Official 2008-2009 MLB Offseason Thread

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Maddux had the best career of anyone this generation. Clemens and Martinez were better pitchers.

They weren't even close to the pitcher that Maddux was. Maddux got by on brains...that's what a pitcher is. Clemens was overpowering and when he got old, he was toast...so he cheated. Martinez was Maddux for a while and then he faltered. Maddux is the greatest pitcher since Seaver.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I did that with Maddux long before today. Simply the greatest pitcher within my memory (I missed actually seeing Koufax), and quite possibly the best ever.

Maddux is one of the 10 best pitchers of all time, but for pure peak value, none of us will ever see a season quite like Pedro in 1999 (or 2000).

[Buccaneer]

Easily in my top 5 favorite players of all time, and certainly my favorite pitcher from the past 20 years. I am glad that I got to see him pitch one last time in June (even though it wasn't a good outing). His control throughout the game, as well as his glove, was the best I have ever seen in my baseball life.

Sure, several pitchers have had awesome seasons but 20 straight 13-win seasons is also awesome. I am much more impressed by consistency and career value than I am in some hotshot coming in, pitching great for a couple eyars and then blows out his arm or succumb to injuries.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Maddux is one of the 10 best pitchers of all time, but for pure peak value, none of us will ever see a season quite like Pedro in 1999 (or 2000).

Don't forget that Maddux has 2 of the 5 best Adjusted ERA+ seasons of all time.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Don't forget that Maddux has 2 of the 5 best Adjusted ERA+ seasons of all time.

Legit, but what Pedro did in 2000 (a 9 to 1 K to BB ratio, something like 11 K/9, and a WHIP of 0.73 ) is beyond ridiculous - he didn't really use his defense. Picking nits with Maddux is absurd, no doubt, but his dominance was second to Pedro's - in that he relied slightly more on his defense.

Think about this: In 2000 (and 1999 offers plenty or arguments as well)

Pedro had
1) The highest K's in the league, and the highest K/rate in the league (starters qualification)
2) The 2nd lowest walk rate in the league
3) Allowed 5.31 hits per 9 IP
4) led the league in shutouts and 2nd in complete games


I always say this - Pedro in 1999 and 2000 was the pitcher people imagine Koufax was.

[ISiddiqui]

Not only that, Crapshoot, but Pedro's 7 year run from 1997 to 2003 is so amazingly impressive that it hasn't even been close to equaled by anyone in baseball history (Walter Johnson's 8 year run from 1912-19 is the closest, but he had some subpar [for a HoF on the level of Johnson or Martinez] years in the middle). Maddux may have had 2 of the 5 best Adjusted ERA+ season of all time (4th and 5th), but Martinez has the 2nd greatest (and really, the first best is from 1880 when things were much different) by quite a margin and has 4 others in the top 35. And he is the only pitcher in MLB history with 5 seasons of over 200 ERA+ (all within that 7 year run). He still has the highest ERA+ in MLB history by a starting pitcher.

So Martinez has 5 of the top 35 (actually 32) pitching seasons of all time in that amazing 7 year run of his. Another one of those seasons he only pitched 117 innings due to injury, but ERA+ would have been 58th all time if he pitched enough innings to qualify. The lowest season of the bunch was a 163 ERA+ season (225th best pitching season of all time according to ERA+) which was his first season in Boston, adjusting to a new league.

That run is utterly incomprehensible. Crapshoot is right. During that run, Pedro was the pitcher people imagine Koufax was. For comparison Koufax's ERA+ during his last four season was 159, 187, 160, and 190. Martinez had FIVE seasons during that 7 year run that were better in ERA+ than ANY season Koufax ever had.

[Buccaneer]

Yet people debate whether Koufax's career was long enough to merit being in the Hall.

This is simply another political debate.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My guess would be no, just doesn't seem like it would suit him. I could see him doing the spring training visit like ala Koufax at some point though.

Watch out, Tom Emanski!!!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Yet people debate whether Koufax's career was long enough to merit being in the Hall.

This is simply another political debate.

And yet no one is debating Pedro's merits for the Hall .

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Not only that, Crapshoot, but Pedro's 7 year run from 1999 to 2003 is so amazingly impressive

...that he had a 7 year run in 5 years?

SI

[Big Fo]

Five years actually

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I did that with Maddux long before today. Simply the greatest pitcher within my memory (I missed actually seeing Koufax), and quite possibly the best ever.

I'm with JIMGA here. But, after looking through some post history, we've agreed on this for at least 3 years (and there are some posts where Bucc and I say the same thing, too) so it's not exactly a recent thing:

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Greg Maddux

SI

[DeToxRox]

FOX Sports reports that the Detroit Tigers have acquired catcher Gerald Laird from the Rangers for Double-A right-hander Guillermo Moscoso and a second prospect.

Moscoso was rated the 10th best Tigs prospect. History of shoulder problems. Ways away from the big team.

Laird is solid defensivley, and meh offensivley, but considering our situation, I like it.

Hopefully we make a move for Kerry Wood, and sign something at SS (sounds like Adam Everett) Wheoever the SS is is a one year player until Cale Iorg is ready, so just get a guy who can play defense at this point, and sure up the pen.

Probably the best bet for Detroit is .500 next season, but then some more money is off the books, and we can go from there.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Five years actually

:o, should be 1997 as the starting date.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Five years actually

Whoops. My bad. Corrected

SI

[sterlingice]

Your newest Hall of Famer, Joe Gordon. Here are his comparables. Ugh.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3754618

1. Jose Valentin (902)
2. Bret Boone (900)
3. Jorge Posada (891)
4. Adrian Beltre (890)
5. Vern Stephens (890)
6. Javy Lopez (890)
7. Bill Nicholson (889)
8. Doug DeCinces (883)
9. Ken Caminiti (881)
10. Kirk Gibson (880)

SI

[Neuqua]

Still no Santo... Sigh...

[molson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Your newest Hall of Famer, Joe Gordon. Here are his comparables. Ugh.
ESPN - Veterans Committee elects former second baseman Joe Gordon to Hall of Fame

1. Jose Valentin (902)
2. Bret Boone (900)
3. Jorge Posada (891)
4. Adrian Beltre (890)
5. Vern Stephens (890)
6. Javy Lopez (890)
7. Bill Nicholson (889)
8. Doug DeCinces (883)
9. Ken Caminiti (881)
10. Kirk Gibson (880)

SI

It does seem like an odd choice.

He did finish top 10 in the MVP voting 5 times (winning once), and apparently (wiki is my only source) was known for his defense. So he's at least something better than those guys on the baseball reference comparison

I imagine there weren't many second baseman putting up numbers like that back then.

[DeToxRox]

Tigers are about to sign Adam Everett, to give us a Herculean offensively gifted left side of our infield, along with Inge.

Honestly though, he'll platoon with Santiago for a year until Cale Iorg can hopefully go, then, if Dombrowski and co. are to be believed, we won't need to worry about SS for the next ten years.

Now the Tigs are looking at JJ Putz and Kerry Wood.

If we can add one of them, and then sign one more arm, I'd be more confident of the Tigers to finish .500.

[DeToxRox]

Dola .. Everett signs a 1 year, 1 million dollar deal plus incentives. About what I expected.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Tigers are about to sign Adam Everett, to give us a Herculean offensively gifted left side of our infield, along with Inge.

They are seriously kickass defensively though. Even if they hit a combined .212

[Chief Rum]

Rumors have it that the Red Sox and Angels have discussed trading one of the Angels' young C (Mathis or Napoli) for one of Boston's young arms (Masterson or Bucholz). Not sure I buy it, since I don't see one team wanting to help the other unless they had no other options for the holes they are trying to fill.

Also, angelsbaseball.com is reporting the Angels are interested in Kawakami in Japan to replace Garland in the rotation.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

No chance you'll get Masterson or Buccholz for Mathis or Napoli. The Sox balked at that price for Teagarden/Saltalamacchia. I also agree that a deal between the two teams would be difficult to pull off.

Also hearing that the Angels are willing to go 8/160 for Teixiera. Wonder if the Sox would match that?

[DeToxRox]

Tigs tried getting Napoli but the price was way too high according to a Tigs writer, which is why they got Laird instead.

[Chief Rum]

I don't actually see the Angels moving Napoli at all. The rumors are probably out there just because other teams have asked, but the Angels won't be interested in moving a good power catcher whose defensive skills improved a lot last season. They would be much more interested in moving Mathis, who has displayed a little bit of power, but is far from the sure thing offensively. He is a better catcher than Napoli, but Naps closed the gap.

My guess is the Red Sox asked the Angels if they would move Naps. The Angels either said no flat out, or countered with Napoli for Masterson and a prospect (the Angels wouldn't move Napoli for Masterson alone, and the Red Sox won't move Masterson for Napoli alone), or countered with Mathis for Bucholz, I would guess. Red Sox, of course, said no to those deals, and since the Angels don't have to move either of them, I guess that's that. Although it will be interesting to see what the Red Sox do behind the plate if they don't get Varitek back. But then, who's going to sign an over the hill catcher coming off of an awful offensive season when signing him now will cost that team picks? I am pretty sure Varitek (and Boras) will come to reality at some point and sign the offer I last heard the Sox offering (2 year, $10 M, I think).

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Also hearing that the Angels are willing to go 8/160 for Teixiera. Wonder if the Sox would match that?

Oh yeah, no official offer yet to Teix from the Halos, but I am certain they have assured Boras they will make one if Teix starts getting offers.

I think if the Sox were smart, they would match that. I am hoping the Angels will be willing to go even higher to bring him back than 8/160 (and I actually think they are willing).

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I really can't see Varitek in another uniform next season, not after declining arbitration. I kind of feel like he was locked in for the Sox the minute they offered arb.

I also agree about the Angels - there's no real "need" for them to trade one of their catchers, so they'll have to be impressed with an offer.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

It does seem like an odd choice.

He did finish top 10 in the MVP voting 5 times (winning once), and apparently (wiki is my only source) was known for his defense. So he's at least something better than those guys on the baseball reference comparison

I imagine there weren't many second baseman putting up numbers like that back then.

Yeah, but the MVP he won (1942), there was NO WAY he should have gotten it. Ted Williams had one of the greatest seasons of all time that year (including winning the Triple Crown and led the league in OBP and SLG [which, granted, wasn't widely known of back then] and got shafted. To put it in context, using OPS+, it was the 21st greatest season a hitter has had in MLB history. He had an OPS+ of 217. Gordon had one of 155. Gordon may have been great defensively, but I can't see him making up that much ground with it.

It helps when you play on the legendary Yankees.

[MrBug708]

3 years for Casey Blake at 7 million? Meh

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by rowech

They weren't even close to the pitcher that Maddux was. Maddux got by on brains...that's what a pitcher is.

Go back and watch game 5 of the 2001? ALDS when an injured Pedro who couldn't touch 90 came out of the bullpen and no-hit Cleveland for 6 innings and tell me he couldn't pitch. Just made it all the better when he he was healthy, but make no mistake, he was changing speeds, locating and keeping hitters off balance as well as Maddux ever did.

[Logan]

Seems like the Mets and K-Rod are set to close on a 3-year, $37 million deal. I voiced some concerns about signing him in the season thread, as the same thread made me familiar with Chief Rum's frustrations about him. But at that price, and more importantly those years, I think it would be a solid deal.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, that's really not all that bad at all. Wow, if they can swing that, that's pretty decent.

[sterlingice]

The market has really shrunk this year. I would be begging my owner to free up $20M+ this year since the deals out there are really good right now. You get a lot better bang for your buck this season than in the last 5 or so.

SI

[Lathum]

Great deal for the Mets if it goes through. Last year was beyond frustrating watching the bullpen melt down.

Now if we could only ship Heilman's ass out of town.

[DeToxRox]

Tigs and M's are in talks for J.J Putz. When he's healthy he is as good as anyone, but who knows his health.

Still, I don't think we have what it takes to get him without dealing Porcello, Crosby or Iorg, or so I hope anyway.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Royals GM is now quoted as saying that Teahan is off the block. If they need to make room to land one of the free agent shortstops, Guillen would be the trade bait.

[Chief Rum]

It's a much better deal than had been proposed/suggested by K-Rod & his agent before free agency, and I hope the Mets and K-Rod do well with it.

All that said, get ready for some serious hair pulling situations and extreme frustration. And frankly I will be very interested to see how Franky reacts the first time he is taken to task by the New York media for the usual BS he brings, where he doesn't even seem to try until he gets two runners on.

[Neuqua]

Chicago sports radio is reporting Peavy to the Cubs is "imminent."

Man I hope this happens.

[DeToxRox]

Sounds like Wood is off to the Indians.

According to MLB.com's Anthony Castrovince, the Indians appear closer to a two-year deal with Kerry Wood. The deal may contain a third-year option.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

All that said, get ready for some serious hair pulling situations and extreme frustration. And frankly I will be very interested to see how Franky reacts the first time he is taken to task by the New York media for the usual BS he brings, where he doesn't even seem to try until he gets two runners on.

Considering Wagner had no problem allowing runners on, and then was still ineffective, I'll look forward to the improvement !

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

And to think that four months ago K-Rod was the greatest closer in the game.

[DeToxRox]

C.C. Sabathia Rumors: Tuesday
By Tim Dierkes [December 9 at 1:45pm CST]

1:45pm: Tony Jackson's heard word that Giants officials are "supremely confident" they're going to sign Sabathia.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Chicago sports radio is reporting Peavy to the Cubs is "imminent."

Man I hope this happens.

ESPN - Source: Chicago Cubs not 'remotely close' to deal for Jake Peavy

[DeToxRox]

If the Giants get CC, I see another Zito like disaster. Once he gets paid, I can see him getting up to 320 + lbs. Should be interesting though. I definetly think he doesn't want to leave the NL though.

[rowech]

The spin coming from all these teams is becoming comical.

[DeToxRox]

According to Baseball Prospectus' John Perrotto:

Jason Giambi appears headed back to the Athletics as a free agent, and an announcement could come at the meetings as the first baseman/designated hitter lives in Las Vegas.

Interesting move here. Giambi still has power and has an approach at the plate Beane loves. I guess I need to see the financials, but the A's seem to be bandied about more with free agents then in years past.

[DeToxRox]

2:25pm: The saga continues...Kevin Towers does not think this deal lost steam in the last 24 hours, according to Yahoo's Tim Brown and Gordon Edes. However, they say the Cubs are having second thoughts about this four-team mess. The Cubs source says the price is too steep for them right now and they're looking at another short-term option for the rotation (Randy Johnson maybe).

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

This is truly the silly season. No point in living and dying with each mlbtraderumors.com update.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Seems like the Mets and K-Rod are set to close on a 3-year, $37 million deal. I voiced some concerns about signing him in the season thread, as the same thread made me familiar with Chief Rum's frustrations about him. But at that price, and more importantly those years, I think it would be a solid deal.

Official.

Hopefully we can pull off the rumored deal of Heilman plus another player to Colorado for Street, and then sign one more reliever.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Logan

Official.

Hopefully we can pull off the rumored deal of Heilman plus another player to Colorado for Street, and then sign one more reliever.

Word. Thanks for the draft picks!