The Trump Presidency – 2016

[tarcone]

Russians should be banned from anything Nuclear. they are dangerous.

EDIT: Just watched Chernobyl

EDIT, EDIT: Im naive

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Agreed. If this were a sensible administration, those rounded up would be detained humanely and their cases would be expedited, allowing them or family members to find the necessary paperwork and get them cleared. Of course, this is not a sensible administration, and the camp in Louisiana probably resembles the prison from Cool Hand Luke.

Do you think they should be able to round up anyone and detain them until family members show a birth certificate? Plenty of people get pulled over without a license and don't get taken in to prove their citizenship.

Also didn't see any executives coming out in handcuffs? Surely they are being arrested too for committing the crime of hiring illegal immigrants?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also didn't see any executives coming out in handcuffs? Surely they are being arrested too for committing the crime of hiring illegal immigrants?

If they were hiring people without any paperwork, it should be easy to have probable cause on the management/owners. If there was paperwork, it should be very difficult to just round up 680 people for not having legal status.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Do you think they should be able to round up anyone and detain them until family members show a birth certificate? Plenty of people get pulled over without a license and don't get taken in to prove their citizenship.

Also didn't see any executives coming out in handcuffs? Surely they are being arrested too for committing the crime of hiring illegal immigrants?

Round them up? No, not a fan of that. Detain them when they have been detained for other reasons, such as doing something illegal? Don't have a problem with that.

Anyone who is a naturalized citizen or a resident alien or on a visa should have that stuff nearby. I feel the same way at the restaurant when someone orders an alcoholic drink but doesn't have their ID.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Round them up? No, not a fan of that. Detain them when they have been detained for other reasons, such as doing something illegal? Don't have a problem with that.

Anyone who is a naturalized citizen or a resident alien or on a visa should have that stuff nearby. I feel the same way at the restaurant when someone orders an alcoholic drink but doesn't have their ID.

Why doesn't this apply to born citizens like myself? Why don't I have to have my birth certificate on me at all times? How do they know I'm not an illegal?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If they were hiring people without any paperwork, it should be easy to have probable cause on the management/owners. If there was paperwork, it should be very difficult to just round up 680 people for not having legal status.

Zero chance they didn't know what they were doing.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Round them up? No, not a fan of that. Detain them when they have been detained for other reasons, such as doing something illegal? Don't have a problem with that.

Anyone who is a naturalized citizen or a resident alien or on a visa should have that stuff nearby. I feel the same way at the restaurant when someone orders an alcoholic drink but doesn't have their ID.

Most IDs aren't proof of citizenship. There are some other options, but for most people that means a birth certificate or a passport. Not many people could prove citizenship on demand, it just isn't common to carry those documents.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why doesn't this apply to born citizens like myself? Why don't I have to have my birth certificate on me at all times? How do they know I'm not an illegal?

You should have some citizenship proof, but police are usually going off of reasonable suspicion, and you won't feel like anyone but a natural born citizen to them.

Call it profiling, if you like, but it's reality.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Most IDs aren't proof of citizenship. There are some other options, but for most people that means a birth certificate or a passport. Not many people could prove citizenship on demand, it just isn't common to carry those documents.

But if it's possible your citizenship will be questioned, it is sensible to have those documents quickly available, so that the necessary databases could be quickly consulted. They don't solve the problem, or provide real proof in and of themselves, but it's stupid not to have them if you're reasonably sure your ctiizenship could be questioned. Just common sense.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You should have some citizenship proof, but police are usually going off of reasonable suspicion, and you won't feel like anyone but a natural born citizen to them.

Call it profiling, if you like, but it's reality.

What's the melanin cut-off point for when you have to carry your birth certificate with you? There are plenty of illegal immigrants from Asia and Europe here. If this is really about fighting illegal immigration, you'd think everyone would face the same scrutiny.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What's the melanin cut-off point for when you have to carry your birth certificate with you? There are plenty of illegal immigrants from Asia and Europe here. If this is really about fighting illegal immigration, you'd think everyone would face the same scrutiny.

Well to answer your question:


But on the other hand what do you think the ratio is between illegal immigrants from Europe and illegal immigrants from central America?

And I would hope that these raids are being conducted with some kind of intelligence behind them saying there were a lot of illegal immigrants working at these places. And if any of the business owners knowingly hired illegals immigrants then they should be arrested too.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What's the melanin cut-off point for when you have to carry your birth certificate with you? There are plenty of illegal immigrants from Asia and Europe here. If this is really about fighting illegal immigration, you'd think everyone would face the same scrutiny.

#thepriceoffreedom

[stevew]

My wife got about 6.5 weeks of summer vacation as a teacher. There’s basically no benefit to being in the profession

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But if it's possible your citizenship will be questioned, it is sensible to have those documents quickly available, so that the necessary databases could be quickly consulted. They don't solve the problem, or provide real proof in and of themselves, but it's stupid not to have them if you're reasonably sure your ctiizenship could be questioned. Just common sense.

It's possible for any of us. Do we want to live in a country where federal authorities demand we produce our papers whenever they choose?

Not to mention that it's not illegal to not have a passport and getting a birth certificate takes time and money.

[cuervo72]

I don't have a passport, and in our house heaven knows where the heck a copy of my birth certificate may be.

[stevew]

If ICE is going to randomly raid people, at least they could go after Uber/Grubhub/Lyft/DoorDash drivers who don’t actually pay much/any tax. The farm workers contribute something.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's possible for any of us. Do we want to live in a country where federal authorities demand we produce our papers whenever they choose?

Not to mention that it's not illegal to not have a passport and getting a birth certificate takes time and money.

Like gun control, this is one of the things where I feel like most of the rest of the (Western) world sort of watches on in disbelief. I hope there's a reckoning in the near future and the folks behind these decisions are taken to task, but more likely it just gets swept under the rug and and people in the future will be wondering why the hell nobody did anything about it at the time.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

But on the other hand what do you think the ratio is between illegal immigrants from Europe and illegal immigrants from central America?

So this isn't about illegal immigration? Lot of illegal immigrants here from Europe and Asia. Lot of overstayed work and student visas (which have a rather bad history in our country of late).

You could raid any maid service in Chicago and find dozens of undocumented workers from Eastern Europe. That isn't going to happen and we both know why.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So this isn't about illegal immigration? Lot of illegal immigrants here from Europe and Asia. Lot of overstayed work and student visas (which have a rather bad history in our country of late).

You could raid any maid service in Chicago and find dozens of undocumented workers from Eastern Europe. That isn't going to happen and we both know why.

I really have no idea what you are talking about sometimes

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I really have no idea what you are talking about sometimes

I am being told that not having proof of citizenship on you is grounds to believe you are here illegally. That this is done to stop illegal immigration.

So I'm asking why I am not asked for my birth certificate when I am pulled over. If not having a passport or birth certificate on us is evidence of being illegal, why would you not haul in anyone who doesn't have it and demand they verify? Were the executives at this chicken plant also asked to produce their passport or birth certificate during the raid?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I really have no idea what you are talking about sometimes

You don't see white illegal immigrants being told to go back to their country and you don't see ICE raids on Russian, Chinese, or other Asian and European populations.

There's a huge human trafficking issue in Eastern European and Asian populations, but unless it involves the Patriots owner no one gives a shit. However, human trafficking across the southern border is one of the biggest threats to our country.

[RainMaker]

The tech industry is filled with people from Asia on overstayed visas. Employers love it because they can get cheaper talent which hurts skilled workers in this country. Zero effort being made to stop it.

[RainMaker]

Also the Mississippi raid has more to do with the dipshit owner benig mad that he lost a lawsuit and wanted to send a message.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So this isn't about illegal immigration? Lot of illegal immigrants here from Europe and Asia. Lot of overstayed work and student visas (which have a rather bad history in our country of late).

You could raid any maid service in Chicago and find dozens of undocumented workers from Eastern Europe. That isn't going to happen and we both know why.

For Mexico and south is 73% (+3% for Caribbean area). Europe is 5% and Asia 16%.

Profile of the Unauthorized Population - US | migrationpolicy.org

Sure it's about unauthorized immigrants. And yes, the focus is more on the brown vs the yellow/black/white but that's what the demographics show and where the majority of the conundrum is.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

For Mexico and south is 73% (+3% for Caribbean area). Europe is 5% and Asia 16%.

Profile of the Unauthorized Population - US | migrationpolicy.org

Sure it's about unauthorized immigrants. And yes, the focus is more on the brown vs the yellow/black/white but that's what the demographics show and where the majority of the conundrum is.

If it was about unauthorized immigrants, you would ask everyone. Takes but a minute to demand a birth certificate or passport. The resources are already in place, why not use them?

And while we're at it, why not arrest the people who hired all these unauthorized workers? It is a crime. Cops will tell you that it's better to bust the dealer than all the users.

This is about stopping illegal immigrants after all, right?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's possible for any of us. Do we want to live in a country where federal authorities demand we produce our papers whenever they choose?

Not to mention that it's not illegal to not have a passport and getting a birth certificate takes time and money.

I agree that I would not be able to quickly produce a birth certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate when asked because they are at home or in a safe deposit box.

I do think its reasonable for them to ask for SSN & Drivers License which (I think) will allow them to check pretty quick if someone is able to work legally. From reading the various articles, do we know if ICE asked for proof of citizenship or proof that they could work legally?

Yes, I agree if this was systemic that the owners/managers should be held accountable.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If it was about unauthorized immigrants, you would ask everyone. Takes but a minute to demand a birth certificate or passport. The resources are already in place, why not use them?

And while we're at it, why not arrest the people who hired all these unauthorized workers? It is a crime. Cops will tell you that it's better to bust the dealer than all the users.

This is about stopping illegal immigrants after all, right?

I do think its about unauthorized immigration. Based on your questioning, I assume you think its about racism?

Regarding birth certificate or passport, answered in prior post. I wouldn't h ave them readily available but do we know if ICE actually asked for those or possible SSN & Driver's License to check in the eVerify database? I don't know but the latter is more reasonable.

On arresting the managers/owners, I actually agree that they should do that. They will get bailed out pretty quick but its the principle for sure.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The tech industry is filled with people from Asia on overstayed visas. Employers love it because they can get cheaper talent which hurts skilled workers in this country. Zero effort being made to stop it.

73-76% to 16% total unauthorized. Let's focus on where the majority of the problem is (and not just on the supply but also the demand)

Re: overstays, approx 700K out of 11M+. Approx 100K was from Canada (let's give them a break, we know most will go back), approx 130K from Mexico and south of the border, China+India was about 64K.

Analyzing the New Visa Overstay Report | Center for Immigration Studies

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

73-76% to 16%. Let's focus on where the majority of the problem is (and not just on the supply but also the demand)

The one's in the tech industry to more damage to Americans because they actually drive down prices of high paying jobs. These raids are taking jobs that Americans won't work.

[RainMaker]

Reminder that the first person Trump commuted the sentence of was a man who hired hundreds of illegal immigrants to work in his factory. He really cares about unauthorized workers.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The one's in the tech industry to more damage to Americans because they actually drive down prices of high paying jobs. These raids are taking jobs that Americans won't work.

If you are stating the ones in the tech industry is doing more damage as a whole, I would be interested in reading the research/analysis.

I have not been able to find metrics on how many unauthorized work in the tech industry (I did find a link that said 13% in management & professional but not explicitly tech) and also understand how they come to the cost/benefit analysis.

Absolutely agree these raids are on jobs that Americans won't work. Its either come up with holistic immigration reform that includes expanded guest worker program and/or increase pay which will be reflected on the consumer.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Reminder that the first person Trump commuted the sentence of was a man who hired hundreds of illegal immigrants to work in his factory. He really cares about unauthorized workers.

I think you have been hinting at "its all about racism" but I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly.

If you don't think its about unauthorized immigration, what do you think its about?

If you say racism plays a role, I'll give you that. If you say its primarily about racism and not unauthorized immigration, that's a pretty radical position IMO.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by stevew

If ICE is going to randomly raid people, at least they could go after Uber/Grubhub/Lyft/DoorDash drivers who don’t actually pay much/any tax. The farm workers contribute something.

Don't know about the others, but I have to believe Uber & Lyft have to report revenue paid to the drivers (e.g. 1099 as a independent contractor). So taxes will be paid somehow.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think you have been hinting at "its all about racism" but I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly.

If you don't think its about unauthorized immigration, what do you think its about?

If you say racism plays a role, I'll give you that. If you say its primarily about racism and not unauthorized immigration, that's a pretty radical position IMO.

The President who wanted to stop illegal immigration was literally hiring unauthorized workers at his properties. He commuted a sentence of a man who hired illegal immigrants. Why would someone who truly cares about this issue do that?

If you want to stop illegal immigration, perp walk 5-10 CEOs of companies that hire unauthorized workers and hit them with charges that can land them in prison for many years. I guarantee you'll see some asses pucker and changes made in terms of hiring around the country.

But it's not about stopping illegal immigration. The money in the party needs those workers. It's why when Florida Republicans tried to implement strict rules on hiring, a bunch of big donors finally spoke up and said "yeah we can't have that". This is about locking up some brown people for show to placate limp-dicked losers who get off on it.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Don't know about the others, but I have to believe Uber & Lyft have to report revenue paid to the drivers (e.g. 1099 as a independent contractor). So taxes will be paid somehow.

They can just write off all of it using a bit of fudgery and legit write offs.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If you are stating the ones in the tech industry is doing more damage as a whole, I would be interested in reading the research/analysis.

Companies hire people on H1-B visas because they are cheaper and can control them. When you're on one, you can't just leave for a better offer.

500 - Internal Server Error

The more you bring in, the less you have to pay domestic workers in the field.

hxxp://fortune.com/2017/02/15/h1-b-silicon-valley-wages/

I have not been able to find metrics on how many unauthorized work in the tech industry (I did find a link that said 13% in management & professional but not explicitly tech) and also understand how they come to the cost/benefit analysis.

It's because we don't know. We don't have good ways of tracking overstayed student, tourist, and work visas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/02/u...tay-visas.html

You'll see from that article that the last report we had showed 40% of people overstayed their work visas. Also this quote:

Some experts also note that a sizable number of those who overstayed their visas are highly skilled workers who come under the H-1B program or are foreign students.

This was something Trump spoke about fixing during the campaign (which I agreed with). But he did a 180 on it when the donors told him to bend over.

[GrantDawg]

If you don't believe we are through the looking glass, read this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/07/polit...ton/index.html


Trump and his people "defend" the Presidents from attacks that never happened. The level they can just make crap up is just unbelievable. Any proof that something did not happen is just "fake news."

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I agree that I would not be able to quickly produce a birth certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate when asked because they are at home or in a safe deposit box.

I do think its reasonable for them to ask for SSN & Drivers License which (I think) will allow them to check pretty quick if someone is able to work legally. From reading the various articles, do we know if ICE asked for proof of citizenship or proof that they could work legally?

So you are totally cool with violating someones civil liberties by demanding them to show ID for doing nothing wrong?

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think you have been hinting at "its all about racism" but I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly.

If you don't think its about unauthorized immigration, what do you think its about?

If you say racism plays a role, I'll give you that. If you say its primarily about racism and not unauthorized immigration, that's a pretty radical position IMO.

It is 100% about racism. I'm a 44 year old white guy who drives a BMW. For some reason I don't feel the need to carry around proof of citizenship. Wonder why that is?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

If you don't believe we are through the looking glass, read this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/07/polit...ton/index.html


Trump and his people "defend" the Presidents from attacks that never happened. The level they can just make crap up is just unbelievable. Any proof that something did not happen is just "fake news."

and FOX news will cleverly edit the soundbites to make it look as bad as they can, his disciples will eat it up, and the Tucker Carlsons of the world will go on telling them all how the Dems are dividing us by picking on poor Donald when we should all just be falling in line.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So you are totally cool with violating someones civil liberties by demanding them to show ID for doing nothing wrong?



It is 100% about racism. I'm a 44 year old white guy who drives a BMW. For some reason I don't feel the need to carry around proof of citizenship. Wonder why that is?

And I couldn't even prove citizenship right know because my naturalization papers were lost and I am waiting for copies, only because I also need to replace my ragged SSN card. Yet I have no worries about being questioned either......Oh yeah, middle aged and white.

[RainMaker]

Everyone here would have a fit if they were detained for a weekend until they could provide proper proof of citizenship.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is 100% about racism.

No no no...it's about stopping unauthorized workers. This is an issue Trump is passionate about.

Breaking --> For nearly two decades, Trump's businesses have relied on a roving crew of undocumented immigrant workers (nicknamed "Los Picapiedras") to do work on his properties.

A big @Fahrenthold & @partlowj exclusive https://t.co/ABbMgbAG5g

— Philip Rucker (@PhilipRucker) August 9, 2019

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Everyone here would have a fit if they were detained for a weekend until they could provide proper proof of citizenship.

Rightfully so

[RainMaker]

Worker threw exception | www.rawstory.com | Cloudflare

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So you are totally cool with violating someones civil liberties by demanding them to show ID for doing nothing wrong?
:
:
It is 100% about racism. I'm a 44 year old white guy who drives a BMW. For some reason I don't feel the need to carry around proof of citizenship. Wonder why that is?

Not a lawyer but my understanding is there was a warrant issued. So yeah, I'm okay for showing some sort of ID like a DL and my SSN. If they were asking for passport or naturalization papers on short notice, that's unreasonable.

Also, if there was no process to take care of children left without parents, that is pretty stupid and bad.

Definition of racism from ADL

What is Racism? | ADL

Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics. Racial separatism is the belief, most of the time based on racism, that different races should remain segregated and apart from one another.

Was the judge that issued the warrant racist - probably not, more likely acting on unauthorized immigration

Were the ICE men racist - probably not, more likely acting on unauthorized immigration

Are the policies/laws that the Judge & ICE acted on racist - easily believe some level of racism played a role for some Congressmen who created/evolved/participated in the laws we have now. Was it 100%, no

Is Trump racist - yeah, I can believe that. I don't think some of his comments taken in isolation falls under the definition of racism but taking into account his whole body of work recently, sure

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Everyone here would have a fit if they were detained for a weekend until they could provide proper proof of citizenship.

Too much on this board right now saying ICE asked the MS unauthorized for proof of citizenship?

There is nothing I've read that said show proof of citizenship (which is a pretty high bar and unreasonable on short notice). But I could be wrong.

Can you provide a link to this? Otherwise, let's call it fake news.

[PilotMan]

It literally took 5 minutes after the news on Epstein broke before someone in my feed called out the Clinton's, in complete seriousness.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Too much on this board right now saying ICE asked the MS unauthorized for proof of citizenship?

There is nothing I've read that said show proof of citizenship (which is a pretty high bar and unreasonable on short notice). But I could be wrong.

Can you provide a link to this? Otherwise, let's call it fake news.

How else would they determine who to arrest? Most IDs aren't proof of citizenship. What else could they have done other than ask and then demand proof?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Companies hire people on H1-B visas because they are cheaper and can control them. When you're on one, you can't just leave for a better offer.

500 - Internal Server Error

The more you bring in, the less you have to pay domestic workers in the field.

hxxp://fortune.com/2017/02/15/h1-b-silicon-valley-wages/

I came through the H1B process so fully understand. Lots of "fake" postings in Computer World (is that rag still around?).

I was questioning your point about "more damage done" by these tech workers vs rest of unauthorized and wanted to see how you came to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's because we don't know. We don't have good ways of tracking overstayed student, tourist, and work visas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/02/u...tay-visas.html

You'll see from that article that the last report we had showed 40% of people overstayed their work visas. Also this quote:

Yes, I don't know why we can't track everyone that comes in/out with the amount of technology we have now (probably because they are still using mainframes at INS).

Sure 40% overstayed their visas, but overstays are 16% of total unauthorized. And of the 16%, the largest group of overstays are Mexico & south of the border.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

How else would they determine who to arrest? Most IDs aren't proof of citizenship. What else could they have done other than ask and then demand proof?

I think DL and SSN is enough for E-Verify. Instead of asking for proof of citizenship, I would think they would ask for proof you are allowed to work in the US.

I have not read what the process was for the (1) initial pickup and (2) processing later. My point is no one here knows either (or please provide a link).

Its just as easy to believe ICE asked for DL and SSN vs "proof of citizenship" which implies passport or naturalization papers. On short notice, the former is pretty reasonable, the latter is not.