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View Poll Results: Who is the greatest NBA player of all time?
Lebron James 28 32.94%
Michael Jordan 54 63.53%
Other (Specify in thread) 3 3.53%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-26-2017, 12:59 PM   #1
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Lebron vs. Jordan (The Poll!)(2017 edition)

Companion to the other thread.
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Old 05-26-2017, 01:17 PM   #2
korme
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This should be labeled 2017 so we can come back to this in 10 years, with a new poll.
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Old 05-26-2017, 01:17 PM   #3
korme
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Because I cannot vote for this today.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:26 PM   #4
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I've got Jordan right now, but it's close. What LeBron has done in the playoffs the last couple of years is incredible. He could very possibly overtake His Airness, but he's not there yet.
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Old 05-26-2017, 04:39 PM   #5
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What's crazy to me is you could get a player better than both because neither were/are great at taking 3's. Maybe someone like Durant could get there but he's missing the playmaking and defensive intensity components.
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Old 05-26-2017, 06:38 PM   #6
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I can't extract entirely that Jordan made NBA basketball a globally popular phenomenon like no one before or since. To this day, Jordans are still some of the most popular shoes and he's been retired how long?

LeBron doesn't have that type of economic or brand impact IMO
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Old 05-26-2017, 06:51 PM   #7
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For me, LeBron has taken the crown when you take into account everything he does at an elite level.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:22 PM   #8
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Michael Jordan was in Space Jam and Lebron wasn't.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:24 PM   #9
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Jordan in the finals = title.

James in the finals = coin flip.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:59 PM   #10
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I hate them both, so I say Magic.
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:13 PM   #11
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Michael Jordan was in Space Jam and Lebron wasn't.

Prepare to be disappointed..
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:34 PM   #12
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Kareem.
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:31 AM   #13
korme
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LeBron doesn't have that type of economic or brand impact IMO

From my basic understanding this poll is an on the court opinion.
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:32 AM   #14
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Jordan in the finals = title.

James in the finals = coin flip.

Jordan 5 time favorite heading into Finals, Lebron has been an underdog 5/7 years. That matters.
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:33 AM   #15
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Kareem.

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Old 05-27-2017, 10:04 AM   #16
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The way I described it to my buddy earlier.

As of right now, if you tell me that Lebron is better than Jordan, I tell you that you're wrong.

If he beats the Warriors this year, and you tell me Lebron is better than Jordan, I tell you that I disagree.
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Old 05-27-2017, 10:12 AM   #17
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Jordan in the finals = title.

James in the finals = coin flip.

Yep. But.
There were many years there where Jordan couldnt get past the Cavs and then the Pistons. Lebron got to the finals before he could win it, unlike Jordan
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Old 05-27-2017, 10:17 AM   #18
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For me it comes down to the watered down 90s. His finals opponents were not the same teams as modern Spurs or Warriors. LeBron has certainly benefited from a watered down East Conference since the big 3 left Boston, but overall the league has more competition than it did in the 90s.

Maybe it was because I grew up in the 80s, but I always considered Magic and Bird better players where as Jordan was the most superior athlete. LeBron is a mix of both.
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Old 05-27-2017, 10:37 AM   #19
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The way I described it to my buddy earlier.

As of right now, if you tell me that Lebron is better than Jordan, I tell you that you're wrong.

If he beats the Warriors this year, and you tell me Lebron is better than Jordan, I tell you that I disagree.

I like this perspective.
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:45 PM   #20
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LeBron has had the impact that someone like Ewing or Shaq should have had. He is literally the one guy that if your team has him, you will likely make the finals every year. This is his 7th straight trip to the finals.

The Decision, while handled poorly, was exactly the type of move he should have made. Returning to Cleveland was honestly a really horrible idea at the time. But he almost won the first series with Matthew Dellevedova as his second best teammate.

But we can't really compare basketball players like they are prize fighters.

Instead of asking who is the greatest, you'd have to break that down into several categories. Who has accomplished more(Jordan)? If you had a good team, who would be more likely to put you over the top(probably LeBron).

Anyways, I don't really like Kobe at all but he also makes a very strong case to be included in this conversation.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:05 PM   #21
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Jordan gets a pass for too much stuff. No one wants to talk about the pre-Scottie years when they went 1-9 in the first round. No one seems to remember he didn't make an ECF until expansion watered down the east in 88 with Charlotte and Miami and 89 with Orlando.

I don't care if Jordan made the playoffs those first few years when they went 38-44, 30-52 and 40-42 while making the playoffs. Jordan making the playoff is seen as some accomplishment those first few years.

It ultimately comes down to what people think of in the best player. Jordan shot the ball a lot. Jordan led the league in shots per season 9 seasons and one season shot it 2279 times (27.8 shots a game). LeBron has never led the league in shots per season with only one season over 1700. LeBron has had 10 season with 500+ assists. Jordan got over 500 twice. James is better from 3 point range while Jordan is better from the line.

If you pick the most memorable play for each, Jordan's will always come on the offense end while IMO James may be the chase down block last on Iggy.
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:43 PM   #22
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Yep. But.
There were many years there where Jordan couldnt get past the Cavs and then the Pistons. Lebron got to the finals before he could win it, unlike Jordan

Relatedly, there is the fact that Jordan's teams were almost always better than their finals opponents. Phoenix is '93 was the only team with a better record, and Utah in '97 had the same mark as the Bulls; the other four times they had more wins. By comparison, LeBron has had an inferior team at least per regular-season wins in 5 of 6 finals, basically the reverse of Jordan. It would be quite surprising if he didn't lose more often. All of the Bulls title teams won at least 57 regular-season games; 50 and 53 for a couple of LeBron teams. Not that the regular season is a perfect indicator or anything but it does tend to be fairly predictive.

538 did an analysis a couple weeks ago which basically pointed out that there are three men who, over the course of their careers, stand ahead of the rest in terms of sustaining or even exceeding regular-season performance in the playoffs, when everyone is more focused, the competition is better, etc. Two are those mentioned in this thread, and the third is Duncan. Jordan was at the top, but not by much -- and that pretty much echoes the way I see it. At this point.
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:01 PM   #23
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I voted other,

Best NBA Player of all time? Bill Russell.

11 Championships, 5 more than Jordan.

Are we done now?
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Old 06-01-2017, 11:14 PM   #24
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I voted other,

Best NBA Player of all time? Bill Russell.

11 Championships, 5 more than Jordan.

Are we done now?

Nah, we ain't. In Russell's 11th and final championship in 1966 the NBA had expanded to a whopping... 9 teams. He was ahead of his time and freak athlete, but that really smashes the argument.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:06 AM   #25
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I don't think the number of teams is that compelling; you can argue that larger leagues merely dilute the talent pool. However, I don't put '# of titles' as a huge marker in determining how good a player was. How they performed, espescially in playoff situations? Absolutely. But I don't blame a guy like Dominique Wilkins, for example, for never winning a title. Never had a team good enough to, and that's not his fault. Doesn't belong in the Jordan/LeBron conversation, but he's definitely a HOF guy.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:23 AM   #26
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Basketball is weird in that Russell doesn't get the Babe Ruth treatment of being ahead of his time.
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:27 AM   #27
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I don't know much about baseball, but I'm assuming it's status in the US in the days of Babe Rith was waaaaaay beyond what basketball's was when Russell was playing.
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Old 06-02-2017, 04:31 AM   #28
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Relatedly, there is the fact that Jordan's teams were almost always better than their finals opponents. Phoenix is '93 was the only team with a better record, and Utah in '97 had the same mark as the Bulls; the other four times they had more wins. By comparison, LeBron has had an inferior team at least per regular-season wins in 5 of 6 finals, basically the reverse of Jordan. It would be quite surprising if he didn't lose more often. All of the Bulls title teams won at least 57 regular-season games; 50 and 53 for a couple of LeBron teams. Not that the regular season is a perfect indicator or anything but it does tend to be fairly predictive.

538 did an analysis a couple weeks ago which basically pointed out that there are three men who, over the course of their careers, stand ahead of the rest in terms of sustaining or even exceeding regular-season performance in the playoffs, when everyone is more focused, the competition is better, etc. Two are those mentioned in this thread, and the third is Duncan. Jordan was at the top, but not by much -- and that pretty much echoes the way I see it. At this point.

They were not better in that last year. Scottie's back was shot by the time the Finals rolled around and Rodman was completely washed up. They probably should have lost to the Pacers if Jordan didn't play out of his mind.

Lebron also lost in the playoffs with more talented teams than his opponent. Did the Bulls ever lose to a team in the playoffs that had less talent than them? The East was really good back in the day.
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Old 06-02-2017, 06:28 AM   #29
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Nah, we ain't. In Russell's 11th and final championship in 1966 the NBA had expanded to a whopping... 9 teams. He was ahead of his time and freak athlete, but that really smashes the argument.

Arguably, the greatest offensive player of all time is Wilt Chamberlain, and Russell's countless victories prevented Chamberlain from getting more titles. Russell also had to deal with racist issues and pushback, and won two more rings as a head coach
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Old 06-02-2017, 07:07 AM   #30
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I voted other,

Best NBA Player of all time? Bill Russell.

11 Championships, 5 more than Jordan.

Are we done now?

Only if you intend to seriously argue that Sam Jones is the second best player in NBA history.

10 Championships, 4 more than Jordan.
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:30 AM   #31
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Only if you intend to seriously argue that Sam Jones is the second best player in NBA history.

10 Championships, 4 more than Jordan.

I think Robert Horry would have to be considered 2nd best of All Time. 7 Championships in the 20+ team era.


Jordan seemingly willed his teams to wins a lot of times. It almost appears the game is too easy for Lebron at times and at certain times he can get lost and the game gets out of hand. On talent alone I think Lebron is the greatest of All Time but Jordans willpower and determination far exceeds Lebron IMO. Interesting discussion.

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Old 06-02-2017, 10:46 AM   #32
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On talent alone I think Lebron is the greatest of All Time but Jordans willpower and determination far exceeds Lebron IMO. Interesting discussion.

This is an interesting point and I agree.

I think it would be interesting also if we could magically do it in some fantasy world to flip flop the times at when Jordan and Lebron played. Not the teams they played against or defenses etc...but the TIME-FRAME and social media garbage.

Would we look at Jordan differently and not under Rose-tinted glasses if he was under the constant scrutiny of social media that Lebron is and knowing every word he utters and every shit he takes?

Would we look at Lebron differently had he been retired now and missed and not under the constant scrutiny that he is today.

Definitely would be interesting to see this poll again in 20 years or even in 10 years when it is Lebron vs 'fill in the blank superstar', when we start to actually miss Lebron.
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:36 AM   #33
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They were not better in that last year. Scottie's back was shot by the time the Finals rolled around and Rodman was completely washed up. They probably should have lost to the Pacers if Jordan didn't play out of his mind.

Can't stress this enough. That team was like the other teams in name only.
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:11 PM   #34
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They were not better in that last year. Scottie's back was shot by the time the Finals rolled around and Rodman was completely washed up. They probably should have lost to the Pacers if Jordan didn't play out of his mind.

Lebron also lost in the playoffs with more talented teams than his opponent. Did the Bulls ever lose to a team in the playoffs that had less talent than them? The East was really good back in the day.

So was Utah with Adam Keefe as the starting center that year. Rodman also lead the league by 200+ rebounds in that year and averaged 11+ in the playoffs per game. That's washed up?!?! 95 and 96 is when he was injured with the Bulls as he played 80 games that final season.
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:16 PM   #35
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Did the Bulls ever lose to a team in the playoffs that had less talent than them? The East was really good back in the day.

First up on the Pacers series, we just obviously see it differently. Pippen had a huge impact there, esp. on defense. Jordan should get credit for the way he played of course, but it is what it is; he had a lot of help as is always the case when two high-quality teams are involved. If you look at LeBron's noteworthy similar series(against the Pistons, losing effort against Howard's Magic, etc.) I don't think you see a much different picture.

As to the question, it's really one that is subjective and you can argue these things either way. As a Bad Boy Pistons fan, I literally don't know anybody who thought we had more talent than Jordan's Bulls when we were beating them in '88, '89, and '90. I think the Bulls were also more talented than Orlando in '95 as would be demonstrated the next season, but I think it's reasonable to give Michael a pass on that based on it being his comeback year. Bottom line is I think these kinds of things can be debated back and forth with no real resolution.

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Old 06-02-2017, 05:27 PM   #36
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So was Utah with Adam Keefe as the starting center that year. Rodman also lead the league by 200+ rebounds in that year and averaged 11+ in the playoffs per game. That's washed up?!?! 95 and 96 is when he was injured with the Bulls as he played 80 games that final season.

His rebound rate was down and his defense worse. He had become an even bigger liability on offense. He was 36 years old and never was a meaningful player in the league after that season.
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:31 PM   #37
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First up on the Pacers series, we just obviously see it differently. Pippen had a huge impact there, esp. on defense. Jordan should get credit for the way he played of course, but it is what it is; he had a lot of help as is always the case when two high-quality teams are involved. If you look at LeBron's noteworthy similar series(against the Pistons, losing effort against Howard's Magic, etc.) I don't think you see a much different picture.

As to the question, it's really one that is subjective and you can argue these things either way. As a Bad Boy Pistons fan, I literally don't know anybody who thought we had more talent than Jordan's Bulls when we were beating them in '88, '89, and '90. I think the Bulls were also more talented than Orlando in '95 as would be demonstrated the next season, but I think it's reasonable to give Michael a pass on that based on it being his comeback year. Bottom line is I think these kinds of things can be debated back and forth with no real resolution.

Cavs had a better team than the Magic that year. You can argue the Magic got hot at the right time but that was a Cavs team that won 66 games (and sat Lebron at the end of the season). I also think the Heat were more talented than the Spurs and Mavs in the Finals.

I also think those Pistons teams were better. They showed it during the regular season. Pippen and Grant really had not fully turned the corner yet. I guess you can argue the 90's team might have been better but that Game 7 was also the migraine game that haunted Pippen's career.

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Old 06-03-2017, 03:02 PM   #38
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His rebound rate was down and his defense worse. He had become an even bigger liability on offense. He was 36 years old and never was a meaningful player in the league after that season.

Thing is, you could never be too much of a liability on offense back then because at the very least you could stand far away from the basket and prevent your guy from helping out on Jordan. This is actually something that doesn't show up in the box score for Rodman: he spent the vast majority of his time on offense either providing "floor spacing" (which is pretty much the best thing you can do when you have a scorer as talented as Jordan on your team already) or flying out of nowhere for an offensive rebound.

Jordan's teammates have been substantially better than LeBron's. The same stats we look at today that show how Draymond Green is one of the top 10 players in the league despite his modest points per game average would have given guys like Rodman, Horace Grant, and even Toni Kukoc pretty convincing All-Star cases during their best years with the Bulls. Pippen would be looked at as a top-5 player at the time rather than a lucky sidekick. The Bulls won 55 games the year Jordan retired; this season the number one most compelling argument for LeBron as MVP was that the Cavs played as poorly when he wasn't on the court as the Thunder did minus Westbrook.

I'd say Jordan was maybe more individually dominant at his peak (while playing under defensive rules that made it easier to be a one-on-one scorer) but LeBron would have to fall off quite rapidly (as in not be considered a top-10 player in the league 2 years from now) for him to not end up slightly better career-wise. Since 2012, every team LeBron has faced in the Finals is much better than any team Jordan ever went up against.

If everyone else on your team can handle their business, Jordan would be your guy, but LeBron's passing and defensive versatility give you the best chance to win if you're overmatched elsewhere.

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Old 06-03-2017, 03:16 PM   #39
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Thing is, you could never be too much of a liability on offense back then because at the very least you could stand far away from the basket and prevent your guy from helping out on Jordan.

Jordan's teammates have been substantially better than LeBron's. The same stats we look at today that show how Draymond Green is one of the top 10 players in the league despite his modest points per game average would have given guys like Rodman, Horace Grant, and even Toni Kukoc pretty convincing All-Star cases during their best years with the Bulls. Pippen would be looked at as a top-5 player at the time rather than a lucky sidekick.

I'd say Jordan was maybe more individually dominant at his peak (while playing under defensive rules that encouraged more one-on-one play) but LeBron would have to fall off quite rapidly (as in not be considered a top-10 player in the league 2 years from now) for him to not end up slightly better career-wise. Since 2012, every team LeBron has faced in the Finals is much better than any team Jordan ever went up against.

If everyone else on your team can handle their business, Jordan would be your guy, but LeBron's passing and defensive versatility give you the best chance to win if you're overmatched elsewhere.

I agree with most of this. From '89 to '94 Horace Grant was a top 15-20 player with a peak year ('91-92) of top 10. From '90 to '97 Pippen was top 5-10. Kukoc came to the NBA late, but he still had a 4 year window of a top 30 or so player. Jordan simply had better help through his peak years than Lebron has.

I never in my life thought I'd see a player better than Jordan, but Lebron as far as total career value will probably surpass him. As you say, Jordan at his peak was probably a bit better, but Lebron is better suited to carry an over-matched team to the finals and give them a shot.

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Old 06-03-2017, 04:20 PM   #40
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This is reading into the tea leaves a bit, but I think LeBron has a goal in mind of playing in the NBA at the same time as his oldest son (who I wouldn't call the 'next LeBron' by any means but from what I've seen is very impressive skillwise for his age and wouldn't even need to grow much taller than 6 feet to be considered a good point guard prospect). That'd be 7-8 years from now at the earliest, and even when factoring in a decline the career numbers will likely just be staggering to the point it'll be tough for people to just fixate on 'Finals record' or whatever.

LeBron could very well be the all-time leading scorer and 3rd in assists when he retires. For perspective, Oscar Robertson at 12th in points and 6th in assists is the only player even close to the top 10 in both categories. Of top scorers, Kobe is 29th in assists, Jordan 43. Of top assisters, Stockton is 44th in points and Isiah is 53rd.

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Old 06-03-2017, 04:41 PM   #41
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Here is why I think MJ is better.

One play in game one of the finals sums it up for me and why Lebron will never be considered better.

Lebron drove to the hoop. He was at the basket. Within 3 feet. Instead of taking it to the hole, like MJ would, he passes it out to a guy at the 3 point line. And ends up passing it to a Warrior. Fast break the other way.
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Old 06-03-2017, 05:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by nol View Post
Thing is, you could never be too much of a liability on offense back then because at the very least you could stand far away from the basket and prevent your guy from helping out on Jordan. This is actually something that doesn't show up in the box score for Rodman: he spent the vast majority of his time on offense either providing "floor spacing" (which is pretty much the best thing you can do when you have a scorer as talented as Jordan on your team already) or flying out of nowhere for an offensive rebound.

Jordan's teammates have been substantially better than LeBron's. The same stats we look at today that show how Draymond Green is one of the top 10 players in the league despite his modest points per game average would have given guys like Rodman, Horace Grant, and even Toni Kukoc pretty convincing All-Star cases during their best years with the Bulls. Pippen would be looked at as a top-5 player at the time rather than a lucky sidekick. The Bulls won 55 games the year Jordan retired; this season the number one most compelling argument for LeBron as MVP was that the Cavs played as poorly when he wasn't on the court as the Thunder did minus Westbrook.

I'd say Jordan was maybe more individually dominant at his peak (while playing under defensive rules that made it easier to be a one-on-one scorer) but LeBron would have to fall off quite rapidly (as in not be considered a top-10 player in the league 2 years from now) for him to not end up slightly better career-wise. Since 2012, every team LeBron has faced in the Finals is much better than any team Jordan ever went up against.

If everyone else on your team can handle their business, Jordan would be your guy, but LeBron's passing and defensive versatility give you the best chance to win if you're overmatched elsewhere.

Rodman was providing no spacing. He played on either side of the paint on the baseline. The team statistically played better on the offensive side of the court with him off it. He had a negative OBPM every year he played in Chicago. You can compare Lebron and Rodman on the defensive end. But Draymond is a plus offensive player and Rodman was not.

Lebron played with two other Hall of Famers in their prime. Jordan never had a third option as good as Chris Bosh. You can argue the Bulls fit together better, but pure talent you can't. I also don't think Kukoc was an All-Star caliber player. Nice role player but we saw what happened when he had to be a #1 option.

The Warriors are definitely better than anyone Jordan played in the Finals but you're really undervaluing those Jazz teams. The 96-97 team was really good and beat some great teams in the West. Plus I'd argue the East was much harder in Jordan's era than it is today.
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Old 06-03-2017, 05:28 PM   #43
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And I'd disagree on the rules benefiting Jordan. While newer defenses are tougher, hand-checking was a huge benefit to defenders. Also stars did not get the foul calls that they do today. Jordan would be going to the line 15+ times a game under today's rules.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:22 PM   #44
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Rules? You mean the Jordan rules? Where the Pistons literally beat the shit out of him?

The stuff MJ went through would see half the Pistons suspended today.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
Rodman was providing no spacing. He played on either side of the paint on the baseline. The team statistically played better on the offensive side of the court with him off it. He had a negative OBPM every year he played in Chicago.

What I'm referring to is that helping too much off of Rodman would have been a technical foul. A player with Rodman's offensive ability today would be much more negative to the point of being unplayable in a playoff series whereas with those rules he was alright (you say the team did slightly better without him, but they were still the best offensive team in the league with him in - OBPM is pretty basic when it comes to describing a player with as unique a skillset as Rodman). You see Cleveland trying to attack this problem the other way and failing against the Warriors because Kevin Love isn't nearly as good offensively as Rodman was defensively and is a slight negative on defense to boot.

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Lebron played with two other Hall of Famers in their prime. Jordan never had a third option as good as Chris Bosh. You can argue the Bulls fit together better, but pure talent you can't.

Saying Wade was in his prime is a joke. He was equally as good as Pippen the first year LeBron was in Miami (unfortunately whoever the team's 4th-best player was then would probably fail to make a list of the 150 best players in the league, which makes the whole 'talent' argument quite spurious if you believe basketball isn't 3-on-3), and then fell off a cliff after that.

Other than that, your main argument here is that top 10-20 player Chris Bosh put up big numbers on a mediocre team previously in his career before joining LeBron as a free agent whereas top 10-20 player Horace Grant was drafted by the Bulls (with a top-10 pick, mind you. The last/only time LeBron played on a team bad enough to get such a high pick, he was younger than Jordan was as a rookie). Don't see a reason to penalize LeBron because his team couldn't find other good players.

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I also don't think Kukoc was an All-Star caliber player. Nice role player but we saw what happened when he had to be a #1 option.

LOL you're talking about a guy who was a 6th man! What do you think would happen if JR Smith (and there's a huge drop-off from him to whoever the Cavs' 6th-best player would be) had to be a #1 option? I could go farther down the line where guys like Ron Harper and BJ Armstrong were well above-average players and guys like Norris Cole and old man Mike Bibby were D-league level.

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The Warriors are definitely better than anyone Jordan played in the Finals but you're really undervaluing those Jazz teams. The 96-97 team was really good and beat some great teams in the West. Plus I'd argue the East was much harder in Jordan's era than it is today.

The Spurs teams are much better as well considering they won just as many regular-season games as the West teams Jordan faced even when liberally resting players. Check the stats 'prime Hall of Famers' Wade and Bosh had in the finals those years.

The East being stronger argument doesn't have much to go on other than that LeBron has more viscerally destroyed opponents in the playoffs to the point that people consider those teams garbage after the fact - teams like the Bulls, Pacers, and Hawks in recent years wouldn't have won as many games as they did without playing well against powerhouse teams from the West. Seems counterintuitive that LeBron would be better in some peoples' eyes for performing slightly worse in the playoffs and letting the other team win a few more games. I just looked up a random championship year and in 1993, the Bulls went down 0-2 to the Knicks. In those 2 games Jordan shot 10-27 and 12-32. In the 12-32 game he had 1 assist and 3 turnovers, and the Knicks' 3 perimeter players all had good games offensively. People have really selective memory when it comes to things like that and how almost every year there are some teams in the East that look good during the regular season and are thought to be likely to knock off the Heat/Cavs.

The two years Jordan retired, the champion came from the West. Hell, in '94-95 the 6 seed from the West swept the 1 seed from the East. The Cavs (with Irving and Love injured) put up a better fight against the Warriors than any West team did 2015 and literally only need to win 1 Finals game for the same to be said about them this season.

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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
And I'd disagree on the rules benefiting Jordan. While newer defenses are tougher, hand-checking was a huge benefit to defenders. Also stars did not get the foul calls that they do today. Jordan would be going to the line 15+ times a game under today's rules.

Hand-checking is still as much a benefit to defenders today because it happens just as often now as it did then (it was banned before the 2nd Bulls three-peat, and as a Clippers fan I can tell you that Chris Paul hand-checks players as much as he can get away with doing). It should be pretty obvious that players as talented as Jordan and James can beat an individual defender almost at will and team defense is much more relevant. Its effectiveness is overstated by people who don't play basketball and don't realize that you need to be within arm's length of someone to hand-check them - not exactly the wisest strategy to press up against two players who were much more feared as drivers than as shooters.

You could probably go a step further and say that Jordan's team employed the only player in the league even comparable to individual defenders today such as Kawhi and Andre Iguodala, both of whom won Finals MVP awards for doing enough defensively to prevent LeBron from singlehandedly beating their massively-favored teams.

Other than that, are you implying that LeBron would only shoot like 3 free throws a game if they called it like you think they did in the 90s? He sure doesn't shoot a whole lot of them these days and is well-known as one of the best (if not the absolute best) in the history of the game at finishing through contact, so it's unclear why one would think he's gaining some unique advantage through the officials.

Last edited by nol : 06-03-2017 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:58 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by nol View Post
Saying Wade was in his prime is a joke. He was equally as good as Pippen the first year LeBron was in Miami (unfortunately whoever the team's 4th-best player was then would probably fail to make a list of the 150 best players in the league, which makes the whole 'talent' argument quite spurious if you believe basketball isn't 3-on-3), and then fell off a cliff after that.

Wade was coming off his two best seasons ever. He was the 2nd best player in the league in 2009-2010. He tailed off the last season (and the playoffs in the 3rd), but he was most certainly in his prime when Lebron joined that team. And as much as I love Pippen, Wade was a better player at that point than Scottie ever was.

I'd take the Bulls 4 through 6 over the Heat but the Bulls weren't exactly rolling with a great supporting cast either. Scott Burrell, Dickey Simpkins, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington were in the rotation on those later Championship teams.

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Originally Posted by nol View Post
Other than that, your main argument here is that top 10-20 player Chris Bosh put up big numbers on a mediocre team previously in his career before joining LeBron as a free agent whereas top 10-20 player Horace Grant was drafted by the Bulls (with a top-10 pick, mind you. The last/only time LeBron played on a team bad enough to get such a high pick, he was younger than Jordan was as a rookie). Don't see a reason to penalize LeBron because his team couldn't find other good players.

Chris Bosh was the best offensive big man in the game when he signed with the Heat. Horace was a solid player but not in the same stratosphere as Bosh was who will be in the Hall of Fame shortly.

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Originally Posted by nol View Post
The Spurs teams are much better as well considering they won just as many regular-season games as the West teams Jordan faced even when liberally resting players. Check the stats 'prime Hall of Famers' Wade and Bosh had in the finals those years.

Those Spurs teams are great and I'd put them slightly above those Jazz teams. I just think people underestimate how good those Jazz teams were. They were clobbering teams in a really good conference.

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Originally Posted by nol View Post
The two years Jordan retired, the champion came from the West. Hell, in '94-95 the 6 seed from the West swept the 1 seed from the East. The Cavs (with Irving and Love injured) put up a better fight against the Warriors than any West team did 2015 and literally only need to win 1 Finals game for the same to be said about them this season.

That Magic team is still better than any team Lebron has faced in the East since that Celtics team close to 10 years ago. It's not his fault but the East has been a complete joke for about a decade now.
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Old 06-03-2017, 07:06 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by nol View Post
Other than that, are you implying that LeBron would only shoot like 3 free throws a game if they called it like you think they did in the 90s? He sure doesn't shoot a whole lot of them these days and is well-known as one of the best (if not the absolute best) in the history of the game at finishing through contact, so it's unclear why one would think he's gaining some unique advantage through the officials.

No, I imagine he would shoot a good amount of free throws. I'm just saying that statistically star players have higher free throw rates than they did in Jordan's era. Especially guards. I mean guys like Demar Derozan's free throw rate dwarfs Jordan's.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:08 PM   #48
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Wade was coming off his two best seasons ever. He was the 2nd best player in the league in 2009-2010. He tailed off the last season (and the playoffs in the 3rd), but he was most certainly in his prime when Lebron joined that team. And as much as I love Pippen, Wade was a better player at that point than Scottie ever was.

That means nothing relative to how he went on to play. He played like half the games and sat out of back-to-backs in the 2nd season. More importantly, he dropped from 9th to 29th in RAPM even though he was selectively only playing in games where he was well-rested. That's at best a fringe all-star player after year 1, compared to Pippen who was basically last year's version of Kawhi but better at passing.


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I'd take the Bulls 4 through 6 over the Heat but the Bulls weren't exactly rolling with a great supporting cast either. Scott Burrell, Dickey Simpkins, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington were in the rotation on those later Championship teams.

Luc Longley was an above-average center for that day (one thing 90s nostalgists forget is that that all these Hall of Fame big guys were going against massive stiffs more often than not). Steve Kerr is another guy who teams today would be all over if they saw a player with his stats.

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Chris Bosh was the best offensive big man in the game when he signed with the Heat. Horace was a solid player but not in the same stratosphere as Bosh was who will be in the Hall of Fame shortly.

You underrate Grant relative to Bosh in the same way you underrate Pippen relative to Wade. Both players were substantially better defenders (and I don't say that lightly because Bosh was a borderline all-defense team member), and Grant is a deserving Hall of Famer too. He rated as a top 10-20 player when he left the Bulls for the Magic as well, so it's not like MJ was just propping him up. There is talent in things like playing good defense and rebounding, and as such the players were equally talented when they played with Jordan/James. Jordan wasn't drafting and signing these guys, so again it doesn't make sense to knock James because he had to take matters into his own hands and leave teams that were doing a poor job of building around him (and still winning huge amounts of games and a couple of titles despite that).

Here's Bosh's rank in RAPM/RPM by year, starting with the year before he joined the Heat: 9th, 14th, 21st, 56th, 44th. Then of course the following season the Heat missed the playoffs even though they signed an above-average SF in Luol Deng to replace LeBron (Bosh was 121st in RAPM then). Bosh's heart issue cutting his career short overshadowed that he had been substantially on the decline as well.



Quote:
Those Spurs teams are great and I'd put them slightly above those Jazz teams. I just think people underestimate how good those Jazz teams were. They were clobbering teams in a really good conference.

I think people underestimate that the teams the Bulls played against in the Finals were constructed to be good teams and not "to beat MJ/the Bulls." You had guys like Dan Majerle and Jeff Hornacek trying to guard Jordan. The only teams in the past 6 years to beat LeBron have an all-defense wing (or two, or three), a smart team defense behind them, and are stacked enough that the all-star caliber guy guarding LeBron can afford to be the 3rd or 4th option on offense. Other than that, it's generally been a beatdown, and even when the Heat/Cavs have lost, it would be hard to look at their opponent's postseason run and conclude there was another team or two that would have beaten LeBron in the Finals had the Spurs/Warriors suffered some major injuries. This is coming from someone who thinks that the 8-seed Mavs team that lost to the Spurs in '14 could have swapped places with the East's 8 seed and made it to the conference Finals: even if that's the case, LeBron's team was not in any great danger of losing. I also don't hold it against LeBron when teams like Boston are scared of mortgaging their future because they (correctly) deduce that adding an All-Star to a 50-win team would still have them coming up short.

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That Magic team is still better than any team Lebron has faced in the East since that Celtics team close to 10 years ago. It's not his fault but the East has been a complete joke for about a decade now.

This gets convoluted with LeBron having been so good for 10+ years that it's almost impossible to surround him with players so bad that his team doesn't get the 1st or 2nd seed. As a result, he plays bad teams in the first round: you would have to be deluding yourself to think that the championship Bulls teams were playing anyone any good in the first round either. Other than that, you're taking the fact that Jordan didn't have as many other ways to affect the game when his shot wasn't falling (he was still a great passer and rebounder for his position but not LeBron by any means, and he couldn't slide over and guard an opposing big man who was giving the Bulls trouble) and as a result, the Bulls would occasionally lose games in the Eastern Conference playoffs and holding that against LeBron. The 50+ win teams LeBron has swept through in recent years are no better or worse than the average 90s Pacers or Knicks team: the only difference is that you were young enough to look up to Patrick Ewing or Reggie Miller but don't feel the same way about Kyle Lowry or Paul George.

Anyway if LeBron retired before game 2 or suffers a career-ending injury, I'd have to say Jordan had the better career (LeBron would definitely lose major points from me for quitting in the middle of a series) but since LeBron is still going strong by all accounts, a few more MVP-caliber seasons of him dragging a team that would miss the playoffs without him into the Finals would be enough to give him a sizable edge.

Last edited by nol : 06-03-2017 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:51 PM   #49
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That means nothing relative to how he went on to play. He played like half the games and sat out of back-to-backs in the 2nd season. More importantly, he dropped from 9th to 29th in RAPM even though he was selectively only playing in games where he was well-rested. That's at best a fringe all-star player after year 1, compared to Pippen who was basically last year's version of Kawhi but better at passing.

I don't think his game dropped that dramatically in the course of 5 months. I think the more likely scenario is his dropoff statistically had more to do with his new role and inability for the players to mesh with each other on the court.

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Luc Longley was an above-average center for that day. Steve Kerr is another guy who teams today would be all over if they saw a player with his stats.

Longley was not above-average. Not in a league with so many quality Centers.

For all these great role players that made up the Bulls, isn't it strange that none of them went on to be successful anywhere else outside of Horace?

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You underrate Grant relative to Bosh in the same way you underrate Pippen relative to Wade. Both players were substantially better defenders (and I don't say that lightly because Bosh was a borderline all-defense team member), and Grant is a deserving Hall of Famer as well. He rated as a top 10-20 player when he left the Bulls for the Magic as well, so it's not like MJ was just propping him up.

Here's Bosh's rank in RAPM/RPM by year, starting with the year before he joined the Heat: 9th, 14th, 21st, 56th, 44th. Then of course the following season the Heat missed the playoffs even though they signed an above-average SF in Luol Deng to replace LeBron. Bosh's heart issue cutting his career short overshadowed that he had been substantially on the decline as well.

Bosh was incredible his last few years in Toronto. A legitimate top-10 player who you could run your offense through. It's not a knock on Horace who is a very good player. Just that if you were given an NBA franchise and given your choice of building around Horace Grant or Chris Bosh, you'd take Chris Bosh in a heartbeat.

I understand a lot of players saw their stats decline when joining up with Lebron earlier in his career. But perhaps there's a constant in that scenario instead of assuming players were zapped of talent over a 5-month offseason.

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This gets convoluted with the LeBron having been so good for 10+ years that it's been impossible to surround him with players so bad that his team doesn't get the 1st or 2nd seed. As a result, he plays bad teams in the first round: you would have to be deluding yourself to think that the championship Bulls teams were playing anyone any good in the first round either. Other than that, you're taking the fact that Jordan didn't have as many other ways to affect the game when his shot wasn't falling (he was still a great passer and rebounder for his position but not LeBron by any means, and he couldn't slide over and guard an opposing big man who was giving the Bulls trouble) and as a result, the Bulls would occasionally lose games in the Eastern Conference playoffs and holding that against LeBron. The 50+ win teams LeBron has swept through in recent years are no better or worse than the average 90s Pacers or Knicks team: the only difference is that you were young enough to look up to Patrick Ewing or Reggie Miller but don't feel the same way about Kyle Lowry or Paul George.

That late 90's Pacers team was really good. Better than anyone Lebron has faced since the 2010-2011 Bulls team. The 90's Knicks teams were good too. Putting these recent Raptors or Pacers teams anywhere near those teams is silly. That 92-93 Knicks team had an SRS 3 points higher than those that you are mentioning. Same with that 97-98 Pacers team.

First round series are kind of pointless to argue because neither was really threatened in them. I still say that early 90's Hawks team was better than anyone Lebron went up against in the first round in his Championship years. Same with that Bullets team.

I don't really think these are arguments for or against either player though. You can't control who you face in the playoffs.
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Old 06-03-2017, 10:00 PM   #50
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Longley was not above-average. Not in a league with so many quality Centers.

These centers were quality in large part because the Hall of Famers were going against stiffs (it should be common sense that with the explosion in basketball's international popularity, America does not have a monopoly on growing seven-footers and without guys like Gobert, Adams, Capela, Embiid, the Gasols, Jokic, Nurkic, and Thompson we'd be looking at starting Cs like Miles Plumlee, Kendrick Perkins, and Spencer Hawes who players like Cousins, Davis, and Towns would have even more of a field day against) and because with the defensive rules as they were, you could go one-on-one in the post. Patrick Ewing's offensive game would be seen as severely lacking today with all the different ways defenses can double team the post.

Since you like BPM, it would be interesting to note that in 1992-93 35-year-old Bill Laimbeer and 39-year-old Robert Parish were top-10 centers with a mighty BPM of 0.8 and 0.7 respectively. It was a very low bar to cross those days to be an above-average center. Horace Grant had a BPM of 3.7 that year; Patrick Ewing's was 2.2. Nostalgia's a hell of a drug I guess. It turns out that we don't see as many 'great' centers because trying to score 20+ points a game on straight post-ups is not the most efficient way to score and that a player who does what Rudy Gobert does provides much more value to his team than any of the 90s centers outside of Hakeem, the Admiral, and Shaq did at their very best (yes, even before he got fat Shaq had some years where he wasn't engaged on defense and was less impactful overall than Gobert was this year).

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For all these great role players that made up the Bulls, isn't it strange that none of them went on to be successful anywhere else outside of Horace?

From the 2nd three-peat, Pippen was the best player on a Blazers team that almost beat the Shaq-Kobe Lakers, Kerr was a very good role player on championship Spurs teams, Kukoc was solid player for many years after the Bulls: in 2001 he got traded to the Hawks and averaged 20-6-5 for the rest of the season. Ron Harper played the last 2 years of his career as the starting PG for the championship Lakers. That would be everyone else in the rotation besides Rodman (who just checked out mentally) and Longley (who was old and had acquitted himself well enough during Jordan's first retirement).

From the first three-peat, the team won 55 games the year after Jordan retired and lost a close 7-game series to a team that lost the Finals in a close 7-game series. BJ Armstrong was an All-Star. It's not like they even signed a big name to replace Jordan; their starting SG was literally some guy who had been playing overseas and averaged 8 points a game for them. Pippen and Grant were 2nd and 10th in the league in BPM (in other words, had people had the tools to better analyze the game back then you'd have heard a lot of complaints the previous years about how the Bulls are a stacked superteam with 2 of the top 5/3 of the top 10-15 players and how boring and unfair it is for fans of other teams) and the Bulls still won 55 games even though Pippen missed 10, Grant missed 12, and Jordan missed 82; meanwhile, the Cavs are 4-18 over the past 3 seasons when LeBron doesn't play. You really thought this was going to be some trick question, huh? It takes a very minimal amount of brainpower to understand that if a team wins 3 straight championships and then wins 55 games after its best player retires, it's not at all strange when the team doesn't want those remaining players to go "anywhere else" in the first place.

You really want to compare that to how the Heat basically traded LeBron and 38-year-old Ray Allen for Luol Deng, Josh McRoberts, and Whiteside (and at midseason traded multiple 1st rounders to upgrade the PG position with Dragic) yet still couldn't crack the playoffs in the weak East? Or how the Cavaliers, despite winning multiple draft lotteries, were hot garbage until LeBron decided to come back?

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Bosh was incredible his last few years in Toronto. A legitimate top-10 player who you could run your offense through. It's not a knock on Horace who is a very good player. Just that if you were given an NBA franchise and given your choice of building around Horace Grant or Chris Bosh, you'd take Chris Bosh in a heartbeat.

Once again, a player's early career is irrelevant to what they do when older, especially in today's game where there's much more movement and you can count the number of guys capable of playing at an All-Star level at age 30+ on one hand.

If you had LeBron James or Michael Jordan to build around, you'd take Horace Grant as his teammate in a heartbeat. Same with Pippen over Wade. It's not LeBron's fault he had to brute-force his way to a decent team rather than having a better one built for him. If I were forced to build around Toronto Chris Bosh, I'd trade for multiple young players and try to draft someone better than him because otherwise my team is going to be mediocre at best.

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I understand a lot of players saw their stats decline when joining up with Lebron earlier in his career. But perhaps there's a constant in that scenario instead of assuming players were zapped of talent over a 5-month offseason.

First, why would one penalize LeBron for being good enough to be an NBA star at an age when Jordan was losing in the Sweet Sixteen? I also don't understand how you don't think old, injury-prone players decline quickly. We are less than a week removed from wondering whether Boston would be better off trading a 2nd team all-NBA player rather than signing him to a big contract next year that takes him into his 30s. Thinking LeBron doesn't make his teammates better is literally the most ludicrous criticism one could invent for him. Have you looked at the 2007 Cavs roster lately?

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That late 90's Pacers team was really good. Better than anyone Lebron has faced since the 2010-2011 Bulls team. The 90's Knicks teams were good too. Putting these recent Raptors or Pacers teams anywhere near those teams is silly. That 92-93 Knicks team had an SRS 3 points higher than those that you are mentioning. Same with that 97-98 Pacers team.

If you are able to find out what SRS is, work a little harder and think of how good the Raptors or Wizards would look if there were 4 new expansion teams they got to play against 10+ times a year (538 uses an Elo-based system and the peak rating achieved by teams like the Hawks, Raptors, Pacers, and Celtics in recent years is equal to or greater than the peak rating the Knicks and Pacers achieved in the 90s). Again, the only teams LeBron has lost to in the last 6 years are teams with a much higher SRS than those Knicks/Pacers teams (even the Spurs who don't give a crap about the regular season) and the teams he's beaten have been such thorough beatdowns that a much better team would have just lost in 5-6 games. Also note that I said 'average' Knicks or Pacers team. When you want to build them up in your head, you think of each team or player at their best, but in reality most of them had only 1 good year; just as good or better were the Bulls were the year Rose won MVP or the Pacers when Lance Stephenson and Roy Hibbert hadn't melted down or the Raptors were last year with Lowry healthy the whole season. Just as LeBron didn't play a Bulls team that simultaneously had MVP Rose and 2nd-team all-NBA Noah and healthy Deng and Pau Gasol, these random 90s teams didn't have everyone firing at all cylinders (Patrick Ewing did not simultaneously score like he did in the 80s and defend like he did in the 90s).

This also overlooks that a team has to have a "LeBron stopper" to even have a chance. You can make a team with 4 All-Stars, one that wins 60 games in the regular season, and if the best option you have for stopping LeBron is the guy in your starting lineup who is merely good rather than an All-Star/All-Defensive player, you end up swept by the Cavs even when Love and Irving are injured. Players like Paul George, PJ Tucker, DeMarre Carroll, Jae Crowder all have good reputations as a wing defender, yet all of them have repeatedly been steamrolled by LeBron in the playoffs.

Last edited by nol : 06-05-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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