Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Kodos]

My pet peeve is restaurants that offer a black bean burger and think that covers the vegetarians. No need for any other options...

[PilotMan]

I guess that I should have posted in here about all our trials and tribulations. The Wife has numerous food allergies, she's vegan, can't eat many foods that vegans can, such as quinoa, nuts, avocado, many grains in general. She tries to avoid gluten, but she's not allergic, but it does cause her face to break out and her stomach to swell up. So it's a sometimes food for her.

We took a vacation to Cancun to a resort that we've been to multiple times. They did amazing taking care of us this time. We sat down with the assistant supervisor for food and beverage every single day, along with the chef from the restaurant we were going to that night, and his host staff. Every day. And he would basically ask, what do you want to eat, and they would try their hardest to make that happen. It was a total VIP experience.

More to the recent conversation, I've been in downtown Denver for 3 weeks, and she's been staying with me for the past 2, and she has been so excited to be able to eat a plethora of vegan options. Normally we can do Mexican or Asian pretty easily in the Cincy area, and there are some other options but they are very spread out in the city. In Denver there are 2 fully vegan restaurants, and a bakery within walking distance, plus we've eaten Puruvian and Mediterranean along with the standard fare Mexican and Asian (she's really enjoyed the Pho we're close to).

Not once has she had to eat a burger as the only option, and she's been loving it. She's gotten to be such a great cook, that she appreciates the food that much more, although, she can recognize a poorly planned dish too as she has quite discerning tastes, but she'll still manage. I was worried initially about her food, but happy that we've been able to explore lots of different options that normally aren't available.

[Kodos]

See The True Cost of Your Cheap Chicken - NY Times

I didn't go looking for this, but I did watch it when I came across it. The things we do to chickens and the farmers who produce them in order to have cheap chicken at the store and in restaurants are horrifying.

[thesloppy]

I'm not vegetarian or vegan in any other manner, but I have pretty much stopped eating chicken simply because the amount of suffering they go through versus the enjoyment I get out of eating chicken seems entirely out of balance. I am still super comfortable eating all the other, tastier animals.

[Jas_lov]

I saw that NYT video this morning. Are cows and pigs treated better than chickens? I still eat some meat but I've cut it down quite a bit to just a few times a month. Seems to be working better for me not getting that lethargic feeling after a big meat meal. And with meat prices rising it's cheaper to cut down on it.

[Kodos]

From videos that I've seen over the years, none of the factory-farmed animals are treated well. Smaller farmers may treat their animals more humanely, but the bulk of the meat in our food supply comes from some variety of factory farm.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Kodos

From videos that I've seen over the years, none of the factory-farmed animals are treated well. Smaller farmers may treat their animals more humanely, but the bulk of the meat in our food supply comes from some variety of factory farm.

Speaking only from my experience in the dairy industry, I’d say that so-called factory farms tend to do a better job in terms of animal comfort. Dairy cattle that aren’t comfortable don’t produce milk. Some of my biggest frustrations before I quit were my inability to afford changes that would have benefited cow comfort and being able to staff 24 hours per day so that cow that decides to have a calf at 2:00 AM when it’s -30F are properly cared for. Larger farms are almost entirely built in the last 20-25 years when we’ve learned so much about how to keep cows comfortable. Larger dairy farms can afford this. Smaller ones are often utilizing facilities from the 1950s that just aren’t cow friendly.

I can’t speak for chicken as I know little about it. I have heard stories about free range chicken farms that open up a door to allow the chickens outside but most would rather just stay inside.

[Kodos]

Just trying oat milk for the first time. It's decent enough that I think it could successfully replace milk when I eat my Special K with Berries. Don't think I would ever want to drink a glass of it, but then I haven't had a glass of milk in going on 10 years.

[QuikSand]

While I don't love using bars/shakes as a staple, it is awfully convenient to keep some (bars) around my at-home work area. I still muddle around with many different brands in search of the combination I like.

-plant based (yes, I'm still 100% after ten years or so)
-at least 10g of protein
-ideally fairly low sugar (I can live with sugar alcohols, but prefer not to)
-taste at least okay

Thread prompted as I'm at the moment finishing a "No Cow" brand bar that claims to be "Lemon Meringue Pie" flavor, but I would guess "sand" as one of the top ingredients, as is sometimes the case without a lot of crap added to cover up the proteins used in this sort of thing.

I was at an out-of-town Trader Joe's recently and got two of their branded bars that I liked a lot, but Mrs Q said she didn't see them at her recent trip to our closest outlet.

Any tips? I have tried a lot of these.

[QuikSand]

These "Simply Protein" bars are selling at our area Costco for something like $18 for the 15 multi-flavor pack.

They are definitely of the variety that tastes vaguely like a Rice Krispies bar, but a bit grainy (it's soy protein). But they are not awful, have 15g protein, and low sugar (via sugar alcohols). Not a bullseye but at the Costco price, better than the Amazon price linked above, a decent option.

[QuikSand]

ugh, erythritol news

[flere-imsaho]

For those looking for more information regarding QS's post: Erythritol: Zero-calorie sweetener linked to heart attack, stroke, study finds | CNN

[Kodos]

I basically don't trust any artificial sweetener.

[QuikSand]

Thus far, Stevia seems to be an exception to the "don't trust" standard... but it is often bundled with another sweetener to give it a crystalline texture that looks and feels more like sugar. Mine is mixed with erythritol, naturally.

[GrantDawg]

One of many things that sre going to kill me. It will kill me less fast than sugar, so.....

[Edward64]

I don't know how reliable econotimes.com is but one question answered

Coca-Cola clarifies Coke Zero, Diet Coke do not contain sugar substitute linked to health woes - EconoTimes

Coca-Cola clarified that Coke Zero and Diet Coke do not contain the sugar replacement called erythritol but instead have aspartame.

According to Coca-Cola’s official website, aspartame is used in some of its products including Coke Zero Sugar, Diet Coke, Diet Coke Feisty Cherry, Diet Barq’s, Fanta Zero, Fresca, Gold Peak Diet Tea, Mello Yello Zero, Minute Maid Light, Pibb Zero, Seagrams Ginger Ale Zero Sugar, and Sprite Zero.

Aspartame provides low or no sugar calories option.

Unlike erythritol, aspartame hasn’t been linked with any serious side effects or health problems.

I have been using stevia instead of sugar for my coffee (3-5 cups a day).

[QuikSand]

So... I'm among the people who got the ball rolling in this thread some time ago. It's been a long enough time to feel significant, and I will sua sponte share the essentials of what I have and have not done, over the last 11 years or so.

How I Got Started

In my mid-40s, with young children, I was hearing from my primary care doctor that I needed to ramp up my blood pressure medication to a higher dose. My bloodline is not favorable, my dad didn't make it out of his 60s, his dad didn't make it out of his 50s, and in my 40s (with many trappings of a high stress lifestyle to boot) I felt I was on a similar path.

For multiple reasons, I became persuaded that a whole foods, plant based diet could be the change I needed, and committed to doing it. I chose the day of the 2011 Belmont Stakes (a decadent-foods travel day each year back then) as my sign-off from eating animal products. The following day I quit cold turkey.

What Really Happened

I wanted to lose weight, but also wanted to improve other health metrics as well. So, I accompanied the diet change with some lifestyle improvements, but not dramatic ones. I remained "reasonably active" to "active" through the first several years of doing this.

I wanted to commit to both parts of the dietary change, but the pursuit of whole grains and insisting on far less processed foods proved to be really difficult for me. The clear line about not eating animal-derived foods was, oddly enough, easier to do -- in part because it was so clear what was okay and what was not.

So, approaching 12 years later, I am still eating a fully vegan diet. I have had a handful of missteps (like, learning after the fact that something had milk ingredients, etc) but not a single "day off" or anything consciously violating the plant based principles.

However, I have absolutely slipped in the pursuit of whole foods, whole grains, un-processed, and pure form foods. I am an aggressive consumer of various plant-based burgers and nuggets, which are, truth be told, hyper-processed foods in the same way that their animal counterparts are. That's not necessarily "healthy" in the most important ways, even if they do sidestep the downsides of eating high in the food chain (which I still believe to be a worthy pursuit for health purposes).

So... a split success here. Plat Based. Not Whole Foods. Basically: I eat the Impossible Whopper (synthetic), I always hold the mayo (eggs), but I do eat the white flour bun (over-processed).

My Health, Over Time

I was 42 when my triggering event (a hike in my BP meds) started my gears turning. Dad had dies a couple years before. 43 when I pulled the trigger, and made the lifestyle/diet switch.

Around the first of the year in 2012, I switched to a doctor who specialized in this sort of diet. After a battery of blood tests, she showed my triglycerides WAY down, and my cholesterol levels also well down into the pretty normal range, bordering on "healthy." The FoK people talk about getting you to "heart attack proof" and these are some of the measurables that underlie that. A really good feeling.

My blood pressure was down as well, to the point where she took me entirely off medication for it. This was also a psychological success for me, a feeling of accomplishment.

And, related, I had lost some weight. I'd guess without notes that I was down maybe 15 pounds from my pre-decision peak... not a huge loss, but meaningful.

So... with this notion more or less coalesced for me as "it's working," I committed to figure out out what I could/would eat at all the restaurants near my office. (In my work, I do a fair amount of social eating/drinking, so this is a big deal for me) Eventually figured out what places were me-friendly and what places were less so.

Somewhere in this stretch (like in 2013 or so) I did have a parallel spike in my attention to better fitness overall, and THAT (more deliberate exercise, more flat out disciplined calorie counting) led to some real weight loss that lasted a year or so -- like -40 pounds from my pre-decision peak. I suffered a leg injury that knocked me off my walking/jogging routine, and (I'm making excuses here as I type...need to cut that out) really just neve regained that level of discipline for a long stretch. So I am back to a mildly unhealthy weight, but still something like 15-20 pounds below my pre-decision peak. So, a bit better, but definitely not the peak of which I am capable.

One Scare Along The Way

In 2016, I had a scary incident... I will spare the tick tock style replay, but it turned out to be a AFib incident. In an ambulance on the way to a hospital, I was told that my pulse was 180. It took medication overnight and they were just an hour or two away from scheduling a "paddles" intervention (that sounded scary as shit) when it dissipated, as they had advised it could/should.

Follow-up with cardiologist, lots of stress testing, etc. No signs of any real defect. Apparently this fact pattern happens fairly commonly. Doc effectively says "take a beta blocker and a low dose aspirin every day, and we'll see you once a year... pretty good chance this never happens to you again." And it has not.

I believe my AFib was a by product of apnea, and I have since gotten a CPAP which I am apparently incapable of wearing for very long, it ends up on the floor overnight.

And The Latest Chapter

So, I made an appointment with a new cardiologist recently. My weirdo vegan doctor retired, I needed a new PCP, and I had gotten out of the habit of checking in on heart stuff.

New doc talks me through things. Not worried about the AFib, really, fine with the low-tier meds for that. Wants me to double down on sleep stuff, and I'll see a sleep specialist soon.

BP is back up into borderline worries, and he wants me on Losartan. I am no going to disagree with this, but it is... discouraging. I have made my peace with it...and now more or less feel like my dietary changes bought me a full decade of time, but I'm kinda back (at age 55) to where I previously was at age 42.

So, that's my current health status. Still could stand to lose weight, and that would likely carry residual benefits with at least some of the other things mentioned (apnea, blood pressure). Writing this, I am hoping, might serve oddly as a kick in the ass to get back to it -- took two good brisk 3.5m exercise walks with my 14yo the last two days and enjoyed it, I'd like to get back into that as a cycle more days than not. That and dropping stupid idle snacking would probably get me back to losing a pound every ten days or so, truth be told.

Anyway

That's my story with this stuff. I believe my psychological makeup is probably fairly common, but it was WAY easier for me to just stick to a hard and fast rule/system than it ever has been to "just do better." Once I concluded it was just too hard to insist on whole grains and I'd just order the pasta... my ability to really, really stick with the whole-foods side of the diet was doomed. But sticking to the no-animals stuff was easier to do, just because it's a clear bright line.

So, I have done part of this really well. I think it has brought me health benefits that I really wanted. I am convinced that I am going to see a lot more of my kids' lives than I likely would have without doing this. I feel good about that.

I certainly could improve, and hope that I have the resolve to do so in the months ahead. I don't think that I am even going to commit to trying to live up to the full whole-foods side of the diet, but if I can remain fully vegan (likely) and just whip myself into better eating/activity habits overall, I think that's a worthy and achievable goal for the next year.

I am going to figure each year's Belmont Stakes is my check-in with myself, as the working anniversary of my switch to "doing better." Tally ho.

[Edward64]

I have continually failed to keep to a "diet" (of any kind). So congrats on your accomplishment.

[Kodos]

My story is pretty similar to Quik's. At age 43, I started getting some wake up calls after snoozing through a decade plus of gradual weight gain. My blood pressure started creeping up, which was alarming to me, because in my days as a runner, I had had low blood pressure and a low resting heart rate. At the time (2013), I was having a 500-calorie blueberry muffin for breakfast most days and washing it down with a bottle of Cherry Coke. In the afternoon, I'd have another Cherry Coke. I was averaging 2 twenty-ounce bottles and 1 can of Cherry Coke a day. I was also a meat and potatoes kind of guy. My weight peaked around 215 or so.

In late 2011, I watched Forks Over Knives. It'd been in my Netflix queue for a while, but I finally got around to watching it. (I think QuikSand or maybe someone else on the board had recommended it.) My post-meat life started soon after. I tried being vegan for a while, but found it too restrictive because eggs and cheese are in everything. Eventually, I settled on being a vegetarian. No meat of any kind: no beef, pork, chicken, fish, or anything that ever had a face. I've gone back and forth on eggs, but lately, I eat them only if there isn't another option on the menu that works for me. In the back of my mind, I do consider eggs to be cheating. Ultimately, eggs are still an animal product. I think I will end up outlawing them for myself at some point. Like Quik, my downfall is processed junk food. I love carbs: pretzels, Goldfish crackers, etc. If I cut them out, I'm sure my weight would drop closer to my goal. But I've already cut out so many things that I love to eat (chicken wings, steak, lobster). It's hard to cut the carbs too.

In 2013, I'd been trying to cut back on the soda for a long time. I would have a short period where I imposed strict limits, but there was inevitably limit-creep and exceptions introduced until I was back to 2.5 a day. I tried Cherry Coke Zero, but that was no good. I didn't like the aftertaste. I'd always said I would stop drinking soda entirely before I'd switch to diet soda, and on March 8, 2013, I quit soda for good. I have not intentionally drank a sip of soda since. (Early on, there were a couple of autopilot errors where someone else's drink was next to mine and I took a sip before realizing my error. And it was always some diet crap that wasn't even enjoyable.)

Also in 2013, I successfully reintroduced running into my life. Going forward, I built a bit on the previous year in terms of mileage. Eventually, in fall 2016, I ran the Hartford Marathon and ran just over 1,000 miles for the year. Unfortunately, I accumulated nagging leg issues that eventually sidelined me from running. I have tried to start again each spring, but the leg issues return. So in 2020, during the pandemic, I got a Peloton with one of the Covid stimulus checks, and that has been my main form of exercise ever since. Last November, I also introduced weight lifting a couple times a week.

These days I'm around 203 pounds. I'd like to get back into the 180s like I did when I was vegan and training for a marathon, but getting under 200 is my near-term goal. Like Quik, I find it much easier to outlaw certain foods than to try to limit them. The bright line is easy for me to obey. I'm nearly 53 years old now, and I am not on any prescription medications. On the Peloton, I nearly always finish in the top 10% of riders. I think going vegetarian, along with becoming more active and giving up soda has had real and lasting good effects on my health. If I had stayed the course, I imagine I would be in my 240s (or worse) now and dealing with various health issues.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

One Scare Along The Way

In 2016, I had a scary incident... I will spare the tick tock style replay, but it turned out to be a AFib incident. In an ambulance on the way to a hospital, I was told that my pulse was 180. It took medication overnight and they were just an hour or two away from scheduling a "paddles" intervention (that sounded scary as shit) when it dissipated, as they had advised it could/should.

Follow-up with cardiologist, lots of stress testing, etc. No signs of any real defect. Apparently this fact pattern happens fairly commonly. Doc effectively says "take a beta blocker and a low dose aspirin every day, and we'll see you once a year... pretty good chance this never happens to you again." And it has not.

I believe my AFib was a by product of apnea, and I have since gotten a CPAP which I am apparently incapable of wearing for very long, it ends up on the floor overnight.

I have had two episodes of lone A-Fib, once when I was 35 after basically inflicting alcohol poisoning on myself at a party. Resolved in the Er after being hydrated, didn't even need a IV of meds.

Second when I was 43 (17 years ago now) when I was at the tail end of working in a VERY stressful job, to the point where my exercise was about 1/3 of my usual routine AND I started smoking because of this after not having touched a cigarette for almost 14 years, when i was a social smoker.

The second episode did require I get paddled and it was scary as shit, they knocked me out, zapped me (with wife in the room) I came to. The lasting impression i have from this, is as I woke up, the ER doc, with a look on his face, that I can only describe as a cross between relief and mild surprise, said "Well it worked" Like the outcome could have been much different.

Obviously this was a huge wake up call, so immediately quit smoking, took a 30 K plus pay cut and got another job and went 100% back into my routine of exercise and diet, which I had been allowing to get away from me as a stress coping mechanism, instead of a cigarette.

All of my tests showed the same thing, no sign of defect, good exercise tolerance, etc. Only slight abnormality was my EKG showed a grade 1 right bundle branch block. For those with no underlying condition/risk factors, this is generally a benign condition, but it does make you more susceptible to A-Fib.

Because of this, I need to exercise special caution not doing certain things, drinking too much, avoiding anything that stimulates my heart, like energy drinks, nicotine, etc. So in my case, it was things I did to myself that brought this on and I have not had any issues for 17 years. I see a cardiologist annually, get a stress echo every 3 years, everything is good, so it is just a matter of me being smart.

So diet, exercise 5-6 days a week and stay away from the crap above. Hopefully yours is also just a case of lone A-Fib as well.

[korme]

I took a similar path after watching FOK, with the added assist that my brother was already vegan so I had someone to lean on for advice and whatnot.

I would say my diet choices have been somewhat of a roller coaster, with the expansion of plant-based products flooding the market (great!). When Beyond and Impossible really took off with more offerings than just burgers, my freezer was packed with all of the offerings. I would often make justifications with the processed junk, thinking I need to support these companies as much as possible to support the plant-based companies.

This year I've been much more in tune with my body, and my diet. I've scraped the breakfast sandwiches I would make for a fruit smoothie, oats, or a fig bar every morning. The only thing in my freezer at the moment is frozen vegetables and frozen fruit. My pantry has no chips or snacks, other than nuts and seeds. I reserve my junk food choices when I'm out - there are so many vegan restaurants in Cincinnati now that it is easy to indulge whenever I need to.

I cook daily, being single it's usually some easy mix of rice/beans/tofu but I'll mix it up with an occasionally fun, new recipe (I've decided I'm making a cinnamon apple quesadilla tonight WHAT). I love trying out new things - I've just recently been making my own cashew cheese and experimenting with the right balances. I ran my first 10k this past Saturday, and I'm looking forward to doing more, longer races.

--

Question for QS on a vegan diet. How has this affected your morality when it comes to animals and the environment? I switched to this diet for health at first but it's hard to escape the other stuff, and now I first identify as vegan for the animals, and the health stuff is secondary. Watch Dominion and try to say otherwise, it's impossible.

[flere-imsaho]

Thanks to QS and the rest of you for the write-ups!

Keep trying with the CPAP, QS. I too had trouble in the beginning with taking it off in the middle of the night, but if you stick with it, it'll eventually become second nature and the health benefits (at least for me) are tremendous.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by korme

Question for QS on a vegan diet. How has this affected your morality when it comes to animals and the environment? I switched to this diet for health at first but it's hard to escape the other stuff, and now I first identify as vegan for the animals, and the health stuff is secondary.

It's a good question.

I think I, predictably, found that my openness to animal rights argument expanded once I had less blood on my hands, so to speak. I am very deliberately avoiding being a proselytizing vegan, but I do get coaxed into these conversations from time to time, and I'm willing to at least take up the "doesn't it seem weird the way we think about these things?" angle sometimes (like why eat cows/pigs without hesitation but never ever dogs/cats?).

I haven't fully stopped using animal products elsewhere, but I mentally draw the line at "when there's no realistic alternative." So, I still wear wool suits and leather shoes in formal settings, but for casual time nearly everything I wear is either a carryover from before I started this, or is animal-free. I have a couple of cheapass synthetic belts that are fine for a hangout at a bar, and the rest is pretty easy, so I do it.

But I self-identify as "I did this for health reasons and am glad I did" in the main.

[Kodos]

I definitely fall in the "I did it for myself first" camp too. But a great side benefit is that there is no longer a conflict between having a general love for animals and what I choose to eat. Now those values are aligned and no mental gymnastics are needed to validate what I eat. Hell, I'm much nicer even to bugs these days. I try to usher them out of my house rather than just killing them. My policy is I try not to kill anything that isn't threatening me or my loved ones in some way. Wasps still get killed if they venture into my house.

[QuikSand]

The ongoing search for snack bars has led me to these two for now:

Access denied

My local Harris Teeter had Munk Pack on BOGO this week, and I like them...the monkfruit sweetness is fine by me, I know some don't like it.

Plant Based Protein Bars | Buy Barebells Online | Quick Delivery

These are arouns $2 each at my local Trader Joe's and taste like candy to me. Some sugar alcohols if those bug you.

[Ksyrup]

I bought non-erythritol monkfruit drops to try in my tea and I'm not sure I like it. My wife love Truvia and I don't, and it has some Truvia flavor/aftertaste to me. But I'm going to keep using it sometimes just to cut back on the Splenda.