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Old 05-26-2020, 11:07 AM   #1
Abe Sargent
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Mount Rushmore: Video Games With Great Early Games but Poor Mid/Late

Hello all! I hope you are staying safe today! I call them good Alpha builds. Video Games on release that had a strong early game, but a bad middle and end game. I even will go back to these and replay their early game. What are your Mount Rushmore?


Here are mine:

1. The Movies
2. Spore
3. Oxygen Not Needed
4. Sid Meier's SimGolf
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:49 AM   #2
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Not sure if I can come up with 4, but Pathfinder:Kingmaker is the obvious one for me. A ridiculously unfair endgame that if you hadn’t built a certain way was almost impossible to overcome, but the first half of the game is the best RPG I’ve ever played.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:08 PM   #3
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Spore was gonna be so great!
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:32 PM   #4
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I'll have to give a list more thought but Bravely Default. The last part of the game is very tedious w/o giving away spoilers.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:37 PM   #5
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I feel like Civilization, in alll its various flavors, is the game that defines this type, for me personally. I dunno if I've ever finished a game of Civ in the last 20 years, but I've certainly started a few thousand.
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Old 05-26-2020, 12:58 PM   #6
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Man Sim Golf-had forgotten about that one.
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:11 PM   #7
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Spore was SO HYPED! Was ANY of it any good?
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:11 PM   #8
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At first I thought this thread was about great 1st games with lousy sequels...
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:12 PM   #9
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Fable seriously never delivered . No matter how excited I was to play childhood. It just really wasn't the living world I wanted (nor that was hyped)
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:13 PM   #10
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I barely remember the movies. Never heard of Oxygen or Simgolf
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Old 05-26-2020, 01:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by thesloppy View Post
I feel like Civilization, in alll its various flavors, is the game that defines this type, for me personally. I dunno if I've ever finished a game of Civ in the last 20 years, but I've certainly started a few thousand.

This is so me. I love starting the game and building my empire, then it slogs through the iddle and I quit and save. Then start again, rinse and repeat.

I spend a lot of time deleting saved games.

EDIT: I love Civ5
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:08 PM   #12
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I'll have to give a list more thought but Bravely Default. The last part of the game is very tedious w/o giving away spoilers.

That's interesting - I felt the opposite. I struggled to get into the game until later because the plot was so vanilla. I put it down 2 different times until I pushed through the end of... chapter 4/5(?)... wherever the game gets wonky. After that, yeah, the gameplay is repetitive but at least the plot gets more interesting.

Was the sequel any good? I have it but never played it.

SI
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:12 PM   #13
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1. The Movies

Probably would have been great if it just stuck to "The Movies" and stopped trying to be "The Sims: The Movies". Taking care of the actors was what killed the game for me, and the bigger your studio got, the more unmanageable they became. And in-game, if you "wrote" your own movie and it was a dozen scenes, it took like 5 in-game years to make it. Great beginning, but they clearly didn't put much effort into balancing the game during the mid- and late-game parts.

2. Assassin's Creed

The first one. It was great for a few hours, but then for whatever reason I just got bored. Tried several times to get through it, always enjoy the beginning of it, but it just dies for me in the middle. I really enjoyed the second one, though.

3. Most 4X Games

No matter how developers try prevent it, every land and space 4x game I play feels like a race to fill out the world/galaxy. And I love that part of every 4x game. But once the map is filled out, I always get this "okay, what now?" feeling. I know. Destroy my neighbors! But...that never feels as fun as the exploration and expand parts of the 4x games to me. My theory is that those modes in 4x games are more fleshed out and go deeper in design that the "exterminate" (war) part of the games. Battles and wars always feel so shallow in scope compared to the rest of the game.

4. Overlord

Great concept. Right up my alley. Have started the game several times but somewhere along the way I just lose interest and stop playing.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:54 PM   #14
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That's interesting - I felt the opposite. I struggled to get into the game until later because the plot was so vanilla. I put it down 2 different times until I pushed through the end of... chapter 4/5(?)... wherever the game gets wonky. After that, yeah, the gameplay is repetitive but at least the plot gets more interesting.

Was the sequel any good? I have it but never played it.

SI

I enjoyed Bravely Second at least as much as the first.

And I'm looking forward to Bravely Default II
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:37 PM   #15
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“Most 4x games” is very accurate - poster child for that for me is Stellaris. Love the exploration and the early game story, once I’m boxed in I don’t know if I’ve ever kept playing more than an hour or two.
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:42 PM   #16
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2. Assassin's Creed

The first one. It was great for a few hours, but then for whatever reason I just got bored. Tried several times to get through it, always enjoy the beginning of it, but it just dies for me in the middle. I really enjoyed the second one, though.

I tried playing AC and couldn't enjoy it at all. Uninstalled it within a couple of hours. Are AC2 and the rest of the series worth a try?
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:44 PM   #17
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I wish they would remake SimGolf. Enjoyed that game...
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:46 PM   #18
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I tried playing AC and couldn't enjoy it at all. Uninstalled it within a couple of hours. Are AC2 and the rest of the series worth a try?

Black Flag and Odyssey are the the 2 best IMO. I struggled to get into the series until Black Flag. I'd put Odyssey first, but I also love that time period. Origins is really good if you like Egyptian history. I do think the changes to combat and the RPG mechanics that they've added to Odyssey and Orgins has taken the series a step forward.

I'm really looking forward to Valhalla.
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:54 PM   #19
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So far I have two that I react to that way come to mind. Not sure if that's a fair / full assessment of them but your comment about replaying the early game sure registered: Most of the Civ series, and thus far in my limited experience Stellaris feels that way to me too (tho I am currently deeper into a game than I've ever managed previously)
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:03 PM   #20
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With Civ (and I guess most 4X games) the double whammy of the mid/late game is that the slowdown from increased micromanagement & grind also comes with a reduction/removal of exploration & discovery....the 'wonder & promise' part of the game kinda falls off a cliff and then you're just left to manage the pieces.
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:57 PM   #21
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Black Flag and Odyssey are the the 2 best IMO. I struggled to get into the series until Black Flag. I'd put Odyssey first, but I also love that time period. Origins is really good if you like Egyptian history. I do think the changes to combat and the RPG mechanics that they've added to Odyssey and Orgins has taken the series a step forward.

I'm really looking forward to Valhalla.

Totally agree with this. I did buy Origins on sale but the early game story felt so similar to Odyssey with zero added gameplay and I just couldn’t face the grind so I uninstalled it immediately. So kinda the opposite of this thread I guess?

Odyssey was an incredible game though. Perfect lockdown fodder if you haven’t played it yet as you can get lost in it for weeks even after finishing the main quest.
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:58 PM   #22
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With Civ (and I guess most 4X games) the double whammy of the mid/late game is that the slowdown from increased micromanagement & grind also comes with a reduction/removal of exploration & discovery....the 'wonder & promise' part of the game kinda falls off a cliff and then you're just left to manage the pieces.

And build up your military and go through the drudgery of taking over the cities of each empire.

Battleships and tanks for the win.
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Old 05-26-2020, 05:05 PM   #23
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With Civ (and I guess most 4X games) the double whammy of the mid/late game is that the slowdown from increased micromanagement & grind also comes with a reduction/removal of exploration & discovery....the 'wonder & promise' part of the game kinda falls off a cliff and then you're just left to manage the pieces.

Very this. And the disconnect comes in part, IMO, with the lack of immersion/ attachment to what you built in the early game.

You "care" about various cities/planets/etc but mostly only in the sense of the asset they represent, not .. intrinsically, or whatever.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:45 PM   #24
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Here's an unpopular opinion....SKYRIM!
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:47 PM   #25
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OOTP X.0

Pitching exhustion always kills the game late in the season and especially their dreadful way they handle playoffs/world series. They have never fixed this
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:51 PM   #26
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1. The Movies

Probably would have been great if it just stuck to "The Movies" and stopped trying to be "The Sims: The Movies". Taking care of the actors was what killed the game for me, and the bigger your studio got, the more unmanageable they became. And in-game, if you "wrote" your own movie and it was a dozen scenes, it took like 5 in-game years to make it. Great beginning, but they clearly didn't put much effort into balancing the game during the mid- and late-game parts.

2. Assassin's Creed

The first one. It was great for a few hours, but then for whatever reason I just got bored. Tried several times to get through it, always enjoy the beginning of it, but it just dies for me in the middle. I really enjoyed the second one, though.

3. Most 4X Games

No matter how developers try prevent it, every land and space 4x game I play feels like a race to fill out the world/galaxy. And I love that part of every 4x game. But once the map is filled out, I always get this "okay, what now?" feeling. I know. Destroy my neighbors! But...that never feels as fun as the exploration and expand parts of the 4x games to me. My theory is that those modes in 4x games are more fleshed out and go deeper in design that the "exterminate" (war) part of the games. Battles and wars always feel so shallow in scope compared to the rest of the game.

4. Overlord

Great concept. Right up my alley. Have started the game several times but somewhere along the way I just lose interest and stop playing.

Very nice description.

Totally agree on 4x games. I love the research and exploration. The battles always are just overwhelming and dull simultaneously. And FORGET about multiplayer. It becomes playing against some kid that has quick strategies to rush you before you can do anything.

Overlord yeah. Was a nice variation of Dungeon Keeper...but it really seemed too "Casual Game" to me. And not in a good way.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:58 PM   #27
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I tried playing AC and couldn't enjoy it at all. Uninstalled it within a couple of hours. Are AC2 and the rest of the series worth a try?

If you didn't like it at all, then probably not. I thought AC2 had a much more interesting storyline than the first one, and it gave you more things to do, the fighting was more complex, but it was still more or less the same gameplay.

I don't think I've gotten around to playing ay of them passed AC2, though.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:02 PM   #28
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One of these days I hope I can figure out how to design a Space 4X game where you can still explore and expand after you've 'filled out' your borders. Like in all of the Star Trek series, the Federation's borders are pretty well established with the Klingons and Romulans, but many episodes are still of them exploring some system that has yet to be explored within their border.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:03 PM   #29
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I bounced off of the first Assassin's Creed HARD but kept trying them for some reason, with much the same result....until Black Flag, as Atocep mentioned. I really, really enjoyed that game (largely based on the sea/pirate mechanics that aren't in the previous games, as opposed to refining previous versions' gameplay).
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:08 PM   #30
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Thanks for the info. I may try another one since I got it in a bundle long ago.
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:34 PM   #31
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3. Most 4X Games ... Battles and wars always feel so shallow in scope compared to the rest of the game.

Wasn't / isn't there a game that tried to marry the two fully developed aspects (combat/military + everything else) semi-recently? Like, the last year or two maybe?

But then it kinda got a lukewarm reception for trying to do too much/ displeasing the fans of one or the other by kinda forcing them into dealing with both?

I'm virtually blank on what game I'm thinking of but I'd swear I saw a detailed review on YT of a game that fits this description ... and then never really heard about it again :/

edit to add: My son tells me that the YT I'm thinking of was almost certainly a very early review of Imperator: Rome
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Old 05-26-2020, 11:44 PM   #32
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The most recent Space 4x game I tried playing was Endless Space 2 (release in 2017). I bought it a year ago and played it for 8 minutes. So I'm not sure if that's the game you're talking about or not.
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Old 05-27-2020, 01:27 AM   #33
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Wasn't / isn't there a game that tried to marry the two fully developed aspects (combat/military + everything else) semi-recently? Like, the last year or two maybe?

But then it kinda got a lukewarm reception for trying to do too much/ displeasing the fans of one or the other by kinda forcing them into dealing with both?

I'm virtually blank on what game I'm thinking of but I'd swear I saw a detailed review on YT of a game that fits this description ... and then never really heard about it again :/

edit to add: My son tells me that the YT I'm thinking of was almost certainly a very early review of Imperator: Rome

I believe you are thinking of Field of Glory: Empires which the grand strategy, EU/Imperator Rome offering which integrates with Field of Glory 2 (battle sim engine).

And yeah, I've found the concept fascinating but the reviews have always sounded like something I'd personally hate, so haven't even made it a bored lockdown purchase for me yet. With that being said it does seem to have more positive reviews on Steam recently, so maybe something to look at in the future.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:53 AM   #34
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Abe 100% had a bet with somebody that insisted there was no possible way to come up with a Mount Rushmore that included Sid Meier's SimGolf.
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Old 05-27-2020, 04:48 PM   #35
Abe Sargent
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Spore was SO HYPED! Was ANY of it any good?


The first Shark! Shark was great, for it;s hour of eating and growing and adding body parts. The next chapter was alright with you fighting or befriending the other races, although a bit redundnat in it's 4-5 hour goodness. And then......
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Old 05-27-2020, 04:48 PM   #36
Abe Sargent
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Abe 100% had a bet with somebody that insisted there was no possible way to come up with a Mount Rushmore that included Sid Meier's SimGolf.

That's actually not true!
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:52 PM   #37
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I am surprised to see Assassin's Creed here. Never played it but always felt like a classic
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:13 PM   #38
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One of these days I hope I can figure out how to design a Space 4X game where you can still explore and expand after you've 'filled out' your borders. Like in all of the Star Trek series, the Federation's borders are pretty well established with the Klingons and Romulans, but many episodes are still of them exploring some system that has yet to be explored within their border.
I thought Stellaris started doing a better job of that once they worked harder at capping expansion and making "building up" instead of "building out" more important (along with eliminating hard empire borders, at least early on). Add a very big map and I think you could mimic this some, though it would run into the problems with late game lag, and take too long for the diplomacy options to build up. Maybe if you added in more trading outpost type places where they give a little monetary/resource benefit, but aren't hard tied into your empire/actual rebels, but just kind of there.
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Old 05-27-2020, 08:39 PM   #39
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um....people might hate me for this but I definitely felt like Final Fantasy VII kinda just got lost toward the end. Or rather...I got lost toward the end. It was definitely more grindy and I just felt "Get on with it" and never did find the last bits because I got sick of it

Baldur's Gate likewise.

And Diablo 2
and Path of Exile / Diablo 3 with their regurgiting setup of doing things over and over again is so boring.

I guess many RPGs suffer from fatigue. The stories always feel just padded with combats just to increase your level.

I guess that's jsut a mark of the genre

just as adding combat to 4x stretches it out as well.

I wholeheartedly agree that the research and development
parts are the fun parts and the combats are just boring and make it less fun
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:01 PM   #40
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I thought Stellaris started doing a better job of that once they worked harder at capping expansion and making "building up" instead of "building out" more important (along with eliminating hard empire borders, at least early on). Add a very big map and I think you could mimic this some, though it would run into the problems with late game lag, and take too long for the diplomacy options to build up. Maybe if you added in more trading outpost type places where they give a little monetary/resource benefit, but aren't hard tied into your empire/actual rebels, but just kind of there.

I'm having a very weird relationship with Stellaris right now. I'm console, so it's just up to the 2.2 patch (?) that redid the planet management part into districts,etc.

On the one hand, the early early game felt glacial to me compared to the previous ... yet I find myself farther into a game - and still competitive at worst - than I managed in any previous attempt. And that's despite neither understanding particular well nor particularly liking the population management changes.

I'm kinda encouraged by that, although there's definitely some midgame (at least I think that's where I am) spans of doing a lot of nothing.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:07 PM   #41
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and Ultima IV was groundbreaking and so fun...but the last dungeon was HORRIBLE

took forever! and if you guess the final answer wrong it sends you back to the top.
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Old 05-27-2020, 09:20 PM   #42
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With Stellaris, I still just expand ASAP. They try to throw up some road blocks, but they're more like speed bumps. I think when they moved to only having space lanes, it actually made it much easier to expand quickly. And it seems like the AI empires make a concerted effort to expand quickly as well, so it still ends up being a race. At least that how my games always seem to play out.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:21 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sabotai
3. Most 4X Games

No matter how developers try prevent it, every land and space 4x game I play feels like a race to fill out the world/galaxy. And I love that part of every 4x game. But once the map is filled out, I always get this "okay, what now?" feeling. I know. Destroy my neighbors! But...that never feels as fun as the exploration and expand parts of the 4x games to me. My theory is that those modes in 4x games are more fleshed out and go deeper in design that the "exterminate" (war) part of the games. Battles and wars always feel so shallow in scope compared to the rest of the game.

My theory is that you and others who are in agreement here probably just aren't as interested in the combat in general, which is something very different. Have you tried The Last Federation? Not a 4X but I'm wondering if the whole endgame approach in that, uniting the solar system by whatever means not necessarily combat, might be more to your liking.

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Old 05-28-2020, 09:24 AM   #44
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I love land grabbing in Civ but then you have to manage.

I think my biggest issue with the Civs right now is that you can set up well and hours in realize you aren't going to win. It's kinda of a bummer.

I also vouch Skyrim like it's preceding games gets a little too long in the tooth, you just lose sight of the end game or what it is.

That being said my first game of Morrowwind is still my greatest experience, I didn't know what I was doing, I didn't know where I was going but damn it was all beautiful and dangerous.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:26 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by thesloppy View Post
I feel like Civilization, in alll its various flavors, is the game that defines this type, for me personally. I dunno if I've ever finished a game of Civ in the last 20 years, but I've certainly started a few thousand.

I have finished games but it is definitely my top pick. Love the first half of the game but the end is such a slog.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:39 AM   #46
henry296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwikshot View Post
I think my biggest issue with the Civs right now is that you can set up well and hours in realize you aren't going to win. It's kinda of a bummer.


I think regardless by the mid-point of most of my Civ games, I know if I'm going to win or lose. If i get the tech lead, I'm good. If not, it is hard to make it up in the late game.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:27 PM   #47
RainMaker
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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I feel like adding more movement at the end of the game would make things better. Like modern military should move at lightning speed to get from one side of a continent to the other. But in Civ it moves at the same speed my ancient warriors did.

Think this would make it more exciting and be realistic. Plus if you are losing at the end, you can start a war awfully quick instead of having to wait 25 turns to get your military to another continent.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:42 PM   #48
Warhammer
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by RainMaker View Post
I feel like adding more movement at the end of the game would make things better. Like modern military should move at lightning speed to get from one side of a continent to the other. But in Civ it moves at the same speed my ancient warriors did.

Think this would make it more exciting and be realistic. Plus if you are losing at the end, you can start a war awfully quick instead of having to wait 25 turns to get your military to another continent.

Don't forget the time frame of each turn changes dramatically. It might have taken your warriors 25 years to go a hex, whereas in later turns it might be just a year.
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