/2003 or so. The "base" of the game is still very good, but a lot's been added on top that, though with good intentions, has made the experience a bit more complicated and a bit less fun.

Obviously SI overcame this, but SI's also a lot of people and Jim's just one guy. Sometimes when I read Jim's posts I get the feeling that in some parts of the code he's kind of backed himself into a corner, and it'll take a lot of re-work to fix/change something, and that too would happen with unforseen consequences. Obviously SI, with a lot more people, can rip out sections of code and re-do them easier and quicker.

All of which brings me back to one of the questions originally posed by cuervo72: have we reached the limitations of FOF for now? Only Jim can answer this for sure, because only he truly understands how it's structured and how willing he is to re-do big sections of code to try and implement some of the feature requests that have been mentioned. Having said that, I'm inclined to think that the answer to cuervo72's question is yes. I do think (and I think most people would agree) that FOF is an astonishingly good football sim, especially as it's been created by one guy. But I also think that there's probably only so much one person can do, and this is probably the limit for now. However, I'm not a game developer, so what do I know....

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

1. Would you see yourself buying another version of FOF, solely to play SP?

No.

2. If you are in a MP league, would you advocate having the league upgrade? And if it did decide to upgrade, would you leave the league rather than purchasing another version?

No, Yes.

[Cotton]

It's Front Office Football not Sideline Coach Football. We play the part of GMs, not position coaches, offensive and defensive coordinators or even head coaches. The point is to develop a team from the Front Office. FOF probably gives you access to more detail than you probably should have.

But it never promises or promised to be anything more than a General Manager oriented sim. That's all it is. And from that standpoint, it's pretty damn good.

But yeah, the ease of use for multiple MP leagues is atrocious. Headscratcher there.

[sjshaw]

1. Would you see yourself buying another version of FOF, solely to play SP?

Never in a million years. I would light my money on fire and sprinkle the ashes into a pool of rancid rainwater before I buy another version of FOF.

2. If you are in a MP league, would you advocate having the league upgrade? And if it did decide to upgrade, would you leave the league rather than purchasing another version?

See my answer to #1, which adequately addresses both parts of this question.

[Draft Dodger]

there's such an enormous gap between "what I think the game is doing" and "what the game really is doing", and that gap seems to get wider every day. I don't want to have to run season after season of tests just to try to figure out how to do basic functions that should be intuitive but are not.

I don't mind depth and complexity...if there's some logic or documentation behind it. I don't mind following a trail of bread crumbs to get to where I want to go, but I have no interest in stumbling around the woods in the dark on the off chance I'll find my destination. I am not a stupid person, but this game continually makes me feel like I am.

It would be a lot more fun it was, you know, fun.

[miked]

I bought previous versions, but really got into MP and decided to get 2k7. I put in lots of time gameplanning, ask for advice, but sometimes just see baffling things in Solevision. I think Jim's a nice enough guy, but there really doesn't seem to be any significant upgrade for the amount of time spent between versions. The online league play is poorly designed, the data is difficult to extract, the HTML is awful and I've started feeling like lately I just don't have the time to try and figure out my blitzing packages. Especially when it appears the game may decided about a sack first, then assign it to a great pass rusher second.

If a new version came out, I probably wouldn't buy it. Like I said, Jim seems nice enough, but the game is stale and he just doesn't seem dedicated to advancing it. With the direction OOTP and CM are going, I think this game is on the way out.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by P. Luxx

..But it never promises or promised to be anything more than a General Manager oriented sim. That's all it is. And from that standpoint, it's pretty damn good...

Well if this is the case, why is there any sort of gameplanning and roster management that we rely heavily on in a multiplayer league to try to get some sort of advantage over our competitors. Plus why do we also have ownership duties as well.

Now as far as doing a good job as a GM sim, you are right, except for the current scouting issues. And that is the area I think should be developed more extensively. As it stands now, we are part owner, assistant coach and full time GM. And if we didn't have roster management, more games would have been lost due to what the AI suggested.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by VPI97

No.

No, Yes.

Oh crap.

[Draft Dodger]

I should also point out that I'd possibly play SP a little more to help clue me in to what is going on in the game...but the thought of having to create batch files just to have more than one league on my computer is not one that makes me jump up and down with joy. It's not even worth the effort to put in the effort.

my God, the game has turned me into Yogi Berra.

[sjshaw]

Let's get real here, though. Jim cares about what people say in this thread as much as he cares about people complaining about MP. Zip. He knows that, despite all the whining and carrying on, as soon as he announces a new version everybody will get moist with anticipation and hand him their wallets.

[Killebrew]

Originally Posted by Morgado

No. The last version of FOF I played single player was 2K1 (three versions ago, I guess).



The current version is what made me decide to quit FOFL. If I were still in FOFL I would be against an upgrade.

Ditto for me (both responses).

[nole4sho]

The best version was FOF2K1 in my opinion. I am not sure what Jim's intentions are for the game but he would need to introduce FM type features to get my 34.95 or whatever the price is for his next game.

[Joe]

I will not buy any more products from this company.

[PSUColonel]

I hate to say it, but it's my opinion that many of the FOF players are getting much younger from what we (the original core group) are now, and probably as a result are more in tune with console type games, and have much less concentration, and want/need for detail. I just feel there are now likely two different generations of FOFer's.

[CraigSca]

I don't even remember the last time FOF was fun for me as single player, I buy it strictly for MP now. However, I'm disappointed with the things I'm starting to hear about how results are determined. I had always thought there was much more player on player interaction.

I still would love a TCY 2

[JeeberD]

*shrug*

I still like FOF, though it's extremely rare that I play it SP. I'm a MP addict, and if my leagues decided to upgrade I would do the same. Guess I'm nothing but a sheep...

[Malificent]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I hate to say it, but it's my opinion that many of the FOF players are getting much younger from what we (the original core group) are now, and probably as a result are more in tune with console type games, and have much less concentration, and want/need for detail. I just feel there are now likely two different generations of FOFer's.

I have no idea what you're talking about - I'm one of the "original core group" and I'm tired of added details being thrown in just for the sake of having extra details. I think the game would be best served with moving to more of a pure GM model than the mix it is today.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Malificent

I have no idea what you're talking about - I'm one of the "original core group" and I'm tired of added details being thrown in just for the sake of having extra details. I think the game would be best served with moving to more of a pure GM model than the mix it is today.

actually i would agree with that, I've never played as a coach...just as GM

[Anthony]

oof, what is this - bash Solecismic Day? yeesh...

i do in fact think the game has reached it's limits. the developer doesn't seem eager to overhaul the game and probably doesn't have the resources to do so. i don't agree with a lot of how the game is set up which is why i was so against buying 2k7. as i mentioned the developer is lucky MP causes a lot of people to get attached to their leagues/players and as a result will reluctantly (sometimes) buy a new version.

still, it's only $35, and i can't think of many things i can get for $35 that provided several year's worth of fun.

[Flasch186]

im with HA

I enjoy it very much, especially in MP and am able to have enough of an imagination to know that an audible caused "that", or a read resulted in "that". I love the USFL and would absolutely buy the next version.

[jaygr]

The big sign for me is this- I get the urge a number of times each year to play this type of game- get ideas of how I want to build a team, get all excited. I fire up FOF, get ready to go and suddenly my enthusiasm deflates at a quick rate until I close it down and give up. I look at the game planning, the spreadsheet look, resigning players, etc and I just lose it.

Just something about the presentation, confusion, complexity, and tedium that the game can have just sucks out any desire I had. I appreciate everything that is there- I often dream of the features from the game mixed with say, a madden engine (what I hoped Head Coach would be, but that is a different story) or at least something similar to the FM stuff.

edit: I'd also like to add that I have nothing but huge appreciation for Solescismic and the job Jim has done. The game has still provided me with so much entertainment over the years, especially in the earlier versions that I would play non-stop. I just have to agree that Jim has perhaps gone as far as he can with it. I think with his skill and knowledge if he ever considered teaming up with others they could probably together make a game that suits most of the things we are looking for. But by himself, I am not sure what more could be done.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I hate to say it, but it's my opinion that many of the FOF players are getting much younger from what we (the original core group) are now, and probably as a result are more in tune with console type games, and have much less concentration, and want/need for detail. I just feel there are now likely two different generations of FOFer's.

Much like Malificent, I'm kind of stumped about why you've got that impression.

I'm probably fairly described as a 2nd generation FOFC'er, but I'm also 40 and have been around for a number of years now. And nothing you're talking about has anything to do with why I've moved on to other games.

[Subby]

I don't even know where to start, to be honest. I will just say that I wish the developer understood how far the game lags behind the industry standard when it comes to features in the multiplayer module. It is almost as if he WILLFULLY ignores best practices in this area as some type of ignonimous badge of honor.

I am in three top leagues and help run one of them. The aggregate amount of unnecessary time I spend dealing with inefficiencies in the multiplayer module is staggering.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Subby

I don't even know where to start, to be honest. I will just say that I wish the developer understood how far the game lags behind the industry standard when it comes to features in the multiplayer module. It is almost as if he WILLFULLY ignores best practices in this area as some type of ignonimous badge of honor.

I am in three top leagues and help run one of them. The aggregate amount of unnecessary time I spend dealing with inefficiencies in the multiplayer module is staggering.

And that is another thing I fear the most. If we get enough people who tire of being commisioners because of the time it takes to build something to run a league, there won't be any consistent multiplayer leagues and it all tumbles downhill from there, espeically if a majority of people are buying it for that purpose. And to see VPI's comments should already be a telling sign. Especially for the amount of leagues he runs based on stuff he created. Because there are not many people who would take the time to create another league with all the hoops you have to go through to extract information.

And after playing another football game, it was amazing how much less stress you feel when you can access your mulitiplayer and single player games from the same screen without having to open up other menus and set up batch files.

[Hoosierbuckeye]

Since I've only been in FOF for one calendar year, I don't have any experience beyond that, I do think it's a great game. I agree with PLuxx and Flasch in that aspect. It is a g.m. game and it beats the hell out of Madden in that respect. Gameplanning isn't all that difficult, it's still x's and o's, and with the e patch, I haven't had much to complain about.

I've never played single player, so that's out the window as well. I like the challenge of going head to head with other g.m.'s and like the comraderie when you find a league that fits your personality.

I have a wish list for FOF that includes league expansion and an internal batch file that allows one to switch between leagues, but that's about all I'd ask for.

Would I buy it again? Yep.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

there's such an enormous gap between "what I think the game is doing" and "what the game really is doing", and that gap seems to get wider every day. I don't want to have to run season after season of tests just to try to figure out how to do basic functions that should be intuitive but are not.

I don't mind depth and complexity...if there's some logic or documentation behind it. I don't mind following a trail of bread crumbs to get to where I want to go, but I have no interest in stumbling around the woods in the dark on the off chance I'll find my destination. I am not a stupid person, but this game continually makes me feel like I am.

DD hits the nail on the head for me. Although it's a slight exaggeration, I really have no clue what it takes to succeed in this game in terms of gameplanning. For that matter, I have no clue what it takes to lose in this game with gameplanning either. Whenever there appears to be a question about how something in the engine works, the answer is invariably, "It could be this or it could be that." The feedback the game provides is either too complex or it doesn't provide the necessary information to make choices that discernibly affect game outcomes. I would like a better sense of how the choices I am making are causing me to win or resulting in losses. As it stands, I'm not getting that from 2k7. MP only exacerbates the problem.

I feel like 2k7 is a combination of the Wizard of Oz and the fairy tale about the emperor who has no clothes at times. The game takes us all on a journey down the yellow brick road. After many trials and tribulations, we finally get to the Emerald City, get in to see the game engine that is the wizard and realize he is a lot less impressive than we all thought he was. And as I read the various threads about how the engine works or might be working, I wonder if the emperor has no clothes.

Like others, I strongly believe Jim is a good guy with good intentions. I have been a customer since the original FOF. But I have become increasingly befuddled by the trajectory of the game's development. I was already reluctant to purchase 2k7 after trying to deal with the 2k4 engine, but decided to buy it because of MP. I will be having second thoughts should another edition come out. There are too many other great games out there that don't require as much testing to light a candle in the darkness.

[digamma]

Put me in the undecided camp.

The batch file process is so freakin' annoying to me. I end up forgetting to do it most times and having a MP game up with the wrong cities, and then have to figure out who I'm playing, what team I'm interested in trading with, etc. There has to be a better way.

Like others though, I've become a bit disenchanted with the game itself. Mali's post above pretty much summarizes my feelings.