Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[molson]

Originally Posted by Telle

Yeah I'm not one to jump in and say that this case would have been handled 100% different if Martin had been white. But I think at the same time you can't say that none of the law enforcement personnel had any thoughts that may have been colored by race. Thus I neither agree with those who say that the shooter would have been immediately arrested for murder if Martin had been white, nor with those who say that it's ridiculous to say the police or prosecutors might have racist inclinations.

So I think it's important to keep a close eye on any and all racial implications of this case, without necessarily accusing any individual involved with the case of acting improperly thus far.

I think that's fair.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Well, now you're talking about what the public perception is and I 100% agree - the coverage/opinions of this case is completely different depending on the age/gender/race of the shooter/victim involved. I feel comfortable making that general statement, but I would be reluctant to take any random person and say, "well, you're only upset about this case because the victim is black, and this is your chance to make some political points," unless I actually had some other independent reason to suspect that was the case with that particular person. It would be totally ridiculous to go up to some stranger and make those kinds of accusations based on nothing more than the fact that he's upset by this case. And I think that's basically what people are doing when they see an end result and assume that everyone involved from the law-enforcement end made racially-based decisions. And like I said, maybe that's the burden of the government, and that's fair game, I just think it's worth acknowledging. Those are real people too, the majority of which are dedicated public servants who are not racist.

Again, I don't think everyone involved is a racist. I do think race plays a role in this. Unless there is some secret evidence the police is sitting on, I see absolutely no reason why Zimmerman shouldn't be arrested. I don't care if the kid is black, white, Asian, or whatever. And for the record, I was one of the people who wasn't convinced early that Zimmerman was the racist everyone made him out to be. I think he's more likely an overzelous tough guy who took a neighborhood watch job far too seriously.

But when it comes to the police, when it comes to listening to this "self-defense" story, none of it adds up. I honestly feel if this was a 17 year old white kid from the neighborhood, Zimmerman would have been arrested. That doesn't make the cops racist, it just means there is this belief that because he was black, he must be up to no good. That there had to be something else going on when none of the evidence points that way. It still comes down to a kid with no criminal record walking home unarmed ending up dead by an adult male twice his size stalking him.

Stereotypes don't make someone racist. Looking at an Asian kid and assuming he's good at math isn't racist in my book. Ignorant? Perhaps. But I expect the police to look past those stereotypes and treat individuals equally. There is no scenario I can see where self-defense comes into play here. The kid was committing no crime and was unarmed. He shouldn't be dead.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Havok

He's a short fat guy from all accounts. I'm 5'10, 185 former athlete myself and i workout out 4 times a week. I would destroy a 5'4 285 lbs slob in seconds.

You never know what that 5'4" 285 lbs slob knows.........

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Yes they are. Molson understands the point which apparently escaped you in your emotions. Any one of us can be pissed off at what happened (I can't stand the likes of Zimmerman) but that's irrelevant in the charges and prosecution that might apply and the defense of such. John Adams defended the redcoats after the Boston Massacre for a very good reason, while his cousin and other revengers were calling for their heads.

I'm well aware of that story. John Adams was a hero for defending those men, but he would've been even if they were guilty. You seem to be operating in some black and white world where people can't support defendant rights while still being pissed that it looks like this guy will get away with murder.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by King of New York

And the Florida legislator who sponsored the bill has stated quite clearly that he did not intend it to cover behavior such as Zimmerman's: "As the prime sponsor of this legislation in the Florida House, I'd like to clarify that there is nothing in the law that provides for the opportunity to pursue and confront individuals. It simply lets those who would be victims use force in self-defense." If the guy who wrote the bill says that Stand Your Ground does not apply, then I think it is safe to say that Zimmerman's actions do not constitute self-defense--surely the appellate courts will be good strict constructionists and use the legislator's intent when ruling on the law.

LOL. Seriously?????

He's a politician, hoping to get re-elected and/or move on to bigger and better things. What do you expect the guy who wrote the bill to say??? "Way to go! I meant for my law to be used so that unarmed 17-year-olds could be shot and killed with impunity!!!" Or maybe "My bad!!! We didn't think about this sort of case when we crafted this law! Oops!!!!"

No, the reality is that he has zero political future unless he can distance himself and his law from this mess as much as possible. Of *course* he's going to make this claim.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya could be, I may be too reluctant to see things as 1st degree murder, too reluctant to find that pre-meditation - I just see a world of difference between the typical 1st degree murder v. tragedies like this....but the end result is ultimately the same for the families of both so I get that too. I may be too forgiving generally, of the killings that take place in these chaotic, unexpected situations - it's just an entirely different category to me. I've never been a situation like that, but I've read enough about them, heard their testimony, etc, who knows what we would do in those situations, what our breaking point would be. Normal, non-criminal people don't initiate and commit murders, but when we find ourselves in a street fight (even if we started it), or someone breaks into our house, how can we judge that exactly the same as the clear premediated killer?

I'm getting my law knowledge from Law and Order, but isn't it still murder if someone dies because of a felony he committed...regardless of what the felony is?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm getting my law knowledge from Law and Order, but isn't it still murder if someone dies because of a felony he committed...regardless of what the felony is?

I also got my law degree from the University of Law and Order, as well as studying for a few semesters at the The Wire University of Maryland. I believe that is referred to as "Felony Murder".

Felony murder rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

You never know what that 5'4" 285 lbs slob knows.........

SUMO TECHNIQUE ROKU!!!!!!

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

LOL. Seriously?????

He's a politician, hoping to get re-elected and/or move on to bigger and better things. What do you expect the guy who wrote the bill to say??? "Way to go! I meant for my law to be used so that unarmed 17-year-olds could be shot and killed with impunity!!!" Or maybe "My bad!!! We didn't think about this sort of case when we crafted this law! Oops!!!!"

No, the reality is that he has zero political future unless he can distance himself and his law from this mess as much as possible. Of *course* he's going to make this claim.

Seriously. His motivations for making the statement, and the accuracy of the statement, are two different issues. I was not aware that every self-serving statement is, by virtue of being self-serving, a lie.

[Matthean]

They might want to rethink how they are advertising the movie.

[JediKooter]

I guess the thing I'm still scratching my head reagrding a few details on this (and I have not really read much about this)...if it was a gated community, how did the kid get in? He hop over the gate or did his friends buzz him in? Or did he live in that gated community? If he lived there, then shouldn't Eagle Eye Zimmerman know who the kid was? And if the kid didn't live there and had been there before, I ask again: shouldn't Eagle Eye Zimmerman know the kid or at least have seen him before?

I know that if someone came at me in a threatening way and was not a cop or security, my defenses would have went up and any threatening move towards me, I would start swinging. I don't know who that person is, I don't know what that persons plans are or anything. All I know is, some stranger is coming at me. It's fight or flight. I'm probably fighting since I'm in a gated community and I don't have anywhere to run.

All I can say is, strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I guess the thing I'm still scratching my head reagrding a few details on this (and I have not really read much about this)...if it was a gated community, how did the kid get in? He hop over the gate or did his friends buzz him in? Or did he live in that gated community? If he lived there, then shouldn't Eagle Eye Zimmerman know who the kid was? And if the kid didn't live there and had been there before, I ask again: shouldn't Eagle Eye Zimmerman know the kid or at least have seen him before?

I know that if someone came at me in a threatening way and was not a cop or security, my defenses would have went up and any threatening move towards me, I would start swinging. I don't know who that person is, I don't know what that persons plans are or anything. All I know is, some stranger is coming at me. It's fight or flight. I'm probably fighting since I'm in a gated community and I don't have anywhere to run.

All I can say is, strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.

I thought that he and his dad were visiting his dad's girlfriend.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and I think I'd like to post this here...

Incompatible Browser | Facebook

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I thought that he and his dad were visiting his dad's girlfriend.

Ah ok. So he wasn't a 'stranger' there then and Mr. Neighborhood Watch, the ever so vigilant, defender of opened windows and garage doors, didn't ask some simple questions...who are you and who are you visiting? Maybe Trayvon gave him some lip (I probably would have too) and that pissed Zimmerman off. In all honesty, I'm sometimes kind of jerk to people who question me when they are obviously not any kind of authority figure. If I'm asked who I am and what am I doing here, I answer them with the exact same question, since you are just as much of a stranger to me as I am to you.

There's a very apparent big gap of facts that have not been publicized, so it is very hard to say 100% who was at fault and what exactly happened here. All I know is, a teenager is dead, a dad lost his son and I don't feel any safer with people like Zimmerman in my nieghborhood.


That was a good facebook post. I tend to forget that I'm here in California and stuff like that does happen here, just probably not at the same frequency as it does in the South, so I think it gets pushed to the back of my mind. My best friend, since Junior high, is black and even in "liberal" Southern California, he occasionally gets a DWB. I just don't get it, but, I'm white so I'm not sure if I'm supposed to get it. All I know is, it's screwed up.

[Autumn]

Thanks for posting that, Ben. That's important.

[molson]

I've been really curious about what Martin said to the police, since that could be the thing that hangs him or helps defend him, and it looks like that there's a little more on that out there now. With all the 911 calls (including the gunshot being captured on one of them, and someone screaming for 20 seconds or so), they'll be able to nail down to the second a lot of the events. Also new (at least to me), is that they did take him to the police station for questioning, so he probably made a lot more statements.

Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun - Yahoo!

"George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him."

"The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested."

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by molson

I've been really curious about what Martin said to the police, since that could be the thing that hangs him or helps defend him, and it looks like that there's a little more on that out there now. With all the 911 calls (including the gunshot being captured on one of them, and someone screaming for 20 seconds or so), they'll be able to nail down to the second a lot of the events. Also new (at least to me), is that they did take him to the police station for questioning, so he probably made a lot more statements.

Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun - Yahoo!

"George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him."

"The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested."

I for one expect pictures of the "injuries" to be released when they can be...and if the police did not take pictures of Zimmermans "injuries" then by all means it opens the door for more questions.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

I've been really curious about what Martin said to the police, since that could be the thing that hangs him or helps defend him, and it looks like that there's a little more on that out there now. With all the 911 calls (including the gunshot being captured on one of them, and someone screaming for 20 seconds or so), they'll be able to nail down to the second a lot of the events. Also new (at least to me), is that they did take him to the police station for questioning, so he probably made a lot more statements.

Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun - Yahoo!

"George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.

Zimmerman had claimed he had called police about Martin, whom he found suspicious, then went back to his car when Martin attacked him, punching him."

"The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He was not arrested."

So Zimmerman left his car, then made his call, and went back to his car? Martin punched him somewhere outside of his car, and could tell that Zimmerman had a gun (since he tried to take the gun). Sounds like a strange man (not an officer) approached Martin with a gun. Sounds like Martin may have stood his ground. Doesn't that still make Zimmerman the aggressor?

[Qrusher14242]

yeah, everything i've read is that Zimmerman was the aggressor and Martin just defended him from a stalker with a gun. Why did Zimmerman even approach him??

[bhlloy]

And I guess that goes back to my real problem with a law of this kind. Other than in an obvious cold blooded contract style killing, how do you ever prove that somebody wasn't feeling threatened by somebody else? I shoot my wife's lover, well he was threatening to kick my ass so I shot him. How can you prove differently?

I understand the intent but it just seems so open ended that you could drive a truck through. Hence all the politicians hastily backtracking since this happened

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Seriously. His motivations for making the statement, and the accuracy of the statement, are two different issues. I was not aware that every self-serving statement is, by virtue of being self-serving, a lie.

Not every one, but given that it's self-serving AND comes from a politician, I give it only slightly more credence than I would the testimony of someone accused of a crime what says he didn't do it--I need some corroborating evidence before I'm going to accept it.

[gstelmack]

As for "all police are racists", this guy is already in jail:

Husband and wife shot as children watch | abc11.com

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Not every one, but given that it's self-serving AND comes from a politician, I give it only slightly more credence than I would the testimony of someone accused of a crime what says he didn't do it--I need some corroborating evidence before I'm going to accept it.

Fair enough--I'm more inclined to think that, because his after-the-fact explanation is also a commonsensical way of understanding the law, that it is probably honest enough, but I do not know anything about the politician in question one way or the other.

Thanks for sharing the Facebook post--very well done.

[Ben E Lou]

Speaking of spidey sense...mine is starting to tell me that this thing is going to get U-G-L-Y before it's over. It's already ugly for the Martin family, but I'm starting to think it's going to get a lot worse on the national level with the protests and whatnot.

Other random side note: The Grand Jury meets in early April, I think. It would be crazy weird/ironic if they were to release their findings on the 29th...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Yep, good ol' saint Trayvon

My Way News - Fight claims, pot put Fla. teen's side on defense

[chadritt]

Does this somehow imply that Zimmerman confronted Martin correctly, by asking him who he was and if he lived in the neighborhood, and that Martin attacked him instead of answering? The fact a 17 year old tried marijuana doesnt actually seem relevant here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chadritt

The fact a 17 year old tried marijuana doesnt actually seem relevant here.

It certainly goes toward credibility afaic.

Even moreso though - and my primary point - it goes contrary to the early suggestions that "he'd never been in any trouble", which if not verbatim was certainly the tone of comments (in the media, not here) the first couple of days.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yep, good ol' saint Trayvon

My Way News - Fight claims, pot put Fla. teen's side on defense

You knew stuff like this would come out, not many teenagers out there are perfect. It is not unexpected, but still disturbing that this has degenerated to this, but IMO the weed is completely irrelevant to the case.

The focus should be on the two human beings whose paths crossed in a tragic fashion and pursuit of the truth the only agenda.

Instead we have racial division, mud slinging, a curious move by Mom to copyright her son's name and folks on both sides looking to exploit this case for their own personal gain. Same as it ever was......

[molson]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Does this somehow imply that Zimmerman confronted Martin correctly, by asking him who he was and if he lived in the neighborhood, and that Martin attacked him instead of answering? The fact a 17 year old tried marijuana doesnt actually seem relevant here.

I'm sure all the attorneys involved will dig up and leak everything possible on both parties, relevant or otherwise. Zimmerman was a paranoid, unbalanced and dangerous neighborhood watchman, Martin had a pretty colorful wannabe gangster/drug dealer persona on twitter. I don't know how much of it on either side matters to whatever really happened those few seconds though. But whatever conclusion you want to come to, you can easily find the evidence to support it (as would probably be the case with any two people who violently crossed paths)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

IMO the weed is completely irrelevant to the case

Except that it establishes a willingness to engage in criminal activity. (As does Zimmerman's arrest for, what was is, a bar fight or something like that)

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Except that it establishes a willingness to engage in criminal activity. (As does Zimmerman's arrest for, what was is, a bar fight or something like that)

Still not seeing how it's relevant. Zimmerman arrest was evidence of penchant for violence and an associated lack of judgement, very relevant.

Smoking weed? Nothing to do with this.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Except that it establishes a willingness to engage in criminal activity. (As does Zimmerman's arrest for, what was is, a bar fight or something like that)

I see your point, just don't think either should be given that much weight. There are plenty of folks who get high that would never do anything else criminal, same as there are folks that have led a pristine life, that suddenly snap and kill their family.

I know both sides are going to play every card they can find to make the other side look bad, but certain past transgressions relate better than others. If Martin had been arrested for burglary, definitely more relevant, but still doesn't mean he was out to rob someone that night.

[RainMaker]

If smoking marijuana is the green light to be murdered, you're wiping out a quarter of the high school population. Maybe some of you are older and not aware of it, but a lot of high school kids smoke marijuana. A lot of college kids who are not 21 drink beer too.

Maybe someone can find out he was jaywalking too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Except that it establishes a willingness to engage in criminal activity. (As does Zimmerman's arrest for, what was is, a bar fight or something like that)

Wasn't just a bar fight, he was also charged with battery on an officer and resisting arrest. His ex-fiancee also filed a restraining order against him after he assaulted her.

Zimmerman has a history of getting into violent conforntations and claiming the other side was the aggressor. Some would argue that might not be a coincidence.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Except that it establishes a willingness to engage in criminal activity. (As does Zimmerman's arrest for, what was is, a bar fight or something like that)

Um, no. I have no side on this fight, but a person's willingness to use marijuana or even get into fights neither speaks to credibility, nor propensity for Zimmerman's or Martin's behavior.

There's a reason why Federal and State rules of evidence have restrictions on "prior bad acts" as to relevancy in criminal and civil suits.

[CrimsonFox]

Just from what I've seen and read, I think it is less about race but more about gun-toating yahoos with itchy trigger fingers. PUT THOSE FUCKING GUNS DOWN! ATTICA! ATTICA!



...especially the line "He wants to kill me so bad he can taste it". I think that so TOTALLY spells out this situation. He was WANTING to kill someone thrillkill style.

[PilotMan]

I wonder how justice can really prevail here?

This whole case has already been tried in the court of public opinion and yet we are still 2 weeks away from grand Jury testimony.

I have been impressed with the people who have been coming forward on ZImmerman's behalf, except for his lawyer who seemed really nervous. I'm so afraid that if the evidence lets Zimmerman off, it'll be Rodney King all over again. Even if the judicial system does it's job and it's clear to see for all.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I wonder how justice can really prevail here?

This whole case has already been tried in the court of public opinion and yet we are still 2 weeks away from grand Jury testimony.

I have been impressed with the people who have been coming forward on ZImmerman's behalf, except for his lawyer who seemed really nervous. I'm so afraid that if the evidence lets Zimmerman off, it'll be Rodney King all over again. Even if the judicial system does it's job and it's clear to see for all.

Well let's see. One man has a gun and is running aggressively after another and was heard telling someone else he was going after the other and ignores all other coaxing. The other has skittles and tea. Now if the S&T guy mouths off, there is no threat that he can make to a guy with a gun. And about the self-defense plea...he was going AFTER the guy. That's not self defense in any way. He already called authorities and was told to stand down but instead he went AFTER him with his GUN. Unless the kid had an actual weapon, then this is cold blooded thrillkill murder.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

I for one expect pictures of the "injuries" to be released when they can be...and if the police did not take pictures of Zimmermans "injuries" then by all means it opens the door for more questions.

Why wasn't he given a breathalyzer and drug tested? That is standard here in all shootings regardless of the circumstances.

[lungs]

OMG he smoked pot at one time. That clearly points to him entering this gated neighborhood to steal in order to feed his pot addiction! And I bet he was planning on raping some white women for good measure.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I'm so afraid that if the evidence lets Zimmerman off, it'll be Rodney King all over again.

Originally Posted by Some guy, earlier in the thread

Other random side note: The Grand Jury meets in early April, I think. It would be crazy weird/ironic if they were to release their findings on the 29th...

.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

a person's willingness to use marijuana or even get into fights neither speaks to credibility,

Apparently on that point we disagree. Considerably.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Well let's see. One man has a gun and is running aggressively after another and was heard telling someone else he was going after the other and ignores all other coaxing. The other has skittles and tea. Now if the S&T guy mouths off, there is no threat that he can make to a guy with a gun. And about the self-defense plea...he was going AFTER the guy. That's not self defense in any way. He already called authorities and was told to stand down but instead he went AFTER him with his GUN. Unless the kid had an actual weapon, then this is cold blooded thrillkill murder.

So what will you do if the evidence supports the idea that Zimmerman was confronted/attacked going back to his car, and there was a real life and death struggle that ensued? We've only heard one side of this story. I agree with you, if that is indeed what happened it's a travesty, but we can't have lynch mobs out their own brand of justice. The police screwed this whole thing up by not looking at the bigger picture of the situation, but there still has to be a chance to hear the other side where they decided that the evidence supported Zimmerman. Does anyone remember the Duke Lacrosse case? Public opinion was all over that one too, and they had to eat crow. It's completely normal to react that way to the situation but you can't ignore that there might be another side.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

And I guess that goes back to my real problem with a law of this kind. Other than in an obvious cold blooded contract style killing, how do you ever prove that somebody wasn't feeling threatened by somebody else? I shoot my wife's lover, well he was threatening to kick my ass so I shot him. How can you prove differently?

I understand the intent but it just seems so open ended that you could drive a truck through. Hence all the politicians hastily backtracking since this happened

Ding Ding Ding.

At this point, if I had to guess how it went down, I'd say that the most likely course of events is that Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin notices the guy following him, is pissed about being followed, and an altercation ensues. (I'm not willing to speculate on who threw the first punch. We're never going to hear more than one side of that story.) Martin is winning the fight. Zimmerman kills him. There's never a fight if Zimmerman doesn't follow Martin, making him probably guilty of being a wannabe cop who should have let the real cops get there and deal with Martin, maybe guilty of racial profiling, probably guilty of being a generally creepy loser, but probably not legally guilty of murder because of this law. Yeah, my best guess is that if Zimmerman doesn't play cop, Martin gets back to the house before the real cops arrive and watches the 2nd half of the All-Star game.

In short, I'm starting to think that Zimmerman is "responsible" for Martin's death, but probably not criminally guilty. And if that truly is the case, I very much doubt that the masses will be able to separate themselves from their emotions enough to understand the difference between the two.

[molson]

Originally Posted by lungs

OMG he smoked pot at one time. That clearly points to him entering this gated neighborhood to steal in order to feed his pot addiction! And I bet he was planning on raping some white women for good measure.

From his twitter and facebook (which is family rushed to delete immediately after this all happened), it appears he was also a drug dealer, and obsessed with gang violence, and certainly not adverse to confrontation or beating people up - at least by his words.

That's probably not any different than a lot of people that age and like I said, probably has nothing to do with what happened. But look at how much the dialogue of this case has already changed since day 1. Day 1, it was all cut and dried - Zimmerman chased down this kid, unprovoked, hunted him, and shot him because he was black and eating skittles or something. Now, at least, there's some discussion about what else could have been going on, and what level of self-defense is appropriate in different situations, etc, and what the florida law may or may not allow, and what it should or should not allow. Even if Zimmerman should and will still be charged, the dialogue is already a lot different. For some reason, so many people desperately want this case to be as "racially dangerous" as possible and desperately want the facts to be a certain way (and in some cases, take huge offense when people just raise different issues that might create prosecutional challenges to any charges).

And the media of course wants to play right into that. I'm familiar with the term "white hispanic" but was sure I hadn't heard it too much in mainstream media before this story. As it turns out, the New York Times has used that phrase 5 times in his entire history - until this case, where it's a part of every story. That's part of the story that they want to write, to appeal to their mostly white audience I guess, I think to try to make this case seem as "racially dangerous" as possible. The Times appears to believe (and I wonder if they have meetings about this), that their white audience will be less outraged if it it's a black and a Hispanic involved. And I don't even think that's true, I don't think people care that much about what Zimmerman's ethnicity is, but the Times sure isn't taking the chance, and it does expose their motives here, and why we'll hear which facts in what order.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why wasn't he given a breathalyzer and drug tested? That is standard here in all shootings regardless of the circumstances.

How do you know that he wasn't, or "what's standard in all shootings regardless of the circumstances."? Was it requested and refused (by either party)? What's the specific legal authority to demand a drug test outside of a driving context? (where you agree to submit to such tests in your driver's license application.)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by molson

From his twitter and facebook (which is family rushed to delete immediately after this all happened), it appears he was also a drug dealer, and obsessed with gang violence, and certainly not adverse to confrontation or beating people up - at least by his words.

FWIW, there are conflicting reports as to whether the FB/Twitter accounts that have been quoted are actually his or another kid from the Savannah area with the same name.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

FWIW, there are conflicting reports as to whether the FB/Twitter accounts that have been quoted are actually his or another kid from the Savannah area with the same name.

Fair enough, I wish this was out there as much as Zimmerman's 911 call history (if of course, the media trial of both the events of that night and both parties' life stories is really inevitable), so that could quickly be sorted out one way or another.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by molson

From his twitter and facebook (which is family rushed to delete immediately after this all happened), it appears he was also a drug dealer, and obsessed with gang violence, and certainly not adverse to confrontation or beating people up - at least by his words.

Wannabe cop meets wannabe gangsta.... Maybe they are/were both douche bags but nobody deserved to die in all this.

I'm a bit clouded by some of the farming forums I visit because there's no shortage of racist rednecks that come out and say that a negro walking in a gated community had to have been up to no good and had it coming. Of course these are the same jackasses that carry guns on them when they are farming as if some bogey man is going to come out and shoot them in the middle of bumfuck nowhere at any time.

The discourse on here is at least halfways intelligent. JiMGA would probably be classified as a n***** lover by some of the idiots I've seen/heard give their opinion on the subject.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Ding Ding Ding.

At this point, if I had to guess how it went down, I'd say that the most likely course of events is that Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin notices the guy following him, is pissed about being followed, and an altercation ensues. (I'm not willing to speculate on who threw the first punch. We're never going to hear more than one side of that story.) Martin is winning the fight. Zimmerman kills him. There's never a fight if Zimmerman doesn't follow Martin, making him probably guilty of being a wannabe cop who should have let the real cops get there and deal with Martin, maybe guilty of racial profiling, probably guilty of being a generally creepy loser, but probably not legally guilty of murder because of this law. Yeah, my best guess is that if Zimmerman doesn't play cop, Martin gets back to the house before the real cops arrive and watches the 2nd half of the All-Star game.

In short, I'm starting to think that Zimmerman is "responsible" for Martin's death, but probably not criminally guilty. And if that truly is the case, I very much doubt that the masses will be able to separate themselves from their emotions enough to understand the difference between the two.

Trying to keep an open mind about it too. This is pretty close to where I'm at too.