Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[Young Drachma]

U.S. News - Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

A grand jury will investigate the death of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old shot to death in a gated community in Florida on Feb. 26, state attorney Norm Wolfinger announced Tuesday.

"I share in the desire of the family and the community to accurately collect and evaluate all the facts surrounding the tragic death of Trayvon Martin," Wolfinger said in a news release. "The public is entitled to no less than a thorough, deliberate, and just review of the facts. We intend to honor that commitment."

The shooting occurred February 26 when Zimmerman spotted Martin walking home from buying candy and iced tea at a convenience store.
Zimmerman, patrolling the neighborhood in his car, called the 911 emergency number and reported what he called "a real suspicious guy."

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," Zimmerman told dispatchers, adding, "These @!$%#s. They always get away."
The dispatcher, hearing heavy breathing on the phone, asked Zimmerman: "Are you following him?"

"Yeah," Zimmerman said.

"Okay, we don't need you to do that," the dispatcher responded.
But several neighbors subsequently called 911 to report a scuffle between Zimmerman and Martin. While some of the callers were still on the phone, cries for help followed by a gunshot could be heard in the background.
"I recognized that (voice) as my baby screaming for help before his life was taken," Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, told Reuters.
“(Zimmerman) was reacting to the color of his skin,’’ Fulton, said Monday on NBC's Today show. “He committed no crime. My son wasn’t doing anything but walking on the sidewalk, and I just don’t understand why this situation got out of control.’’

'Stand your ground'
Police declined to arrest Zimmerman, citing Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, enacted in 2005 and now in effect in at least 16 other states.

Dubbed "Shoot first (ask questions later)" by opponents, the Florida law allows a potential crime victim who is "in fear of great bodily injury" to use deadly force in public places.

[spleen1015]

That is some fucked up shit.

[miked]

I think if we allow untrained people to walk the streets with firearms and give them immunity so long they think there is some threat, we are in big trouble as a society. What's troubling is that many other states feel it's ok for idiots to walk around with guns and "stand their ground" if they feel threatened.

[AENeuman]

Track, confront, shoot...reload. Horrible.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The same police that didn't want to charge him told a witness that said she heard the kid crying for help that she was wrong & it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

[Ksyrup]

I don't see how there was any argument that the guy was a potential crime victim in fear for his life. He was chasing someone who hadn't done anything to anyone yet.

I haven't closely followed this since the initial news reports, but part of the suspicion here is that I think one of the cops on the scene is alleged to have corrected or coaxed a witness to change their testimony. I believe it was about whose voice they heard crying for help. This whole thing smells pretty bad.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The same police that didn't want to charge him told a witness that said she heard the kid crying for help that she was wrong & it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Beat me to it. That's what I recall reading.

[Crapshoot]

Jesus christ. I'm waiting for someone (JIMGA?) to come in and say that shooting some poor black kid was ok because of some trigger happy jerk.

[dacman]

This whole story reeks -- armed desperately wannabe cops don't make good neighborhood watchers.

I'm equally troubled by the police and/or prosecutors acting as judge and jury and determining it must've been self defense when there is plenty of evidence, trustworthy or not, to suggest it may not have been. Dude should've been arrested that very night. If a jury determines he did nothing wrong, so be it. This "stand your ground" business is being grossly overapplied here.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The man on the left had a gun.

The kid on the right had a bag of skittles.

One of them cried for help.

The crying stopped when the one on the left shot the one on the right in the chest, killing him.

According to the police, it was self defense. The one on the left was crying for help. I guess he feared tasting the rainbow.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Jesus christ. I'm waiting for someone (JIMGA?) to come in and say that shooting some poor black kid was ok because of some trigger happy jerk.

this thread will likely end badly

[mckerney]

Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

“We are taking a beating over this,” said Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

Yeah, I'm sure if Trayvon had know what would happen he would've gone and been black somewhere else.

[spleen1015]

If I see those 2 people walking down the street, I'm more worried about the one on the left.

Just from those 2 pictures, unless the kid was the one with the gun, I don't see how the dude on the left could feel threaten by the kid.

Insane.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

this thread will likely end badly

I'd like to be proved wrong. History says someone at FOFC will justify it.

[gstelmack]

The fact that the guy was told to stop following the kid is going to make life pretty miserable going forward for him and the cops on the scene that declined to arrest him.

[Scoobz0202]

Don't be black in a gated community I guess

[Scoobz0202]

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments - ABC News

This video clip has the audio clip of Zimmerman saying, "These *expletive* always get away"

[Ksyrup]

I guess I equated this to the "get off my lawn" scenario a little too literally, because I expected George Zimmerman to be a old white guy with an NRA membership.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I guess I equated this to the "get off my lawn" scenario a little too literally, because I expected George Zimmerman to be a old white guy with an NRA membership.

Nah, case of young racist asshole who couldn't become a cop but still fantasized about it. Thus 46 calls to the police in 15 months and carrying around a semi automatic handgun in a gated community.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Nah, case of young racist asshole who couldn't become a cop but still fantasized about it. Thus 46 calls to the police in 15 months and carrying around a semi automatic handgun in a gated community.

46? Holy shit.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The state attorney's office should also be investigating his relationship to the police department. He seems like quite a nuisance who repeatedly got to do whatever he wanted. He was even busted for resisting arrest & assaulting a cop in 2005 & had the charges dropped.

Something is rotten in the state of Florida.

[molson]

Originally Posted by dacman

I'm equally troubled by the police and/or prosecutors acting as judge and jury and determining it must've been self defense when there is plenty of evidence, trustworthy or not, to suggest it may not have been. Dude should've been arrested that very night. If a jury determines he did nothing wrong, so be it. This "stand your ground" business is being grossly overapplied here.

I don't think anyone was saying "it must've been self defense", they just seemed wary to arrest based on what they had. But a grand jury now has it, which needs to happen before there can be a criminal case/trial anyway - I have no idea if Florida has preliminary hearings also, point is, the police don't have the power to make that call. They can arrest someone on suspicion of murder, and whether to arrest or not is always a judgment call based on public safety/civil liability risk, etc. It's not unusual at all that they'll hold off on the actual arrest, but may keep up a surveillance while the charging decisions/grand jury stuff is going on.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

If George Zimmerman had been the one laying on the ground with a hole in his chest & his only weapon a bag of skittles, Trayvon Martin would have been arrested and charged with murder.

[korme]

Please, please let this end the right way

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

If George Zimmerman had been the one laying on the ground with a hole in his chest & his only weapon a bag of skittles, Trayvon Martin would have been arrested and charged with murder.

"This is America. Nobody deserves to be treated as a black man!"

[molson]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

If George Zimmerman had been the one laying on the ground with a hole in his chest & his only weapon a bag of skittles, Trayvon Martin would have been arrested and charged with murder.

It's a popular thought but I don't know how we make that comparison. If there's a 17-year old black boy who is somehow an armed neighborhood watchman in a gated community and he has some kind of connection to law enforcement, and he shoots a 46-year old hooded Hispanic guy that was wandering around, and when questioned, the black boy says the Hispanic guy jumped him from behind when he was trying to track him down or something, would there be an immediate arrest? I think the police might refer that out for a charging decision before they arrest. Who knows though, everyone's speculating about people they know nothing about and what they'd do. Not all police or police departments are exactly the same, they're not all blinded by their racial prejudices believe it or not. Some surely are, but I don't think we can assume very single one always is.

[Julio Riddols]

This story has been boiling my blood for a week now, glad to see something is being done finally.. Now it better get done right. If this dude doesn't get convicted of first degree murder, there is going to be a serious backlash that might even trump the L.A. Riots.

Also, wtf is up with Florida? How do so many fucked up stories come from one specific state?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments - ABC News

From the article:

Nearly half a million people have signed an online petition on change.org urging law enforcement officials to step in and arrest Zimmerman, who violated major parts of the Neighborhood Watch Manual, which states "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers. And they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles."


There are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group, which police were not aware of at the time of Martin's killing, said Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch program.

(bolded mine)


So he wasn't actually in a real Neighborhood Watch program. Just some guy (or one of a group of people) walking around playing pretend.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments - ABC News

This video clip has the audio clip of Zimmerman saying, "These *expletive* always get away"

I hate when they will describe someone getting shot and killed, but using the word "assholes" is off limits.

[Passacaglia]

Kinda rubs me the wrong way how they had to insert "ABC News" into the article a handful of times.

[molson]

OK, I spent 3 minutes researching the Florida Grand Jury process (slightly more difficult than just assuming I know everything like the media and many online commentators in this case, but I had at least 3 minutes to spare). In Florida, murder prosecutions must go through the grand jury, it's the only way initiate that charge. The grand jury, who are regular citizens, have some investigatory powers and they can "return a true bill", i.e., authorize a murder prosecution by majority vote. The state prosecution doesn't have to actually file an indictment after that, but they can't do it until the grand jury gives the OK. I may be missing some subtleties, and there may be some legit concerns with the police investigation prior to the grand jury getting the case, but I think the process is important to at least acknowledge before we hang the cops for not charging him with 1st degree murder the same day.

I wonder if they'll be able to definitively determine who is yelling for help on the 911 calls in the background, because the yelling goes on for a pretty long time. Like 20 seconds or something. If it's Zimmerman, he might have a pretty good self-defense case. Was there an altercation, a struggle for the gun? Even if Zimmerman was racially profiling, and stupidly approached the kid for no reason, I think he still has a legal right to defend himself if shit gets out of hand, depending on how Florida defines self defense. If they can prove it's Martin calling for help, Zimmerman's going to need a pretty elaborate and still somehow plausible story to avoid at least a manslaughter charge.

As far as the arrest decision that night - you can only look at what the police knew that night and what dispatch told them. The info was probably something along the lines of "suspicious young male in gated community" ("black" might have been in there too, but I didn't hear Zimmerman identify him by race on the 911 calls, but he may have).....when they get there, they find a guy who lives there, who identifies himself as a neighborhood watchman, who has killed the guy and has some self-defense story (that we don't know the details of yet). Maybe if it's a black night watchman, they'd arrest him anyway, who knows, but I'd say that'd be pretty risky from a liability perspective. I think the better course of action there would be to investigate and let that play out - normally, the night watchman at the gated community is not going to be a huge public safety risk, though in this case, maybe there there were some extra factors that show he could be....it's still at least a tough call IMO.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by molson

I wonder if they'll be able to definitively determine who is yelling for help on the 911 calls in the background, because the yelling goes on for a pretty long time. Like 20 seconds or something. If it's Zimmerman, he might have a pretty good self-defense case. Was there an altercation, a struggle for the gun? Even if Zimmerman was racially profiling, and stupidly approached the kid for no reason, I think he still has a legal right to defend himself if shit gets out of hand, depending on how Florida defines self defense.

I would hope that this would not hold up as a valid self defense defense. I that case he walked up to someone on the street and pulled a gun on them with no provocation (other than being black, of course) and then shot them for defending themselves. It's no more self defense than a mugger shooting someone for fighting back.

[JediKooter]

I hope the state of Florida allows someone to leave their house and walk up to somebody and point a gun at them. Not sure if many states have that kind of law.

[molson]

Originally Posted by mckerney

I would hope that this would not hold up as a valid self defense defense. I that case he walked up to someone on the street and pulled a gun on them with no provocation (other than being black, of course) and then shot them for defending themselves. It's no more self defense than a mugger shooting someone for fighting back.

We don't know what his story is yet, if he pulled the gun on him or what. Though he did talk to police, so he's probably stuck with that story now, which would be bad for him if it doesn't hold up. Did he say anything about all those pleas for help we heard on the 911 calls? If he told the police the kid never said anything, and then the voice crying for help is determined to be the kid, then he's in trouble. (this is why criminals know not to talk to police - it's better to frame your story later, after the investigation, if ever, so your story isn't contradicted by later-discovered facts). But if Zimmerman's story was that Martin accosted him and got hold of his gun somehow, and that he (Zimmerman) was yelling for help for about 20 seconds as the struggle went on, then he’s got a little more credibility if the voice can be confirmed to be him calling for help.

[mckerney]

And the issue with the police isn't just a failure to arrest Zimmerman, they appeared to be covering up for him. They took his word completely and witnesses were either ignored or told they were wrong. When a witness told the police they had heard Trayvon scream for help they corrected the witness saying it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

[molson]

Originally Posted by mckerney

And the issue with the police isn't just a failure to arrest Zimmerman, they appeared to be covering up for him. They took his word completely and witnesses were either ignored or told they were wrong. When a witness told the police they had heard Trayvon scream for help they corrected the witness saying it was Zimmerman yelling for help.

That conversation is probably recorded somewhere so we'll see how it plays out. Maybe the cops all decided to cover it up, but maybe there was a miscommunication/police error. This stuff happens fast, and it's late at night. An particular officer may have believed that it was a legit self-defense thing, so when a witness said Martin called for help, the officer honestly thought that the witness misspoke and said, "you mean Zimmerman cried for help right"? If it was that kind of scenario, the officer could have been more open minded and precise, but it's a huge stretch to be alleging coverups and conspiracies at this point. Officers have thousands of conversations with all kinds of people, and a lot of it involves horrible stuff - it's not always as smooth and clean and to the point as we'd like, or as its portrayed on TV. Which makes it all the more important that arrests, and charging decisions aren't based on emotion, because that's when officers make mistakes and cities get sued for millions. If anyone consciously tried to cover this up just to protect Zimmerman (not sure why, aren't all cops racist against Hispanics too? ), then I'm sure the Martin family will dig it up, they're going to have a lot of legal help now.

[Julio Riddols]

Wait, so in Florida you can kill whoever you want and then just go chill at your house for a week or two and wait until they hold a meeting to decide whether or not to arrest you? Even when they have recorded evidence that you got out of your car, pursued and shot someone without being provoked? Even when the dispatcher told you not to?

Just trying to make sure I understand things correctly here.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

Wait, so in Florida you can kill whoever you want and then just go chill at your house for a week or two and wait until they hold a meeting to decide whether or not to arrest you? Even when they have recorded evidence that you got out of your car, pursued and shot someone without being provoked? Even when the dispatcher told you not to?

Just trying to make sure I understand things correctly here.

The police can arrest you on suspicion on murder, but they can't make charging decisions. A grand jury can authorize the state to charge someone with murder, but they don't make the call to arrest, or to actually prosecute. The prosecutor decides whether to prosecute once the grand jury gives them the OK, and then they actually conduct the prosecution.

The police do arrest people on suspicion of murder all the time, but not every time. Sometimes there's no arrest until there's a grand jury indictment (like with Jerry Sandusky). The police MAY arrest if they have probable cause, but there's all kinds of other considerations that can go into that decision - public safety, defense claims, civil liability concerns. (if someone later decides you're wrong on the probable cause determination, your career is probably over and the city will be sued). They sometimes get legal advice from prosecutors or their own department attorneys - advice which they may or may not take.

Here, unless I missed something they didn't have "recorded evidence that (Zimmerman) got out of (his) car, pursued and shot someone without being provoked". They probably didn't even have those 911 calls that night, dispatch relays general info to police, they don't play the the actual 911 calls over the police radio. And even if police had that info, there was no evidence of what actually happened during whatever altercation happened, if any altercation happened, they just know stuff Zimmerman said before he killed Martin, and what he told police afterwards.

Edit: I'm actually not sure how to analyze constitutionality of an arrest in circumstances like this - where it's clear there was a killing, and it's clear who did it, but there's a self-defense claim. Does that always add up to probable cause for murder no matter what? Or does the credibility of the self-defense claim have to be evaluated by the police at the scene? If it's the latter, what's the standard for when you can arrest? I don't know those things, but presumably Florida police or at least the people giving them advice would.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: I'm actually not sure how to analyze constitutionality of an arrest in circumstances like this - where it's clear there was a killing, and it's clear who did it, but there's a self-defense claim. Does that always add up to probable cause for murder no matter what? Or does the credibility of the self-defense claim have to be evaluated by the police at the scene? If it's the latter, what's the standard for when you can arrest? I don't know those things, but presumably Florida police or at least the people giving them advice would.

This is Florida. Methinx you presume far too much.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

This is Florida. Methinx you presume far too much.

That's true, they could have not known the standard, and the on-call prosecutor might not have known it either. Certainly, it's safer not to arrest if you're not sure.

And I'm not sure of this either, but I remember someone from the Sheriff's Office saying something about how they didn't arrest because there wasn't anything contradicting the self-defense story. That might be their department policy, or it might be what they think their policy is - that they don't immediately arrest if there's a plausible self-defense claim. That's probably a good policy, and it probably gives them some protection from civil liability if they can follow it. And hey, maybe it wasn't followed correctly here - maybe the self-defense claim wasn't plausible. But it's safer to err in that direction. If you arrest someone in violation of your own policy, you're in big trouble, because you probably violated their rights. If you decide not to arrest someone right away, there's much less liability risk (the police could be sued I guess if they don't arrest someone right away and then that person kills again, but it'd be an uphill battle because the police aren't legally required to arrest anyone.)

And on the other side, the argument to arrest him is much more emotionally-driven - we want our justice NOW. It's dangerous thinking and police are trained not to think this way (though they do screw up and arrest people in this manner, and ya, blacks are probably hit with this disproportionately, at least in some places.). He's probably not a huge flight/safety risk, at least compared to most killers - and those would be the legitimate reasons to arrest him earlier than later, not because we're mad.

Edit: I have no idea if the police made the right calls here, either legally, or just policy-wise and execution-wise, I'm just throwing out some of the factors that can go into this stuff. Hopefully police departments across the country take this as an opportunity to revisit their own policy and training and determine exactly what they would do in a situation like this, and review and know the procedures they have in place for these types of calls. I'm positive that plenty of nationwide police academy scenario trainings will begin with the instructor saying, "so, remember that case in Florida, let's talk about that."

[bhlloy]

I guess my problem with that thinking is, if that's the hard and fast policy how do you ever arrest anyone for murder? In a case where you have a perp but no witnesses on the scene all the perp has to do is say "self defense" and you let him walk?

[molson]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I guess my problem with that thinking is, if that's the hard and fast policy how do you ever arrest anyone for murder? In a case where you have a perp but no witnesses on the scene all the perp has to do is say "self defense" and you let him walk?

Ya, ideally you could draft a policy that excludes that scenario, but includes ones where there's some arguable legitimacy. All while giving some discretion to the officers at the scene, but not too much. Unfortunately, many written policies suck. This would be a good high school honors civics class assignment or something to write one.

[bhlloy]

Yeah you might be right. Ultimately I'd have thought it makes sense to arrest anyone who has just killed an unarmed person just to be safe, but I understand that's not the kind of thinking that you can write laws based on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

If George Zimmerman had been the one laying on the ground with a hole in his chest & his only weapon a bag of skittles, Trayvon Martin would have been arrested and charged with murder.

Depends upon the neighborhood.

Whether it's Sanford, FL or Athens, GA, there's no shortage of places where Trayvon would have gotten a pat on the back & help getting out of town.

And there damned sure wouldn't have been a media frenzy about the death.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

The police do arrest people on suspicion of murder all the time, but not every time.

Spot on. Had a case here fairly recently where two people claimed self-defense during a home invasion, no arrest (despite the fact that the dead guy was shot in the back).

Give or take 4 months later the pair are arrested & charged with murder, turned out the dead guy was the buyer in a drug deal where the sellers (the gun toting couple) decided they wanted to keep the money and the merchandise.

[bronconick]

The tape with the dispatcher is going to get the guy thrown into prison eventually, unless there's a lot more corruption in this case and at that point you might get the feds down there poking around.

I like the idea of a "stand your ground" law in that I shouldn't be legally required to escape from my own home by an intruder. That shouldn't give me the right to chase him down because I thought he was casing the joint.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by mckerney

“We are taking a beating over this,” said Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

Yeah, I'm sure if Trayvon had know what would happen he would've gone and been black somewhere else.

Can this fucker come off sounding anymore insensitive or fucking ignorant.......Trayvon wouldn't have gone to the store to get fucking skittles? Really?

In terms of a struggle, the kid had to be scared shitless when someone that outweighed him by 50 pounds started chasing him for no reason. Not knowing what his intentions were, I am sure most of us would have tried to fight back or getaway.

I am all for exercising force in a self defense situation but this guy went looking for a reason to play Dirty Harry........Self defense never equals chasing someone down and fucking shooting them when you don't witness them do anything, have no reasonable indication they are going to do anything and don't make a threatening move/gesture towards you.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And there damned sure wouldn't have been a media frenzy about the death.

Oh yeah... I forgot that the media hates white people.

Thanks for the reminder!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

“We are taking a beating over this,” said Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

Yeah, I'm sure if Trayvon had know what would happen he would've gone and been black somewhere else.

Once I read the story about him calling the cops that much, I knew the type of person he was. We have one of these in our neighborhood too. Always in everyone else's business, always calling the cops, always bugging people.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by bronconick

I like the idea of a "stand your ground" law in that I shouldn't be legally required to escape from my own home by an intruder. That shouldn't give me the right to chase him down because I thought he was casing the joint.

To be fair, even the sponsors of the original bill have come out and said there's no way this should cover anything close to this situation. I guess it's a case of what they meant it to say vs. what it actually does say (see Molson's point above about how hard it is to write a decent law)

Hopefully even if they can't get any kind of a conviction this results in a better law being written. Not much consolation to the family of course.