FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Arles

As a dola, I also want to say this is a very good conversation to have. My point is it isn't as simple as many of the BLM protestors might believe it to be - nor is it as scary/daunting as many that oppose it think. It just has to be done right and my fear in all this is public pressure will force some rash decisions with unfortunate consequences that could have been avoided with a little more planning.

Lord knows I've been pretty vocal about how horrified I've been the last couple of weeks but I was firmly in the camp of reforms, not completely change and/or defund. I'm not sure it's right or wrong - I had just never thought about it.

SI

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ice-department

Thank you, that is definitely a model I think cities across the country can look at and learn from.

[Radii]

There are different groups who want different things when it comes to the phrases "Abolish The Police" and "Defund The Police".

The most aggressive group I'm personally aware of is a group called MPD150 in Minneapolis which uses the phrase Abolish in a literal sense. Much of what they suggest seems to be shared ideas/ideals by many other groups. Stop adding more funding to police departments and start putting that money into community programs. A transition into a smaller police force with experts trained in mental health areas, and in family and domestic situations to respond to many of the calls currently made that the same police with shockingly little training respond to.

Many black activists, organizers, advocates and charity groups are making the argument that police reform is not possible. Many reforms in many departments have not worked as expected, and the entire concept of the police in the United States is rotten to its core, so the entire system must be torn down, take every community action that is possible away from the police and to other groups of trained individuals, leaving as small a force as is necessary to handle violent crime.


The messaging is definitely not uniform because even among Black Lives Matter nationwide there isn't uniform agreement and organizations in different states can be very different. So you have a large number of ideas being presented in different ways, there are certainly some democratic politicians who will tell us all how much they support Black Lives Matter who are actively working to find the minimum necessary changes to make to appease everyone.


I will point out that the various organizations making pitches in various states are not doing so out of surprise that something is working now. These orgs with these goals have been around for awhile, but most of us just have the privilege that we don't need to know anything about it until something like this happens.

Even aggressive abolish organizations like MPD150 recognize that this isn't something that happens overnight. They have an idealized vision of a very long process of building up community resources while tearing down the current racist structures. Other areas of systemic racism that we aren't really talking about right now would need to be changed to accomplish all of these goals as well.

Apologies for speaking pretty generically here. I've been reading a lot of information from a LOT of sources over the last couple weeks and trying to educate myself and get involved in this movement as a much more active ally than I have been in the past, and the info crosses lines. But, hopefully the general concepts at this high level help to answer some of the questions from the last couple pages?


Here is a series of images I've seen shared a lot from MPD150 as somewhat of a FAQ, sorry that it's a PDF:

https://www.mpd150.com/wp-content/th...s/faq_zine.pdf

Do keep in mind this is simply one group with one vision, and not "the way things are going to be" in Minneapolis or anywhere else. And even I as left as I find myself drifting find a lot of things on here to be a naive and idealized. But, as one possible option for one possible starting point for a possible conversation, there you go.

[Arles]

I think one of the biggest issue is the discipline process that many police unions have negotiated. There are instances where independent committees/chiefs hand down a harsh punishment (even firings), only to see them reduced either in arbitration or in separate police discipline hearings (often run by cops). Defunding the police may be the only way to get these types of reforms.

[Ryche]

With the crunch coming to local budgets, the police and everything else is going to be defunded.

[Carman Bulldog]

Directly from the MPD150 website:

But what about armed bank robbers, murderers, and supervillains?

Crime isn’t random. Most of the time, it happens when someone has been unable to meet their basic needs through other means. By shifting money away from the police and toward services that actually meet those needs, we’ll be able to get to a place where people won’t need to rob banks.

Although I'm glad that they have figured out a way to prevent all armed bank robberies, they haven't yet convinced me on murderers or, most importantly, supervillains.

[sterlingice]

Wait? Supervillains? Every time there's a supervillain out there, the cops are helpless and it takes someone like Superman to take care of them.

SI

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Wait? Supervillains? Every time there's a supervillain out there, the cops are helpless and it takes someone like Superman to take care of them.

SI

True, but Batman's ability to fight crime really went downhill once he was forced to answer to a civilian review board.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Wait? Supervillains? Every time there's a supervillain out there, the cops are helpless and it takes someone like Superman to take care of them.

SI

This is where Space Force comes in. Trump once again, ahead of us all.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

This is where Space Force comes in. Trump once again, ahead of us all.

Screw Space Force, we need MegaForce

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Directly from the MPD150 website:

Although I'm glad that they have figured out a way to prevent all armed bank robberies, they haven't yet convinced me on murderers or, most importantly, supervillains.

Unless we're talking serial killers, I don't think cops really stop murderers anyway. If someone really wants you dead, they can very likely succeed. It's just a matter of getting caught afterwards or not.

[PilotMan]

This ought to get Edward's attention- A DEFINITION!

hxxps://www.theroot.com/a-missouri-woman-got-merriam-webster-to-agree-to-update-1843981946

A Missouri Woman Got Merriam-Webster to Agree to Update Its Definition of Racism

According to CNN, 22-year-old Kennedy Mitchum—a Drake University graduate living in Florissant, Mo.—emailed the dictionary’s publishers about making the change last month and was surprised that they responded and agreed to update the entry...

...Merriam-Webster editor Peter Sokolowski pointed out to CNN that they also define racism as “a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles” and “a political or social system founded on racism,” but he agreed that “we can express this more clearly to bring the idea of an asymmetrical power structure into the language of this definition.”

...a new definition is being drafted.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by 1984

It’s a beautiful thing, the Destruction of words

.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

.

Semantic change - Wikipedia

[GrantDawg]

Trumpist going to Trump.

View this post on Instagram

Right here in South Jersey! Don’t be naive! Some Posted @withregram • @stfuml This is what James J Demarco did while my brother @russy06 was peacefully protesting in Franklinville NJ. James works for @fedex so now I want to know does this employees behavior align with your company policy? #BLM #blacklivesmatter #blackouttuesday #icantbreathe #georgefloyd #justiceforgeorgefloyd #naacp #civilrights #breonnataylor #saytheirnames #racism #racist #repost

A post shared by Jason Avant (@j_avant81) on Jun 8, 2020 at 7:51pm PDT

[sabotai]

Other knee not his back, they're not on the pavement, his hands are not cuffed behind his back. Pretty poor re-enactment.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Other knee not his back, they're not on the pavement, his hands are not cuffed behind his back. Pretty poor re-enactment.

It is mocking more than reenacting.

[PilotMan]

TBF they don't call South Jersey "the Alabama part" for nothing.

[BYU 14]

This is an episode of R2C2 with a panel of black baseball players discussing race and their experiences. Worth a listen.

CC Sabathia Brings Black Baseball Players Together for an Honest Conversation About Race | R2C2 - YouTube

[PilotMan]

This feels oddly timely in an PSA kind of way.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

This ought to get Edward's attention- A DEFINITION!

hxxps://www.theroot.com/a-missouri-woman-got-merriam-webster-to-agree-to-update-1843981946

A Missouri Woman Got Merriam-Webster to Agree to Update Its Definition of Racism

According to CNN, 22-year-old Kennedy Mitchum—a Drake University graduate living in Florissant, Mo.—emailed the dictionary’s publishers about making the change last month and was surprised that they responded and agreed to update the entry...

...Merriam-Webster editor Peter Sokolowski pointed out to CNN that they also define racism as “a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles” and “a political or social system founded on racism,” but he agreed that “we can express this more clearly to bring the idea of an asymmetrical power structure into the language of this definition.”

...a new definition is being drafted.

Thanks for the heads up. The MW definition is

The Merriam-Webster dictionary has defined racism as “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.” Even that definition somewhat disqualifies black people from being racist since our fight tends to be for equality, not “superiority.” Still, we have often argued that the current definition is far too vague to accurately describe the impact of the only type of racism that really matters—systemic racism.

Which is pretty close to ADL definition with the common denominator "inherent superiority" (ADL says "inferior or superior").

Not sure I buy the argument that current MW "disqualifies black people from being racist" but looking forward to new definition.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is mocking more than reenacting.

I was not being serious.

[illinifan999]

It's looking fairly likely a protester in my area is going to die after other protesters pulled down a confederate statue (that was already scheduled to be removed) on top of them.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

This feels oddly timely in an PSA kind of way.

Thanks for that....very informative. Who knew?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Trumpist going to Trump.

View this post on Instagram

Right here in South Jersey! Don’t be naive! Some Posted @withregram • @stfuml This is what James J Demarco did while my brother @russy06 was peacefully protesting in Franklinville NJ. James works for @fedex so now I want to know does this employees behavior align with your company policy? #BLM #blacklivesmatter #blackouttuesday #icantbreathe #georgefloyd #justiceforgeorgefloyd #naacp #civilrights #breonnataylor #saytheirnames #racism #racist #repost

A post shared by Jason Avant (@j_avant81) on Jun 8, 2020 at 7:51pm PDT

He Gone

You have been blocked

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

TBF they don't call South Jersey "the Alabama part" for nothing.

You get down into the pine barrens and it really is like Florida.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You get down into the pine barrens and it really is like Florida.

My wife's girlfriend lives there, but closer to the hippie part than the "scary" part as she tells it. She wouldn't even take my wife down there.

[NobodyHere]

Two London police officers attacked in 'shocking' incident

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Two London police officers attacked in 'shocking' incident

This is the shocking attack:

[sterlingice]

Oh, are we going back to the part where we list all of the incidents that have happened? Because the last I saw, the Twitter account tallying police brutality cases from the protests was in the 300s or 400s and that's going to take a lot of posts.

SI

[RainMaker]

Well over 400 now.

GeorgeFloyd Protest - police brutality videos on Twitter - Google Drive

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Oh, are we going back to the part where we list all of the incidents that have happened? Because the last I saw, the Twitter account tallying police brutality cases from the protests was in the 300s or 400s and that's going to take a lot of posts.

SI

To be clear, I found that video to be completely underwhelming. After reading the article I expected some horrific attack but it seemed like the media and mayor over there were just searching for any kind of video they could use to express their grave concerns.

Also, I vote for sharing more police brutality videos. Here's an insane story/video of police handcuffing and arresting a teenager for jaywalking on a road with no sidewalk.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/tu...ing/index.html

[RainMaker]

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

Wow. The total lack of respect.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Who doesn't want to get jammed up on the highway bridge 5,000 deep, during a global pandemic? I am much more wired for the boycott, a protest based entirely on me not attending.

It's chilling to think how many of these people might be dead soon, not from police brutality but from COVID-19, which doesn't discriminate.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

This quote is from another article but about the same incident:

“Their conduct will confirm the perception that too many people on the South and the West Side were left to fend for themselves,” Lightfoot said. “That police don’t care if black and brown communities are looted and burned.

I thought the people didn't want the police in their communities.

[RainMaker]

They don't want them harassing them and killing them. Something Chicago Police are incapable of doing.

[Carman Bulldog]

I thought the whole idea was that police only escalate protests, so they should stay away.

[Atocep]

I thought there were only a few bag eggs and police generally do the right thing.

[RainMaker]

The story about some BLM protester ambushing a cop in California has been debunked. Turned out to be some far-right nut part of that dumb civil war thing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...blood-n1230321

[Arles]

I can't speak for everywhere, but I've witnessed two BLM protests (one right near the High School by our house) and talked with people (two guys on the police force) at three others in Scottsdale, Phoenix and Tempe. I haven't heard one report of violence by protesters against police or anything significant from the police to protesters. In two of them, the chiefs actually walked with the protesters. I'm not sure they could have gone any better and that's a credit to everyone involved (esp the local BLM leadership here in Phoenix).

[rjolley]

Does anyone know why some of the police officers are against reform and/or accountability? I've seen some articles that seem to talk about why some are for it, but not much about why they aren't. Has anyone heard anything either from officers or online?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

To be clear, I found that video to be completely underwhelming. After reading the article I expected some horrific attack but it seemed like the media and mayor over there were just searching for any kind of video they could use to express their grave concerns.

Also, I vote for sharing more police brutality videos. Here's an insane story/video of police handcuffing and arresting a teenager for jaywalking on a road with no sidewalk.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/tu...ing/index.html

No, over here that is shocking. You just don’t see police being attacked in that way, and the guy dancing while taking a selfie amazed me.

Now I’m a white middle class guy in a small market town, and have never lived in the inner city estates, so I don’t see a lot of police or problems with the police (which is largely why I haven’t posted in this thread for a while), but I would never expect to see that.

I’ve refrained from posting in this thread as I didn’t want the blowback, but the reaction to this video demonstrates what I was thinking of posting earlier: although there are issues with policing here, quite frankly the law and order situations in the UK and US are worlds apart, and I can only attribute it to the possible results of trying to enforce laws.

This is not a ‘get rid of guns’ post, or a criticism of the police on either side of the pond, more of a general observation - the danger a police officer here faces is generally from physical confrontations and close quarter weapons like knives, or medium range things like objects being thrown at them. In the states it’s much more likely that s suspect is armed.

It’s only logical to me that a US officer is therefore going to feel much more in danger of being hurt/worse from distance given the vastly increased likelihood the suspect is armed. This must mean they are more ‘safety first’ for themselves, which is also likely to make them much more assertive/aggressive/outright scared compared to a UK officer, leading to a higher risk of act first think later actions

This must in turn mean that there is more fear of suspects being hurt/worse by the police in the US, which escalates their reaction, and it’s a vicious circle

It’s clearly not the only problem, but isn’t the naivety of being shocked by the video of the UK officers kinda nice in a way, compared to some of the videos of the police and coming out of the US over the last couple of weeks?

I don’t know the answer, because I can see the 2A is going anywhere, and even if it did, the guns themselves likely wouldn’t, but to ignore the effect on police/public interactions of more of the population being armed, and the resultant need for the police to be more heavily armed, is going to miss a part of the overall picture.

[Lathum]

I am a decent NASCAR fan and have never heard of this dude, but way to show the world you're a racist.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/ra...rnd/index.html

I also love the hypocrisy. He is quitting because he doesn't think peoples rights to fly any flag they want should be limited, but kneeling bad!!!

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/06/ray...erate-flag-ban

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am a decent NASCAR fan and have never heard of this dude, but way to show the world you're a racist.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/ra...rnd/index.html

I also love the hypocrisy. He is quitting because he doesn't think peoples rights to fly any flag they want should be limited, but kneeling bad!!!

Twitter roasts NASCAR driver who is quitting over Confederate flag ban

Dudes average finish in the truck series is like 25th in his career. I love the exact quote. "all you are doing is f―-ing one group to cater to another"

So NASCAR is fucking over those that continue to rally around a flag of rebellion and treason against the United States but "catering" to those that just want justice? Guy is a world class fuckhead.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am a decent NASCAR fan and have never heard of this dude, but way to show the world you're a racist.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/ra...rnd/index.html

I also love the hypocrisy. He is quitting because he doesn't think peoples rights to fly any flag they want should be limited, but kneeling bad!!!

Twitter roasts NASCAR driver who is quitting over Confederate flag ban

Ray Ciccarelli (0-31 in his career) has announced his retirement from NASCAR due to their decision to ban confederate flags. NASCAR is scrambling to find someone else to regularly finish 28th.

It's no surprise. Ciccarelli has never been good at anything race-related.

— Steve Hofstetter (@SteveHofstetter) June 11, 2020

[tarcone]

Maybe Trump will hire him as his driver.

[cartman]

He's retiring with the same number of wins as the Confederacy

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by rjolley

Does anyone know why some of the police officers are against reform and/or accountability? I've seen some articles that seem to talk about why some are for it, but not much about why they aren't. Has anyone heard anything either from officers or online?

I don't think most people would want more reforms/accountability at their job.

[NobodyHere]

The Detroit Lions have won more playoff games in the SuperBowl era than this guy has NASCAR wins.