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Old 01-23-2019, 10:34 AM   #701
JPhillips
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Schilling's career peak was from age 34-37. Given the time he was playing, I think it's fair to question whether his performance was enhanced. A more traditional aging curve would have left Schilling as good, but not HOF good.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:06 PM   #702
BishopMVP
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
I'd argue that Schilling isn't in more because his attacks on journalists than anything else, tbh. Looking at advanced stats, his and Mussina's careers are very similar, so if anything that should help Schilling.
Plus Schilling had the two insane postseason runs.
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
Schilling's career peak was from age 34-37. Given the time he was playing, I think it's fair to question whether his performance was enhanced. A more traditional aging curve would have left Schilling as good, but not HOF good.
Edgar Martinez's peak was from 32-38, Mike Mussina had two seasons as good as any he had at age 37 and 39 before retiring, even Randy Johnson had his "peak" from 35-40 - doesn't mean I think they should be accused of steroid use without other evidence. I also think Schilling's peak starts at age 30, and he had obvious control issues early in his career that I don't think steroids would cure. Curt Schilling Stats | Baseball-Reference.com
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:28 PM   #703
ISiddiqui
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I also think Schilling's peak starts at age 30, and he had obvious control issues early in his career that I don't think steroids would cure. Curt Schilling Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Schilling's 34-37 years include 3 of his top 4 seasons according to WAR (including two 8+ WAR seasons) and the one that was as high as the others was due to injury. He was good 30 and 31 (6+ WAR years), but then started to decline... until he hit 34 and hit a career best year.

I think in that era it's only natural to ask questions about that.

Interesting enough Randy Johnson, as you mentioned, also had something similar... and both Johnson and Schilling hit this late 30s career highs while playing for Arizona.

Which raises the question - did they have a SP whisper for the ages, or was that a PED factory club?
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Old 01-23-2019, 06:37 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Schilling's 34-37 years include 3 of his top 4 seasons according to WAR (including two 8+ WAR seasons) and the one that was as high as the others was due to injury. He was good 30 and 31 (6+ WAR years), but then started to decline... until he hit 34 and hit a career best year.

I think in that era it's only natural to ask questions about that.

Interesting enough Randy Johnson, as you mentioned, also had something similar... and both Johnson and Schilling hit this late 30s career highs while playing for Arizona.

Which raises the question - did they have a SP whisper for the ages, or was that a PED factory club?
Pitching WAR is pretty useless IMO. His 97/98/01/02/04 seasons were great, and he was hurt during 99/00/03. It was before I started paying attention to him, but the 95 & 97 seasons were when he made big jumps in K/9, and he put up that career high (and absurd) 11.3 K/9 in 97 at age 30, so I feel confident listing that as the start of when he became a different pitcher. I'll let people who paid attention to the Orioles, Astros and Phillies in the 90's try to explain what happened at that time - he certainly wasn't the only future HoF starter who looks like he was being misused as a reliever, but he was also a lot wilder.

The age thing seems rather specious. Roy Halladay was better 31-34 than 27-30. Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman pitched without much if any dropoff until they were 42/43. John Smoltz turned back into a starter and had 3 of his best starting seasons at 38-40. Justin Verlander is back as a Cy Young candidate in his mid-30's after falling off in his early 30's. Bartolo Colon isn't a Hall of Famer, but he's another weird case who was out of baseball and showed back up to have his best season at age 40. Going back further through Hall of Fame starters you can find other big pitchers who got better in their 30's as their control improved like Nolan Ryan or Steve Carlton. Glavine, Maddux and Pedro are the only 3 recent HoF pitchers who followed a "normal" aging curve. (Btw unless I'm missing someone who'll get in from the veterans committee it's pretty weird no pitcher who retired between 1998-2008 will make it.)

Last edited by BishopMVP : 01-23-2019 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:04 PM   #705
Atocep
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(Btw unless I'm missing someone who'll get in from the veterans committee it's pretty weird no pitcher who retired between 1998-2008 will make it.)

Who were the best that qualify? Kevin Brown and David Wells? Pedro should have fallen into that time frame.

Brown probably should have received more serious consideration.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:24 AM   #706
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Who were the best that qualify? Kevin Brown and David Wells? Pedro should have fallen into that time frame.

Brown probably should have received more serious consideration.
Yeah definitely not saying any did, it's just a weird quirk. You have to go back to 1947-1955 to find any other gap longer than 4 years Hall of Fame Pitching Register | Baseball-Reference.com
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Old 01-25-2019, 05:55 PM   #707
ISiddiqui
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Pitching WAR is pretty useless IMO. His 97/98/01/02/04 seasons were great, and he was hurt during 99/00/03. It was before I started paying attention to him, but the 95 & 97 seasons were when he made big jumps in K/9, and he put up that career high (and absurd) 11.3 K/9 in 97 at age 30, so I feel confident listing that as the start of when he became a different pitcher.

How about looking at K/9. Yes, Schilling hit 11.3 in his age 30 year. The two years before that he was at 8.8 and 8.9 - very good numbers indeed (and he dealt with injuries in his age 29 season - '96). The year after he was 10.0. Excellent. In his age 32 and 33 seasons he was at 7.6 and 7.2. Then he goes to Arizona. In his 34 season he hits 10.3, then 11.0 in his age 35. In age 36, when also dealing with injuries ('03), he gets 10.4 K/9. And then he goes to Boston where he does 8.1, 8.4, and 8.1 in his age 37, 38, 39 years.

As late 30s increase in power was suspicious for hitters using PEDs, I contend it's suspicious for Schilling to increase his K/9 numbers in that way. 3 of his top 4 K/9 seasons came after he was 34. And if you want to blame injuries for his only 7.6 and 7.2 K/9 in his 32 and 33 seasons, then why does not that dampen his numbers in his age 29 season and 36 season?

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The age thing seems rather specious. Roy Halladay was better 31-34 than 27-30. Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman pitched without much if any dropoff until they were 42/43. John Smoltz turned back into a starter and had 3 of his best starting seasons at 38-40. Justin Verlander is back as a Cy Young candidate in his mid-30's after falling off in his early 30's.

Mid 30s are different than Late 30s and have been for a while. In addition, relievers have always been able to pitch effectively later because they have far less wear and tear on their arms due their lesser innings pitched. And the same is true for Smoltz, who probably was effect so much later in his career than either Maddux or Glavine (who also generally followed the aging curve, with his best years in his early 30s and having a decline followed by one really good year when he was 36 to declining the rest of the way) due to having those three years where he was a reliever.
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Old 01-25-2019, 07:19 PM   #708
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re: Smoltz - let's remember however that those years at 38-40 came 5 years after his TJ surgery.

In the 3-5 years after his own surgery, Tommy John was a 3x All-Star and the 4th season (shortened by a layoff when his young son was critically injured) he posted his lowest ERA since before the surgery.

With a rebuilt arm, I'm not sure we can apply the normal aging curves, relief stints or not
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Old 01-25-2019, 08:12 PM   #709
ISiddiqui
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Fair point about a rebuilt arm.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
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Old 01-27-2019, 02:58 PM   #710
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http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...cash-free-2019

As a frequent visitor to Tropicana Field, this sounds interesting.

As a frequent user of the wi-fi inside Tropicana Field, it is destined for failure.
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:17 PM   #711
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Tampa Bay Rays' Tropicana Field going cash-free in 2019

As a frequent visitor to Tropicana Field, this sounds interesting.

As a frequent user of the wi-fi inside Tropicana Field, it is destined for failure.

This could revolutionize the way I don't expect to ever be at Tropicana Field.

But while I'm not their target audience, I feel pretty secure in saying that cash transactions are not the reason people stay home. All this does is discourage whatever portion of their older fanbase is cash centric.
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:18 PM   #712
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Tampa Bay Rays' Tropicana Field going cash-free in 2019

As a frequent visitor to Tropicana Field, this sounds interesting.

As a frequent user of the wi-fi inside Tropicana Field, it is destined for failure.

blech.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but save a few rare exceptions I think it is dumb that you can't use cash.

What they should do is set up cash free concessions. Give people the incentive not to use cash, but still give them the option.
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