Is John Kerry changing parties?

[EagleFan]

Political shipwreck - BostonHerald.com


This would probably get a mention from Obama if it was a Republican doing it...

[Greyroofoo]

Well to be fair,

John Kerry was for buying an American made boat before he was against it.

[jeff061]

John Kerry is a train wreck.

[tarcone]

The more I think about this, the more it really disturbs me. Is he really that out of touch that he blows off his own voters and goes acroos the ocean to get a boat built?
And the man lives in a state that lives off the ocean. Hello? Anyone home?

[Marc Vaughan]

What a crock imho - its his money and should be up to him how he spends it imho, would anyone on this board like someone to come into their house and critique what they spent their money upon?

(heck isn't this meant to be America land of capitalism? - in which case by capitalist virtues he SHOULD purchase items where he gets best value ... thats what capitalism indicates)

Its about time politicians (worldwide) were judged on their political policies and actions rather than innuendo and what they might or might not have done in their personal life.

[stevew]

Hopefully this boat is swift.

[Shkspr]

Are American shipbuilders really so incompetent that they can't compete on price or feature list with a New Zealand company?

[Marc Vaughan]

PS - If that $7m would be enough to support an entire town for six months (as is implied) thats one heck of a small town imho.

Average American income = approx 30k
Six months wages = 15k

Number of people supported by $7m = 465 approx.

Now back home we don't call people with 465 people in them towns, we call them there places villages or hamlets .....

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

What a crock imho - its his money and should be up to him how he spends it imho, would anyone on this board like someone to come into their house and critique what they spent their money upon?

(heck isn't this meant to be America land of capitalism? - in which case by capitalist virtues he SHOULD purchase items where he gets best value ... thats what capitalism indicates)

Its about time politicians (worldwide) were judged on their political policies and actions rather than innuendo and what they might or might not have done in their personal life.

You are correct. It is his money. But with his standing in the community he should be buying American, imho. Plus, if he can afford a $7 million yacht, I imagine another million or 2 to buy American wouldnt be that big a deal.

It seems to me this would be like the governor of Wisconsin, buying cheese made in California.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

What a crock imho - its his money and should be up to him how he spends it imho, would anyone on this board like someone to come into their house and critique what they spent their money upon?

(heck isn't this meant to be America land of capitalism? - in which case by capitalist virtues he SHOULD purchase items where he gets best value ... thats what capitalism indicates)

Its about time politicians (worldwide) were judged on their political policies and actions rather than innuendo and what they might or might not have done in their personal life.

Seriously? This isn't about his groceries. This is about a $7 million dollar boat. A purchase that would have employed a whole town in his home state for a year and a half or more according to the article. It shows a very big disconnect between him and his home. He is saying his home state, the people who elected him and pays his salary, aren't good enough for his own money. That is political death. It would be like a Georgia governor buying $2 million dollars worth of Brazilian peanuts while his home farmers starve. You have evey right to do it. And the voters have every right to kick you to the curb.

[stevew]

I'd probably think this one is more Teresa's fault. For starters, Kerry might be rich, but the only way he even affords a 7m dollar yacht is because of John Heinz.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

PS - If that $7m would be enough to support an entire town for six months (as is implied) thats one heck of a small town imho.

Average American income = approx 30k
Six months wages = 15k

Number of people supported by $7m = 465 approx.

Now back home we don't call people with 465 people in them towns, we call them there places villages or hamlets .....

It is not the literal dollar for dollar. That would have kept say, one factory open for two years. Their money would have went into the local economy (stores, restraunts, etc), and then that same money would have went through the economy again. So, it is not dollar for dollar. That is a substantial amount of money to circulate through a small town.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

What a crock imho - its his money and should be up to him how he spends it imho, would anyone on this board like someone to come into their house and critique what they spent their money upon?

(heck isn't this meant to be America land of capitalism? - in which case by capitalist virtues he SHOULD purchase items where he gets best value ... thats what capitalism indicates)

Its about time politicians (worldwide) were judged on their political policies and actions rather than innuendo and what they might or might not have done in their personal life.

You're right. Who the hell should care about keeping money in the country and keeping Americans working. It's not like he's a politician who should be serviing hs people and doing what is best for them. It's not like we're in a time where jobs are being lost and the economy is in bad shape and is in need ot people buying American.

I am sick and tired of seeing jobs taken out of this country and we need to stand up and make the politicians accountable for allowing it to happen by giving companies incentives to do so. We also need to hold them accountable for their actions when they are counter to what is good for this country.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is not the literal dollar for dollar. That would have kept say, one factory open for two years. Their money would have went into the local economy (stores, restraunts, etc), and then that same money would have went through the economy again. So, it is not dollar for dollar. That is a substantial amount of money to circulate through a small town.

I think your dollar amounts are way off. It's not like that money only goes to suppliers in town or that the owner doesn't keep some profit that gets invested out of town. I'm sure it would have been nice for a local company, but no town is staying alive on the back of a single yacht purchase.

Are we now going to demand every politician only buy from their constituents? It's going to really suck to be a rep in a rural district. And I'm not sure any of them can have a computer.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

You're right. Who the hell should care about keeping money in the country and keeping Americans working. It's not like he's a politician who should be serviing hs people and doing what is best for them. It's not like we're in a time where jobs are being lost and the economy is in bad shape and is in need ot people buying American.

So you never buy a non-American item at all then? - your car is American and all of your appliances?

(sorry but unless you live it yourself I always kinda think its somewhat hypocritical to criticise others - I buy goods which are the best value for the money I've earnt ... are you seriously saying that others shouldn't be allowed to?)

I am sick and tired of seeing jobs taken out of this country and we need to stand up and make the politicians accountable for allowing it to happen by giving companies incentives to do so. We also need to hold them accountable for their actions when they are counter to what is good for this country.

So you think that inflicting artificial trade embargoes (ie. only buying American etc.) would fix this situation? - I take it then you agree with the anti-freetrade actions which China has taken in the past to protect its economy then? (ie. artificial protection of its exchange rate and making it hard to import into that country).

After all thats no different to what you're proposing ? .... just wondering ....

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is not the literal dollar for dollar. That would have kept say, one factory open for two years. Their money would have went into the local economy (stores, restraunts, etc), and then that same money would have went through the economy again. So, it is not dollar for dollar. That is a substantial amount of money to circulate through a small town.

Actually if you look at it that way then its even LESS than it would be as a direct payment to individuals.

The profit from a $7m boat would probably result in a far less investment in the local economy, most likely even in an American boat builder many of the components etc. would be produced aboard, plus the wages going to the builders themselves would be a small fraction of the actual cost of the boat etc.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Actually if you look at it that way then its even LESS than it would be as a direct payment to individuals.

The profit from a $7m boat would probably result in a far less investment in the local economy, most likely even in an American boat builder many of the components etc. would be produced aboard, plus the wages going to the builders themselves would be a small fraction of the actual cost of the boat etc.

And out of those wages a bunch of that money goes out of town. You can argue for a multiplier on money spent in the town, but not on all seven million.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Are American shipbuilders really so incompetent that they can't compete on price or feature list with a New Zealand company?

It's pretty much this simple. I'm going to go ahead and assume a 7M dollar purchase is probably well thought out. He has no obligation as to where he spends his wife's money, however I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and he found that American offerings were inferior.

The docking in another state to avoid taxes is much more questionable than where the boat was built.

[stevew]

dola-

Do Michigan Politicians buy Mercedes Benz's?

[JPhillips]

Can you buy a Toyota if it's made in the U.S.?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Can you buy a Toyota if it's made in the U.S.?

I think you're only allowed to buy something if its made by someone within a 3 mile radius of your house using their own hands or tools created by direct relatives

PS - I'll break it to my wife that we'll be walking a lot more in the near future

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

The docking in another state to avoid taxes is much more questionable than where the boat was built.

Ya, that's what I thought this was going to be about. I didn't realize "buy local" was a liberal, or John Kerry, rallying point. Taxes on the other hand.....

[JonInMiddleGA]

I applaud the sense of fiscal responsibility Kerry appears to have shown here. Only a damned fool would simply spend more than is necessary.& we've got plenty of damned fools in D.C. already.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

You're right. Who the hell should care about keeping money in the country and keeping Americans working. It's not like he's a politician who should be serviing hs people and doing what is best for them. It's not like we're in a time where jobs are being lost and the economy is in bad shape and is in need ot people buying American.

I am sick and tired of seeing jobs taken out of this country and we need to stand up and make the politicians accountable for allowing it to happen by giving companies incentives to do so. We also need to hold them accountable for their actions when they are counter to what is good for this country.

Hey, it's not our fault us 3rd-worlders are willing to work for ten cents to the dollar.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya, that's what I thought this was going to be about. I didn't realize "buy local" was a liberal, or John Kerry, rallying point. Taxes on the other hand.....

And how many tax dollars are lost on the purchase? That hurts the local, county, state.

I understand the whole "Its his money....". But his states economy is based on ships and boats and fishing, etc. Why go out and buy foreign?

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by tarcone

And how many tax dollars are lost on the purchase? That hurts the local, county, state.

I understand the whole "Its his money....". But his states economy is based on ships and boats and fishing, etc. Why go out and buy foreign?

Because apparently American companies are less concerned with providing superior quality, cost, and service than they are with relying on the braying of jackasses to shame us into buying shoddy inferior product?

(Hey, being Jon is fun!)

[molson]

Originally Posted by tarcone

And how many tax dollars are lost on the purchase? That hurts the local, county, state.

I understand the whole "Its his money....". But his states economy is based on ships and boats and fishing, etc. Why go out and buy foreign?

Because it's cheaper? If he hasn't lectured people, during campaigns or otherwise, about how they should "buy local", then I don't see how anyone can have a problem with him saving some cash. There's a lot of pros and cons to that argument anyway, whether buying local is really the best thing for anyone, if all you're doing is artificially contributing to a failing market.

I don't really have a problem with the tax dodging either, except that he now can't really argue with a straight face that MA taxes aren't too high....He's making a pretty good argument, through his actions, how higher taxes can hurt public revenue.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Because it's cheaper? If he hasn't lectured people, during campaigns or otherwise, about how they should "buy local", then I don't see how anyone can have a problem with him saving some cash. There's a lot of pros and cons to that argument anyway, whether buying local is really the best thing for anyone, if all you're doing is artificially contributing to a failing market.

I don't really have a problem with the tax dodging either, except that he now can't really argue with a straight face that MA taxes aren't too high....

This.

[larrymcg421]

Love the random Obama dig. Does he have a history of criticizing individual purchases made by Republicans?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Actually, Massachusetts ranks 23rd when it comes to tax burden, under such socialist hellholes such as Nebraska, North Carolina, and Utah.

The Tax Foundation - State and Local Tax Burdens: All States, One Year, 1977-2008

Obviously, Kerry thinks they're too high (at least the taxes that target rich people).

But what's your point? You think the states with the lowest taxes are evil, right?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

It's called giving reference. I'm sure you believe MA's taxes are too high, I'm simply giving information then compared to the rest of the US, it's state and local taxes are damn right near in the middle.

You think everyone's taxes are too low, so I'm just wondering your angle here.

I have no idea what MA's taxes are, except for they're way too high for John Kerry to keep his yacht there.

It's just funny to see a liberal, who generally think that the rich need to be taxed more, run and hide to avoid the tax, and then be defended by liberals.

[Dutch]

Prophetic?

He would have been better off with the yacht. But he probably would have chose a foreign-made one.
Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at July 25, 2004 5:43 PM

Doesn't Everyone in Detroit Drive A Rolls? @ AMERICAN DIGEST

[Izulde]

FWIW, what -really- ticked me off was the answer his state director gave that didn't answer the damned question at all. If he had said NZ has some sort of competitive advantage in boat building over Americans that made the purchase better, then yeah okay, fine, I can see it, although he'd better be ready for some significant political backlash that may or may not prove career-damaging.

But to completely duck the question and provide no rationale for why he chose NZ over America is just stupid to me. Yeah I know it wasn't Kerry himself who said it, but he should have either said something himself or controlled his staff better if that's not the response he wanted to get out.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, I'm not sure where this idea that liberals love sales taxes is coming from. It's conservatives that would love to have an overall sales tax to replace the income tax.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yeah, I'm not sure where this idea that liberals love sales taxes is coming from.

Way to show up the party late. John Kerry already let the cat out of the bag.

[Dutch]

hehe, you've been equating Glenn Beck to all conservatives for years now, so what else is new?

[larrymcg421]

I'd also suggest that assuming all liberals love Kerry is a serious mistake. I was a big Deaniac and thus never liked Kerry at all. I argued pretty strongly against him in 04, knew that the "he'll win because he was a veteran" was idiotic. He's done nothing since to change my mind. Hell, his idiocy probably cost the Dems some seats in 2006, where he made comments that made it sound like he was calling troops idiots. So go ahead and bash him.

[Dutch]

I've no doubt that the liberals jumped off his bandwagon the second they realized they didn't have to hold their noses for him any longer.

In other news, just 15 minutes apart you paint your picture with a broad stroke and then warn what a serious mistake it would be to paint pictures with broad strokes.

I'd also suggest that assuming all liberals love Kerry is a serious mistake.

Yeah, I'm not sure where this idea that liberals love sales taxes is coming from. It's conservatives that would love to have an overall sales tax to replace the income tax.

[tarcone]

ALL U.S. Boat makers make terrible products? If thats true, this country is a lot worse shape then I had thought.

And im not braying like a jackass. Public perception is infinitely more important to a politician then a couple mil.

[terpkristin]

I consider myself fairly "in the know" about sailboat makers, given that I've helped my dad go through the the process of buying 2 sailboats (neither as high end or as large as the one Kerry bought--our latest is 37 feet long) and follow sailing in general, and I'll be damned if I can think of an American sailboat company I'd like to buy a boat from.

One particular quote that just confounds me (emphasis mine): "Steve Capozzola, media director for the Alliance for American Manufacturing, was surprised at Kerry’s move. House Democrats are pushing legislation to boost American manufacturing jobs.

“It’s ironic that he’d be buying a foreign-made boat when the House Democrats are considering a number of measures to revitalize American manufacturing,” he said."

Um. This type of thing isn't something most people buy. It's not a commodity-item as it were that everybody is rushing out to get. Hell, more people buy motor (no sail) boats than do sailboats. I really can't believe that one purchase (even at 7 million dollars) is going to revitalize American shipbuilding or any of the rest of the manufacturing market.

But all said, I think it's pretty squirrelly of him to keep it in Rhode Island, knowing his state can probably use the tax revenue. Never having sailed up there, I can't speak for how easy it is to access Nantucket (where it's said he sails) from Rhode Island as opposed to any of the Massachusetts ports, but still seems kind of evasive.

/tk

[Noop]

Enjoying this one.

[terpkristin]

Dola,
I also find it kind of disgusting (but sadly unsurprising) that the official owner of the boat is the LLC which I'm guessing was formed to be a tax dodge/shelter.

More on the boat, Friendship has been around for quite awhile and makes great boats. Apparently the interior was designed by a Rhode Island boat designer, for which I'm sure he was paid a pretty penny.

/tk

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I've no doubt that the liberals jumped off his bandwagon the second they realized they didn't have to hold their noses for him any longer.

In other news, just 15 minutes apart you paint your picture with a broad stroke and then warn what a serious mistake it would be to paint pictures with broad strokes.

I wasn't talking about making generalizations. I was suggesting that the generalization was faulty. A national sales tax is a conservative idea, not a liberal one. John Kerry got the nomination on the strength of moderates, not liberals. Paint all the strokes you want. You were just using the wrong color.

[Abe Sargent]

Why should his dollar care more about making Americans work than New Zealanders?

[Saul Goode]

I don't understand the big deal. This is a capitalist society. It's a lot of money, but just wait for the good ol' boy tax cuts to expire. Can't wait for their 360 on fiscal responsibility.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I don't understand the big deal. This is a capitalist society. It's a lot of money, but just wait for the good ol' boy tax cuts to expire. Can't wait for their 360 on fiscal responsibility.

Why? Then they'd be right back where they started.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Are American shipbuilders really so incompetent that they can't compete on price or feature list with a New Zealand company?

yes

[Noop]

I once was told that people use to think American made products were top of the line. Then something happened that rendered American made products as inferior to their foreign counterparts. Besides entertainment I can not think of something that America makes that completely shits all over the other countries.

Ipod maybe?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Noop

I once was told that people use to think American made products were top of the line. Then something happened that rendered American made products as inferior to their foreign counterparts. Besides entertainment I can not think of something that America makes that completely shits all over the other countries.

Ipod maybe?

Ipods aren't American made. American developed, but not American made.

[ISiddiqui]

People who are piling on Kerry are funny. People tend to like capitalism until someone in another country can make a better product cheaper than you can. Basically, good job Kerry.