Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[M GO BLUE!!!]

At least we know who will be buying a "Free George Zimmerman, An AMERICAN Patriot!" t-shirt.

[molson]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

At least we know who will be buying a "Free George Zimmerman, An AMERICAN Patriot!" t-shirt.

Who? I see people asking questions and trying to handicap this but nobody saying his actions were awesome based on what we know.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I believe it's more for the fight that ensued. Or is alleged to have ensued. I guess the circumstances leading up to the fight don't matter. Assuming there even was a fight. The guy had cuts and was injured, so it appears there was some kind of scuffle. Whether that resulted from him confronting the kid and the kid attacking him, or he snuck up on the kid and attacked him, either of which lead to the shooting, that's where the law is coming in. I think.

Ugh. That's an incredibly poorly written law, then. At that point, the difference between murder and self defense is what, who swung first? Who said "fighting words" to the other first? He keeps talking about how he's going to **** your mother until you finally punch him in the face and he shoots you, thereby "standing his ground"? (situation taken to the absurd extreme).

[Young Drachma]

“People of color, women, and gays—who now have greater access to the centers of influence that ever before—are under pressure to be well-behaved when talking about their struggles. There is an expectation that we can talk about sins but no one must be identified as a sinner: newspapers love to describe words or deeds as ‘racially charged’ even in those cases when it would be more honest to say ‘racist’; we agree that there is rampant misogyny, but misogynists are nowhere to be found; homophobia is a problem but no one is homophobic.

One cumulative effect of this policed language is that when someone dares to point out something as obvious as white privilege, it is seen as unduly provocative. Marginalized voices in America have fewer and fewer avenues to speak plainly about what they suffer; the effect of this enforced civility is that those voices are falsified or blocked entirely from the discourse.”

The White Savior Industrial Complex - Teju Cole - International - The Atlantic

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by mckerney

14 months, not 8 years.

So far I've seen this cited as 11 years, "several" years, and the one I cited which says "calling police close to 50 times over the past eight years ". If you've got one that says 14 months, I'll happily add it to the pile.

That said, I still alternate between "so what" and "big fucking deal". 48 in 14 months would still be less than once a week, and if you ain't seeing something to report at least once a week then you probably aren't looking

[mckerney]

Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

Zimmerman called police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious

[JediKooter]

So he called 911 because someone left a window open? I wonder if he calls 911 because he can't find his pair of favorite socks?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The White Savior Industrial Complex - Teju Cole - International - The Atlantic

It's a pretty big deal to accuse someone of being racist. The author seems to acknowledge that later in that article when he says, "I want to tread carefully here: I do not accuse Kristof of racism nor do I believe he is in any way racist" Obviously the author is concerned about how his own statements are perceived, just like those newspapers have to be concerned.

When you throw constitutional rights into the mix things get even more dangerous. When individuals in government make charging and arrest decisions, or really any decision (and that's "individuals" in government, not government as a whole as we often think of it), should they consider race? Should they try to account for racial perceptions, should they attempt the analysis of what would happen if races were reversed and how would that be perceived? Should they do whatever makes them look the least racist? This is difficult stuff. It's so easy to be cynical. It's so easy to assume every white government official will make every decision against the interest of any minority. That's the assumption, and then the government officials have the cultural burden of proving race-neutral reasons for every action. The net result is that, a defendant has lesser constitutional rights if their victim is of a different race. And hey, maybe that's justice, because it compensates for other injustices. But when you start with the assumption, "well, if this person was of this race the government official will do this every time", then the government official is already in a bad place, no matter who they are, no matter what's really in their heart. Should they factor that into their decisions that involve constitutional rights and peoples freedoms?

Edit: It's really two things you have to do, make a decision independent of emotion and any bias (racial or otherwise) as best you can, but then also overcome the perception burden that you're racist. (if you even should care about such a thing) I would love to see how the author of that article (and a lot of other people), would operate in that environment. Observation is incredibly easy because you can pick and choose what facts you want to emphasize, and it's all just an opinion anyway, and any mistakes - factual or logical - aren't going to impact anyone's freedom or constitutional rights. Observations and people observing are still important, of course, but I think you have to look at them with skepticism when they think they know what everyone else should do. Especially when they have so much damn confidence about what everyone should do, even if they have a fraction of the facts, and a fraction of the knowledge of the law and other constraints, and a fraction of the understanding about what gaps in the law and the facts might mean.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

So he called 911 because someone left a window open?

Straight out of the Neighborhood Watch tips for preventing crime, right down to it being one of the very first things law enforcement tells them to look for.

There are three elements necessary for a crime to occur:

Opportunity: You have created a situation for a burglar or attacker to choose your residence or person. By this we mean that you have left a garage door open; a window ajar; inadequate lighting around your house that creates concealment, etc. This is the ONLY aspect Neighborhood Watch can control!

http://www.sacpd.org/getinvolved/watch/

[JediKooter]

I don't know. It gets hot in Florida and having a window open would not raise any alarm bells.

He sounds more like a nosey wanna be cop. Kind of like the BTK killer.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If Trayvon shoots Zimmerman, nobody outside of a 50 mile radius ever hears a word about it.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Truth is, you don't know what the fuck this allegedly innocent kid was doing. Neither do I, so how bout we find out before we make any judgments.

cute.

[Young Drachma]

Trayvon Shooter's 911 Calls: Potholes, Piles of Trash—and Black Men | Mother Jones

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I don't know. It gets hot in Florida and having a window open would not raise any alarm bells.

He sounds more like a nosey wanna be cop. Kind of like the BTK killer.

If you know anything about Florida, if you are hot, opening the windows is the LAST thing most people would do. Unless you enjoying bathing in clothing.

[molson]

He's clearly strange and possibly mentally ill. Under normal circumstances, that would be the kind of thing a prosecutor might try to take advantage of, and a defense attorney might accuse him of prosecutorial misconduct for doing so. Everything's backwards in this one case, it's pretty surreal. I haven't really been able to articulate it yet though.

[mckerney]

Looks like the other person was always the aggressor in Zimmerman's violent confrontations.

Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman: New details in George Zimmerman domestic violence petitions - Orlando Sentinel

The woman reported Zimmerman had arrived at her home Aug. 8 and asked to talk. Later, when she asked him to leave, she said, he insisted on staying and demanded documents she had.

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

Zimmerman filed his own petition the day after his ex-fiancée's, in which he claimed that she had been the aggressor in the fight. He said she called him Aug. 8 and invited him to spend the night.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I don't know. It gets hot in Florida and having a window open would not raise any alarm bells.

Anybody that leaves their house with a window open is frickin' idiotic afaic.
Doing so in a town where the property crime rate is 3x the national average is well beyond idiotic.
Sanford crime rates and statistics - NeighborhoodScout

[digamma]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Straight out of the Neighborhood Watch tips for preventing crime, right down to it being one of the very first things law enforcement tells them to look for.




http://www.sacpd.org/getinvolved/watch/

Look out for, not report as suspicious activity.

Come on, Jon, calling because a window is open doesn't pass the giggle test. At best, it's a tremendous drain on resources and at worst it's a clear sign of paranoia.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So far I've seen this cited as 11 years, "several" years, and the one I cited which says "calling police close to 50 times over the past eight years ". If you've got one that says 14 months, I'll happily add it to the pile.

That said, I still alternate between "so what" and "big fucking deal". 48 in 14 months would still be less than once a week, and if you ain't seeing something to report at least once a week then you probably aren't looking

Can you give some examples of what you see on a weekly basis that "should be reported"?

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Straight out of the Neighborhood Watch tips for preventing crime, right down to it being one of the very first things law enforcement tells them to look for.




http://www.sacpd.org/getinvolved/watch/

Also straight out of that link:

Neighborhood Watch is not any of the following:
a vigilante force working outside the normal procedures of the local police department
a 100% guarantee that crime will not occur in your neighborhood
a program designed for participants to undertake personal risks to deter crime

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Yeah well. My opinion is law, didn't you get the memo?

Those of you who think you know what you are doing are really starting to annoy those of us who do.

That was a sign in the teacher's lounge in my high school

[molson]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Also straight out of that link:

I'm still trying to understand what Zimmerman's non-compliance with accepted neighborhood watch policies has to do with anything, at least as far as what charges he might face.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I don't know. It gets hot in Florida and having a window open would not raise any alarm bells.

When it's hot in Florida, people in Florida close the windows and turn on the AC. Opening the windows won't take care of it.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm still trying to understand what Zimmerman's non-compliance with accepted neighborhood watch policies has to do with anything, at least as far as what charges he might face.

Nothing to do with. I just fail to understand Jon's point that he is doing some civic service while failing to follow what seems to be a basic recommendation of the link he posted. To paint him anything but a public nuisance is odd to me.

Shit, I have no idea what charges he will face.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Can you give some examples of what you see on a weekly basis that "should be reported"?

Suspicious vehicle would be the most obvious off the top of my head, from a immediate neighborhood standpoint. No shortage of iffy characters in the "pinestraw business" around here.

More broadly - let's say the area a few miles up the road I mentioned to SD earlier - you've got everything from loitering after hours to public drunk (think safety hazard here, not just general obnoxiousness, this is a very busy 3-4 lane road I'm talking about) to the occasional hooker to reckless driving.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Nothing to do with. I just fail to understand Jon's point that he is doing some civic service while failing to follow what seems to be a basic recommendation of the link he posted. To paint him anything but a public nuisance is odd to me.

You missed my point apparently, which was that an open window is exactly the sort of thing that n.w. programs tell participants to watch for. Presumably that would be to report them, otherwise what exactly would be the purpose in watching for them?

Relevant only because some folks seem to think there's something amiss about reporting that kind of thing, whereas is ought to be pretty normal for any n.w. to do.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

When it's hot in Florida, people in Florida close the windows and turn on the AC. Opening the windows won't take care of it.

The guy in San Diego loses on this point. I remember staying somewhere in the Southern California area on my honeymoon, and the place we were staying didn't even have AC. And it was a first floor room, small little quasi-bed-and-breakfast. No frickin' way I'd leave a 1st floor window open like that.

In fact, when we leave windows open at our house - in a low crime area - they are only the ones away from any easy access. none near a roof ledge, or the deck. Just the ones with sheer brick wall under them.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You missed my point apparently, which was that an open window is exactly the sort of thing that n.w. programs tell participants to watch for. Presumably that would be to report them, otherwise what exactly would be the purpose in watching for them?

Relevant only because some folks seem to think there's something amiss about reporting that kind of thing, whereas is ought to be pretty normal for any n.w. to do.

I don't know what things an active NW does or doesn't do, but the first thing that would come to mind if I was charged, even informally under some form of NW program, with "looking out for me and my neighbor's best interests," would be to knock on that person's door, or call them, or something other than dialing 911. And probably, I'd get a general sense from the community what kinds of things they want people to look out for and alert them of. Maybe in a particular Florida community an open window would be an issue. Here, not so much.

I know we have alerted a couple of neighbors to an open garage after midnight, and an open car door for over 30 minutes. And by "alert" I mean one of us went over to their house to tell them about it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

would be to knock on that person's door, or call them, or something other than dialing 911.

And you're aware that he never did anything of that sort?

We're just assuming he dials on sight, right? Couldn't possibly have checked & gotten no response or anything like that?

[lungs]

I'd be a terrible neighborhood watch person. I heard a gunshot behind my house last night and I barely bothered to look out the window.

[BrianD]

Do NW programs not recommend calling the local police directly? Any time I have reported suspicious activity or a noise complaint, I call the local police. One would think that a person calling once a week would have that number on speed dial. I'm surprised the 911 operator never directed him to the local office.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by lungs

I'd be a terrible neighborhood watch person. I heard a gunshot behind my house last night and I barely bothered to look out the window.

Rogue cow gang?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by lungs

I'd be a terrible neighborhood watch person. I heard a gunshot behind my house last night and I barely bothered to look out the window.

Two bulls fighting over cow?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Suspicious vehicle would be the most obvious off the top of my head, from a immediate neighborhood standpoint. No shortage of iffy characters in the "pinestraw business" around here.

More broadly - let's say the area a few miles up the road I mentioned to SD earlier - you've got everything from loitering after hours to public drunk (think safety hazard here, not just general obnoxiousness, this is a very busy 3-4 lane road I'm talking about) to the occasional hooker to reckless driving.

Sounds to me like you're drawing all of your examples besides "suspicious vehicles" (whatever that means) is stuff actually happening outside of your neighborhood. I'm not sure what has to do with why a Neighborhood Watch person would call the police.

And, on top of that, sounds to me like you live in a shady area if all of that is going within a couple of miles of your house on a regular basis.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

When it's hot in Florida, people in Florida close the windows and turn on the AC. Opening the windows won't take care of it.

I've been in Florida at all different parts of the year. My grandma, would leave the windows open unless it was too hot. I've lived in Panama City and when it wasn't too hot, we'd have a window or two open.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Rogue cow gang?

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Two bulls fighting over cow?

Heh. Realistically who knows. Probably a coyote hunter. Gunshots barely register on my radar. There's always somebody killin' somethin' 'round these parts.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The guy in San Diego loses on this point. I remember staying somewhere in the Southern California area on my honeymoon, and the place we were staying didn't even have AC. And it was a first floor room, small little quasi-bed-and-breakfast. No frickin' way I'd leave a 1st floor window open like that.

In fact, when we leave windows open at our house - in a low crime area - they are only the ones away from any easy access. none near a roof ledge, or the deck. Just the ones with sheer brick wall under them.

I would lose a point only if I've never left the state of California or ever lived anywhere besides the state of California.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And you're aware that he never did anything of that sort?

We're just assuming he dials on sight, right? Couldn't possibly have checked & gotten no response or anything like that?

I don't know what this guy does or doesn't do. We're talking hypotheticals,. You're talking about it being a normal thing to call 911 because of an open window. I disagree.

For an open window, absent something like seeing someone in the house or hearing/seeing something else that looked suspicious, I can't think of any reason I'd call 911. I don't think that would be called for in any way.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I've been in Florida at all different parts of the year. My grandma, would leave the windows open unless it was too hot. I've lived in Panama City and when it wasn't too hot, we'd have a window or two open.

Unless you are directly on the beach, that's just crazy. And even then, the breeze is still too humid to be refreshing - unless maybe it's directly after a storm or something.

[JediKooter]

I guess it's ok for him to not be such an upstanding citizen. I'm not surprised by his self imposed double standard, since it's usually the ones that are most vocal about things are the most guilty.

George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin’s killer, had prior brushes with the law | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't know what this guy does or doesn't do. We're talking hypotheticals,. You're talking about it being a normal thing to call 911 because of an open window. I disagree.

For an open window, absent something like seeing someone in the house or hearing/seeing something else that looked suspicious, I can't think of any reason I'd call 911. I don't think that would be called for in any way.

I was always under the impression that 911 was for actually emergencies. The only times I've called to report something to the police it's been with the non emergency numbers.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Unless you are directly on the beach, that's just crazy. And even then, the breeze is still too humid to be refreshing - unless maybe it's directly after a storm or something.

Or you're poor, like my grandma was. Open windows and a few fans. There's a number of reasons why someone would have their windows open. After storms were the best time in my opinion though. I just liked the way it smelled.

[Ben E Lou]

Yeah, I have to side with KSyrup/JIMGA on the "open window in Florida" point. JediKooter has a point on the poor person thing, but my impression is that this was a solidly middle class gated community. I don't find it odd that open windows would raise at least a yellow flag there. I've gotten notes from the police department here when I accidentally left my garage door open overnight. Reporting something like that isn't really a big deal to me.

That said, it's still the overall picture that leads me to think the dude's a loser. 28 years old, living with his parents, apparently no real job, multiple brushes with the law, unpaid credit cards, and spending a significant amount of time and energy on playing cop.

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by mckerney

I was always under the impression that 911 was for actually emergencies. The only times I've called to report something to the police it's been with the non emergency numbers.

And I am pretty sure the 911 dispatchers would tell you the same thing.

[JediKooter]

I do admit, the one thing I did not see is (regarding open windows) were those people home or not? If they were home, to me that brings it into the creepy BTK zone.

This guy has issues, no doubt in my mind. There's being diligent and there's being a pest. Sounds like he took it well beyond the pest stage.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I do admit, the one thing I did not see is (regarding open windows) were those people home or not? If they were home, to me that brings it into the creepy BTK zone.

This guy has issues, no doubt in my mind. There's being diligent and there's being a pest. Sounds like he took it well beyond the pest stage.

Or worse, that he never checked, just called 911. But I agree with JIMGA, that we don't know any of those details. My only point is, I don't see how you call 911 for an open window unless you hear a scream or see someone laying unconscious inside or something like that.

Personally, I've only called 911 twice in my life, and both were due to car accidents. I've been fortunate enough to never run into a situation at home where it was necessary. But I have seen plenty of open windows...

[cartman]

I think it depends on the jurisdiction on when to call 911. A couple of years ago, my car was broken into on a surface lot in downtown Dallas. The thief, along with my stereo and radar detector were long gone, so I called the non-emergency number. They told me to call 911.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

This guy has issues, no doubt in my mind. There's being diligent and there's being a pest. Sounds like he took it well beyond the pest stage.

Right. I agree with you there. "You got to let some shit just sliiiiiiiiide."--Chris Rock. JIMGA is correct to a degree--there are dozens of activities daily, even in a nice neighborhood, that *could* be reported to local law enforcement, and in many cases an arrest or citation *could* be issued. But for the same reason it'd be problematic to have a cop with OCD out there trying to enforce every single minor violation of every single law or statute he sees, it's problematic when a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain wannabe cop is out there evidently acting OCD about everything he sees. The overall report on this guy seems to be that people whose property he helped protect from a real criminal thought he was helpful, but people who saw his overzealousness thought he was just creepy. Sure, if you're out there acting like the Dirty Harry of your neighborhood, you *are* likely to stop/deter some criminals, but if you cross that line into creepy/overzealous/OCD/pest/whatever too frequently, the negatives can outweigh the positives.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Or worse, that he never checked, just called 911. But I agree with JIMGA, that we don't know any of those details. My only point is, I don't see how you call 911 for an open window unless you hear a scream or see someone laying unconscious inside or something like that.

Personally, I've only called 911 twice in my life, and both were due to car accidents. I've been fortunate enough to never run into a situation at home where it was necessary.

I totally agree with you. Unless he saw a pair of feet disappear into the window or heard something like you said, a call to 911 for an open window is a bit extreme and (to me at least) borderline abuse of the 911 system.

I think I've only called it two or three times. Once was for a medical emergency of a neighbor across the street. I had my car broken into, I called the number to the sheriff's department to report it, not 911. My house was paint balled (along with most of the other houses on my street), I called the sheriff's department to report it, not 911. I have a feeling this guy would call 911 for both situations.

But I have seen plenty of open windows...

Hey, maybe they were cooking something very stinky and wanted to air out the place?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Sounds to me like you're drawing all of your examples besides "suspicious vehicles" (whatever that means) is stuff actually happening outside of your neighborhood. I'm not sure what has to do with why a Neighborhood Watch person would call the police.

We're splitting two observations here or something. You asked for examples of my "weekly ought to be reported stuff", so I threw out my own most local one as well as another area I drive through fairly frequently. Every 'hood is going to have it's own list obviously.

I guess my "pinestraw" reference was too obscure. It's a common scam in some places, typically two guys in an old pickup who go door to door offering to sell you "some pinestraw they had leftover from another job". After spreading a few bales of decomposing junk, they range from changing the price & trying to intimidate the homeowner into paying more than agreed or case the house/property for future reference, etc. Similar to the "leftover asphalt/blacktop" scams that used to be all the rage. On average I see at least one of those guys a week here about 9 months a year, sometimes several a week. There isn't anything about them that isn't at least suspicious.

And, on top of that, sounds to me like you live in a shady area if all of that is going within a couple of miles of your house on a regular basis.

Welcome to Athens, GA. It just so happens that one of the 2-3 highest crime neighborhoods is between much of the outlying residential areas where the non-student population lives & both the University and the downtown area.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

I think it depends on the jurisdiction on when to call 911. A couple of years ago, my car was broken into on a surface lot in downtown Dallas. The thief, along with my stereo and radar detector were long gone, so I called the non-emergency number. They told me to call 911.

You beat me to it.

Most of the jurisdictions I've lived in had non-emergency numbers that ended with office hours at 4p or 5p. After that all calls went to 911, either with a "push 1 to reach" prompt or simply a recording that told you to call 911.

Then again, I also know that one of the more frequent non-emergency calls for rural 911's are people trying to report power outtages so it can get a little crazy.