Official 2008-2009 MLB Offseason Thread

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Mariners did well.

Heilman is still very young and needed a change of scenery and Chavez plays gold glove caliber defense.

Heilman is 30, hardly anything close to very young. Yes, a change of scenery could help him, but the problem remains that he wants to be a starter despite only being able to throw two pitches. You can get away with that as a reliever, but not as a starter -- and he has completely self-destructed when it comes to relieving. Also, he wasn't even an effective starter when he was given the opportunity, save for the one-hitter he threw against the Marlins. The rest of his starts were pretty crappy. Granted the Mets don't make all the right decisions, but considering they couldn't field a starting rotation at times last year, and they had a guy who not only wanted to be put into the rotation but also sucked in his current role in the pen, and they STILL didn't give him the opportunity...that tells me something.

Chavez is definitely a great fielder, but is a defensive replacement/PH only. His hitting gets exposed when he's needed to play a lot. Certainly a great guy to have on your bench though.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think Logan was right the first time. This says to me that the Mariners don't think Putz will be able to return to his 06-07 form, and took what they could get.

[Lathum]

hmm, didn't realize heilman was that old.

I agree with everything you say about him, hence the change of scenery being needed.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Granted the Mets don't make all the right decisions, but considering they couldn't field a starting rotation at times last year, and they had a guy who not only wanted to be put into the rotation but also sucked in his current role in the pen, and they STILL didn't give him the opportunity...that tells me something.

That the Mets are idiots?

[Chief Rum]

So what's the truth and what's not the truth? re: Teixeira

I am hearing rumors that the Red Sox and Nats have jumped to an 8th year. Angels have gone 7, and seem set to stay there. O's I think are still at 7. No word on the Yanks, who are thinking of juimping back in.

Lots of rumors that a lot of this is Boras BS, numbers leaked to the media which may or may not be true, meaning he's doing his usual spin and hoping for bidders bidding against themselves.

I wish the Angels and Red Sox would come out and collectively put their foot down, and say, "Here is what we're offering, and we're not offering a penny more. If you want to go to the Nats or O's, so be it."

Love the Hot Stove league, but hate the games Boras plays. If the Angels and Sox came out like that, it would pretty much neuter his position, because everyone knows Teixeira wants to go to a proven winner at this point.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Edes and Brown were even insinuating that the Angels are beginning to move on.

Teixeira negotiations continue to escalate - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

Of course, that too could be posturing, though I will be surprised if the Sox let the Angels outbid them.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Edes and Brown were even insinuating that the Angels are beginning to move on.

Teixeira negotiations continue to escalate - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

Of course, that too could be posturing, though I will be surprised if the Sox let the Angels outbid them.

And that's the problem, really. The Sox shouldn't be in that mode for a player they don't really need. I guarantee Lowell isn't going to get traded, so their payroll then becomes Yankees-esque, and you can kiss goodbye any sympathy people may still have for the Sox not having a Yanks' payroll.

Of course, all that aside, hell, you would have Teixeira, hard not to ignore other consequences if you have that.

[Coffee Warlord]

Trib reporting that the Peavy deal is officially off.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Lowell will certainly get traded. And sympathy doesn't do much to win the AL East.

ETA: Its not out of the question that the Sox could sign Teixeira and an $8m pitcher and have their payroll go down from last years 4th highest payroll.

[Travis]

I really wish the Jays would go after Teixeira. Be the perfect bat to put at the #4 spot and really fill out their lineup. Ah well, here's hoping one of the kids can step up and establish themselves as a power hitting threat.

[SirFozzie]

Apparently according to MLBTradeRumors, despite being widely being seen as frantically trying to dump Peavy's $64 Million left on his contract, the Padres were demanding 6 or 7 players for him, and they didn't think anyone was going to bite at that price.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And that's the problem, really. The Sox shouldn't be in that mode for a player they don't really need. I guarantee Lowell isn't going to get traded, so their payroll then becomes Yankees-esque, and you can kiss goodbye any sympathy people may still have for the Sox not having a Yanks' payroll.

If the Angels sign him, their '09 payroll would be higher than the Red Sox.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

If the Angels sign him, their '09 payroll would be higher than the Red Sox.

Meaning they are much lower than the Sox right now, right? What do the teams' comparative salaries look like if you have $22 M or whatever added to the Sox, and nothing to the Angels? Don't play me that "we're not the Yankees" tune.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Meaning they are much lower than the Sox right now, right?

Not really. 133-119 in '08 (and far closer after the Manny trade, it may be a dead heat at the moment). You complaining about the Red Sox is far worse than a Red Sox fan complaining about the Yankees (where the difference was 209-133). The difference between the Red Sox and Yankees (76) is the same difference as between the Red Sox and the Royals.

I don't think any of it's "unfair", because that's the system we're in, but I'm just correcting the idea that it's Yanks/Sox, then everyone else. Sox were #4 in payroll last year, and in the ballpark of the White Sox/Angels/Cubs, especially after the Manny trade.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

Not really. 133-119 in '08 (and far closer after the Manny trade, it may be a dead heat at the moment). You complaining about the Red Sox is far worse than a Red Sox fan complaining about the Yankees (where the difference was 209-133). The difference between the Red Sox and Yankees (76) is the same difference as between the Red Sox and the Royals.

I don't think any of it's "unfair", because that's the system we're in, but I'm just correcting the idea that it's Yanks/Sox, then everyone else. Sox were #4 in payroll last year, and in the ballpark of the White Sox/Angels/Cubs, especially after the Manny trade.

No, I really think it's about the same, in that neither of us should complain abouth other teams' resources. That said, I think it's patently ridiculous to think the Angels are on the same level of revenue stream as the Red Sox.

And, BTW, you paid ALL of Manny's contract, so nice try at an out there, but no dice. So nowhere near a dead heat. You guys could have paid even more last year. We're talking about a team that dropped $50 M just to talk to Dice-K.

If we add Teix right now, we're about $95-100 M for 2009. When was the last time the Red Sox were down there?

The Manny trade is really disingenious of you to even bring up. You actually added salary, in Jason Bay's contract, while paying not a dime less of your original payroll.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, I really think it's about the same, in that neither of us should complain abouth other teams' resources. That said, I think it's patently ridiculous to think the Angels are on the same level of revenue stream as the Red Sox.

And, BTW, you paid ALL of Manny's contract, so nice try at an out there, but no dice. So nowhere near a dead heat. You guys could have paid even more last year. We're talking about a team that dropped $50 M just to talk to Dice-K.

If we add Teix right now, we're about $95-100 M for 2009. When was the last time the Red Sox were down there?

The Manny trade is really disingenious of you to even bring up. You actually added salary, in Jason Bay's contract, while paying not a dime less of your original payroll.

I don't really feel guilty about the Red Sox making a lot of money - it's not like any of it's mine. I hope they make shitloads.

I just think it's funny you have this crusade against any Sox fans making reference to the Yankee payroll, and then say that the Sox potentially outbidding the Angels is the "problem".

All three teams are loaded, clearly. But there's still differences between them. You're very aware of the Angels/Sox difference, and apparently find that unfair, but think that the Sox/Yanks difference is irrelevant.

All have more than most other teams, of course. It's just annoying to see the other big markets (bigger than Boston in this case) jump on the Boston villain bandwagon.

[Atocep]

BP is reporting the Mets have pulled out of the Derek Lowe bidding and the Yankees could very well walk away with CC, Burnett, and Lowe this offseason.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't really feel guilty about the Red Sox making a lot of money - it's not like any of it's mine. I hope they make shitloads.

I just think it's funny you have this crusade against any Sox fans making reference to the Yankee payroll, and then say that the Sox potentially outbidding the Angels is the "problem".

I don't think it's a "problem". Your word, not mine. I would say it's disappointing. The Red Sox don't need to spend that money. They're already set at the position Teix plays. It's basically a luxury for them. And that difference, that willingness to spend that kinda cash on a luxury, especially when they're already spending what $15-20 M on the "odd man out" in Lowell, is what separates them from the Angels, Cubs, etc. and puts them in Evil Empire range.

To me, that's disappointing, to have to work against that, especially when I see Red Sox fans here complaining about the Yankees (and, yes, Royals fans certainly have the right to bitch at me about the Angels).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

IAll three teams are loaded, clearly. But there's still differences between them. You're very aware of the Angels/Sox difference, and apparently find that unfair, but think that the Sox/Yanks difference is irrelevant.

Never said it was unfair. The system is what we have right now. But why shouldn't I be disappointed when a big spending team comes along to take away what for the Angels comes down to an out and out need, when it is not really a necessary addition for that big spending team? And then one of the fans of said team comes along and tries to tell me the Angels and Sox are on the same level, while trying to pull a fast one with the numbers (Manny trade) to make his point?

Sorry you're surprised I'm not exactly thrilled with you and your argument at the moment.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

BP is reporting the Mets have pulled out of the Derek Lowe bidding and the Yankees could very well walk away with CC, Burnett, and Lowe this offseason.

See, now we could all get on the bandwagon to hate on this. But like molson says, it's the system we have.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But why shouldn't I be disappointed when a big spending team comes along to take away what for the Angels comes down to an out and out need, when it is not really a necessary addition for that big spending team?

I don't think you shouldn't be disappointed by that at all. Just don't get pissy when a Red Sox fan says EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I love you out of one side of your mouth you are saying we shouldn't complain about each other's payrolls, and that it's the system, and then with the other side you are bitching about the Red Sox payroll.

And putting them with the Yankees and separating the other teams out, when we are MUCH MUCH closer to you than the Yankees, is comical.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think it's a "problem". Your word, not mine.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And that's the problem, really. The Sox shouldn't be in that mode for a player they don't really need.

.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think you shouldn't be disappointed by that at all. Just don't get pissy when a Red Sox fan says EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

Fair enough. But don't try to tell me Red Sox and Angels are on the same level. And don't flat out lie about the Manny deal.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

.

You're right, I chose my words poorly there, and I apologize.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I love you out of one side of your mouth you are saying we shouldn't complain about each other's payrolls, and that it's the system, and then with the other side you are bitching about the Red Sox payroll.

And putting them with the Yankees and separating the other teams out, when we are MUCH MUCH closer to you than the Yankees, is comical.

You are much closer to us than the Yankees. That's more about the Yankees. But you guys are on another level from all other teams, except for the Yankees, and you know it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Fair enough. But don't try to tell me Red Sox and Angels are on the same level. And don't flat out lie about the Manny deal.

You're right on Manny, I shouldn't have taken that out of equation, that was an oversight.

A "lie" would be like you saying above that the Sox would be in "Yankee territory" if they signed Teixeira. That would only happen if they gave him about $80 million for next year. (actually I don't think that's a lie either, just an exaggeration)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

You're right on Manny, I shouldn't have taken that out of equation, that was an oversight.

A "lie" would be like you saying above that the Sox would be in "Yankee territory" if they signed Teixeira. That would only happen if they gave him about $80 million for next year.

You are misconstruing "Yankees territory". I have already spoken about exorbitant spending on "luxuries". Your starting 1B last year was, IMO, the best player on your team, including the MVP he plays next to.

You are in Yankees territory in that you have reached the level where you can spend huge amounts on unnecessary additions, outspending teams who actually need the assets you're spending them on.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But you guys are on another level from all other teams, except for the Yankees, and you know it.

They are the #2 revenue team. They actually should be spending way more.

Only the #7 market though.

The difference can be accounted for by insane ticket prices, and enormous interest locally that creates a lucrative TV situation.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I also missed where you were whining about the Tigers and Mets payrolls. The Sox are losing at least $34 million off their payroll from last year. As of right now, they're probably around $100m.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Chief, one reason they can afford to go after Teixiera is that many of the players they use are homegrown and still under their rookie contracts or early in arbitration. The ability to go after Teixiera is their reward for drafting and developing well.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I also missed where you were whining about the Tigers and Mets payrolls. The Sox are losing at least $34 million off their payroll from last year. As of right now, they're probably around $100m.

The Tigers and Mets haven't won any world series lately. Therefore, they're not hated.

It's a simple equation.

[SirFozzie]

and they don't have as vocal a fan base. (agreed, some of us are quite easy to hate, but that's not the main thing behind it)

[Big Fo]

Angels and Red Sox fans arguing about payrolls might be the one thing more annoying than the constant crying by fans of small market teams. Congratulations guys, that's no small accomplishment.

[DaddyTorgo]

saying the Sox shouldn't go after Tex because they are all set at his position is bunk.

Lowell is getting old and missed significant time last year. Our 1st basemen can also play very good 3b, so why not go after a 1b and move the 1b to 3b, particularly when you need Tex in the batting order. Don't ignore the offensive side of the game when you say the red sox are set.

[mckerney]

Oh great, Lil' Nicky Punto signed to be the Twins starting SS.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Oh great, Lil' Nicky Punto signed to be the Twins starting SS.

Well, the Royals just threw away a comparable amount of money today on Kyle Farnworth to start the season as the setup guy before flaming out and either getting in a fight with {choose, does not have to be limited to 1: his catcher, lovable teammate, Jose Guillen, manager, fan, stadium vendor, pet, fire hydrant, other}, having his arm break down, or being demoted to mop-up duty after getting whiplash from giving up so many homers.

SI

[RedKingGold]

Hamels: Mets have been 'choke artists"

As World Series champions, the Philadelphia Phillies have earned the right to flaunt such status. Pitcher Cole Hamels might have gone a little overboard, and at the expense of the team's bitter rival, no less.



In an interview on New York sports talk station WFAN on Thursday, Hamels, the World Series MVP, responded in the affirmative when asked if he thought the Mets were "choke artists."


"Last year and this year I think we did believe that [they were choke artists]," Hamels told the station, alluding to the Phillies winning the NL East in 2008 and '07, in part, with the help of back-to-back September collapses by New York. "Three years ago we didn't because they smoked everybody, and I think we all thought they were going to win it all. Unfortunately that didn't happen."


The Mets won 97 games and the NL East title in 2006 but lost to the Cardinals in the NL Championship Series in seven games.


"But, yeah, that's kind of what we believed and I think we're always going to believe that until they prove us wrong," Hamels said. "For the past two years they've been choke artists."


The trash talk between the two teams started before the 2007 season when Phillies shortstop Jimmy Rollins pronounced Philadelphia the team to beat in the NL East even though New York ran away with the division crown in '06. New York squandered a seven-game cushion with 17 to play in 2007 as the Phillies took the division and Rollins went on to win the NL MVP award.


Early in spring training this year, after the Mets acquired ace left-hander Johan Santana, normally quiet outfielder Carlos Beltran had a message for Rollins, saying the Mets were the team to beat in 2008. New York finished second in the East to Philadelphia and the Phillies went on to beat the Tampa Bay Rays in the World Series.

[RedKingGold]

Cole = thumbs up

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Well, the Royals just threw away a comparable amount of money today on Kyle Farnworth to start the season as the setup guy before flaming out and either getting in a fight with {choose, does not have to be limited to 1: his catcher, lovable teammate, Jose Guillen, manager, fan, stadium vendor, pet, fire hydrant, other}, having his arm break down, or being demoted to mop-up duty after getting whiplash from giving up so many homers.

SI

The Twins paid Mike Lamb and Livan Hernandez a combined $8.5 million last year, with money still owned to Lamb before waiving both of them, so I'm kind of used to this by now.

[sterlingice]

Moore is thinking the Royals can compete next year in the weakened central so he's patching holes and overpaying to do it. Kansas City is set to open the newly renovated stadium next season and if they're even sniffing the playoffs, they're going to get some big numbers from a city starved for a mediocre team, much less a contender. Of course, the economy could be putting a damper on things.

I'm sure that every Royals fan will be taken to task for their team's horrible moves by teams spending twice and three times what they are but that's pretty much the reason this is happening. Personally, I'd rather have not spent on Jacobs or Farnsworth or Horacio Ramirez (tho I'm fairly ok with the Crisp deal) but contrary to the myth of the "replacement level player", you can't just get a player off the street and they will instantly perform at "replacement level". The Royals had quite a few spots where they had below replacment level guys last year and I think Moore is thinking that if he can just get those to ok level while adding some other talent, that gets the team quite a few more wins and even a possible contending spot in a weak division.

SI

[Crapshoot]

The Royals spending $7M on Horacio Ramirez and Kyle Farnsworth, and that alone is proof that revenue sharing won't cure stupidity. I mean - seriously?

[arizing540]

Apparently Manny is considering retiring if he doesn't get some good offers soon lol

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...0,548502.story

[Logan]

Phillies signed Ibanez, 3 years $30 million.

[Thomkal]

Manny, that whole retirement threat didn't work out for Daunte Culpepper, look where he is now.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Logan

Phillies signed Ibanez, 3 years $30 million.

Thank God, save us from ourselves.

I have been hearing he was the Angels backup plan if Teixeira wasn't signed. Just what we need, another popgun outfielder who will strain to reach 20 HRs.

When is someone--anyone--in the Angels front office going to carp to the fact that the one thing we lack, and have always lacked since Glaus was allowed to leave, is that super power bat, that 40 HR threat? That's the kind of bat that gives pitchers something to worry about.

We need the one swing threat. I am tired of getting down by a run or two and being concerned we couldn't come back.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Thank God, save us from ourselves.

I have been hearing he was the Angels backup plan if Teixeira wasn't signed. Just what we need, another popgun outfielder who will strain to reach 20 HRs.

Maybe in your park but in Citizen's Bank, those pop ups are HRs!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Maybe in your park but in Citizen's Bank, those pop ups are HRs!

Is Citizen's Bank on the free agent market? Maybe we can bring it in for $40 M over 3 years!

Seriously, though, Ibanez is a very good OF and good signing for the Phils. I am very happy to see him in the NL, because he is an Angels killer. That said, we don't need more Torii Hunters, Garrett Anderson, Juan Riveras, Gary Matthews in our OF.

I am hoping for feast or famine Adam Dunn myself (after Teixeira, of course).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Seriously, though, Ibanez is a very good OF and good signing for the Phils. I am very happy to see him in the NL, because he is an Angels killer. That said, we don't need more Torii Hunters, Garrett Anderson, Juan Riveras, Gary Matthews in our OF.

Ibanez is one that I wish the Royals would have retained a few years ago. He's a very consistant player (both offense and defense) and was always a great guy to have in the clubhouse. Fans loved him. Hopefully Philly won't eat him alive.

[MikeVic]

I wanted Ibanez for the Jays, but since they've changed from buyers to do nothingers... I guess I couldn't keep wanting that.