FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[tarcone]

Well, 4 police officers shot in St. Louis last night.

Yeah, this going real well for the police and their tactics.

And Trump is just agitating. Way to be a leader.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Right and it's never about race to you, unless someone actually uses a slur, because your white privilege is so high you can't see over it. Or let's just call a spade a spade, you are just a fucking racist.

I used to think you were just the white moderate that MLK warned about, but no, it's beyond that. The pendantism about racism definitions was just carrying water for white supremacy.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I like the personal attacks and insults. Keep it coming.

But don't forget the ADL definition of racism. Otherwise I will have to give you another lesson.

[ISiddiqui]

Funny you say that, because the ADL has issued a statement on the George Floyd murder calling for systemic change:

https://www.adl.org/news/press-relea...f-george-floyd

More from the ADL here:

https://www.adl.org/education/resour...aw-enforcement

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[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No. US is still a great country and a land of opportunity. It does have problems though for sure.

BTW I love Philippines and hoping to go back there. I have visited Manila and Palawan.

Hope you guys are staying safe.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Funny you say that, because the ADL has issued a statement on the George Floyd murder calling for systemic change:

ADL Statement on Killing of George Floyd | Anti-Defamation League

More from the ADL here:

George Floyd, Racism and Law Enforcement

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Great. I tossed out that Obama/Michele should lead the change because they have (see other posts). But you called me insane.

BTW, did you stop and reflect on the ADL definition of racism, the nuances of "being superior" and "person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics"? Sounds like the caste system doesn't it. Since you got so personal and called me a white "fucking racist", wondering if you or your parents are Brahmin?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Hope you guys are staying safe.

Thanks. I've been wanting to visit again (different island). Any idea when is a good time?

[ISiddiqui]

Lol, you are so fucking racist you think I'm an Indian Hindu!! That's quite a self own, Edward.

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[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Lol, you are so fucking racist you think I'm an Indian Hindu!! That's quite a self own, Edward.

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Oh, not from Pakistan? My bad, sorry. Probably just as lame as you thinking I'm white.

EDIT: Nope, I checked. You are 3/4 Pakistani. Because you got so personal ... so what caste are you or one/both of your parents again? Don't be ashamed of your heritage.

[corbes]

We shouldn't ever tolerate a personal attack based upon a forum member's race or national origin.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Well, 4 police officers shot in St. Louis last night.

Yeah, this going real well for the police and their tactics.

And Trump is just agitating. Way to be a leader.

And I bet his base will be calling for heavier equipment for the police.

[Coffee Warlord]

Curious what some of you guys think is the correct response to stop looters and vandals at this point, and/or what would have prevented it in the first place. "Floyd not being killed" doesn't count - same prerequisites, what would you have done differently then, what would you do now.

[Lathum]

Let’s chill a bit here fellas.....

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Curious what some of you guys think is the correct response to stop looters and vandals at this point, and/or what would have prevented it in the first place. "Floyd not being killed" doesn't count - same prerequisites, what would you have done differently then, what would you do now.

I think putting resources toward them and less toward the protests would help a lot. I know they have a vested interest in shutting down the protests but the city should come before pride.

In Chicago the actual protest was fine. People chanting and it was for the most part self-policed. Heavy police presence wasn't necessary and only made things worse. The looting took place in other areas that the cops ignored. Once word got out, it was game on for the looters.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Curious what some of you guys think is the correct response to stop looters and vandals at this point, and/or what would have prevented it in the first place. "Floyd not being killed" doesn't count - same prerequisites, what would you have done differently then, what would you do now.

I think police departments asking to partner with protestors to protect property and the right to protest would have been a much better solution. I also wouldn't have a problem with the National Guard being called in just as protection in business districts with as little interaction as possible with protests.

It's tough because the looters aren't a single entity. There are anarchists, white supremacists, local criminals, people just looking for free stuff, protestors looking to destroy something, etc. I think, though, that a lot of the protestors understand the damage the looters can do to their cause.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Oh, not from Pakistan? My bad, sorry. Probably just as lame as you thinking I'm white.

EDIT: Nope, I checked. You are 3/4 Pakistani. Because you got so personal ... so what caste are you or one/both of your parents again? Don't be ashamed of your heritage.

That edit is way out of bounds.

[BYU 14]

Look at this link. This shit is just spiraling into lunacy and the fact that people are so brainwashed/ignorant to believe this is both sad and frightening. It's like too many don't care about truth anymore, only what want the truth/reality to be and it is dangerous.

'All of It Is Toxic': Misinformation About Protests Surges Online

Hell, even on this board, where off topic is generally civil, discourse usually fair and perspectives are usually presented in a thoughtful manner we are getting drug into the abyss. Discussion is degenerating into a degree of vitriol that is frankly fairly uncommon here, and respect is a forgotten tenant.

There are so many moving pieces in this, that it is impossible and counter-productive to get so entrenched so deeply in just parts if it.

It's complex and my household is a microcosm of that.

1-We are an interracial family

2-I have a black son who I worry about and yes he made a bad mistake and had a brush with the law 7 years ago. If this had happened to him people would drudge this up, highlight it, label him a thug and mock those that depicted him as an upstanding citizen. Well guess what, he is! He is a model father who busts his ass so his wife can stay him with their baby girl while she is in her formative years and he is full of love, compassion and positivity. He just fucked up, bad, and rightfully paid for it.

Let me tell you how we handled it. We moved his 21 year old ass back home, but him on a curfew, laid out detailed and specific guidelines on how he would resolve his legal situation and held him to those guidelines. He couldn't have friends over and if he missed curfew he slept in his care in the driveway and going anywhere else was not an option or he was out. We made him exceed the community service given to him because we felt is was too light. He paid back every penny we spent to assist with his legal fees. He was basically treated like a child because he had demonstrated he was not ready to be an adult. Guess what, he learned and that bump on his road to life will never define him and we are proud that he embraced our tough love and took accountability.

3-I have a white son who is in law enforcement and the "there are good cops too" is not a cliche because he is one. How do I know? Because that is how he was raised and he embraces the opportunity to serve. Is he perfect. hell no, he is moody as hell sometimes but he is mentally strong enough to never take a bad day to work or let the last call influence the next and while he is military law enforcement, because of his assignment, he still deals mostly with the public and the same menagerie of assholes everyone civilian force does. Let's talk about shit he has done that is routine with a lot of LEO's that you only know about because I am telling you.

Back in Maryland he prevented someone from getting on to the base that was high as fuck and had a back seat full of loaded weapons, that they planned to do who knows what with. How about the narrative good cops stop bad cops from doing bad things. He intervened with a civilian officer who was getting overzealous with a drug bust because the guy getting arrested was over the top with spitting, comments, threats etc. He stopped what at best would have been a beating of a handcuffed suspect and you know this happens all over the country and never gets attention. Police on a daily basis get cursed, shit thrown at them, filmed as people try to goad them into a mistake. Yes they are held to a much higher standard of mental toughness and if they can't practice it should not be on the job, but that shit is worse than it has ever been, but it NEVER makes misconduct alright.

So as a dad I worry a lot about both of them much more than my other 3 children (my other 2 sons, and my only daughter who is black) . I worry that one will end up unfairly because of the color of his skin and the other will be targeted for the badge on his chest. It forces me to learn more about both of their worlds. Coaching for so long has broadened my perspective as well, since I need to be able to relate to the kids I coach and I genuinely care about all of them like they were my sons as well.

My point is;
1-There are feel good moments in this

2-There are atrocities in this and they are inexcusable, especially from the law enforcement side. But we also can't let the evil that has infiltrated one of the most important causes in America now go unchecked.

3-Whether you think so or not there are police that call out their brethren for not upholding the honor of the badge and there are those that don't

4-There are people that hurt and need to be acknowledged, supported and championed as equals that deserve equal opportunity and most of all equal dignity. We need to make changes and embrace them, while drowning out the voices of hate

5-We need to acknowledge, condemn and severely punish those that could give a shit about racial injustice and use this as an opportunity to eradicate the influence these fringe groups, left and right have on society.

6-We need to vote in competent leadership and hold them accountable, half are government officials are acting like fucking grade schoolers right now. STFU with your tweets and partisan bickering and show us meaningful action. And many are and quite frankly some in a very bi-partisan way, but it is not enough right now.

7-Bring respect into this moment as a basic tenant and start listening to others and take the time to talk to and learn form those different than you. This country is lost and 2020 has been the perfect storm to expose it.

All these pieces aren't mutually exclusive, so dammit, why can't we respect each other more here in this forum? There are good people in this community that I respect a lot, with great ideas that may differ, but eventually lead to the same destination. Let's be better than the personal attacks. Anger doesn't always have to lead to confrontation

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That edit is way out of bounds.

I thought it was a measured response to him calling me a white "fucking racist". Is that within bounds for you?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Oh, not from Pakistan? My bad, sorry. Probably just as lame as you thinking I'm white.

EDIT: Nope, I checked. You are 3/4 Pakistani. Because you got so personal ... so what caste are you or one/both of your parents again? Don't be ashamed of your heritage.

Radii was right. I mean, I knew it then, but this is just further evidence.

[RainMaker]

Tear gas, then handcuffs: I am an Inquirer journalist who was arrested for doing my job

[Ben E Lou]

Edward, Imran, retreat to your corners. Now.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I thought it was a measured response to him calling me a white "fucking racist". Is that within bounds for you?

Not gonna debate.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Edward, Imran, retreat to your corners. Now.

Done.

Let's not ever respond to each other's post or reference each other.

[illinifan999]

Like 95% of the protesters are trying to spread a good message and shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of the other 5%.

[ISiddiqui]

Ben,

I'm good. He just responded to being called a fucking racist by engaging in a racist attack. So nothing further from me.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

His mask has been off for awhile now. Just further proving it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

His mask has been off for awhile now. Just further proving it.

I'd be happy to go one-on-one with you. Feel free to start with an explicit personal insult.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I thought it was a measured response to him calling me a white "fucking racist". Is that within bounds for you?

He called you a racist for the words in your posts. You then tried to use his racial background against him in a gotcha attempt. Not his words. His racial background.

If you can't see the difference, then you are a lost cause.

[NobodyHere]

Can't we all just get along?

[Ben E Lou]

Enough. Time to drop it and move on.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A rubber bullet is a type of baton round.

Rubber bullet - Wikipedia

That may have been the case when they were created 40 or 50 years ago, but now the belt buckle is the point of aim. Trying to skip a round can alter its end point and increase the chance of injury.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

My point is;
1-There are feel good moments in this

2-There are atrocities in this and they are inexcusable, especially from the law enforcement side. But we also can't let the evil that has infiltrated one of the most important causes in America now go unchecked.

3-Whether you think so or not there are police that call out their brethren for not upholding the honor of the badge and there are those that don't

4-There are people that hurt and need to be acknowledged, supported and championed as equals that deserve equal opportunity and most of all equal dignity. We need to make changes and embrace them, while drowning out the voices of hate

5-We need to acknowledge, condemn and severely punish those that could give a shit about racial injustice and use this as an opportunity to eradicate the influence these fringe groups, left and right have on society.

6-We need to vote in competent leadership and hold them accountable, half are government officials are acting like fucking grade schoolers right now. STFU with your tweets and partisan bickering and show us meaningful action. And many are and quite frankly some in a very bi-partisan way, but it is not enough right now.

7-Bring respect into this moment as a basic tenant and start listening to others and take the time to talk to and learn form those different than you. This country is lost and 2020 has been the perfect storm to expose it.

All these pieces aren't mutually exclusive, so dammit, why can't we respect each other more here in this forum? There are good people in this community that I respect a lot, with great ideas that may differ, but eventually lead to the same destination. Let's be better than the personal attacks. Anger doesn't always have to lead to confrontation

Great (and well timed) Post!

To get back to the current situation with protesting and rioting, I think we have to do better with joining/respecting the daily protests and ensure the message of many people fighting for change during the day get heard. I have seen some great messages by protesters (and some cops joining in) during the day. On the flip side, everyone needs to put out a message that anyone protesting after curfew is not part of the change effort we need (and just being opportunist in many cases). We don't want the good work attempted during the day being undone by idiots at night.

Finally, one of my biggest fears is when the private crew in open carry states (Washington, Arizona, Texas, etc) decides to start "protecting" businesses and "helping" cops. This could get ugly real fast if we don't do more to stop the looting after curfew.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Can't we all just get along?

You know, I looked him up this past weekend because I was thinking the exact phrase and wondering what happened to him. Died in 2012.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Like 95% of the protesters are trying to spread a good message and shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of the other 5%.

Can't compare the two. One is taxpayer funded and given special legal powers on behalf of the state. They have to held to the highest standard.

Like the Chris Rock bit, some jobs can't have bad apples.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Can't compare the two. One is taxpayer funded and given special legal powers on behalf of the state. They have to held to the highest standard.

Like the Chris Rock bit, some jobs can't have bad apples.

Tough reality when both groups are comprised of human beings. Much like protesters can’t control everyone in their own localized protest, cops in Charotte can’t control the actions of cops in Minneapolis.

[ISiddiqui]

So today is #BlackOutTuesday where people are supposed to show their support for the protests against police brutality and George Floyd's murder by posting a black status (or profile picture) on social media.

The shocking thing to me is that NASCAR posted a blackout status and a number of NASCAR drivers, including Dale Jr (who has always been somewhat progressive on racial issues), 7 time champ, Jimmie Johnson, and 2019 Cup series champ, Kyle Busch.

This thing is making some real waves.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Tough reality when both groups are comprised of human beings. Much like protesters can’t control everyone in their own localized protest, cops in Charotte can’t control the actions of cops in Minneapolis.

But Minneapolis cops can police Minneapolis cops. The 3 cops that stood by and watched their colleague murder someone could have done something. In all these videos of police brutality other cops are there and can stop or report it.

You either have a lot of bad apples or a lot of cops who don't have a problem with bad apples.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like the Chris Rock bit, some jobs can't have bad apples.

This is where I get off the train. There is no such thing. All humans have flaws and are bad apples to some degree. There is no even theoretical much less practically applicable way to eliminate all of them.

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Curious what some of you guys think is the correct response to stop looters and vandals at this point, and/or what would have prevented it in the first place.

I don't think it is preventable. I think focusing resources differently as suggested helps some, but not all that much. If you don't have significant police presence at the protests, looters can use those as cover. If you do, it dilutes what you can put elsewhere. The examples that have been shown in Flint MI, parts of Florida, etc. of police meeting the protests in a conciliatory way is the best answer I have. That helps limit the escalation I think. You can always ramp up response if/when people cross the line, but don't start by hitting a gnat with a sledgehammer. Try to defuse things first (and don't do the abusive crap we've seen).

Whenever you have this many people out protesting (and that's a good thing, I'm not implying otherwhise), opportunists are going to take advantage of the situation. Human nature being what it is, the reality that some of that will happen is part of the price of freedom.

[Butter]

Any cops that have seen any bad behavior and haven't reported it and/or condone it are bad. Sorry, but it's the truth. And I'd bet it's most of them.

Cops that are out there tear gassing and pepper spraying protestors are bad cops.

"What would you have them do differently" someone asked. How about not being geared to the teeth and itching to use it. How about honoring the people's right to peaceful protest. None of that has been done from what I see.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The 3 cops that stood by and watched their colleague murder someone could have done something. In all these videos of police brutality other cops are there and can stop or report it.

This I totally agree with. It appears to me that some departments have their heads screwed on straight and others have problems not just with rogue officers but going up and down the chain of command. A lot of the things that have happened don't happen with this level of frequency without being tolerated if not condoned by superiors. You can see in some videos, one example being the one Ben posted, where they are discussing amongst themselves and then they go violate somebody's rights. Either somebody's giving an order, a group of them decide to go off and do something wrong on their own, or they are carrying out instructions given by superiors ahead of time.

None of those are acceptable. It's sad to me that we seem to find it hard to simultaneously applaud those serving with honor and courage while also rooting out the obvious issues here. We really need to be able to do both.

Originally Posted by Butter

None of that has been done from what I see.

With all due respect if you haven't seen it you've been ignoring what's in front of your face. There's been lots of well-distributed video such as those I've referenced of police trying to defuse the situation, marching with the protestors, etc.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Enough. Time to drop it and move on.

Drop it means drop it. Removed some unhelpful posts/comments that occurred below this one. I'm being more lenient because I know that some folks are less measured and more emotional these days, but suspensions aren't off the table if it keeps on.

[spleen1015]

People lost posts?

WTF, Skydog? You're a dictator sometimes!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

People lost posts?

WTF, Skydog? You're a dictator sometimes!

One true dark jedi gonna one true dark jedi.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Edward, Imran, retreat to your corners. Now.

First, I just want to say thank-you for the restraint. I thought for sure we were about to perma-lose one if not two of the few remaining voices here. Hats off, sir. If only more LEO could follow your lead.

[Qwikshot]

We got a president and his lackeys out a whistleblower, defy subpoenas, and bully or discredit any opposing voice?

You think anyone who means to keep their job after seeing that is going to speak up? You know hard that would be? Especially if you work a job where you rely on others to protect you?

Trump just twittered “silent majority” he doesn’t mean they are with him he means they are silent (complicit).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

With all due respect if you haven't seen it you've been ignoring what's in front of your face. There's been lots of well-distributed video such as those I've referenced of police trying to defuse the situation, marching with the protestors, etc.

"If it bleeds, it leads."


Yes, there are tons of examples of that, but that stuff doesn't get headlines, and I blame consumers for that. Too many people consume "their side's" media because they're not looking for the truth as much as for ammunition to hurl against the other side. The media giants are in the business of making money first, and they've learned that advancing their audience's preferred narrative is the easiest way to do that. CNN and MSNBC get more eyeballs if they show police behaving badly. FOX gets more if they show protestors/Antifa behaving badly. Neither do as well when they show protestors and cops marching arm in arm. This ain't rocket science.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

This is where I get off the train. There is no such thing. All humans have flaws and are bad apples to some degree. There is no even theoretical much less practically applicable way to eliminate all of them.

Intellectually I get that and understand that it is going to happen.

Morally I think its imperative that we never allow that be acceptable. This has to be a case where you don't get a second chance.

I think if the consequences are swift, universal and punitive - while you would never eliminate - you would certainly reduce bad LEO behavior.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

With all due respect if you haven't seen it you've been ignoring what's in front of your face. There's been lots of well-distributed video such as those I've referenced of police trying to defuse the situation, marching with the protestors, etc.

I'll amend my statement to "not much of it has been done". Certainly not nearly enough.

Cincinnati and Dayton both have escalated protests by use of force. I overheard someone at a grocery store that was first hand in a protest that got fired at with rubber bullets and gassed. For not complying. The people have the right to peaceably assemble and protest. No force should be used in these situations. If they want to drag people off and arrest them, fine. But what they're doing is ridiculous.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Cops trying to stop looters. Unfortunately too many doughnuts but good try.

Looting at Vans in Atlantic City pic.twitter.com/GI1THoTnbG

— Amy S. Rosenberg (@amysrosenberg) May 31, 2020

The guy that ran out and dropped everything reminded me of Flounder in animal house

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I think if the consequences are swift, universal and punitive - while you would never eliminate - you would certainly reduce bad LEO behavior.

100% agree here.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I think if the consequences are swift, universal and punitive - while you would never eliminate - you would certainly reduce bad LEO behavior.

Like this. Start doing this and I guarantee the bad apples either shape up or get shipped out. Cops commit crime and are fired and charged.

6 Atlanta officers charged after students pulled from car