The Trump Presidency – 2016

[stevew]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It literally took 5 minutes after the news on Epstein broke before someone in my feed called out the Clinton's, in complete seriousness.

Arkancide...duh

[molson]

Just about every foreign country requires non-citizen to carry a passport or other documents (or copy) at all times. Many countries, including some European countries, require everyone to carry ID and to show it on request. Americans are more offended by this than people in other countries. Which is fine, we can have our own rules. But let's not pretend it's some crazy concept.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

Just about every foreign country requires non-citizen to carry a passport or other documents (or copy) at all times. Many countries, including some European countries, require everyone to carry ID and to show it on request. Americans are more offended by this than people in other countries. Which is fine, we can have our own rules. But let's not pretend it's some crazy concept.

My complaint is that we don't, and even now are only expecting some people to be able to produce documents on demand. Applying this to everyone has it's own problems, but at least then we wouldn't be making an initial judgement on skin color or spoken language.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think DL and SSN is enough for E-Verify. Instead of asking for proof of citizenship, I would think they would ask for proof you are allowed to work in the US.

I have not read what the process was for the (1) initial pickup and (2) processing later. My point is no one here knows either (or please provide a link).

Its just as easy to believe ICE asked for DL and SSN vs "proof of citizenship" which implies passport or naturalization papers. On short notice, the former is pretty reasonable, the latter is not.

dola

But we know that ICE has detained people with driver's licenses because that isn't enough to prove citizenship. It seems reasonable to assume they are following that same procedure here.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

But we know that ICE has detained people with driver's licenses because that isn't enough to prove citizenship. It seems reasonable to assume they are following that same procedure here.

I googled on "what documents does ICE ask for" and the like. I was not able to find anything. Vast majority was "know your rights", "what not to do".

[JPhillips]

The I-9 requirements give you a list of what documents prove identity and work authorization.

Certainly, my advice to individuals would be to carry enough of these to prove status, but the law doesn't require us to do so, and holding people indefinitely because they don't have those documents on hand is a real problem.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think DL and SSN is enough for E-Verify. Instead of asking for proof of citizenship, I would think they would ask for proof you are allowed to work in the US.

I have not read what the process was for the (1) initial pickup and (2) processing later. My point is no one here knows either (or please provide a link).

Its just as easy to believe ICE asked for DL and SSN vs "proof of citizenship" which implies passport or naturalization papers. On short notice, the former is pretty reasonable, the latter is not.

13 states offer DLs to illegal immigrants according to http://www.ncsl.org/research/immigra...mmigrants.aspx

So having a DL doesn't mean you're here legally.

[Edward64]

DL + SSN is enough to check E-Verify and validate you can work here legally.

True there may be forgeries but those 2 are typically enough.

[Lathum]

I’m vacationing on Nantucket. Mike Pence just drove by us. He is here for a fund raiser. Wish I had known. I would have made a sign and stood on the side of the road.

Vice president MIke Pence on Nantucket Saturday - News - The Inquirer and Mirror - Nantucket, MA

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I’m vacationing on Nantucket. Mike Pence just drove by us. He is here for a fund raiser. Wish I had known. I would have made a sign and stood on the side of the road.

Vice president MIke Pence on Nantucket Saturday - News - The Inquirer and Mirror - Nantucket, MA

Hah. What would the sign have said?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hah. What would the sign have said?

Probably “stop locking kids in cages”

[Thomkal]

Epstein commits suicide-he was on suicide watch since his earlier attempt, but apparently not when he actually succeded. Looks like he hung himself. What a coward. I fully expect conspiracy theories from the right and left in 3.2.1...


Jeffrey Epstein, accused sex trafficker, dies by suicide: Officials - ABC News

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Epstein commits suicide-he was on suicide watch since his earlier attempt, but apparently not when he actually succeded. Looks like he hung himself. What a coward. I fully expect conspiracy theories from the right and left in 3.2.1...


Jeffrey Epstein, accused sex trafficker, dies by suicide: Officials - ABC News

Yup, the tin foil hat crowd are saying the AJ Barr had him murdered so he couldn't rat out Trump.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Yup, the tin foil hat crowd are saying the AJ Barr had him murdered so he couldn't rat out Trump.

Or that Bill and Hillary somehow ordered it.

[NobodyHere]

I saw that one too

[NobodyHere]

There's also the theory that the suicide is a fake and Epstein is getting a face transplant right now.

[Thomkal]

My favorite is that Trump and the Clinton's arranged it together because they both had something to lose by Epstein talking.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Probably “stop locking kids in cages”

Good one.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

DL + SSN is enough to check E-Verify and validate you can work here legally.

True there may be forgeries but those 2 are typically enough.

Did this business use E-Verify? If they did, and the workers had documentation, why were they arrested? Did ICE have evidence of forgeries? If the workers didn't have documentation, why aren't the managers/owners going to jail for hiring without documentation?

[Edward64]

TBH, I can easily believe he had dirt on powerful people and can easily believe he got murdered.

With that said, wouldn't the jail cell/door/hallway be on 24x7 surveillance and therefore a murder could be easily disproved?

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Edward64

TBH, I can easily believe he had dirt on powerful people and can easily believe he got murdered.

With that said, wouldn't the jail cell/door/hallway be on 24x7 surveillance and therefore a murder could be easily disproved?

There have been some reports, not official I think, that the cameras weren't working at the time of death. Not sure what other surveilliance there would have been, especially if he was not on suicide watch then.

[JPhillips]

Universal Pictures has decided not to release The Hunt, after conservatives threw a fit over it. To me, it looked like a cartoonishly overwrought attack on effete, liberal elites, but what do I know?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Did this business use E-Verify? If they did, and the workers had documentation, why were they arrested? Did ICE have evidence of forgeries? If the workers didn't have documentation, why aren't the managers/owners going to jail for hiring without documentation?

Don't know; don't know; don't know; let me know if you find any articles that answers these questions.

None of the above seem to be contesting all/most of the 680 were unauthorized? So what did ICE do illegal or what is your beef with the raid?



Found something but not specific to the raid.

Your Rights in the Border Zone | American Civil Liberties Union

If an agent asks you for documents, what you need to provide differs depending on your immigration status.
:
U.S. citizens do not have to carry proof of citizenship on their person if they are in the United States.

The followup question is what if one says they are a citizen but ICE officer does not believe you. How are you supposed to prove it? Don't know.

However, I presume there weren't a lot of the 680 detained that said they were citizens so let's go to ...

If you have valid immigration documents and are over the age of 18, the law does require you to carry those documents on you.

To be absolutely fair, I didn't carry my docs with me before I became a green card holder (but did carry my green card all the time when I got it).

So base on SOP, I am guessing ICE did not ask the 680 for proof of citizenship but more like your immigration documents to show you are legal in the country.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

There have been some reports, not official I think, that the cameras weren't working at the time of death. Not sure what other surveilliance there would have been, especially if he was not on suicide watch then.

Okay then, I'm leaning toward a conspiracy/murder

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Don't know; don't know; don't know; let me know if you find any articles that answers these questions.

None of the above seem to be contesting all/most of the 680 were unauthorized? So what did ICE do illegal or what is your beef with the raid?



Found something but not specific to the raid.

Your Rights in the Border Zone | American Civil Liberties Union


The followup question is what if one says they are a citizen but ICE officer does not believe you. How are you supposed to prove it? Don't know.

However, I presume there weren't a lot of the 680 detained that said they were citizens so let's go to ...



To be absolutely fair, I didn't carry my docs with me before I became a green card holder (but did carry my green card all the time when I got it).

So base on SOP, I am guessing ICE did not ask the 680 for proof of citizenship but more like your immigration documents to show you are legal in the country.

That's an assumption that no one there is a citizen, which I doubt is true. That sort of assumption is my problem. How does ICE determine who is questioned and who is detained? It sure seems like the plan was to round up everyone that looked Hispanic and work out the details later.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay then, I'm leaning toward a conspiracy/murder

Where there is smoke there is fire. Clinton hung with this guy. I know a guy who is a big conspiracy guy and I think I have told stories about him here. But this guy believes there is a pedophile island off the coast of Cali where the rich and powerful fly for weekends. There are young boys and girls there. And he mentioned Clinton.

As for the cameras in jails, my FIL worked a as a prison guard and he would stand in front of the camera to block it when there was punishment to be done on a prisoner. So it isnt a coincident that the cameras were down during his death. Im not saying a guard did it or they let an outsider in, but dont think it isnt hard to get another inmate to do it. Especially when its a child predator.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think DL and SSN is enough for E-Verify. Instead of asking for proof of citizenship, I would think they would ask for proof you are allowed to work in the US.

All the people arrested allegedly passed E-Verify with the company. So I highly doubt they are using that.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

How does ICE determine who is questioned and who is detained? It sure seems like the plan was to round up everyone that looked Hispanic and work out the details later.

If the ACLU link is correct, then ICE just asks them if (1) they are US citizens and (2) if not, ask them for their immigration documents (which everyone over 18 are suppose to have on them).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All the people arrested allegedly passed E-Verify with the company. So I highly doubt they are using that.

Full story is not yet out and foxnews is not known for accuracy but this is what we have so far.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicken-p...=prn_newsstand

Almost all of the Mississippi chicken plants raided by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials on Wednesday were "willfully and unlawfully" employing people without proper work documentation authorizing them to hold jobs in the U.S., according to unsealed court documents.
:
:
An informant posing as a worker at the latter of two chicken processing plants, PH Food Inc. in Morton and A&B Inc. in Pelahatchie, told Homeland Security investigators that both are owned by a Chinese man from California, Huo You Liang, more commonly referred to as Victor by his employees in Mississippi. The informant contended that Victor, as well as managers at other plants, did not follow state regulations which require employers to utilize E-Verify, a federal electronic verification system, to validate the authenticity of work documents including identification, Social Security numbers and tax information.

"The payroll companies as well as PH Food Inc. and A&B Inc. do not verify the authenticity of their documents," the informant told investigators, according to court documents, allowing employees to use their real names supported by fake documents to get hired.

Another informant at PH Food said that the majority of the 240 employees at PH's plant as well as 80 employees at A&B's plant employed many Guatemalan immigrants lacking in proper work authorizations and documentation.

So if the argument is the Chinese guy (I thought it was Koch Industries) should be penalized also (don't know what the penalties are), I think all pro-immigration control, anti-unauthorized immigration folks on this board are all for it.

[RainMaker]

Of course they knew what they were doing. I'm just going by their official statement. No one is going to get arrested because those factories are owned by a big GOP donor.

E-Verify is not a national ID service. lungs has talked about it here a few times. It's not terribly accurate and can be easily abused. Decent amount of mistakes too.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Where there is smoke there is fire. Clinton hung with this guy.

His history with trump is far more than with the Clintons.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

His history with trump is far more than with the Clintons.

True and Im sure there is something there. But we were talking Clinton conspiracy theories.

[PilotMan]

Funny thing, is that the way that trump loves autocratic do it all dictators and gangster crime bosses, he's so much more likely to pull something like that off.

[Lathum]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...4&id=618581353

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

His history with trump is far more than with the Clintons.

Is that really an argument? It's like asking which serial killer had the higher body count.

[RainMaker]

He has been out of office for almost 20 years. At what point does he lose his magical powers to assassinate anyone he wants without the government finding out?

There's hundreds of people that probably wanted him dead. Far more powerful than Trump and Clinton. In fact, from what I've read, both Trump and Clinton kept their distance after awhile from the guy.

The most likely answer is a pedophile who realized he was spending the rest of his life in jail just decided to kill himself. Or a fellow prisoner decided he didn't like being near a chomo.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...4&id=618581353

There are real points to be had here, mixed in with a lot of unsubstantiated fluff that reads like a Fox Five talking point memo. Until there is hard proof of the other, it's mostly just wasted.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He has been out of office for almost 20 years. At what point does he lose his magical powers to assassinate anyone he wants without the government finding out?

At what point does Obama stop being a Kenyan Muslim?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If the ACLU link is correct, then ICE just asks them if (1) they are US citizens and (2) if not, ask them for their immigration documents (which everyone over 18 are suppose to have on them).

No. Everyone who is a legal non-citizen. Again, the assumption that they are all non-citizens comes from where?

[PilotMan]

And in less than a day, the executive dipshit retweets a Clintons tied to Epstein's death conspiracy theory.

https://wapo.st/2z2PMah

What a fucking tool.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Of course they knew what they were doing. I'm just going by their official statement. No one is going to get arrested because those factories are owned by a big GOP donor.

E-Verify is not a national ID service. lungs has talked about it here a few times. It's not terribly accurate and can be easily abused. Decent amount of mistakes too.

Correct. Companies can take fake identification and legally be in the clear. Just as long as they don't assist people in acquiring the fake docs. When I hired people from Mexico or Nicaragua, I'd simply tell them I need a social security card (a piece of cardboard, basically), and a Permanent Resident Card in order to be able to work. I would help them fill out the I-9, W-4 and state W-4, submit those to my accountant along with a copy of the ID cards. Good to go. ICE could've hauled my entire crew away and I'd just hand over the paperwork and throw my hands up claiming that they gave me all the proper paperwork. The only way employers can get in trouble is if they are under the table.

The Permanent Resident Card takes a little more effort to forge but it's big business and most metropolitan areas will have plenty of people that do it. My due diligence with those cards was looking at the back and seeing if there was a hologram of the person's portrait. It was always there.

E-verify is not mandated and is a shitty system anyway. The guy arrested for beating animals at the huge farm in Indiana was not eligible to work here yet passed the E-verify system. The reason it's not mandated is because it doesn't work.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

No. Everyone who is a legal non-citizen. Again, the assumption that they are all non-citizens comes from where?

I don't understand the "everyone who is a legal non-citizen" but to answer your question --

1) An Informant told authorities there were a bunch of unauthorized working in the MS plans (see foxnews link above)
2) ICE thought it was valid enough where they got a warrant. Don't know what the warrant said but probably something to the effect there are a bunch of unauthorized in these MS plants, go investigate/arrest/detain them
3) ICE went and asked the 680 for their "immigration documents"
4) The 680 were not able to produce them for one reason or another and so ICE arrested/detained them

I think you want me to say there is racism involved? If so, see my post #18416

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Of course they knew what they were doing. I'm just going by their official statement. No one is going to get arrested because those factories are owned by a big GOP donor.

E-Verify is not a national ID service. lungs has talked about it here a few times. It's not terribly accurate and can be easily abused. Decent amount of mistakes too.

Yeah, don't know if arrest is in the cards for the owners but I would think certainly fines. The punishment comparison between the 680 vs the owners do show the inequity of the situation. As part of any immigration reform, it needs to be addressed in the supply and demand side for sure.

In the context of MS raids, E-Verify is mandated in MS. Some articles I read put it at 50% area of effectiveness and the issue are:

1) Forgeries and managers/owners doing the wink-wink
2) Lack of some periodic audit by ICE/INS
3) Lack of political will to truly make it national and mandated everywhere

So sure, not perfect. Better than nothing. Needs improvement. I'm good with all of that.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't understand the "everyone who is a legal non-citizen" but to answer your question --

1) An Informant told authorities there were a bunch of unauthorized working in the MS plans (see foxnews link above)
2) ICE thought it was valid enough where they got a warrant. Don't know what the warrant said but probably something to the effect there are a bunch of unauthorized in these MS plants, go investigate/arrest/detain them
3) ICE went and asked the 680 for their "immigration documents"
4) The 680 were not able to produce them for one reason or another and so ICE arrested/detained them

I think you want me to say there is racism involved? If so, see my post #18416

It isn't illegal for citizens to not carry ID, the requirement is only for legal residents who are not citizens. So how did ICE determine these 680 people weren't citizens and needed to be detained?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It isn't illegal for citizens to not carry ID, the requirement is only for legal residents who are not citizens. So how did ICE determine these 680 people weren't citizens and needed to be detained?

If you mean "before the raid", they didn't. They just had a warrant saying there is likely a bunch of unauthorized, go investigate/arrest/detain.

If you mean "during the raid", I imagine the exchange went this way:

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: No
ICE: Show me your immigration papers
680: Don't have them on me
ICE: Stand in that line there

or

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: No
ICE: Show me your immigration papers
680: According to this website, I have the legal right to not say anything
ICE: Stand in that line there

or

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: No
ICE: Show me your immigration papers
680: Here you go
ICE: (Doesn't look fake) Okay, you are free to go

or

ICE: Are you a US citizen
680: Yes
ICE: (asks more probing questions, uses judgement or check some database)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Were the ICE men racist - probably not, more likely acting on unauthorized immigration

You said to look at this post for why it's not racist. ICE has a pretty big history of racism in this country.

Inside the Secret Border Patrol Facebook Group Where Agents Joke About Migrant Deaths and Post Sexist Memes — ProPublica

Under Trump, they hired an analyst from the Center for Immigration Studies. The former acting director hired many people from CIS and even spoke at their events.

They are also run by a white supremacist and rank and file heavily voted in favor of a white supremacist.

[RainMaker]

Tax cuts would pay for themselves.

The US budget deficit is up 27% and getting closer to $1 trillion https://t.co/6j5ZYiDqlB

— CNBC (@CNBC) August 12, 2019

[NobodyHere]

Yeah I wish there was at least one politician out there who actually cared about the deficit. Trump obviously doesn't and the Democratic candidates seem to be in a competition to come up with the biggest spending plan.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Yeah I wish there was at least one politician out there who actually cared about the deficit. Trump obviously doesn't and the Democratic candidates seem to be in a competition to come up with the biggest spending plan.

I wonder what it would take for this to become an "issue" at this point? If you split up the current political scene into quadrants, there's only one (R but out of power) who has a shot to give a F about deficit spending, and fiscal responsibility in general. The D side is basically a lost cause, and when the R has power he sees the benefits of spending so "deficits don't matter."

Oddly enough, Ross Perot was the only flicker of a hope in semi-modern politics we have had to give a shit about deficits and debt. It's fascinating that the year-to-year deficit actually disappeared during the dot com bubble (I'm not going to be stupid and claim that was because of who was in office at the time) but that might have been the moment to step in with something to keep the huge deficit spending cycle to return in the way that it clearly has since then.

[RainMaker]

Deficits shrink under Democratic Presidents.