OT: The Joy of Parenting (or lack thereof)

[CraigSca]

Five and a half years ago my wife and I had our first child - a boy. As any new parent can understand, we were popping wheelies we were so excited. Other than a slight bout with bilirubin issues our child was healthy, happy, etc.

Flash forward a few months. Having an infant is hard. You know you see the happy parents on TV, friends, family, etc. But, to be honest, that lack of sleep and the 24/7 duty of having an infant is time-consuming and tiring as you-know-what. At this point, our son is still not sleeping through the night and it's starting to take it's toll. Sleep would come around 11pm (after countless minutes rocking in our arms and in his car seat) but a couple hours later he would wake up ravenous. Rinse, lather, repeat throughout the night. This lasted until about the age of 9 months. Meanwhile, during the day, our son quickly grew tired of any activity (bouncy chair, lying on his stomach, being played with, etc.) and would begin moaning about a minute after the activity started. This moaning would also occur during the night during his "wake-ups". He also never really took an active interest in being held by his parents...after about 30 seconds he would begin to moan and push away. This was his infanthood.

Flash forward to now. At this point, he sleeps through the night (ha) but is a walking raw wound. Anything...in the SLIGHTEST, will set him off. Complete, unfettered temper tantrum. He will literally scream through clenched teeth in anger as if he is about to explode (just happened a few minutes ago) and try to retaliate against the slight by hitting (sometimes biting and/or spitting). For example, reminding him to flush the toilet. Here's the typical conversation:

"****, can you please flush the toilet? I think you forgot."

"I did flush."

"****, I know you didn't. Can you just do it for me?"

"I hate flushing the toilet."

Yeah, it stinks. Can you flush the toilet for me anyway? You have to after going to the bathroom."

"I already did."

"****, just humor me and do it again?"

Temper tantrum ensues. Mind you - this is 6am - he just got up and I'm trying to keep him quiet so he doesn't wake up his mother.

"I don't want to! I hate it! GRRRRR!"

At this point I am so angered by the situation. Just flush the G.D. toilet - you're 10 feet away from it and I'm downstairs in the other room. But, this is typical behavior throughout the day.

Three years ago my wife and I had a daughter. Only after having her do we see what parenting is "supposed" to be like. It's not arguments 24/7, it's not being yelled and screamed at, it's not constant lying. Only by having her do we see a sweet little child that cares about her family, friends, herself. Our son could not care less about anything except his current "need" whatever he deems that to be.

So...where am I going here? Over the past few years we had our son in for counseling because things are just not right. It's obvious.

Example #1: Visiting his out-of-state cousins. The excitement is obviously too much for him and he can't calm himself down. During a "game" with his male cousin, he bites his arm and spits on him. This was a month ago.

Example #2: Visiting other cousins, slightly older than he is. Seeing the older group of boys he wants to participate but doesn't know how. While they are playing basketball, he runs up to any one of them and begins to "play fight" and tackle them. Every game the kid plays has fighting and death in it - very rarely are the games innocuous. His cousins, of course, look at him like he's nuts.

Example #3: We've had a cat since day 1. However, he's now taking to picking up the cat, locking him in places and putting things over his head (our concern is the cat will suffocate). Our cat is pretty laid back so he doesn't really scratch or claw - he just takes it. Our concern is that this will escalate into hurting animals.

Bottom line: The child doesn't care about anything, anyone but himself. His sister could fall down the staircase screaming bloody murder and his concern is that he can't hear the TV. Only by having our daughter do we see that this complete lack of compassion isn't normal.

Now, I know a lot of you will say that this child just needs some discipline. I would agree if I were you. But, I've been there and done that. We set rules and try our best to have our children abide by them. However, this behavior is outside the lines. If (or more likely when) he decides to disobey he gets something of his taken away (and, of course, screams bloody murder - but he's not getting it back). The problem is, he still just doesn't understand - he looks at you like you're the meanest thing in the world and repeats the behavior again.

As far as disciplinary action let me give you an example: During the 2 to 3 year old stage, he would not go to bed. You develop the routine, read stories, brush teeth, yada yada, turn out the light, put him to bed. Within a minute he's up. "****, go back to bed." He doesn't. You go up there and PHYSICALLY have to put him back to bed. Finally after the fifth or sixth time (and after multiple threats - NO "something he wants" tomorrow") you finally lose it out of frustration and tell him he'll be smacked on the rear-end if he gets out of bed. Of course, he gets out of bed, and gets smacked. Problem is, he's now freaking out and this whole damn thing has escalated where he's telling you "you're mean, I hate you!", etc., etc. Of course, now he's further from falling asleep than ever. Meanwhile, my daughter went to bed at the same time and is already asleep.

Because of work I have to go on business trips every week. The majority of the time I come home and my wife is at her wit's end and near crying. This is my life.

I love my son, and I love my family. I just don't know what to do. My concern is that this will only get worse as he gets older. Again, more FOFC therapy - just thought I'd vent.

[MacroGuru]

one major line I draw here.

He is a boy.....mine is almost the exact same....and the only thing I can think of is, boys will be boys...

My mom has stated I acted almost exactly like mine.

In fact....at times I feel to strict with my kids, but I am that way as I see my other friends have no discipline with their children and how bad they destroy things.

[Franklinnoble]

Yikes.

I have a 10 month old, and one more on the way, and this is pretty frightening.

There may not be much you can do about it. It sounds as if you and your wife are good, dedicated parents, and that's the most important thing.

I'm sure others will chime in and suggest the boy has some chemical imbalance and that you should dope him up or something. I would caution against this... but that's just my opinion. Stay the course and maintain discipline. If he's still thinks you're a rotten parent in a few years, take him to the projects and show him how bad it COULD be for him. By then, he'll be old enough to learn to appreciate what his parents do for him on a basic level.

Either that, or find a good exorcist.

[Blackadar]

Wow, Craig, that...sucks. I have a 4 1/2 year old and my experience is much different.

One thing you said at the end...
"Because of work I have to go on business trips every week. The majority of the time I come home and my wife is at her wit's end and near crying."
...you may want your wife to seek therapy as well. I'm wondering if the two issues are related in a different way. Perhaps he's picking up some of these behaviors from Mom? It's just a thought...not an accusation.

[VPI97]

I know it seems frustrating, but indoorsoccersim is right...boys will be boys. My 8 year old daughter was a treat to raise. Polite, thoughtful, kind...everything top notch. Out soon-to-be three year old boy? Balls to the wall. Hit, spit, bite, yell, run, etc. That's not to mean you shouldn't do anything...my thought on our boy is to keep trying to enforce our rules and while we don't want to let up on anything, we should also understand that he's not his sister. If that mean having to repeat ourselves a dozen times, so be it....I'm not going to punish him simply for being a boy, but I'm also not going to 'reward' his behavior by chalking him up to a no-win situation and attribute it all to his gender. Keep the structure up and eventually the rambunctious phase will end. Hopefully some of the discipline that is ignored now will be heeded later.

[Qwikshot]

I can't compare with that, my daughter has tantrums but I've kept them in check. We once went to Borders and after letting her look first for books, she wanted to sit and read, which I couldn't do because I wanted to browse (I had a stroller but she refused to sit in it). It began to escalate. I had always used counting to three to warn her, and I did tell her, that after 3 we we're leaving, no books. She kept her ground, and I kept mine, and after three, she was kicking and screaming as we left Borders. She apologized when I got her to the car, but I did not give in. From that point on, she behaved.

There were countless other times where we would spar. Mainly because my ex refused to parent, but I felt that is why my daughter and I have a closer bond, I spent time raising her, so I just shake my head when my ex complains about her misbehaving.

Incidently this is the low point of my life, my ex (who was cheating on me during our relationship) just asked me if I wanted to be invited to her wedding. I'm still shaking my head.

In your case, I think that there is an issue. But my question is, "Why did your son not want to flush the toilet?" My daughter is toilet training right now, and she's good at it, except for washing her hands, a constant reminder, and I don't just tell her to wash her hands, I explain why she needs to.

I remember seeing on 20/20 about hyperactive kids, and the need for structure. Like having a chart with chores on it, and giving him a star everytime he completes a task. Some kids need a lot of supervision, and a lot of structure, other kids simply learned the rules faster (like your daughter).

Best wishes to you though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

At the risk of fulfilling Franklinnoble's prophecy, there's enough sign of chemical imbalance at work here that I'd strongly suggest having that angle checked thoroughly. Much like "being paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you", just because there may be some who overprescribe medication for kids, there are also situations where it is the key to effective treatment (think schizophrenia as a possible example).

Beyond that, there's another thing that jumped out at me in your post --
If (or more likely when) he decides to disobey he gets something of his taken away ... The problem is, he still just doesn't understand - he looks at you like you're the meanest thing in the world and repeats the behavior again.

That's two unrelated things AFAIC. You may seem like "the meanest thing in the world" but that's the breaks sometimes. That has nothing to do IMO with "...and repeats the behavior again". That seems like an indication that your application of the punishment isn't failing you, it's your choice of punishment.

What I'm trying to say is that if it isn't working, then there's a chance that you're choosing the wrong punishment; i.e. taking the wrong toy, restricting the wrong privelege, etc. You aren't striking at something that really matters, or at least not
at something that matters enough to restrict the undesirable behavior. Different kids react best to different motivations, maybe it's a matter of finding the most effective carrot and/or stick. (FTR -- I'm not saying you haven't tried to find the right one(s), I'm just suggesting that you take a step back & re-examine your choices to see if there's something you might have missed, sometimes it won't be something obvious or even logical.)

Having a son who is in the same age range (not quite 6 1/2), I can at least imagine your frustration with this & I sincerely wish you the best.

[Ksyrup]

I will be the first to attest that gender only goes so far in explaining this problem. Our 5-year old, while not displaying some of the aggressiveness of CraigSca's boy, is quite the challenge. And, although our second daughter is only 3-months old, we can already see the difference in their personalities. The 3-month old smiles way more than the 5-year old did at this age, is much more laid back, rarely fusses, etc.

Just trying to get the 5-year old to pick something up off the floor is a major hassle. Every comment, suggestion, or command I give is responded to, either negatively or just with a nonsensical or rote comment (her typical response these days, regardless of what we've said, is "Yeah, right"). And she's picked up the annoying habit of correcting every little mistake we make - if I call my wife's minivan a car, she corrects me; if I call her skirt a dress, she corrects me. She perfected the "hand on hip with bent knee" move before she was 3.

It will be interesting to compare the two, but we don't anticipate these kinds of issues - at least to this degree - with the younger one. Our guess is that being the only child for nearly 5 years has something to do with it. She's definitely not a bad kid, and she's vey smart, which might be part of it as well, but she seems to be unnecessarily combative.

[CraigSca]

Wow guys - thanks so much for the responses! I'm going to address them one at a time...

Originally Posted by Blackadar

One thing you said at the end...
"Because of work I have to go on business trips every week. The majority of the time I come home and my wife is at her wit's end and near crying."
...you may want your wife to seek therapy as well. I'm wondering if the two issues are related in a different way. Perhaps he's picking up some of these behaviors from Mom? It's just a thought...not an accusation.

Good point, but I don't think this is the issue. Only recently did I begin a job that required me to be away from home (but usually on 2 days a week). However, I do see value in her getting therapy, just so she can have somehwere to vent about her daily life.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Yikes.

I'm sure others will chime in and suggest the boy has some chemical imbalance and that you should dope him up or something. I would caution against this... but that's just my opinion. Stay the course and maintain discipline. If he's still thinks you're a rotten parent in a few years, take him to the projects and show him how bad it COULD be for him. By then, he'll be old enough to learn to appreciate what his parents do for him on a basic level.

Either that, or find a good exorcist.

Ha. I agree, Franklin. We've held out of suggesting medication because we don't want to fall in that trap. My wife and I spoke yesterday and she suggested that if his kindergarten teachers (he starts in two weeks) mention that they think his behavior is abnormal, then we may want to re-address our initial thoughts on this topic. I tend to agree.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Craig: Not to scare you, but have you explored the possibility that your child has mild to moderate autism? The behavior, especially at his current age, doesn't sound particularly normal, and your son reminds me of students that I have encountered with autism and a good friend's daughter who is autistic.

http://www.childbrain.com/pddq5.shtml
http://www.childbrain.com/pddq3.shtml

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by VPI97

I know it seems frustrating, but indoorsoccersim is right...boys will be boys. My 8 year old daughter was a treat to raise. Polite, thoughtful, kind...everything top notch. Out soon-to-be three year old boy? Balls to the wall. Hit, spit, bite, yell, run, etc. That's not to mean you shouldn't do anything...my thought on our boy is to keep trying to enforce our rules and while we don't want to let up on anything, we should also understand that he's not his sister. If that mean having to repeat ourselves a dozen times, so be it....I'm not going to punish him simply for being a boy, but I'm also not going to 'reward' his behavior by chalking him up to a no-win situation and attribute it all to his gender. Keep the structure up and eventually the rambunctious phase will end. Hopefully some of the discipline that is ignored now will be heeded later.

I agree with this as well, VPI. This whole situation is made more difficult by this exact scenario. Is he just being a 5 year old boy and we're just freaking out because we're too uptight? Are we the worst parents ever (which my wife sometimes thinks) because no "good" parent would have a child like this.

We've done some research on him and we think that he's an "active alert" child. Meaning, he has very little understanding beyond his own self and constantly pushes boundaries. It mentions that extremely driven people are sometimes active alert, so they sometimes grow up to be athletes, CEOs, etc. It also says that since they have no boundaries they are also much more likely to become violent, get arrested, experiment with drugs, etc. We have a lot to look forward to .

[Franklinnoble]

I'm thinking it would be fantastic for CraigSca's boy to get a FOFC handle as soon as he's old enough to type.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Craig: Not to scare you, but have you explored the possibility that your child has mild to moderate autism? The behavior, especially at his current age, doesn't sound particularly normal, and your son reminds me of students that I have encountered with autism and a good friend's daughter who is autistic.

http://www.childbrain.com/pddq5.shtml

My wife has surfed the 'net ad nauseum looking for an explanation. We've taken him to a couple psychologists as well as a counselor. All agreed that he had no mental issue. However, the last person we saw suggested that he was "active alert". See the response above to VPI97 regarding that.

In simplistic terms, I just want this behavior to "go away" and for our child to show that he's human. I feel awful saying that - but it's true. Only fleetingly does it feel like you can communicate with him at a deeper level. But...he's also only 5. I need to keep that in mind.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I'm thinking it would be fantastic for CraigSca's boy to get a FOFC handle as soon as he's old enough to type.

As soon as he can type, Franklin . However, I'll have to get Skydog to delete the thread. I'd feel bad if he read this .

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'd feel bad if he read this .

FWIW, I don't think you've said anything here that other parents haven't felt on one occasion or another. You just happen to be having what appears to be a rougher than usual case of it.

And besides that ... PEOPLE WOULD LOSE POSTS !!!

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

As soon as he can type, Franklin . However, I'll have to get Skydog to delete the thread. I'd feel bad if he read this .

You can delete the thread yourself.

Anyhow, like Jon said, I don't think you'd need to feel bad about it, in the unlikely event that he did read it. Chances are, you are being and will continue to be honest with your son about your concerns regarding his behavior, and with any luck, he'll have mellowed a bit by the time he's reading and writing, anyway.

[korme]

DAD how could you make this a public affair??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*bites franklinnoble*

[pennywisesb]

2 words: Wooden Spoon. When my mom would utter those words after I was doing something wrong, I would clean up my act immediately. It just took once before I realized I never wanted to get the wooden spoon again. Those words still make me quiver to this day and I'm 23.

[lurker]

This does sound rough. I don't really have anything helpful to say except that my little brother was a lot like this as a kid. My parents took him to a doctor and said "our two daughters were nothing like this at his age." The doctor actually did say "He's a boy! It's to be expected." Anyway, he turned out to be a normal adult. Your idea of seeing what his teacher says is probably a good way to gauge if it's normal behavior.

But wow, this is scaring me from parenting. How do you guys have the energy?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

DAD how could you make this a public affair??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*bites franklinnoble*

GOLD

[Godzilla Blitz]

Craig: Many of the parents I see in schools turn quickly to medication for solutions to problems that seem behavioral to me, but I have seen cases where parents ignored serious problems with the rationalization that nothing was wrong. Keeping an objective, open mind is difficult. I'm glad to hear that things checked out well with the psychologists and that you continue to search for all kinds of answers. Sounds like you are doing what's best for your child.

[korme]

he'll be fine unless he grows up to own a pig farm. be weary of any man who owns a pig farm.

[Draft Dodger]

wow - my heart goes out to you Craig. I have no idea how my wife and I would handle it.

we've been so blessed with Graham (ironically, all the anecdotal evidence we've heard is that girls are the tempermental ones). he really never had much issue sleeping. when he was younger I was working late, and he'd sleep until 10am. Now that he's 2 1/2, he's getting up earlier - usually 7:30 when the wife gets up, but hangs out with us upstairs whiles she's getting ready for work. he naps from 1 to 4 in the afternoon, and then goes down at 8 or 8:30. the clockwork sleep schedule he's on is a tremendous help to us.

overally, he's a pretty great kid. he does tend to get himself worked up into little fits over the smallest of things (to the point that he surely doesn't remember WHY he was crying in the first place). his mother tends to do similar stuff (she definitely sweats the small stuff), so it's pretty understandable. but we're really working to make sure he knows how to keep his temper in check (when he's frustrated with a toy, we tell him to take a "deep breath" - it really tends to help him). we also are very careful not to let him win too many battles - he gets a cookie after lunch, for example, but not if he doesn't eat most of his plate. if he doesn't want to do something, he gets two choices - the thing we want him to do, or to go to his room. he'll always end up choosing A.

the only area we are having trouble is potty training. he just doesn't want to do it, and gets terrible upset if we force the issue. we've tried EVERYTHING. both his friends (9 and 13 months older) have been potty trained for some time, and he knows this. he knows everyone uses the potty. he knows he gets his beloved M&M's if he sits on the potty, but he just wont do it. the worst part is, when we do try, it puts him in a miserable funk of a mood. I tried several times yesterday, and the rest of the day he was just sad - the slightest little think made him upset. We know he'll eventually come around, but we would LOVE to have him trained by the time the new baby comes...but it doesn't look too good.

[CraigSca]

Actually, he's never shown any interest in starting a pig farm (phew!). He does, however, say he wants to become a football coach (but the team would have to play in the backyard of our house, as he's said that's the only place he'll coach). Other than that, he's told us he wants to work in a mine. He wants to mine diamonds and such - I guess he thinks that being a miner is a case of "finders keepers" .

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

2 words: Wooden Spoon. When my mom would utter those words after I was doing something wrong, I would clean up my act immediately. It just took once before I realized I never wanted to get the wooden spoon again. Those words still make me quiver to this day and I'm 23.

my wife says my mother in law used to break wooden spoons when the kids got her angry. used to snap them against the counter or something. I guess they went through quite a few of them...

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by lurker

But wow, this is scaring me from parenting. How do you guys have the energy?

Um, we don't. But, you have to do what you have to do. And....the beer helps

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

the only area we are having trouble is potty training. he just doesn't want to do it, and gets terrible upset if we force the issue. we've tried EVERYTHING. both his friends (9 and 13 months older) have been potty trained for some time, and he knows this. he knows everyone uses the potty. he knows he gets his beloved M&M's if he sits on the potty, but he just wont do it. the worst part is, when we do try, it puts him in a miserable funk of a mood. I tried several times yesterday, and the rest of the day he was just sad - the slightest little think made him upset. We know he'll eventually come around, but we would LOVE to have him trained by the time the new baby comes...but it doesn't look too good.

Potty training is tough no matter what your child is like. Obviously our 5 year old is potty trained, but he still does some weird stuff at times. Recently, he took a dump in our sump pump , because the cover looked like a toilet. You know, sometimes there's no explaining things - you just have to laugh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

the only area we are having trouble is potty training. he just doesn't want to do it, and gets terrible upset if we force the issue. we've tried EVERYTHING. both his friends (9 and 13 months older) have been potty trained for some time, and he knows this. he knows everyone uses the potty. he knows he gets his beloved M&M's if he sits on the potty, but he just wont do it.

You're probably gonna hate me for this, but ... 10 days, no accidents after day 3, one of the easiest things in the world as it turned out.

The trick? A double motivation.
1) We had an impending family vacation coming up. He wanted to play in the hotel pool, we agreed ... provided he was potty-trained well enough to be in swim trunks, not swim diapers.
2) "Big boy underwear". Spotting a 3-pack of Buzz Lightyear printed drawers was a big-time motivator (because they don't/didn't make those in pull-up diapers) for him. We must have bought 20 pair of underwear of favorite characters/themes for him in the first month or so, we were so relieved that the process went so easily.

While I'm a firm believer in "they'll mostly train themselves when the time is right", I figured these might be worth sharing just in case you haven't tried one of them already.

[Draft Dodger]

a fun (not) kid moment from today...

we have a cat that we are donating to the humane society (the short of the story is she's been peeing in the house). it was my job this morning to find the cat and get her in the crate and my wife was going to come home to get the cat and take her away.

this all happened RIGHT after the clusterfuck of the Brazilian Volleyball thread that was getting me a tad bit riled up. Graham and I went off to find the kitty. found the cat, who immediately used her magic kitty ESP to know that something was up, and bolted. I managed to get her cornered in the kitchen, but she started to let out this insanely loud screech-howl thing that was very disturbing...so disturbing, that Graham started to cry. now distracted, the cat got away. I went to console Graham, but there was no calming him down - he was majorly scared. but, he still wanted to go find the kitty.

well, I needed to call my wife to see if she could come home and help. unfortunately, everytime I dialed her number, he started to cry more. then he would calm down, and I'd pick up the phone and he'd cry again. wasn't that big of a deal, but there was a time crunch - Christine had to take the cat at a certain time, and Graham and I had to leave soon to go downtown for Toddler Two Time at the local library. finally get him calmed down enough to call my wife and leave a message for her. it's time to leave, but I still need to get the damn cat...

I go out to the family room to start packing stuff up...and noticed that one of our fish in the fishtank had died. wouldn't have been that big of a deal except that the other fish were eating it...and I didn't want that. so, I scooped out the dead fish, which Graham though was really neat...until I disappeared into the bathroom with it. He was frantic to get in to see wheret he fish had gone (*flush*) and so now was crying again. then he wanted to get the net and get more fish out. meanwhile, we still need to leave, and I haven't yet been able to corral this howling cat...

in the end, it all worked out (Christine came home and used HER special cat corraling powers - it took her about 30 seconds) and she drove us to the library. but, kind of hectic to do stuff with a screaming child babbling incoherently in your ear.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Five and a half years ago my wife and I had our first child - a boy. As any new parent can understand, we were popping wheelies we were so excited. Other than a slight bout with bilirubin issues our child was healthy, happy, etc.

Flash forward a few months. Having an infant is hard. You know you see the happy parents on TV, friends, family, etc. But, to be honest, that lack of sleep and the 24/7 duty of having an infant is time-consuming and tiring as you-know-what. At this point, our son is still not sleeping through the night and it's starting to take it's toll. Sleep would come around 11pm (after countless minutes rocking in our arms and in his car seat) but a couple hours later he would wake up ravenous. Rinse, lather, repeat throughout the night. This lasted until about the age of 9 months. Meanwhile, during the day, our son quickly grew tired of any activity (bouncy chair, lying on his stomach, being played with, etc.) and would begin moaning about a minute after the activity started. This moaning would also occur during the night during his "wake-ups". He also never really took an active interest in being held by his parents...after about 30 seconds he would begin to moan and push away. This was his infanthood.

Flash forward to now. At this point, he sleeps through the night (ha) but is a walking raw wound. Anything...in the SLIGHTEST, will set him off. Complete, unfettered temper tantrum. He will literally scream through clenched teeth in anger as if he is about to explode (just happened a few minutes ago) and try to retaliate against the slight by hitting (sometimes biting and/or spitting). For example, reminding him to flush the toilet. Here's the typical conversation:

"****, can you please flush the toilet? I think you forgot."

"I did flush."

"****, I know you didn't. Can you just do it for me?"

"I hate flushing the toilet."

Yeah, it stinks. Can you flush the toilet for me anyway? You have to after going to the bathroom."

"I already did."

"****, just humor me and do it again?"

Temper tantrum ensues. Mind you - this is 6am - he just got up and I'm trying to keep him quiet so he doesn't wake up his mother.

"I don't want to! I hate it! GRRRRR!"

At this point I am so angered by the situation. Just flush the G.D. toilet - you're 10 feet away from it and I'm downstairs in the other room. But, this is typical behavior throughout the day.

Three years ago my wife and I had a daughter. Only after having her do we see what parenting is "supposed" to be like. It's not arguments 24/7, it's not being yelled and screamed at, it's not constant lying. Only by having her do we see a sweet little child that cares about her family, friends, herself. Our son could not care less about anything except his current "need" whatever he deems that to be.

So...where am I going here? Over the past few years we had our son in for counseling because things are just not right. It's obvious.

Example #1: Visiting his out-of-state cousins. The excitement is obviously too much for him and he can't calm himself down. During a "game" with his male cousin, he bites his arm and spits on him. This was a month ago.

Example #2: Visiting other cousins, slightly older than he is. Seeing the older group of boys he wants to participate but doesn't know how. While they are playing basketball, he runs up to any one of them and begins to "play fight" and tackle them. Every game the kid plays has fighting and death in it - very rarely are the games innocuous. His cousins, of course, look at him like he's nuts.

Example #3: We've had a cat since day 1. However, he's now taking to picking up the cat, locking him in places and putting things over his head (our concern is the cat will suffocate). Our cat is pretty laid back so he doesn't really scratch or claw - he just takes it. Our concern is that this will escalate into hurting animals.

Bottom line: The child doesn't care about anything, anyone but himself. His sister could fall down the staircase screaming bloody murder and his concern is that he can't hear the TV. Only by having our daughter do we see that this complete lack of compassion isn't normal.

Now, I know a lot of you will say that this child just needs some discipline. I would agree if I were you. But, I've been there and done that. We set rules and try our best to have our children abide by them. However, this behavior is outside the lines. If (or more likely when) he decides to disobey he gets something of his taken away (and, of course, screams bloody murder - but he's not getting it back). The problem is, he still just doesn't understand - he looks at you like you're the meanest thing in the world and repeats the behavior again.

As far as disciplinary action let me give you an example: During the 2 to 3 year old stage, he would not go to bed. You develop the routine, read stories, brush teeth, yada yada, turn out the light, put him to bed. Within a minute he's up. "****, go back to bed." He doesn't. You go up there and PHYSICALLY have to put him back to bed. Finally after the fifth or sixth time (and after multiple threats - NO "something he wants" tomorrow") you finally lose it out of frustration and tell him he'll be smacked on the rear-end if he gets out of bed. Of course, he gets out of bed, and gets smacked. Problem is, he's now freaking out and this whole damn thing has escalated where he's telling you "you're mean, I hate you!", etc., etc. Of course, now he's further from falling asleep than ever. Meanwhile, my daughter went to bed at the same time and is already asleep.

Because of work I have to go on business trips every week. The majority of the time I come home and my wife is at her wit's end and near crying. This is my life.

I love my son, and I love my family. I just don't know what to do. My concern is that this will only get worse as he gets older. Again, more FOFC therapy - just thought I'd vent.

I agree that medications are overused at times, but they are also underused. They aren't used in cases where they need to be at times.

I don't think this is a case where they need to be used. This doesn't sound like a case of autism to me because this kid is trying to play basketball with other kids. He is trying to interact with other kids (even if it is inappropriately at times). It sounds like he is initiating and responding to joint attention.

I'll give you my friendly unsolicited advice. This kid sounds like he is pissed off. I don't have enough information to tell you about what, but from the limited information I have I would venture a guess. He is likely upset that Daddy has to leave for business trips every week. 5 and a half is a very hard time for a child to have parents traveling for a few days at a time. Mind you, I'm not criticizing you in any way. We all do what we have to do to financially support our families, but I'm just offering a possible answer from the information I have.

Therapy could help him deal with some of this information particularly if it is a skilled therapist. Preferably someone that is educated in play therapy would be indicated at that age.

Also, you may want to check out a book called "1, 2, 3 Magic: Effective Discipline for children aged 2 to 12" by Thomas W. Phelan, PhD. It might not work for your child, but I've worked with quite a good number of parents who this book has helped.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You're probably gonna hate me for this, but ... 10 days, no accidents after day 3, one of the easiest things in the world as it turned out.

While I'm a firm believer in "they'll mostly train themselves when the time is right", I figured these might be worth sharing just in case you haven't tried one of them already.

our friends' kid was the same way - one day, she just seemed to decide to do it, and never really had accidents. I'm sure Graham will be the same way...I just wish he'd get around to it. soon.

[Noop]

The best option... beat him. Let him know who is boss I have never gotten out of line with my parents because I use to catch beatdowns( not actual ones) I am still afraid of my mom and I am taller and weight more then she does... Spank your kid... the media makes it seem like it is a crime to correct your kid. Just my opinion...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

a fun (not) kid moment from today...

we have a cat that we are donating to the humane society (the short of the story is she's been peeing in the house). it was my job this morning to find the cat and get her in the crate and my wife was going to come home to get the cat and take her away.

this all happened RIGHT after the clusterfuck of the Brazilian Volleyball thread that was getting me a tad bit riled up. Graham and I went off to find the kitty. found the cat, who immediately used her magic kitty ESP to know that something was up, and bolted. I managed to get her cornered in the kitchen, but she started to let out this insanely loud screech-howl thing that was very disturbing...so disturbing, that Graham started to cry. now distracted, the cat got away. I went to console Graham, but there was no calming him down - he was majorly scared. but, he still wanted to go find the kitty.

well, I needed to call my wife to see if she could come home and help. unfortunately, everytime I dialed her number, he started to cry more. then he would calm down, and I'd pick up the phone and he'd cry again. wasn't that big of a deal, but there was a time crunch - Christine had to take the cat at a certain time, and Graham and I had to leave soon to go downtown for Toddler Two Time at the local library. finally get him calmed down enough to call my wife and leave a message for her. it's time to leave, but I still need to get the damn cat...

I go out to the family room to start packing stuff up...and noticed that one of our fish in the fishtank had died. wouldn't have been that big of a deal except that the other fish were eating it...and I didn't want that. so, I scooped out the dead fish, which Graham though was really neat...until I disappeared into the bathroom with it. He was frantic to get in to see wheret he fish had gone (*flush*) and so now was crying again. then he wanted to get the net and get more fish out. meanwhile, we still need to leave, and I haven't yet been able to corral this howling cat...

in the end, it all worked out (Christine came home and used HER special cat corraling powers - it took her about 30 seconds) and she drove us to the library. but, kind of hectic to do stuff with a screaming child babbling incoherently in your ear.

That's just too funny.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Noop

The best option... beat him. Let him know who is boss I have never gotten out of line with my parents because I use to catch beatdowns( not actual ones) I am still afraid of my mom and I am taller and weight more then she does... Spank your kid... the media makes it seem like it is a crime to correct your kid. Just my opinion...

I've given Graham a little spank from time to time, and it is definitely something we will use (CAREFULLY) as he and his little brother/sister grow up.

too early yet to really use it to it's full power. Graham's "trick" lately is to make changing the diaper a chore by "shutting the door" (closing his legs) as I try to put on the diaper. the other day when he was doing it, without thinking, I blurted out "do you want a swat?". unfortunately, his answer was "YES!". he didn't know what this swat thing was, but it sounded pretty cool for him. in fact, after I refused to give him one, he started to get upset, making the diaper changing even worse. sometimes, you just can't win...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I've given Graham a little spank from time to time, and it is definitely something we will use (CAREFULLY) as he and his little brother/sister grow up.

too early yet to really use it to it's full power. Graham's "trick" lately is to make changing the diaper a chore by "shutting the door" (closing his legs) as I try to put on the diaper. the other day when he was doing it, without thinking, I blurted out "do you want a swat?". unfortunately, his answer was "YES!". he didn't know what this swat thing was, but it sounded pretty cool for him. in fact, after I refused to give him one, he started to get upset, making the diaper changing even worse. sometimes, you just can't win...

Ugh... Bubba does the same thing... and he's only 10 months. Too young to spank at this point... he just doesn't get it.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Ugh... Bubba does the same thing... and he's only 10 months. Too young to spank at this point... he just doesn't get it.

you named your kid Bubba?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

you named your kid Bubba?

Nah, that's just his nickname. He's Franklin Noble Brown, Jr.... for some reason, one of us started calling him Bubba in the hospital as a newborn, and it sort of stuck.

(pix are at http://www.noblebrown.com/ )

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Nah, that's just his nickname. He's Franklin Noble Brown, Jr.... for some reason, one of us started calling him Bubba in the hospital as a newborn, and it sort of stuck.

(pix are at http://www.noblebrown.com/ )

you know, this is going to threadjack into a COMPLETELY different direction, but because of the name Franklin, I've always pictured you as being Black. Picturing you as the ladies man recommending to do it in the butt probably reinforced that a bit too.

there's a Bill Simmons column in here somewhere...

[oliegirl]

I have a 6 (almost 7) year old boy, and although he has had his moments of anger and temper tantrums - they have never been to that extent. And behaving that badly and throwing that kind of a temper tantrum hardly ever happens. I believe in the "boys will be boys" thing - but only to a point. If he is having trouble joining other kids and playing/making friends because of his actions, I definitely think you should consider taking the next step. I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with a child like that...only a parent could understand being so in love with your child, and so completely fed up with him all at the same time. Good Luck!

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

you know, this is going to threadjack into a COMPLETELY different direction, but because of the name Franklin, I've always pictured you as being Black. Picturing you as the ladies man recommending to do it in the butt probably reinforced that a bit too.

there's a Bill Simmons column in here somewhere...

What's funny is that's not the first time that's happened to me.

Many, many years ago, when I first met my ex-wife, she told her mother about me. When I met her for the first time, her first words were, "I thought for sure you were gonna be black with a name like that."

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

What's funny is that's not the first time that's happened to me.

Many, many years ago, when I first met my ex-wife, she told her mother about me. When I met her for the first time, her first words were, "I thought for sure you were gonna be black with a name like that."

actually, if I'd known your full name, I would have put money on your ethnicity.
and I would have lost.

[SunDevil]

I never had much of a father, my mom had to play both roles, with occasional input from my step-father. At least you guys are at least there for your children, and I wish the best for the original poster of this thread.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I have a 6 (almost 7) year old boy, and although he has had his moments of anger and temper tantrums - they have never been to that extent. And behaving that badly and throwing that kind of a temper tantrum hardly ever happens. I believe in the "boys will be boys" thing - but only to a point. If he is having trouble joining other kids and playing/making friends because of his actions, I definitely think you should consider taking the next step. I can't imagine how hard it is to deal with a child like that...only a parent could understand being so in love with your child, and so completely fed up with him all at the same time. Good Luck!

He just seems to have more rage than the other kids.

I was a really easy-going kid growing up. I mean, I would actually analyze as a young child the cause and effect of things. If it wasn't worth the consequences, it wasn't worth doing. My son has no concept of consequences because everything is in real-time for him - immediate gratification or nothing. He is just incapable of putting aside his own needs for something later or someone else.

Thanks for the well wishes

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Noop

The best option... beat him. Let him know who is boss I have never gotten out of line with my parents because I use to catch beatdowns( not actual ones) I am still afraid of my mom and I am taller and weight more then she does... Spank your kid... the media makes it seem like it is a crime to correct your kid. Just my opinion...

It's a tough decision. All the literature says "don't" but I was, and I can remember having that fear in me as a young child (so much so I wouldn't do the things that caused me being spanked). However, in the few times where my anger has gotten the best of me, striking this child has done NOTHING but make things worse. Again, he just doesn't put 2 and 2 together and realize there are consequences to actions. Striking this child only confuses the hell out of him - as if you're hitting him for tying his shoes and brushing his teeth. He just doesn't get it.

For example - I can "lose it" and smack him for not staying in bed. I can then place him in bed and, while screaming (partly because he's in pain, but also because he is what he is) he will get up and get out of bed again. Spanking this child does nothing.

[Noop]

No book can tell you how to live your life. Each person is different... if I was raising a child last thing I would do is read book from someone who doesn't know anything about your kid. I repeat if you had set the line str8 from when he was young I would reckon he wouldn't be doing that. I don't know parents these days want to be your friend instead of mom or dad kids have enough friends. I can speak with my parents and they can offer advice when I seek or they see I need it. But I dont go tellling my parents about the girls I like or anything like that although my mom has read alot of letters girls have written me. I would perfer them like that then to have someone try to be my buddy.... This is just my opinion I have no degree or anything to show what I am talking only common sense.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by lurker

But wow, this is scaring me from parenting. How do you guys have the energy?

We've got two kids (one is two and half years and the other is ten months), and my favorite time of the week is the time I spend with my kids. Weekends can be tiring, sure, and it gets frustrating when they have rough days, but the happiness outweighs everything else by a ten to one margin. There are moments of overwhelming joy that are so powerful that they almost hurt. And it just keeps getting better. They can talk more, understand and generate more complicated humor, interact more with the environment, and just plain do more each week. They consistently crack me up. Although it was exhausting adjusting to one and then two kids, it's getting to the point where more and more often I find I get energy from my kids. Having kids is by far the best thing I have ever done. I think the majority of parents will say the same thing. They've taught me I'm capable of giving more love than I ever thought I had inside me.

Even though Craig has had a rough time, I would think if he stays on top of things, doesn't label his son, continues to believe in him and love him, everything will turn out well in the long run, and things can change overnight with kids.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by Noop

No book can tell you how to live your life. Each person is different... if I was raising a child last thing I would do is read book from someone who doesn't know anything about your kid. I repeat if you had set the line str8 from when he was young I would reckon he wouldn't be doing that. I don't know parents these days want to be your friend instead of mom or dad kids have enough friends. I can speak with my parents and they can offer advice when I seek or they see I need it. But I dont go tellling my parents about the girls I like or anything like that although my mom has read alot of letters girls have written me. I would perfer them like that then to have someone try to be my buddy.... This is just my opinion I have no degree or anything to show what I am talking only common sense.

You evidentally know an aweful lot about five year olds.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

You evidentally know an aweful lot about five year olds.

Didn't I say it is just my opinion or did that whoosh over you head?

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by Noop

Didn't I say it is just my opinion or did that whoosh over you head?

You also said it was "common sense." Regardless of whether it was an opinion or not I get the feeling you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to little kids.