Soccer Thread 2014-15

[dacman]

Yeah, I was pissed at Belser initially too -- but then saw the list of interested teams -- Norwich, Crystal Palace, Fulham, Sunderland, either Frieburg or 'gladbach (depending which rumor you believe) plus a few "others." (and if they're not named, you can likely guess they are lesser teams than the ones mentioned). Not terribly impressed -- teams likely to struggle or are already not top flight. Doesn't seem so bad a move now.

[Neuqua]

Trying to decide whether to go to the Liverpool - Olympiacos "International Champions Cup" game at Soldier Field on Sunday. Hard to pass up a chance to watch Gerrard play live as his career winds down.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm with Easy Mac for the first reason he stated - Zuzi and Besler are both 27. They'll be 31 in 2018. Zuzi shouldn't be playing for us in the World Cup then, and Besler may more likely be coming off the bench. It's not a big deal that they stay in the US. Now, if Besler was 22, like... Yedlin. Staying the US may be a bigger deal - and once again that does depend on which teams are interested.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

At no point in the letter does he even use the word "comfortable".

I guess he should apologize to all of you for not being the player that YOU think he should be, never mind making his childhood dream of playing in front of the fans of his hometown come true.

As though going to Europe is going to wave some magic wand and all of a sudden make him 50% better. It really doesn't work that way. We've sent players to Europe, and frankly I haven't seen the improvement yet. Most just rot on the bench, while the ones that do play, play to about their level they were already around (Altidore, Donovan, Dempsey, Howard, Freidel, Keller all come to mind).

Whatever. You obviously get my point, so don't get all literal on me because I chose to put in quotes a word that he didn't explicitly use. He talked about seeing family and friends and what-not in the stands, to me that's a pretty clear stand-in for feeling "at home" or "comfortable."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Ehh, Beslar and Zusi are 27. They almost certainly won't be in the plans for 2018.

This is relevant.

[flere-imsaho]

27-31 are prime years for central defenders... or so FM has taught me.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Big announcement in advance of the Champions Shield game tonight. New $75M US National Training Facility to be built in Kansas City. Lamar Hunt is grinning ear to ear somewhere right now.

Governor Brownback joins officials in announcing U.S. Soccer National Training Center in Kansas City | Sporting Kansas City

[ISiddiqui]

It appears that DaMarcus Beasley is coming back home from Mexico. Houston Dynamo sign him after dealing with Toronto for #1 in the allocation order (Toronto already had 3 DPs)

Houston Dynamo trades with Toronto FC, clearing way to acquire DaMarcus Beasley - The Washington Post

[rowech]

Looking at the results last night, I wonder why I don't want our best players playing in the MLS.

[Easy Mac]

Not having watched the game, I am a bit puzzled by your reasoning.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

Looking at the results last night, I wonder why I don't want our best players playing in the MLS.

Looking at your comment, I'm pretty sure you didn't watch any of the games or look to see how much the MLS starters even played, if at all.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Not having watched the game, I am a bit puzzled by your reasoning.

The best teams in the MLS are relegation level in the EPL. Our best players aren't getting anything out of playing here.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Looking at your comment, I'm pretty sure you didn't watch any of the games or look to see how much the MLS starters even played, if at all.

Soccer is soccer. It's embarrassing that people think what is taking place in the MLS is any good. I continually watch and don't think it is much better than watching good college teams.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

Soccer is soccer. It's embarrassing that people think what is taking place in the MLS is any good. I continually watch and don't think it is much better than watching good college teams.

I'll take that as a no.

[flere-imsaho]

If you love soccer and want it to grow in the United States and want the USMNT to become more competitive, the MLS is still a good thing.

Developing talent from MLS-level to WC-level is what we've been arguing about here and yes, I'm in the camp that believes that our top players need to be playing against tougher opposition than the MLS if USMNT is to become more competitive.

But don't discount the importance of growing soccer as a whole. A very key element of this is getting more kids into the game so more talent can be discovered and stay in soccer as opposed to our other 4 (or more) major sports.

The potential here is huge. Of the five largest countries by population only the U.S. (#3 at 318M) and Brazil (#5 at 202M) are reasonably competitive at soccer. The other quarterfinalists are Germany (#16 at 80M) and Argentina (#32 at 42M).

Besides raw population, the U.S. already clearly has the infrastructure to introduce kids to the game, with blanket pre-school coverage leading into a situation where the game rivals basketball for the most played sport for youth 6-18 (Source). (Note: It shouldn't be surprising that both sports require very little in equipment to play.)

What the MLS does is increase interest in playing, which diverts more kids to the sport, which increases the likelihood of finding elite-level talent. But that talent still needs to be nurtured properly, both to get to MLS level (our college system probably does OK here) and then to get to WC-level (we don't do this well).

So, the MLS is not all bad.

[dacman]

The ManU 2nd teamers ran riot over the Galaxy 2nd teamers. No real surprise for me -- I'd argue this is the real significant difference now in EPL vs. MLS. The first teamers on most MLS teams, while certainly not to the level of the top EPL teams, are quite respectable, but the dropoff in talent to the 2nd tier guys is rather large in the MLS, and almost nil in the EPL.

If you think the level of play in MLS now is the same as a good college team - you haven't watched a minute of either.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by rowech

The best teams in the MLS are relegation level in the EPL. Our best players aren't getting anything out of playing here.

Originally Posted by rowech

Soccer is soccer.

These 2 statements don't seem to jibe together.

[rowech]

The MLS has value but not for our best players. I like a model that brings the guys back when they are Dempsey's age. Dempsey isn't going to grow as a player anymore.

If Besler is going to play defensive positions, doesn't it make sense to get him into foreign leagues to face better offensive players? What will he gain by going against the scorers in MLS? Same with Bradley as it pains me he's back in MLS.

I think our offensive players do have to find a little bit more in terms of being on a decent team. Altidore's season was wasted last year since nobody around him was really anything great.

The only thing in bringing guys back is that it does help sell the sport by having the star power but only to a point. The league needs to have a star player in every city to really grow and there aren't enough of those go around.

[flere-imsaho]

On the topic of star players, I guess I don't see the problem with bringing in big names who want to "cash out" before retirement to generate this star power. Like him or not, the presence of Beckham raised the profile of the MLS a lot.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

On the topic of star players, I guess I don't see the problem with bringing in big names who want to "cash out" before retirement to generate this star power. Like him or not, the presence of Beckham raised the profile of the MLS a lot.

I think he definitely did as some of the guys here now and some of the ones coming soon. It would still be nice for the MLS to somehow get one of these guys in their prime.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by rowech

It would still be nice for the MLS to somehow get one of these guys in their prime.

It would be great, but also unlikely. Neymar isn't going to pick Portugal or Holland's top division.

[whomario]

Another problem is that the salary cap makes it highly unattractive for mid level players and the out-of-the-way nature as well as the unattractive international fictures make it unattractive for young international prospects. (it´s not like the dutch or portuguese league where you can go, get PT and exposure in continental play and then be on the radar of the big clubs)

The other big sport leagues (NHL, NBA, NFL, MLS) have the advantage of having been the best leagues (and sometimes the only real leagues) in the world for a long time.

If you are behind the curve, it is tough to catch up. Only way to attract anybody of note is by throwing money or exposure around and in a sport where both can be had a plenty around the globe, this generally only applies to players who had their say on the global stage and are ready for a new experience or a nice retirement-package.

So it seems to me, that the only way MLS will improve is by offering more money to midlevel talent from central america or maybe south america, then try whatever it can to develop homegrown talent.
Which is obviously in competition with the goal of having individual players improve their game against better competition elsewhere.

And no, i can´t believe that College is comparable to the european system (not to mention 17,18 year old regularly training with the senior squad or playing against veterans in the lower divisions on loan or with the B team). This works for the Basketball because of a combination of the high number of players playing the sport from a young age and the comparatively benign youth setups (compared to the top level soccer clubs) in international basketball, don´t really see it working in soccer in comparison. Especially not for the absolute top flight talents who just get challenged way more in Europe.

In short, i just don´t think there is an easy way to do this. All the US can do is try what it can and improve little by little. There is no one with a magic wand out there making it all better. That does not mean the league should not strive to improve or for the US federation to abandon it, just that it is very likely that it will not be the factor that will suddenly raise the USMNT to another level in the next 4, 8 or even 12 years.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by whomario

In short, i just don´t think there is an easy way to do this. All the US can do is try what it can and improve little by little.

I do agree with this.

However, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the MLS were allowed to be "free market" as, say, European leagues are, and if then you'd see very rich owners buy up teams in popular cities and try to stuff them with superstars. Of course, that probably wouldn't help U.S. talent as they'd not be able to get a game (much similar to the problem in England), but it would be interesting.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

If you love soccer and want it to grow in the United States and want the USMNT to become more competitive, the MLS is still a good thing.

Developing talent from MLS-level to WC-level is what we've been arguing about here and yes, I'm in the camp that believes that our top players need to be playing against tougher opposition than the MLS if USMNT is to become more competitive.

But don't discount the importance of growing soccer as a whole. A very key element of this is getting more kids into the game so more talent can be discovered and stay in soccer as opposed to our other 4 (or more) major sports.

The potential here is huge. Of the five largest countries by population only the U.S. (#3 at 318M) and Brazil (#5 at 202M) are reasonably competitive at soccer. The other quarterfinalists are Germany (#16 at 80M) and Argentina (#32 at 42M).

Besides raw population, the U.S. already clearly has the infrastructure to introduce kids to the game, with blanket pre-school coverage leading into a situation where the game rivals basketball for the most played sport for youth 6-18 (Source). (Note: It shouldn't be surprising that both sports require very little in equipment to play.)

What the MLS does is increase interest in playing, which diverts more kids to the sport, which increases the likelihood of finding elite-level talent. But that talent still needs to be nurtured properly, both to get to MLS level (our college system probably does OK here) and then to get to WC-level (we don't do this well).

So, the MLS is not all bad.

100% agree with everything you've said here.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I do agree with this.

However, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the MLS were allowed to be "free market" as, say, European leagues are, and if then you'd see very rich owners buy up teams in popular cities and try to stuff them with superstars. Of course, that probably wouldn't help U.S. talent as they'd not be able to get a game (much similar to the problem in England), but it would be interesting.

Welcome to the NASL .

And I think everything whomario said was right on, and I think the ownership of MLS has been doing this. Moving forward little by little. Not taking on too much at once. Learning all the lessons of NASL (sometimes too much). I expect the salary cap to rise due to the new TV deal, but not ridiculously much.

[whomario]

Also, regarding the James transfer: Real makes ridicolous sums of money from jersey sales each time they get a new star. Apparently, they have already sold 350000 jerseys of James since the transfer. No idea how much of the money from each jersey makes its way back to Real, but on paper that is about a third of the transfer fee in money already.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Welcome to the NASL .

OK, good point. And I merely said it would be interesting, not that it would be good or sustainable.

[path12]

Without getting into the specific arguments of who should or shouldn't be playing/staying in MLS, the fact that this thread at least has MLS detours from the usual all Europe talk is encouraging.

And though no one asked, my hot take is that yes, it is a benefit to MLS and US soccer in general to have the quality of play steadily improve. However, it hasn't improved enough yet to let young stars develop to their full potential without spending time in the top three/four Europe leagues.

So yeah, I love watching DeAndre Yedlin regularly but he needs to go overseas. Besler/Zusi in their mid-late 20's though? Stay in MLS baby. Grow the product.

[TroyF]

Arsenal sign Chambers from Southhampton (at least it is being reported) as well as Ospina at the keeper spot.

Rumor still out there that they are looking for another midfielder as well, with Vermalean headed out (ManU seem to be the most likely spot)

Strange offseason for Arsenal. 90% of the transfer dealings dusted before the first match. The team is as deep as I've seen it in a long, long time. I know people will say we need another striker, but I think Sanchez can play that role to spell Giroud more. Hoping Sanogo or Campbell can spell them some against certain teams.

[Galaxy]

Ran into Dick's Sporting Goods yesterday...first time I've seen a national and well-known retail chain selling European club jerseys (Manchester clubs, Liverpool, Chelsea, and I think one of the big two Spanish clubs, ect.) in a big display. Was kind of interesting.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by path12

So yeah, I love watching DeAndre Yedlin regularly but he needs to go overseas. Besler/Zusi in their mid-late 20's though? Stay in MLS baby. Grow the product.

Indeed. I think there should be a different expectation for US players going to Europe based on age. Stars who are 26 or younger, go to Europe. 27 and older, stay in the MLS. It would help both the USMNT and MLS.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by rowech

Hate seeing American players continue to believe MLS is good enough to get our best players to raise their game in their prime years. The MLS is not a top league yet has more teams than any major league. How watered down must it be?

I wish the MLS would go to a regulation-type system and eliminate the salary cap.

Originally Posted by rowech

The best teams in the MLS are relegation level in the EPL. Our best players aren't getting anything out of playing here.

I didn't think the best teams were EPL relegation level. I figured mid-tier Championship league at best. One good thing about the MLS is they are investing in young academies that can help find and develop young talent a much higher level.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I wish the MLS would go to a regulation-type system and eliminate the salary cap.

Neither will ever happen.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I didn't think the best teams were EPL relegation level. I figured mid-tier Championship league at best. One good thing about the MLS is they are investing in young academies that can help find and develop young talent a much higher level.

I'd say the MLS is around Championship level at present in the main, its hard to judge however as its far more 'hit-miss' than most other leagues because of its nature with regards to 'star' signings.

(ie. you've got some League 1/2 standard players mixed in with others who definitely don't/wouldn't look out of place in the Premiership)

I think its a good league and its definitely continually improving as is the profile of soccer within the US, I can see a day when the US national team is very competitive for sure ... with the MLS I think it will also, although its geographical abstraction from the holy-grail of the European Champions League will prove an obstacle in that regard*.

*gut instinct says if the league/US interest gets big enough EUFA will find a way to give them a 'guest' spot

[ISiddiqui]

I'd argue that before that happens (EUFA invite), CONMEBOL will expand its tourney and host a joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF tourney, especially if the Century one in 2016 does well.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Neither will ever happen.

I know. I just cannot get into the MLS at all.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The potential here is huge. Of the five largest countries by population only the U.S. (#3 at 318M) and Brazil (#5 at 202M) are reasonably competitive at soccer. The other quarterfinalists are Germany (#16 at 80M) and Argentina (#32 at 42M).

Besides raw population, the U.S. already clearly has the infrastructure to introduce kids to the game, with blanket pre-school coverage leading into a situation where the game rivals basketball for the most played sport for youth 6-18 (Source). (Note: It shouldn't be surprising that both sports require very little in equipment to play.)

What the MLS does is increase interest in playing, which diverts more kids to the sport, which increases the likelihood of finding elite-level talent. But that talent still needs to be nurtured properly, both to get to MLS level (our college system probably does OK here) and then to get to WC-level (we don't do this well).

So, the MLS is not all bad.

The real issue is competition for athletes with MLB, NFL, and NBA, to a lesser extent NHL. We do have a large population, but we have a lot more sports than soccer competing for those star athletes. No matter how many kids play soccer, until soccer salaries are competitive, most kids that are athletes are going to try for a future in one of the other sports.

A start is getting salaries competitive enough that you're pulling the athletes that don't quite make it in those sports, if they had soccer exposure at a younger age.

But we are seeing some of the growth mentioned here. We are starting to see non-college options for soccer - the local NASL club, the Carolina Railhawks, sponsor a U-23 club, for example.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I know. I just cannot get into the MLS at all.

I guess I just don't understand why either are THAT important.

The MLS is a new league, existing in an American context. Relegation and Salary caps will only kill the league here and are in no way essential to enjoy the sport.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I'd say the MLS is around Championship level at present in the main, its hard to judge however as its far more 'hit-miss' than most other leagues because of its nature with regards to 'star' signings.

(ie. you've got some League 1/2 standard players mixed in with others who definitely don't/wouldn't look out of place in the Premiership)

I think this is spot on, but I hate the hipsterish "I won't watch it because it's not Premiership quality". It's not an either/or type of situation - you can support an MLS team and watch EPL/UCL too - and no one from the "pro-MLS" side is arguing that they're on that level.

The idea that people know exactly what's best for player development cracks me up. I coach kids from age 9-22 and I can tell you there's no blanket formula, and it can be hard to predict even for kids you've coached for 5+ years. Different people react differently to different situations - some improve more being aggressively challenged vs. better players, some improve more being one of the best on the field - and it can even change for each kid. The most important thing is internal drive, and I think the Tim Howard's, Clint Dempsey's and Michael Bradley's of the world would be fine anywhere.

I also do think there is a bias against MLS (and American) players. Landon Donovan was the same player here in MLS and for the USMNT for 12 years, and it was only a couple quick stints in Europe that made people acknowledge he was very good. Beckham showed he was able to play over here and then return to UCL level competition with no drop-off in skill level. Clint Dempsey and Tim Howard could have the same exact skill level, but if they'd only played in MLS plenty of people would argue they couldn't cut it in the premiership. DeAndre Yedlin has some obvious physical attributes, but he's really only considered a better prospect than the other 23 guys on this list (and add Omar Salgado, Dominic Dwyer, Erick Torres etc) who needs to move to Europe ASAP because he had 1.5 good games at the World Cup. Would all of them had played great if they got that same chance? No (and some aren't eligible for us), but I'm sure at least a few would have. Going forward some of them would develop better in Europe, some would develop worse in Europe, most would develop about the same on either side of the pond, and on balance MLS is just fine for developing those players at this point in their career. If a player's around 24 or younger and the best player at his position in the league, he should absolutely go to a bigger league for the bigger payday is nothing else, but there's nothing preventing anyone from becoming an all-world player in MLS if they have the skills and the drive.

To cross-over sports, MLS is basically the Cuban baseball league, which has superstars and some guys who would struggle to play above Single A ball in the US. Yet you still have players like Yasiel Puig and Jose Abreu who are able to step off that island and dominate MLB from Day 1. Expand it to Nippon, which is probably closer to AA/AAA level, and you've got your Ichiro's, Darvish's, Tanaka's and Uehara's

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I wish the MLS would go to a regulation-type system and eliminate the salary cap.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Neither will ever happen.

Well, I'd argue the MLS already did the first when they got rid of shootouts

[Critch]

Early in the season, but Tom Huddlestone already in with a good chance of miss of the season in Hull City's Europa League game v AC Trencin tonight:



Would be better without the dickhead's face at the end of it.

[whomario]

German team won the U19 Euros last night, highly deserved 1:0 over Portugal (could have easily been 4:0), very impressive showing and there were a few sure-fire 1st division players missing (with Meyer and Goretzka already having been in the preliminary senior WC squad) and the team met up very shortly before the tournament (and a few players even only arriving for the 2nd game) due to wanting to have them do as much as possible of their clubs preseason.

Highly impressed by them going with a 4-1-4-1 with 5 mainly offensive players and both wingbacks high up the pitch.

[AlexB]

Man City play Olympiakos tonight in Minnesota, and the pitch looks to be a real problem.

TCF Bank Stadium first: Grass surface being installed for soccer match | Star Tribune

They've laid a membrane over the astroturf and laid natural turf over that as a temporary field. This might just be the most Heath Robinson thing I've ever heard about a major stadium football pitch, and IMHO a really bad idea.

Although they say they used a deeper sod than normal, there will be no depth of soil or roots, and the surface will be inherently unstable.

Best case is that because the players won't have confidence in the pitch, the game will be played at half pace. Worst case is that the players find confidence and play 100%, which will mean the turf just rips up creating a pitch that you can't pass on, and/or there will be knee/ankle injuries

I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't see this working out well.

On the other hand, there is no way I would have been bothered by this game in other circumstances, but as it is live on TV here I will be tuning in now to see how this pans out, so to a certain extent the PR is working on me

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by whomario

Highly impressed by them going with a 4-1-4-1 with 5 mainly offensive players and both wingbacks high up the pitch.

So you're saying it's not just the A squad playing successful attacking football, but it also works for the youth teams? (Fwiw, I saw pieces of that game and Germany to me too looked like an attacking team, despite that 4-1-4-1 sounds like a defensive approach.)

In a way that's ironic for those with Oranje tainted glasses. For over a decade all I hear is how we should look at Germany and Italy for their successful defensive playing styles, yet by the time we adopt the defensive playing style, people moan about our defensive team and how Germany blows the world away with the old fashioned score more goals mentality. Ironically, since WC2006, Germany has been far and beyond the team to root for when Oranje isn't playing, despite the rivalry.

[whomario]

But since the A team actually took a step back from that ideal in Brazil, that should help a little (they basically played a No8 instead of a No10 and the 2 wing backs were much more defensive than previously, even when Lahm switched to RB)

But yeah, the irony is significant

Of course it always depends on how you interpret a tactic (you can play an offensive 5-4-1 or a defensive 3-4-3), but that U19 tactic was definitely offensive minded with 2 attacking wingers and basically two No10 players with major leeway to roam around.
Heck, even the lone No6 was not exactly playing an anchor man role.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, for American soccer fans, an MLS game is actually on BROADCAST Television today and it isn't the MLS Cup Final. NBC is showing the LA Galaxy and the Portland Timbers at 2:30pm EST.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, for American soccer fans, an MLS game is actually on BROADCAST Television today and it isn't the MLS Cup Final. NBC is showing the LA Galaxy and the Portland Timbers at 2:30pm EST.

thanks for reminding me, i would have thought the game came on tonight and would have missed it. MLS.com does a good job of telling you about nationally televised games, but i never look at the game time

[The Jackal]

Happy to be able to watch Arsenal/Benfica today on ESPN3. Sanogo broke his Arsenal cherry and bagged four goals, but looked like he might have tweaked a hammy. Campbell looked quite good as well, scoring a strong volley off a Bellerin cross (who seems a heck of an attacking fullback but leaves some to be desired defensively).

Alexis came on near the end and the crowd went nuts. He danced around some, looked generally threatening, and setup either Coq or Akpom and they really should have scored.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Sanogo broke his Arsenal cherry and bagged four goals, but looked like he might have tweaked a hammy.

Yup - sounds like an Arsenal player to me*

*Fantastic for the 4 days each season that they're fit

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yup - sounds like an Arsenal player to me*

*Fantastic for the 4 days each season that they're fit

I hadn't realized we led the EPL in injuries last year, but I'm not surprised. Pretty encouraged by the depth this year if Campbell doesn't get loaned out .. I guess I'm counting Diaby as depth, really feel sorry for that guy.

Could definitely use one more central defender, definitely if Vermaelen leaves.

And I'm not going to get greedy, but if Arsene really wants to nab Khedira that'd be fine - although a holding mid like Carvalho would be amazing.