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Old 02-15-2018, 04:50 PM   #301
ISiddiqui
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Originally Posted by tarcone View Post
True, but those countries were built on a system of keeping the people in their place. The rich owned all the land and had serfs run it.
The kigs appointed the lords.
And the peasants were at the will of those above them.

This country was built be people who ran away from those systems. We dont have that inherent built in "we are peasants, we have always been peasants" mentality.
Our country has been built on "work hard and you can be what you want to be"

It has only been recently that other countries have done this. Not the 250 years of our country.

I did not realize that the US sprung ex nihilio and didn't have a colonial history prior to the War for Independence. I mean, Hell, it wasn't until the mid-1850s when non land owning white men in every state could vote. I wonder where the notions of only land owning white men should decide things came from?
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:54 PM   #302
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Using feudal times as an excuse to not work to keep our kids safe at school is an incredibly weak argument.

The facts are kids are getting killed at schools and we're averaging a school shooting every 2.5 days so far this year. Thats not acceptable and it needs to change. Shuttng down all discussion and refusing to budge on the issue is why it's going to be much worse for the nra and gun nuts when change does eventually happen.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:55 PM   #303
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Preface: Please don't take this the wrong way as I'm not trying to attack you personally at all (conversations on an online forum quickly degenerate because tonality doesn't come across).

I go back to why can't America change as it has for other items you listed previously?

The argument is that the right to bear arms is a basic right. Ok. This is only true because the Constitution says so, correct? If it wasn't in the Constitution, would you feel the same way?

I think we all can agree that the Constitution can change via amendments so why not the 2nd?

I cant really answer. I dont own a gun, so maybe I wouldnt think anything about it.

But I live where I live. So it is important.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:58 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
I did not realize that the US sprung ex nihilio and didn't have a colonial history prior to the War for Independence. I mean, Hell, it wasn't until the mid-1850s when non land owning white men in every state could vote. I wonder where the notions of only land owning white men should decide things came from?

But they had an opportunity to break out and make their own way. You know "Go West, young man"?

People made their own ways. They were given the opportunity too.

Play your whoa is me card all night. And that is why some people are where they are. They want the government to live their lives for them.

But not everyone is built that way. Some people hike up their big boy pants and make something of themselves.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:59 PM   #305
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True, but those countries were built on a system of keeping the people in their place. The rich owned all the land and had serfs run it.
The kigs appointed the lords.
And the peasants were at the will of those above them.

This country was built be people who ran away from those systems. We dont have that inherent built in "we are peasants, we have always been peasants" mentality.
Our country has been built on "work hard and you can be what you want to be"

It has only been recently that other countries have done this. Not the 250 years of our country.

Only white, male landowners could vote. It was 6% of the population. Not much different from what you describe in the first paragraph.

This is beside the point. Most of those other countries had similar revolutions and fought for similar rights.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:00 PM   #306
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Using feudal times as an excuse to not work to keep our kids safe at school is an incredibly weak argument.

The facts are kids are getting killed at schools and we're averaging a school shooting every 2.5 days so far this year. Thats not acceptable and it needs to change. Shuttng down all discussion and refusing to budge on the issue is why it's going to be much worse for the nra and gun nuts when change does eventually happen.

How about we put unemployed veterans with guns in our schools? Arm them to protect our students. Takes care of 2 problems at once.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:00 PM   #307
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Can't remember a school shooter who was able to get away. Crazy to think he could have done much more damage.

Also this has to be the most American thing ever. Mass murder some kids and then head over to McDonalds.


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Old 02-15-2018, 05:01 PM   #308
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But they had an opportunity to break out and make their own way. You know "Go West, young man"?

People made their own ways. They were given the opportunity too.

Play your whoa is me card all night. And that is why some people are where they are. They want the government to live their lives for them.

But not everyone is built that way. Some people hike up their big boy pants and make something of themselves.

This is really mythologizing bullshit. Not to mention "Go West, young man" was first coined about 75 years after the country's founding.

The proof in the pudding is after 9/11 when people willingly gave up all sorts of freedoms, so to claim that fixing gun violence is too hard because the myth that the US was found on 'freedoms' is just complete nonsense.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:04 PM   #309
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This is really mythologizing bullshit. Not to mention "Go West, young man" was first coined about 75 years after the country's founding.

The proof in the pudding is after 9/11 when people willingly gave up all sorts of freedoms, so to claim that fixing gun violence is too hard because the myth that the US was found on 'freedoms' is just complete nonsense.

I never said it would be too hard. I said I believe in freedom,

Also, you mentioned the 1850s. And "Go West, young man" would have been coined in the 1850s, 75 years after the country was founded.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:05 PM   #310
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My frustration is you have a problem that is out of control yet despite looking at other countries that don't have the problem many won't take the cue. That pisses me off quite frankly. Brained washed by their own culture.

Nationalism is installed in us to try to control us in my opinion.

I think we may have different definitions of nationalism. To me, you are being nationalist.

You are promoting the culture of your country, which you had no input in creating, no impact on the laws and really, no choice in being raised there. Yet, you are speaking from a mighty high perch down on us, that “all” we need to do totally change our culture and be more like you. To me, that’s like saying, “It’s obvious if Africans stop having sex AIDS will go away”.

Sorry to be so harsh. Of course if things were better, things would be better. They are not, and unlike where you live, we have a traumatic epidemic on our hands that we all desperately want to stop.

To not be nationalist would for you to see this a humanity problem and not just an American one with an easy fix.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:10 PM   #311
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How about we put unemployed veterans with guns in our schools? Arm them to protect our students. Takes care of 2 problems at once.

There was an armed deputy on duty. Most schools have them these days.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:22 PM   #312
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Can't remember a school shooter who was able to get away. Crazy to think he could have done much more damage.

Also this has to be the most American thing ever. Mass murder some kids and then head over to McDonalds.



I'm more confused as to why he first stopped at Subway, and THEN went to McDonalds.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:27 PM   #313
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Do we outlaw violent video games? Those can be part of the problem.
Get rid of violent movies? Those,, also, are part of the problem.

The quote from miami_fan underscores the issue. People are desensitized to violence. And that is a United States thing. This country has always been violent. We treat violence like France treats sex.

Im not sure there is anything you can do. Unless you are able to entirely change the culture of this country.

Violent video games and movies exist in France... right?
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:30 PM   #314
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So ... uh... about school shootings. Are we stuck again? Just on to the next one?
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:38 PM   #315
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I'm more confused as to why he first stopped at Subway, and THEN went to McDonalds.

I'm wondering if he was trying to blend in. I had assumed they caught him around the campus but it's kind of crazy he was able to get around town. I wonder how they knew it was him.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:39 PM   #316
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I'd actually like to see some "take all the guns" legislation pass just to watch a bunch of "cold, dead hands" people I know have to put up or shut up. The cognitive dissonance with their "Blue Lives Matter" positions would just be icing on the cake.
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:42 PM   #317
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Violent video games and movies exist in France... right?

And Japan
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:45 PM   #318
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Don't dispute that. That is why my comments also included more gun controls, more checks, more education and training.

Will there still be mistakes, yes. Then let that person be judged and pay for the crime.

If only the person you kill would have had such type of justice...
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #319
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I wonder if this will be substantiated in any way or if this is ISIS claiming responsibility for Hurricanes killing Americans.

Seems like he might have been bullshitting. Although that seems like a bad way to have the feds tear apart your house and confiscate your computers.

Local law enforcement: No known ties between militia and school shooter
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:09 PM   #320
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Just to throw this out there:

Already 18 School Shootings In 2018? | The Daily Caller
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:10 PM   #321
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But they had an opportunity to break out and make their own way. You know "Go West, young man"?

People made their own ways. They were given the opportunity too.

Play your whoa is me card all night. And that is why some people are where they are. They want the government to live their lives for them.

But not everyone is built that way. Some people hike up their big boy pants and make something of themselves.

...'some people' were constitutionally prohibited from owning land or even residing within the state, by the local population, governance and legislation of those freedom loving Western states.

https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/exclusion_laws/
Chinese Exclusion Act - Wikipedia
Racial Restrictive Covenants
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:18 PM   #322
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Our country has been built on "work hard and you can be what you want to be"

It has only been recently that other countries have done this. Not the 250 years of our country.

For some. Not for Asians, or women, or American Indians...

So, for many it hasn't been 250 years of freedom.. Acknowledging that doesn't weaken our potential, but it does illuminate our past.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:28 PM   #323
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I'm wondering if he was trying to blend in. I had assumed they caught him around the campus but it's kind of crazy he was able to get around town. I wonder how they knew it was him.

How a police officer captured the Parkland shooting suspect on the street

Seems like a patrolling cop heard the shooter's description on the radio and randomly came across the shooter.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:40 PM   #324
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I'm not trying to be a dick, really I am not.
If I am coming off that way, please forgive me.

Why guns though? Why is that the tool you decide to attack.

Far, far more people die in car crashes, or from alcohol, or cigarettes every year then die from guns.

Where is the outrage over these things. Hell without cars people would walk more, be healthier, the air would be cleaner, there would be no dependence on foreign oil. Healthcare costs would plummet...no one NEEDS a car anymore than anyone NEEDS a gun. Just let the trained government officials have the only cars and they can transport us where they want us to go.

The government can haul our foods and goods. Hell we can convert all the now unnecessary gas stations to homeless shelters.


BTW I'm a car guy as well. I have 16 tagged and registered cars and 3 more projects. I dont condone banning them either...but Id sooner ban cars than guns.

How many more innocent kids have to die because their moms dont buckle them up. Just outlaw the damn cars already

Did you have to take class, learn to drive, and get a license to own the cars you have? Are you required to have insurance on the cars you own?
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:43 PM   #325
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Sounds like someone did and his FBI didn't take it seriously.

Parkland, Florida, school shooting: Nikolas Jacob Cruz's alleged YouTube comment, investigation today - CBS News
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:49 PM   #326
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Can't remember a school shooter who was able to get away. Crazy to think he could have done much more damage.

Also this has to be the most American thing ever. Mass murder some kids and then head over to McDonalds.



What an idiot, why would you buy a drink at Subway when McDonalds has $1 sodas...???
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:51 PM   #327
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How about we put unemployed veterans with guns in our schools? Arm them to protect our students. Takes care of 2 problems at once.

Besides there already being armed security, good luck paying for that. School districts are already broke. Not to mention, you'd need extensive screening for PTSD and other combat-related disorders before you could even hire them.

Not a solution when you really start looking at it.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:52 PM   #328
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I read somewhere where they said they couldn't find who posted the comments. Even though, you know, he used his real name as his username.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:55 PM   #329
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I read somewhere where they said they couldn't find who posted the comments. Even though, you know, he used his real name as his username.

It wouldn't require much to figure it out. Google turns over that kind of information to the authorities. Heck, if he had an Android phone they could pinpoint exactly where he was when the post took place. Google keeps insane amount of info on its users.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:03 PM   #330
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It wouldn't require much to figure it out. Google turns over that kind of information to the authorities. Heck, if he had an Android phone they could pinpoint exactly where he was when the post took place. Google keeps insane amount of info on its users.

Yep. Reminds me of the time I was with a group of people talking to someone who was ex-CIA. Someone mentioned the FBI. He snorted and said, "The FBI is a bunch of dumbasses who don't know shit and are lucky they don't trip over their own dicks."
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:09 PM   #331
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Sent $50 to Everytown today. Putting my money where my mouth is.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:14 PM   #332
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dola

An EWR pilot for my company lost his daughter in the shooting yesterday.

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Our beautiful daughter, Gina Rose, was taken from us during the tragedy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL on February 14, 2018. She was a smart, loving, caring, and strong girl who brightened any room she entered. She will be missed by our family for all eternity.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:18 PM   #333
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dola

An EWR pilot for my company lost his daughter in the shooting yesterday.

Heartbreaking.

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Old 02-15-2018, 07:20 PM   #334
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Yep. Reminds me of the time I was with a group of people talking to someone who was ex-CIA. Someone mentioned the FBI. He snorted and said, "The FBI is a bunch of dumbasses who don't know shit and are lucky they don't trip over their own dicks."

To be fair, moat Trogans think anyone with a UCLA degree is qualified to flip burgers and not much else, despite a better ranking. I'd take it with a grain of salt
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:26 PM   #335
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This one is really hitting me hard. Much harder than the KY shooting a little while ago. I'm angry, I holding my boys, who are in HS, longer than normal. I was talking with the Mrs this morning and I've always said that if I had to choose between the kids and my wife, I'd choose my wife, because she is my other half.

However, the strangest thoughts and feelings occurred to me today. I realized that if we were split apart and if something happened to one of us, leaving the other, we'd be completely crushed and heartbroken. I do feel like we'd be strong enough to move on and see life through though. On the other hand, if I lost one of my boys, in this way, I'm just not sure I'd be able to see another sunrise. It's a level of pain and anguish that I'm simply not prepared to deal with. The thought of it is like a knife in the heart. I just can't rectify this new change in how I feel. It really goes against my entire thought process thus far.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:48 PM   #336
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For some. Not for Asians, or women, or American Indians...

So, for many it hasn't been 250 years of freedom.. Acknowledging that doesn't weaken our potential, but it does illuminate our past.

Yeah, I agree it hasn't been for 250 years for many groups that are non-white and male. However, I think that argument starts to dry up starting in the 70's and really, for the most part, irrelevant in the 00's.

Is it perfect, no. But it is much better than before and a minority/lower class in US has a much better chance of doing well in the US vs their peers in other countries.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:50 PM   #337
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There was an armed deputy on duty. Most schools have them these days.

Yup, they have one in my wife's school.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:01 PM   #338
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It really depends how much the #### number of people getting shot every year bothers you.

I don't mean to come across as a know it all or anti U.S. You guys do a lot of things better than us and we can learn from you. But you are really struggling with this one as it is so ingrained in your culture.

You take the guns away from law abiding citizens. Damn right. You take away the hunting rifles. It won't cause anyone to starve to death.

To an American it might sound extreme. To me it is common sense and normal. Just the way it is. If there are no guns nobody gets shot.

Sure in a perfect utopian world. The reality is criminals will find a way to get weapons.

Let's say the US starts with getting rid of guns in the hands of criminals first. Then make sure mentally unstable folks don't have guns.

After 1 year of no murders by criminals or mentally unstable, then let's have the conversation about taking away weapons from law abiding citizens. Wouldn't this be a reasonable sequencing of events?

The problem is not primarily, mentally stable, law abiding citizens.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:04 PM   #339
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Yeah, I agree it hasn't been for 250 years for many groups that are non-white and male. However, I think that argument starts to dry up starting in the 70's and really, for the most part, irrelevant in the 00's.

Is it perfect, no. But it is much better than before and a minority/lower class in US has a much better chance of doing well in the US vs their peers in other countries.

Unfortunately, evidence points to the exact opposite:

U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility | Economic Policy Institute
“The State of Working America, 12th Edition” finds that policy-driven inequality has undercut low- and middle-income workers for past three decades | State of Working America

"Income and wage inequality have risen sharply over the last 30 years. Income inequality has grown sharply since 1979, a fact that is universally recognized by researchers. The trends that have driven this growing inequality in overall incomes are growing concentration of both capital income (the returns to financial assets) and labor income (wages and benefits), as well as a shift from labor income toward capital income."
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:08 PM   #340
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There are a lot of very safe planes, and a lot of very safe pilots, but that doesn't mean that more and more regulations, constant safety analysis, training and awareness of common mistakes aren't actively saving lives every single year.

So just because we are a country of primarily law abiding citizens, doesn't mean that working to eliminate errors, enhance awareness, and change the current culture can't make it safer.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:13 PM   #341
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This one is really hitting me hard. Much harder than the KY shooting a little while ago. I'm angry, I holding my boys, who are in HS, longer than normal. I was talking with the Mrs this morning and I've always said that if I had to choose between the kids and my wife, I'd choose my wife, because she is my other half.

However, the strangest thoughts and feelings occurred to me today. I realized that if we were split apart and if something happened to one of us, leaving the other, we'd be completely crushed and heartbroken. I do feel like we'd be strong enough to move on and see life through though. On the other hand, if I lost one of my boys, in this way, I'm just not sure I'd be able to see another sunrise. It's a level of pain and anguish that I'm simply not prepared to deal with. The thought of it is like a knife in the heart. I just can't rectify this new change in how I feel. It really goes against my entire thought process thus far.

I could have, hell I may have wrote this same post after Sandy Hook. I can remember being deployed and sobbing uncontrollably as I watch the news coverage on AFN. I think that may be why I have arrived at a point of trying to look at this without any emotion whatsoever. It is not something that I can ignore with a wife who's a teacher and a son going to the same school. The thought of receiving that phone call or those texts leave from my wife and/or son leave me in a very dark place.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:25 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by thesloppy View Post
Unfortunately, evidence points to the exact opposite:

As a fairly extensive international traveler for business and personal, and having immigrated from a developing country, my personal experience tells me otherwise.

I will do some additional research and see if I can come up with other studies to support my position.

Honest question to better understand your background and perspective - how much travelling have you done internationally and to non-European countries?

Last edited by Edward64 : 02-15-2018 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:28 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by PilotMan View Post
So just because we are a country of primarily law abiding citizens, doesn't mean that working to eliminate errors, enhance awareness, and change the current culture can't make it safer.

Assume this was in response to my comment above.

I actually agree. If you scan my previous posts, I am in full agreement for more gun control, training, education etc.

Just don't eliminate my ability to have weapons if I am law abiding.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:34 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Edward64 View Post
As a fairly extensive international traveler for business and personal, and having immigrated from a developing country, my personal experience tells me otherwise.

I will do some additional research and see if I can come up with other studies to support my position.

Honest question to better understand your background and perspective - how much travelling have you done internationally and to non-European countries?

Very, very little.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:34 PM   #345
Edward64
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Very, very little.

Fair enough.

Let me see what I can dig up.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:48 PM   #346
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The biggest problem for minorities is the decades of wealth confiscation that has left them far behind equivalent white families. That gap can't be overcome in a decade or two.
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Old 02-15-2018, 08:50 PM   #347
illinifan999
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Yep. Reminds me of the time I was with a group of people talking to someone who was ex-CIA. Someone mentioned the FBI. He snorted and said, "The FBI is a bunch of dumbasses who don't know shit and are lucky they don't trip over their own dicks."

Famous, But Incompetent.

Federal Bureau of Incompetence.

Anyone who thinks the FBI is the pinnacle of law enforcement is not in law enforcement.
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:47 PM   #348
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Former neighbor of suspected gunman Nikolas Cruz shares video believed to be shooter - Sun Sentinel
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Old 02-16-2018, 02:13 AM   #349
Hammer
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I guess the positives from this thread is that most of you guys have a pretty good grip of the situation. A few voices are holding you back and really complicating matters. Sadly I think there will be a lot more to come until these stubborn people are willing to admit drastic action needs to be taken. Just need to keep pointing overseas to similar western cultures where kids are not shooting each other. You can point to case studies overseas of disarming really curbing the problem quickly. Although I don't think it is a matter of educating the ignorant. These people just want to keep their guns. I think maybe some people are just so selfish that until one of their own is killed they will continue to think about themselves. Hopefully in time the majority can overcome the few.

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Old 02-16-2018, 03:24 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by illinifan999 and izulde View Post
re: FBI

A throwaway one-line anecdote and namecalling as proof of why we should distrust the work of 35,000 federal employees. Classy contributions to the dialogue.
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