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Old 06-11-2020, 02:41 AM   #1
LastWhiteSoxFanStanding
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FOF AND OOTP PART WAYS

Important Announcement - OOTP Developments Forums

Hi everyone!

After a lot of thought and discussion with all parties involved, weíve made the difficult decision to shelve the Front Office Football project as a part of the overall Out of the Park Developments product offering.

In full transparency, OOTP Developments has changed a lot since we first got together with Jim. The user bases for Out of the Park Baseball and Franchise Hockey Manager have increased dramatically, as has the need to support those titles. Our development roadmap is significant, including major additions to both gamesí single player components and live services. We are also investing heavily in our mobile app OOTP Go. Our development resources are already maxed out and will be for many months based on all the roadmap items we have.

Simply put, we wonít be able to allocate the resources we need to deliver the Front Office Football product up to the standards that our fans expect and deserve for a long time, so weíve chosen to go in a different direction. Jim Gindin is and will always remain a good friend, and we expect that whatever he decides to do next with his franchise will be extraordinary, and we will support him the best we can. We gave him full ownership to the current FOF9 code and wish him all the best moving forward.

Thank you as always for all of your support.
Markus & the entire OOTP Developments team

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Old 06-11-2020, 02:42 AM   #2
LastWhiteSoxFanStanding
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Thank god.

Lost a lot of respect for OOTP on how they handled this
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Old 06-11-2020, 02:58 AM   #3
LastWhiteSoxFanStanding
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And as someone who bought every version of FOF including the board game, whenever FOF releases, it is a day one buy from me.Now more than ever, I really appreciate the effort Jim puts into each release. Deepening and enriching the experience with new features that matter.OOTP and many other sports games have trotted out the same basic franchise mode for the past several years now. So I hope Jim isn't disheartened. Know you have a loyal and rabid fanbase who is ready to buy day 1 whenever you release!

Last edited by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding : 06-11-2020 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:00 AM   #4
Markus Heinsohn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding View Post
Thank god.

Lost a lot of respect for OOTP on how they handled this

Well, you do not know the details. Trust me, we handled it as good as we could, but in the end it did not work out, unfortunately. We would have loved to have a football game in our lineup that has the potential of the quality of OOTP & FHM, and we and Jim invested a lot of money and work hours, but it wasn't meant to be.

We wish Jim all the best and will be helping him as good as we can in the future with his project, of course.

Last edited by Markus Heinsohn : 06-11-2020 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:28 AM   #5
JonInMiddleGA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding View Post
Thank god.

If I were still into a pro football sim I'd probably echo this more heartily.

Quote:
Lost a lot of respect for OOTP on how they handled this

I didn't really have much to lose in the first place, so I can't quite ditto you on this. But I understand the sentiment.
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:25 AM   #6
Izulde
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Translation:

"FOF was never all that high on our priority list. Rather than expand our resources to support and bring this product to market, we've opted to just keep our current resources level and stick with our first-party properties instead. We hope you look forward to our forthcoming mobile game that will be chock full of IAP to give us truckloads of cash!"

Yeah, this was clumsily handled. I think the last OOTP I bought was 18 - my first since 8. This pretty much guarantees I'll never purchase another OOTP Dev product again.
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Old 06-11-2020, 05:10 AM   #7
jbergey22
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Wow!

Just to support "Perfect Team" which was fun for about 3 weeks before it was dumb because you just kept picking the same cards and the best teams had the same players.

The sooner Perfect Team goes away the better. Before long we will just get an EA Sports update to the real game.

Not cool at all OOTP.

Last edited by jbergey22 : 06-11-2020 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 05:26 AM   #8
jbergey22
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post

We wish Jim all the best and will be helping him as good as we can in the future with his project, of course.

He probably wasted 2-3 years for you already. All you can probably help with is stalling his next project.
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Old 06-11-2020, 06:10 AM   #9
spleen1015
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There is no way to spin this where it doesn't look bad for Markus & Co.

Good luck Jim.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:01 AM   #10
NobodyHere
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I'm not going to pretend I know enough to assign blame. I don't really care about assigning blame.

But I will assume there's long story worthy enough of a HBO series, full of hot extra-marital affairs, betrayals, coke-fueled crime sprees, prostitutes galore, and and least horse-head found under the bed-sheets.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:37 AM   #11
albionmoonlight
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I, too, am not privy to any information that would let me assign blame.

But this is very disappointing.

This was a really good and logical partnership, and the fact that it didn't work really sucks.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:45 AM   #12
Edward64
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Very sad to hear.

Jim, I have to believe this is very disappointing to you. Hope you are okay.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:47 AM   #13
PilotMan
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Well that royally sucks.

Is this the part where we welcome him back home with open arms? I hope so.

At least give us those stories that Nobody was talking about.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:49 AM   #14
QuikSand
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Hope that this turns out positively for both parties, going forward.

I have gotten so, so much from the FOF franchise, and have also generally enjoyed my dabbles into OOTP. I want the text sim sports genre to thrive - hope both remain a part of that happening.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:51 AM   #15
Ben E Lou
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Extremely disappointing.

I posted this months ago in a thread about a "perfect team" concept for FOF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
...my overriding presupposition here is that even if there are "no paying $$$ for points" leagues, plus traditional SP and MP, the development focus would end up being on the "pay for points" leagues if/when it becomes clear that they're the revenue machine in the whole equation. Why bother with tightening up contract algorithms or staff acquisition in traditional SP or MP if the real money to be made is in adding new bells and whistles to the pay-to-win game?

Can't help but think it's what's happening here. Deck-building pay-$$$-to-win games are likely much better revenue producers than the $35 per year model (or every 2-3 yrs in the case of FOF,) and could mean the stagnation of traditional draft/FA/trade GM play. Here's hoping that Jim will keep it old school, but this is likely the right financial decision for OOTP, and probably long-term for Jim to go in the same direction.

Ugh.
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Last edited by Ben E Lou : 06-11-2020 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:54 AM   #16
MizzouRah
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Originally Posted by albionmoonlight View Post
I, too, am not privy to any information that would let me assign blame.

But this is very disappointing.

This was a really good and logical partnership, and the fact that it didn't work really sucks.


No need to assign blame. I fully agree though, it sucks. I was really looking forward to FOF 9 with the layout of OOTP.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:55 AM   #17
MizzouRah
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Hope that this turns out positively for both parties, going forward.

I have gotten so, so much from the FOF franchise, and have also generally enjoyed my dabbles into OOTP. I want the text sim sports genre to thrive - hope both remain a part of that happening.


Well said....
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:09 AM   #18
Jops
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Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
Extremely disappointing.

I posted this months ago in a thread about a "perfect team" concept for FOF.

Can't help but think it's what's happening here. Deck-building pay-$$$-to-win games are likely much better revenue producers than the $35 per year model (or every 2-3 yrs in the case of FOF,) and could mean the stagnation of traditional draft/FA/trade GM play. Here's hoping that Jim will keep it old school, but this is likely the right financial decision for OOTP, and probably long-term for Jim to go in the same direction.

Ugh.

Completely agree with this, same way thay games like FIFA/Madden are going where the game is just a cash cow but ends up crap as issues are never fixed. Disappointing and I hope it hasnít impacted Jim too much and will still be hopping straight on the FOF9 bandwagon once itís out.

Iíve been playing OOTP17 and getting more into it, not sure Iíll bother with another OOTP either now.

Keep grinding Jim!
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:16 AM   #19
weegeebored
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Refresh my memory -- the reasons for Jim to partner with OOTP were: to use OOTP's resources to create a better UI, and to sell more copies of FOF because it would have the OOTP brand? Isn't football more popular than both baseball and hockey? There's got to be some kind a weird backstory because it doesn't make business sense to not have a football game in a sport sim company's product line, especially one with the sim engine already completed. I'm not sure that Jim needs OOTP if he can modernize the UI (hire a UX person for the design?) and sell through Steam and other online services.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:17 AM   #20
Ben E Lou
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Originally Posted by Jops View Post
Completely agree with this, same way thay games like FIFA/Madden are going where the game is just a cash cow but ends up crap as issues are never fixed. Disappointing and I hope it hasn’t impacted Jim too much and will still be hopping straight on the FOF9 bandwagon once it’s out.

I’ve been playing OOTP17 and getting more into it, not sure I’ll bother with another OOTP either now.

Keep grinding Jim!
To be clear, if my guess is correct, I can't blame game companies one iota for focusing on the recurring revenue model. It's just not a play style that holds any interest at all for me, though.
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Last edited by Ben E Lou : 06-11-2020 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:20 AM   #21
spleen1015
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Can't fault anyone for focusing on the part of your business that makes you money. That's why you're in the business to start with.

You can see fault when they make a commitment to someone and their product then back out of that commitment because the other part of their business is taking their focus.

You made a commitment. Follow through on it.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:26 AM   #22
jbergey22
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Meh,

People that play perfect team dont really care about accuracy so that part of the business should pretty much run itself after awhile. I have no idea why so many resources are being put into the "arcade" version of OOTP.

Its not even close to a simulation at this point and I doubt it ever will be. Its paying for cards and collecting cards and using the engine designed for modern day baseball to play out seasons quickly. The old timer cards usually end up hurting your chances of winning because their defense is mostly bad.

This stuff is getting overlooked these days.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...=317272&page=3

Last edited by jbergey22 : 06-11-2020 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:30 AM   #23
LastWhiteSoxFanStanding
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Remember what OOTP looked like before the partnership with SI?

Didn't look so great.

There was a massive leap between in graphics between OOTP 6 and 2007.

SI helped OOTP with time, money, resources, people etc to give the game a modern look that it is still using today. Without it, OOTP would not be nearly as successful.

You would think Markus would remember that and extend the same courtesy and commitment to Jim
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:38 AM   #24
sovereignstar v2
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BEN EDIT: I get that people are frustrated, but this was over the top.

Last edited by Ben E Lou : 06-11-2020 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:48 AM   #25
molson
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Jim had posted a while ago over there about he was the only one working on FOF9, which kind of defeated much of the purpose of the partnership. You could read between the lines that they abandoned him long ago.

The posters on the FOF forum there (which has now been shut down of course), saw this coming a month or two ago. Long before that, OOTP didn't communicate much about FOF and tended to be abrasive towards posters who wanted to talk about it.

What a clown show. Hope Jim emerges somewhere better.

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Old 06-11-2020, 08:51 AM   #26
Alf
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Looks like what EA did to Solecismic software after FOF2k1
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:58 AM   #27
Squirrel
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Hard to really know what to think about this.

I've never played OOTP, it looks like a good game in the pictures. The combination had the chance to be really great.

All I know is that the next time Jim puts something out that gives me a chance to pay him some $ I will do it gratefully and with pleasure.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:01 AM   #28
Flasch186
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I feel like OOTP made this decision a long time ago and dragged it out so long that it now makes OOTP look abusive.

I'll never buy another OOTP game. FOF is day 1 every time for everything except his card game (sorry Jim).
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:04 AM   #29
redfox000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Izulde View Post
Translation:

"FOF was never all that high on our priority list. Rather than expand our resources to support and bring this product to market, we've opted to just keep our current resources level and stick with our first-party properties instead. We hope you look forward to our forthcoming mobile game that will be chock full of IAP to give us truckloads of cash!"

Yeah, this was clumsily handled. I think the last OOTP I bought was 18 - my first since 8. This pretty much guarantees I'll never purchase another OOTP Dev product again.

This EXACTLY! A football sim would make so much more $$ than a baseball sim, based simply on the fact it is a more popular sport.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:16 AM   #30
ezlee2
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So happy to hear this. I for one would pay $50 or more for this game. When you add the countless hours and enjoyment it has given me over the year it's a small price to pay.

I'm also down starting or supporting a Kickstarter to support and updated GUI.

I have nothing against the OOTP folks, other than they were the bottleneck to get this off the ground.

Here is hoping that we get FOF9 by the fall/new season of play.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:18 AM   #31
Hammer
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This is GREAT news as far as I am concerned. FOF was never about fancy graphics it is about quality content and an accurate football sim. I was always concerned what we would end up with, due to the outside influence. Can't wait for the next edition of FOF now!!!

Would be great to see what we already have polished up Jim. Injuries to be made more accurate and RL, adjustments to the height and weight effect, let punishing hitter actually be meaningful, give us more options to control our defense, bring player personality more in to the game.

Anything we can do to promote your game, just ask. You have a loyal fan base and we will do all we can to push the game.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:22 AM   #32
Edward64
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I'm also down starting or supporting a Kickstarter to support and updated GUI.

Me too.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:26 AM   #33
miked
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I also have not bought any recent OOTP titles, despite being on previous betas. Perfect team seemed so stupid and nothing I would waste my money on. It seems all OOTP did was stall the game significantly while contributing no resources to development. I'm sure Jim will come on here and say how great it was for everyone and he learned so much, but he is just very nice and this was pretty crappy of OOTP.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:44 AM   #34
tzach
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it seems a big plus moving fwd that jim got the full code ownership, for which the base now is similar to Franchise Hockey Manager according to marcus' ootp post. this has to be a positive from this partnership.

i have no idea how long it takes to put an UI on top of a video game base code, but anything is possible

Last edited by tzach : 06-11-2020 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:50 AM   #35
tzach
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(can this thread be moved to FOF/TCY discussion? i don't think it's off topic hehe)
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Old 06-11-2020, 09:50 AM   #36
Thomkal
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Bummer. Sorry to hear that you have had another problem with a partnership Jim. Hope it works out for you in the end and you can put out a new game sometime soon.
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:12 AM   #37
Jops
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
To be clear, if my guess is correct, I can't blame game companies one iota for focusing on the recurring revenue model. It's just not a play style that holds any interest at all for me, though.

Yeah I get that and agree, itís just same for me. I find those other games frustrating now because the bits I like havenít changed

Like others have said this seems like itís been coming for a while, just disappointing and hope itís not set FOF9 any further back
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:14 AM   #38
Kodos
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Wow. Sorry this partnership didn't work out Jim. You have a loyal base here that will support a new game.
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Old 06-11-2020, 11:07 AM   #39
stevew
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Sweet. Glad I don’t have to go to that cesspool forum.
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Old 06-11-2020, 11:35 AM   #40
RedKingGold
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Somewhat relieved if this means FOF wonít be tainted by Perfect Team options. Happy to plop down cash whenever the new FOF comes out.
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Old 06-11-2020, 11:57 AM   #41
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..
Jeff answer my emails!

#PittsburghPower4eva
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Old 06-11-2020, 12:16 PM   #42
AlexB
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Absolute shambles on the face of it from OOTP, from Jim’s occasional posts I think he knew the writing was on the wall for a long time.

Hopefully it is pretty much a case of getting a GUI guy in to overlay the code?

I, as would many I fancy, would be happy to pay in advance via a Kickstarter or similar if that helps get the game finished?
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Old 06-11-2020, 12:25 PM   #43
NawlinsFan
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I don't think this is too much of a surprise to most, still it is unfortunate. Question now is the state of FOF9 and what can Jim do with what he has. Problem may be that he altered the code enough to fit an OOTP scheme that he can't quickly reconfigure it without lot's of work, and time. Behind the scenes he may have seen the writing on the wall and started working an alternate path, one can hope. Still, without a doubt, he will be trying to get over this emotional roller coaster ride and hopefully will have the energy to realign himself and work the next phase of FOF for the community.

Initially, it would require a lot of work, but I would be interested in some form of integration of the BELCO data display system that could be supported both in an SP and MP configuration. With it possibly having some additional tweaks to the GUI but I think first and foremost using what exists now to better provide GM feedback would push it forward and get the hungry community fed. An upper end GUI design could be planned as a future upgrade that I think most would appreciate but then again, many just see it as a text/data driven game and the GUI is not all that important. I think there is an option today (not sure how easily it could be incorporated, or even if Ben would allow it) to at least consider and get started with.
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Old 06-11-2020, 12:45 PM   #44
Young Drachma
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Disappointed, but the writing probably had been on the wall for a while. Hoping that Jim is able to get a game together sometime, I'll be delighted to play it whenever it drops. Feel the same way about FBCB, even though this isn't the thread for that. These indie developers have given me a lot more than I've given them over the years, and I know it can be a thankless gig.
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:24 PM   #45
tzach
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yep, a lot of stuff can be done in html5/css/php these days. especially if data can be not only be exported out of fof but also imported into fof. i'd be over the moon if i could import game plans/playbooks/depth charts in csv format into fof.
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:33 PM   #46
HeadOpener
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Sounds like Jim needs a kickstarter and to hire a UI dev for the pretties and the rest was not ffar off done from his previous updates.
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Old 06-11-2020, 02:54 PM   #47
Noop
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I wish he releases TCY 2.
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:33 PM   #48
PilotMan
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Originally Posted by Noop View Post
I wish he releases TCY 2.

You and me both man.
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Old 06-11-2020, 03:52 PM   #49
Vegas Vic
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I think this might turn out well in the long run. FOF is not an arcade game (neither is OOTP for that matter). All that is needed is a 21st century GUI to enhance the game and make it more immersive (with Facegen, etc.), and hopefully Jim can now move forward and eventually get the game released.
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:08 PM   #50
molson
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Jim updated his blog:

Jim Gindin – Football Frontier
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