2013 Baseball HOF Voting

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Logan

Serious question...why do you think we have this outrage in baseball but not when it comes to the HoF for the other sports? Is it because of more interest in Cooperstown as this "hollowed ground" of our national pastime? Are the same debates happening in other sports, but we just don't hear them as much?

Baseball is more of a sport of individual achievement when compared to other major sports, so it is natural that baseball's HOF (which basically honors individual achievement) has more importance.

[lighthousekeeper]

dola: i think every sportwriter should read Bill James' book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" before starting the same tired arguments decrying the HOF selection process. definitely one of my favorite baseball books.

[Arles]

What bothers me the most about the sports writers is how they romanticize about the players of the 60s and 70s as if they were above all this performance enhancing temptation. IE, "Mickey Mantle or Joe D never would have used steroids" and it's a bunch of hogwash. They did the same thing the guys in the 90s did and used the best drugs/technology available at the time to try and get ahead. They just didn't have access to the level of steroids/HGH/drugs that the players in the 90s did. If Sandy Kofax was willing to inject his elbow with 2-3 cortisone shots a year (even back then doctors knew this was risky) - are you telling me he wouldn't have taken the Andy Pettitte route and used HGH to recover in 2000 if he played then?

In the NFL, Jim Haslett is on record as saying that atleast half of NFL players in the 70s and early 80s took steroids. Yet, the NFL HOF didn't prevent guys in that era from entering the HOF - even though major records (Marino, Dickerson, Payton, ...) were set during that timeframe. It's a joke that the baseball writers are so pious about steroids in the baseball HOF when other sports don't care and "cheating" in other eras of baseball itself didn't seem to matter.

[Subby]

How does someone like Griffey or Glavine avoid the PEDs taint? Just because they didn't balloon doesn't mean they never took something. Same with Maddux or Johnson.

PEDs aren't just about improved performance, they are also about injury prevention and recovery. I don't understand how you can incriminate so many of these guys from the 80s and 90s, but still pick and choose based on nothing more than spurious visual evidence and media narratives.

[Logan]

Fucking Neifi Perez was popped for PEDs. There are other tiny, defensive-oriented players who have tested positive. Once those guys started dropping, it blew up that "eye test" argument.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Logan

Serious question...why do you think we have this outrage in baseball but not when it comes to the HoF for the other sports? Is it because of more interest in Cooperstown as this "hollowed ground" of our national pastime? Are the same debates happening in other sports, but we just don't hear them as much?

Because the voting for the Baseball HoF is the 2nd dumbest fucking system in sports (the BCS non-playoff is the dumbest, but that goes away soon). Idiots that didn't play the game get to vote in an absurd spectacle. That morons who "protest voted" only for Jack Morris get to keep their ballots shows just how stupid their whole system is.

Compare that with the NFL, where a smaller panel of selectors - some of whom *GASP* actually played the game - sit down, make presentations, debate/discuss candidates and then vote. The NFL ends up with a far more informed panel to select those worthy of the HoF. If someone refused to vote just because Joe Charboneau wasn't on the ballot, they'd be laughed/kicked off the panel because they wouldn't be worthy to vote.

[JPhillips]

The NFL panel is no better. Look at the bias to big markets and their continued refusal to put kickers in the HOF. Any process that relies on the whims of Peter King is ridiculous.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Because the voting for the Baseball HoF is the 2nd dumbest fucking system in sports (the BCS non-playoff is the dumbest, but that goes away soon). Idiots that didn't play the game get to vote in an absurd spectacle. That morons who "protest voted" only for Jack Morris get to keep their ballots shows just how stupid their whole system is.

Then why do you care so much who gets in?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Subby

How does someone like Griffey or Glavine avoid the PEDs taint? Just because they didn't balloon doesn't mean they never took something. Same with Maddux or Johnson.

PEDs aren't just about improved performance, they are also about injury prevention and recovery. I don't understand how you can incriminate so many of these guys from the 80s and 90s, but still pick and choose based on nothing more than spurious visual evidence and media narratives.

This has been my argument for years. There's no evidence that Maddux didn't take roids...in fact, his physique actually got "harder" over the years. Randy Johnson had a similar career "dip" as Clemens (both due to injury) and came back in his mid-to-late 30s with even more velocity (over 700 Ks at age 37 & 38).

Let's face it...it's likely that these guys took steroids. When we look at their profiles, their excellence that extended far into baseball "old age" as compared to other players in other eras, that guys like Ken Caminitti said more than half used 'roids when he played (and he had no reason to lie)...are people really so naive as to think that these guys didn't use at some point in their careers?

So, guys get punished because their felon trainer said they took 'roids (Clemens)? Because they supposedly had back acne (Piazza)? Becuase they don't pass the eyeball test (Bagwell)? Where do you draw the line on rumor, hearsay and spurious evidence?

I'm going to take it one step further. Fay Vincent's 1991 supposedly drew the line at "illegal drugs" with his memo (though not an official rule), but steroids were legal with a prescription under the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990. If any players used 'roids in the mid 90s under such a prescription, they didn't commit an illegal act. Other 'roids, like Andro, were legal when guys like McGwire took it. No rule breaking there, either. So molson, your assumptions about creatine don't hold true. There definitiely has been some ex post facto rule-making here about being "worthy" for the HoF.

What I know is this - a HoF without a top-5 hitter, without its best pitcher in a century and without its leading batter isn't a HoF at all.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by molson

Then why do you care so much who gets in?

"The electorial college system is stupid."
"Then why do you care who is President?"

You might want to think about the question before asking it next time.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Logan

Fucking Neifi Perez was popped for PEDs. There are other tiny, defensive-oriented players who have tested positive. Once those guys started dropping, it blew up that "eye test" argument.

Just imagine how awful he would have been if he hadn't used.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

What I know is this - a HoF without a top-5 hitter, without its best pitcher in a century and without its leading batter isn't a HoF at all.

Snuck in a different situation there. Just sayin'

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

What I know is this - a HoF without a top-5 hitter, without its best pitcher in a century and without its leading batter isn't a HoF at all.

And a HOF with pieces of shit like Bonds and a lying sumbitch like Clemens in it ought to be burned to the fucking ground.

There, we've now staked out our positions.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And a HOF with pieces of shit like Bonds and a lying sumbitch like Clemens in it ought to be burned to the fucking ground.

There, we've now staked out our positions.

Would you want it burned down if the integrity/sportsmanship clauses were removed from the voting criteria?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

Would you want it burned down if the integrity/sportsmanship clauses were removed from the voting criteria?

I'd find it less interesting/worthwhile.

Consistent with my declining interest in the NFL being directly related to Ray Lewis, Mike Vick, etc etc.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd find it less interesting/worthwhile.

Consistent with my declining interest in the NFL being directly related to Ray Lewis, Mike Vick, etc etc.

weird. To me, a HOF filled with Dale Murphys is infinitely less interesting than a HOF filled with Barry Bonds, Pete Roses, Ty Cobbs, etc.

[Buccaneer]

There are a lot of bonds, McGwire et al stuff at the baseball museum. They just don't deserve a plaque.

You're wrong, blackie, the nfl hof is an even worse joke than the baseball hof.

Lighthouse is correct. Much of my negative attitudes about the hof is based on James' book and why I said what the vet committee did in the 60s and 70s was bad.

But is incredible to me that there are those that want to perpetuate the mess by not only adding blatant cheaters but to admit even more marginal players.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

There are a lot of bonds, McGwire et al stuff at the baseball museum. They just don't deserve a plaque.

You're wrong, blackie, the nfl hof is an even worse joke than the baseball hof.

Lighthouse is correct. Much of my negative attitudes about the hof is based on James' book and why I said what the vet committee did in the 60s and 70s was bad.

But is incredible to me that there are those that want to perpetuate the mess by not only adding blatant cheaters but to admit even more marginal players.

I agree with you regarding the Baseball vs. Pro Football Halls of Fame. But it's bullshit that we are penalizing the PED guys as compared to all the guys we lionize that took amphetamines like it was going out of style. For what it's worth, offense depressed more after amphetamines were banned than it did when PED testing and punishment started.

I really don't care what self-righteous indignation Goose Gossage, Frank Robinson or Reggie Jackson have about PED users who they feel diminish their accomplishments. It's just the modern version of the "old ballplayers never die" sections from Bill James' historical baseball abstract.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

weird. To me, a HOF filled with Dale Murphys is infinitely less interesting than a HOF filled with Barry Bonds, Pete Roses, Ty Cobbs, etc.

""""""""".

[Buccaneer]

But we didn't see a bunch of players all of a sudden increase their hr totals by 30-50% for multiple seasons. That would not have occurred naturally as the past 5 seasons have shown. The steroid era stands out as by far the biggest aberration on the game since babe Ruth. I'm glad that it is over with and results have returned to the predictable level before the aberration and those that obviously contributed to the mockery will not be rewarded with a plaque 'honoring' their dubious achievements.

[Buccaneer]

I guess some of you have never been to the national baseball museum. Do so before yapping about the lack of bonds, Cobb, and rose displays. Whole display cases of them are interesting.

[jbergey22]

Who really cares. We dont get to vote anyway.

I care more about the FOFC MLB Hall of Fame. Seems to have more qualified voters at least.

[sterlingice]

Sounds like a fun poll series

SI

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Who really cares. We dont get to vote anyway.

I care more about the FOFC MLB Hall of Fame. Seems to have more qualified voters at least.

yeah but currently has 0 members.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

But we didn't see a bunch of players all of a sudden increase their hr totals by 30-50% for multiple seasons. That would not have occurred naturally as the past 5 seasons have shown. The steroid era stands out as by far the biggest aberration on the game since babe Ruth. I'm glad that it is over with and results have returned to the predictable level before the aberration and those that obviously contributed to the mockery will not be rewarded with a plaque 'honoring' their dubious achievements.

This is bullshit of the highest order, and you ought to get called on it.

Home Run Rates in 1998 and 2012 | FanGraphs Baseball

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

lying sumbitch like Clemens in it ought to be burned to the fucking ground.

citation needed

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This is bullshit of the highest order, and you ought to get called on it.

Home Run Rates in 1998 and 2012 | FanGraphs Baseball

Don't bother with facts. The lynch mob is still in full swing.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This is bullshit of the highest order, and you ought to get called on it.

Home Run Rates in 1998 and 2012 | FanGraphs Baseball

One thing I've always wondered Bout is how much impact expansion had on this. Expansion in 1993...jump. Then stabilization. In 1998, expansion and then another jump.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by rowech

One thing I've always wondered Bout is how much impact expansion had on this. Expansion in 1993...jump. Then stabilization. In 1998, expansion and then another jump.

That's always been one of the theories out there. However, the hitting talent is diluted just like the pitching talent from expansion. That basically implies it's harder to throw at a MLB level than hit at an MLB level. I'm not really sure how to quantify that, tho.

SI

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This is bullshit of the highest order, and you ought to get called on it.

Home Run Rates in 1998 and 2012 | FanGraphs Baseball

SteroidsEra was from 1998-2006, not just one year. Those years where higher than the past five years, which is what I said.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This is bullshit of the highest order, and you ought to get called on it.

Home Run Rates in 1998 and 2012 | FanGraphs Baseball

LMAO. So this guy does all this work to provide us with data from 1993-2012 and then provides a conclusion based on two individual years in that time span. Using that guy's own numbers:

1993-97: 3.52%
1998-06: 3.84%
2007-12: 3.58%

[Buccaneer]

Look, I am not condenming everyone who played during those years, just the ones showing up in the the red circle below. Got it?

[AENeuman]

Not following too closely here, but is the consensus that PEDs didn't help pitchers or that there just is not a neat stat like home runs that can quantify its effect?

The era of the greatest performance enhancing has to be when white hitters and pitchers were purposely shielded from facing often superior black players.

[PilotMan]

This might as well be the best thread to put this:

I hadn't really heard of this yes. I find it interesting that players already retired aren't grandfathered in and that the limits don't start moving forward.

Hall Of Fame Eligibility Rule Change Bones "Poster Boys" Of Steroid Era

Basically, retired players now only have 10 years of eligibility instead of 15. I really think it changes the decision making process for who is going in and who isn't.

[Peregrine]

I don't think those steroid guys would be going in anyway but it certainly hurts them - especially McGwire.

[Young Drachma]

Fuck the BBWA

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Hall Of Fame Eligibility Rule Change Bones "Poster Boys" Of Steroid Era

And a group well-deserving of said treatment afaic.

[Shkspr]

Yeah, fuck Tim Raines.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Yeah, fuck Tim Raines.

You're really expecting sympathy for a guy who carried a vial of cocaine around in his uniform?

[Shkspr]

I don't think anyone would expect sympathy from you for kittens in a microwave.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

I don't think anyone would expect sympathy from you for kittens in a microwave.

I like kittens tyvm.

(resists temptation to make a "... in a lovely red wine sauce" joke)

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You're really expecting sympathy for a guy who carried a vial of cocaine around in his uniform?

Tim Raines was a customer of the then future Mrs PM, at the bank where she worked, when we were in FL. When we got married her gift to me was a signed ball and a couple of cards from him. She said he was a really nice guy. Shaq's mom was also super nice, but Lee Corso was a dick.