The 2010 MLB Season Thread

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Cripes, Jose Guillen just hit another homer????? This guy is on a killer hot streak right now. Now has 5 homers in the past week after doing nothing in the first three games.

Thank God for the final year of a contract I suppose........

I was about to post something to the effect of - the Royals need to sell high on that bastard quickly.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Talking about "cheating," and no one has commented on my post a day or so ago about the 3B coach who went onto the field and pretended to be the runner at third, hoping to confuse the relay man on a play at the plate? That one seems far more egregious to me.

I brought it up in my post

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Travis

This wasn't gamesmanship, it was cheating

Not sure I agree with you on that one, as long as it's up to the umpires to make the call then how is this really any different than a catcher quickly moving his glove after receiving a pitch outside the strike zone in an effort to influence the call?

[Ksyrup]

It's no different than a receiver trapping a ball on the ground and continuing to run in an effort to convince the ref it was a catch based on his "natural reaction."

[Travis]

He knew he wasn't hit, he pretended to be hit, that's cheating.

Same goes for a trap ball catch. If the fielder knows he trapped it and tries to play it off as a catch, then yeah, cheating. There I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt more often than not because usually a trap catch is occurring during a dive/slide/other impact going on so it's harder to tell if you made a clean catch or not, so you show that you do indeed have possession, then finish the play off just in case (if there are runners still trying to advance, etc) and let the ump make the call.

AJ outright cheated and the umps missed it. Brutal on both sides if you ask me (I'm certainly not exonerating the umpires here especially given that they conferenced and he was still given first).

Watching the last few Jays games has been tough as there was that call and the game before there was a stolen base attempt where the batter came out of the batter's box (had one foot pretty much on home plate when the catcher tried to come through with the throw to second), interfered with the throw from the Jays catcher but interference wasn't called because the batter moved his foot back into the batter's box before the ump saw it.

Stuff like this is going to lead to a push to expand the usage of replay which is too bad because this is stuff the crew should be catching while it happens.

As far as comparing framing a pitch to pretending to be hit by a pitch, really? That's kind of grasping there I think. There the ump should be watching the pitch from start to end and the only time framing ever really comes into it is if the pitch was on that fine line of being a ball or a strike. Pretending to get hit by a pitch traveling 80+ mph that's down in the dirt (so harder for the home plate ump to see) resulting in getting a free pass to first, yeah, that's not only a bit more significant but is flat out cheating.

Sure the catcher hopes he's helping get his pitcher a strike, but that's stretching pretty far to compare it to a guy saying he was hit by a pitch when he wasn't.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Travis

He knew he wasn't hit, he pretended to be hit, that's cheating.

Okay...please point to the rule that expresses this.

Doctoring the ball is cheating. There's a rule that bans it.

HGH/steroids is now considered cheating. There are rules that ban it.

Pretending to get hit by a ball, trapping the ball as a fielder, a 1B pulling his foot off the base a split second early to deceive the ump, ducking to create a smaller strike zone, the god damn hidden ball trick...are all elements of gamesmanship, pure and simple, and it's taken place all throughout baseball history in a myriad of ways. You may not like some aspects of it, but to call it "cheating" is 100% wrong.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

There's no honor code in baseball. Players are always looking for an advantage. I really think that what AJ did here is on the lower end of even that scale, and its something that I've seen happen plenty of times before.

Would you want your players not taking the base, knowing that players on every other team WILL take the base?

[Logan]

By the way, the prudent measure of course would be for Romero to plunk AJ the next time he sees him, so a CHW pitcher could hit a Jay the next inning while Romero sat safely in the dugout.

I fucking hate AL pitchers/all relievers.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Logan

Okay...please point to the rule that expresses this.

Doctoring the ball is cheating. There's a rule that bans it.

HGH/steroids is now considered cheating. There are rules that ban it.

Pretending to get hit by a ball, trapping the ball as a fielder, a 1B pulling his foot off the base a split second early to deceive the ump, ducking to create a smaller strike zone, the god damn hidden ball trick...are all elements of gamesmanship, pure and simple, and it's taken place all throughout baseball history in a myriad of ways. You may not like some aspects of it, but to call it "cheating" is 100% wrong.

Whoa whoa whoa, rule against it? There's not because the rule is you get hit by the ball to get a free base.

He didn't get hit.

That's the rule against it.

Again, as I said, this is just as much on the umps for missing it, but AJ cheated.

The hidden ball trick has rules in place against doing certain actions while you're in possession of the ball so if you want to try and pull that off, you have to make sure you don't do certain activities before hoping the base runner comes off the base so you can apply the tag.

Don't even get me started on the strike zone as the actual rule is supposed to be called by the umpires taking into consideration the hitter's normal stance no matter how they then adjust themselves in the batter's box (and the fact that the top half of the zone is rarely caused as it is).

Call it gamesmanship, call it cheating, call it whatever you're comfortable with, AJ knew he didn't get hit and he acted as if he did. To me, that's cheating.

I'm also the guy who gets pissed that they don't call the entire strike zone and who wishes the umps would call runners safe at second if no physical contact is made with second base during a double play turn. That's why I'm also saying the umps need to clean up their act.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Travis

To me, that's cheating.

Right. To you. And that's fine. And I respect what you're saying in that you wish they would enforce all the rules, not call the neighborhood play, etc.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Travis

resulting in getting a free pass to first

Which is the same thing that happens when a catcher shifts or otherwise distracts an umpire from making the correct call on ball four.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Travis

He didn't get hit.

The umpire ruled that he did, therefore he did.

That's the rule, not whether a batter tries to convince the umpire of anything.

[Logan]

Travis, just as a pure hypothetical...is a pitcher "cheating" when he knows a pitch he threw was off the plate, but his catcher framed it well enough to get the umpire to call it a strike?

[Travis]

So you're saying that a catcher shifting his weight/hands/position is the same as a batter pretending to get hit by a ball?

Seriously?

I mean, I've played a lot of baseball in my life and even catcher at a decent level for quite a few years as well as umping 4-5 years, and I've yet to run across any catcher tricks that occur in the blink of an eye that it takes for a ball to pass the plate into the catcher's glove.

And let's get this straight here, yes, catcher's do try to influence the call by framing pitches, but the umpire (and yes, I'm assuming the one's at the MLB level have, you know, proven their worth and know what's going on which could be a dangerous assumption) should have their mind made up by the time the ball is in the catcher's glove.

So I think a lot of you are really giving the catcher too much credit on what he can pull off with body posture/glove position. Hell, if anything, he probably influences the ump more with between pitch/inning chatting than he does with those frame jobs.

The difference here is that you're getting AJ taking advantage of a blind spot to the home plate umpire (where AJ pretended to get hit would have been obscured by the catcher's body to the home plate ump) and likely should have been the corner ump's call when the ump's had their meeting.

Again, a tough call, but one that never would have come up had AJ not knowingly tried to exploit a situation where he gambled that the umps weren't able to see what happened.

But because of the glory of HD and technology, it's obvious to everyone at home what he did.

Moments like that will end up being the reason instant replay will get pushed through to be more inclusive of which plays can be reviewed.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The umpire ruled that he did, therefore he did.

Exactly. Making all this noise about "cheating" and crap just sounds like some serious sour grapes. Bad calls happen. They happen for your team and they happen against your team. They are part of the game.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Logan

Travis, just as a pure hypothetical...is a pitcher "cheating" when he knows a pitch he threw was off the plate, but his catcher framed it well enough to get the umpire to call it a strike?

These are some odd comparisons, really.

And this question is one reason it won't surprise me when they move to digital calls for balls and strikes (seems like the technology is getting close enough).

But comparing a ball/strike call that likely has very little, if anything to do with a catcher framing a pitch to AJ pretending to get plunked, yeah, it's just apples and oranges to me.

The pitcher makes his pitch, the catcher tries to keep the ball as close to the zone as possible. Given the time elapse between the two and the fact that both are just waiting to hear the call, well their influence is as minimal as you can get in that situation.

The closest I'd give you is when a pitcher starts walking off thinking he's got a strike out to end an inning or when a batter starts heading to first thinking they've got a walk, but even then, on either side, you're talking about a fraction of an inch, 4 different view points of a pitch (batter, catcher, ump, pitcher) and less than a second from delivery to catch.

Whole different set of circumstances than a guy pretending to get hit by a pitch.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Travis

So you're saying that a catcher shifting his weight/hands/position is the same as a batter pretending to get hit by a ball?

Seriously?

Of course not. I think they are different degrees of gamesmanship.

But you were the one who said:

He knew he wasn't hit, he pretended to be hit, that's cheating.

We can't substitute some words to read:

He knew it wasn't a strike, he pretended it was a strike, that's cheating.

? After all, why else would he be moving his glove into the strike zone if catching it where it lands would result in a strike and the correct call?

[Travis]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

Exactly. Making all this noise about "cheating" and crap just sounds like some serious sour grapes. Bad calls happen. They happen for your team and they happen against your team. They are part of the game.

No.

Not sour grapes, but yes, a bad call (as earlier, I'm not absolving the umps).

But this wasn't a call missed in the normal flow of the game. It was a player consciously making a decision to falsify the proceedings of what happened.

I don't see how calling that for what it is is being sour grapes.

He wasn't hit, acted like he did in a situation where he knew it would be hard for the umps to have seen what happened.

My biggest concern is that stuff like this does lead to expanded instant replay introduction that ends up slowing down the game and hurting it.

[Travis]

Ever caught a 90+ mph fastball that's moving and dipping? Good luck catching it and holding your glove exactly where you do so. Catcher's are trained to try and hold the ball where's it caught as close as they can. No ump is going to give credit to a catcher moving his glove in a drastic manner (more than an inch or so) anyway, so to imply that catcher's are influencing calls to this magnitude just aren't realistic.

I mean come on, are we actually comparing where a catcher holds his glove after catching a pitch to a guy pretending to get hit by a pitch?

I'm obviously in the minority here so that's cool. It's also obvious that neither side here is moving towards the middle, let alone the other side, so probably best to just leave it where it is and move on.

The difference between calling it cheating and gamesmanship, not really worth shredding apart such a minute detail.

[Logan]

First of all, I thought you were responding to me above...but either way I think my point still holds.

But...

But comparing a ball/strike call that likely has very little, if anything to do with a catcher framing a pitch

Excuse me? Are you really saying this isn't a big part of the game? More than a guy pretending to get hit by a pitch?

[Travis]

Depends on the ump. Having been on all 3 ends (pitching/catching/umping) into my twenties, rarely did it play that big of a factor.

Let me clarify that.

If an ump see's the catcher move his glove more than a twitch towards the strike zone, he's, if anything, going to err to a ball call.

So if your catcher moves his hand even 2+ inches in any direction, that's not helping you with the ump.

If you've got a catcher who is an excellent framer and is able to heel or toe catch the ball with his glove (with that end of his glove being in "ball" territory so that the majority [75%] of his glove is in strike territory) so that the ball rolls from the toe or heel into the heart of the glove which is in strike territory, then you'll get some influence, potentially to a strike call.

This of course only factors in on the umpire in question's strike zone and is all happening in under half a second. A majority of calls by an ump are made before the ball is in the catcher's glove (maybe not the verbal call, but the umpire's mind is made up).

As a pitcher/catcher, you tend to have an idea of where the umpire's zone is, but when a pitch is thrown, unless it is to the exact spot that a catcher's glove starts, the catcher is then left guessing how close to the zone the pitch now is (depending on where they set up and if the pitch is moving them up, down, in or away from the zone). So the catcher on every pitch is trying to keep it in control and present as calm a picture for the umpire to see as possible.

The umpire on the other hand, *shouldn't* care about the catcher at all. This isn't always the case, but a strong ump should be making his calls without seeing the catcher, the glove, etc. That said, the more an ump see's a catcher move, the worse it usually is for that call if it is close.

But in the end, it's up to the ump to say whether that pitch traveled through the strike zone. Nothing is impeding his view of it (unless he's positioned himself poorly) and it is his responsibility.

With AJ, as I said, he was banking on that ball in the dirt being obscured by the catcher so the home plate ump couldn't see it (and couldn't use the trajectory to determine if it had hit him). He was also banking on it being near impossible for the corner ump (I believe the 3rd base ump in this case) to be able to tell from his distance away.

Totally different story/circumstance/intent.

A big difference between trying to work an ump's strikezone (hence my above endorsement about moving to an electronic strikezone or whatever the tech will be) to the black/white nature of being hit by a pitch.

[k0ruptr]

the biggest thing about this, is if AJ was on your team for the past 5 years and did that, you wouldn't make a fuss about it. you would lol.

[johnnyshaka]

We all know douches who want to win at all costs and will stop at nothing to try and do so...AJ is obviously one of those characters. Right or wrong, they get away this crap every once in a while but you can bet that the next time the Sox run into that crew AJ might not get a call or two because karma's a bitch.

[MikeVic]

If I was a pitcher on the Jays, I'd make sure he knew the difference between faking a HBP and an actual HBP. Maybe twice to make sure.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

If I was a pitcher on the Jays, I'd make sure he knew the difference between faking a HBP and an actual HBP. Maybe twice to make sure.

Easy when you're protected by the DH.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Logan

Easy when you're protected by the DH.

True, but do you think most pitchers in the NL will plunk an opposing pitcher for plunking AJ for the crap he routinely pulls year to year?

Just to clarify, I don't have a horse in this race...could care less if the Jays had lost because of the play nor do I care either way if AJ ends up being a HoF catcher or doesn't play another game in the league.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Travis

Depends on the ump. Having been on all 3 ends (pitching/catching/umping) into my twenties, rarely did it play that big of a factor.

Let me clarify that.

If an ump see's the catcher move his glove more than a twitch towards the strike zone, he's, if anything, going to err to a ball call.

So if your catcher moves his hand even 2+ inches in any direction, that's not helping you with the ump.

If you've got a catcher who is an excellent framer and is able to heel or toe catch the ball with his glove (with that end of his glove being in "ball" territory so that the majority [75%] of his glove is in strike territory) so that the ball rolls from the toe or heel into the heart of the glove which is in strike territory, then you'll get some influence, potentially to a strike call.

This of course only factors in on the umpire in question's strike zone and is all happening in under half a second. A majority of calls by an ump are made before the ball is in the catcher's glove (maybe not the verbal call, but the umpire's mind is made up).

As a pitcher/catcher, you tend to have an idea of where the umpire's zone is, but when a pitch is thrown, unless it is to the exact spot that a catcher's glove starts, the catcher is then left guessing how close to the zone the pitch now is (depending on where they set up and if the pitch is moving them up, down, in or away from the zone). So the catcher on every pitch is trying to keep it in control and present as calm a picture for the umpire to see as possible.

The umpire on the other hand, *shouldn't* care about the catcher at all. This isn't always the case, but a strong ump should be making his calls without seeing the catcher, the glove, etc. That said, the more an ump see's a catcher move, the worse it usually is for that call if it is close.

But in the end, it's up to the ump to say whether that pitch traveled through the strike zone. Nothing is impeding his view of it (unless he's positioned himself poorly) and it is his responsibility.

With AJ, as I said, he was banking on that ball in the dirt being obscured by the catcher so the home plate ump couldn't see it (and couldn't use the trajectory to determine if it had hit him). He was also banking on it being near impossible for the corner ump (I believe the 3rd base ump in this case) to be able to tell from his distance away.

Totally different story/circumstance/intent.

A big difference between trying to work an ump's strikezone (hence my above endorsement about moving to an electronic strikezone or whatever the tech will be) to the black/white nature of being hit by a pitch.

But regardless of whether they manage to pull it off or not the catcher is intended to cheat. Of course we should also ostracize fielders who pretend to have scooped a ball that hit the turf and runners that are deliberately trying to take out fielders.

Cheating, no matter how small, can't be tolerated.

[k0ruptr]

Grand Slam Carlos Quentin. 7-0 chisox.

[Neuqua]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

the biggest thing about this, is if AJ was on your team for the past 5 years and did that, you wouldn't make a fuss about it. you would lol.

I'm a Cubs fan and detest AJ, but he does these sort of things all the time. He's just one of those guys who you love when he's on your team and hate when he's not.

If it makes you feel any better (and it does me), here you go:

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

I'm a Cubs fan and detest AJ, but he does these sort of things all the time. He's just one of those guys who you love when he's on your team and hate when he's not.

If it makes you feel any better (and it does me), here you go:

Is that Michael Barrett? If so, it's funny because he was essentially the NL version of AJ.

[DeToxRox]

So I have been watching some of this Wednesday Night Baseball game between the 7 PM playoff games and the Wings game, and I must say there is nothing worse then watching the Houston lineup try and hit.

Jesus.

[Crapshoot]

AJ is a giant fucking douche, and defending him on the grounds that you'd like him if he was on your team is ridiculous. He was possibly the most-hated Giants player when he was here that I can recall - utter and total dickhead.

[Big Fo]

Dang, Troy Glaus just did something good. That homer must have been at least 50 feet past the fence.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Logan

Easy when you're protected by the DH.

What does this have to do with anything? I'm just saying if I was a pitcher on the Jays, I'd hit AJ once, maybe twice, to make sure he knew how it felt next time. If the Jays were int he NL, I'd do the same thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Dang, Troy Glaus just did something good. That homer must have been at least 50 feet past the fence.

Yep. Ball go far.

[k0ruptr]

I was in no way defending him. just mentioning that, and i'm pretty sure what I said is true.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Meh. AJ will get a ball in the earhole sometime in the near future and then he can show us how he reacts when he actually IS hit by the ball. Until then, be upset at the umps, not AJ. They're the ones that bought it.

[lordscarlet]

What a disaster of a game in Philadelphia last night. The Phillies starter lasted 1.2 and the Nationals starter lasted 1.1

[Ksyrup]

The Stephen Drew Throw of Fail. lol

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looking forward to having some time to sit down and watch Grienke pitch tonight. Hopefully he puts that last start behind him.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The Stephen Drew Throw of Fail. lol

Beyond awesome.

[dacman]

Chuck Knoblauch is jealous.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Logan

By the way, the prudent measure of course would be for Romero to plunk AJ the next time he sees him, so a CHW pitcher could hit a Jay the next inning while Romero sat safely in the dugout.

I fucking hate AL pitchers/all relievers.

+1

SI

[sterlingice]

(Since I was just catching up)

On MLBN, one of the guys (Harold Reynolds, maybe) was talking about how AJ started shaking the wrong foot when faking that he got hit. He was shaking the back foot and hamming it up even tho the ball was only close to hitting the front foot.

Oh, and AJ is totally a douche but that's not exactly a news flash as I'm not the first and probably won't be the last in the thread to note that.

SI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

On MLBN, one of the guys (Harold Reynolds, maybe) was talking about how AJ started shaking the wrong foot when faking that he got hit. He was shaking the back foot and hamming it up even tho the ball was only close to hitting the front foot.

Did he learn that one from Cindy Brady?

[Bad-example]

First Giant-Dodger series of the season! Tonight's matchup features two 5th starters going head to head: RHP Vicente Padilla, 0-1, 11.42 vs. Todd Wellemeyer, 0-1, 5.68.

[Big Fo]

John Smoltz was a great pitcher but he's an awful comedian.

[Bad-example]

Pre-Bum Series Imagery - McCovey Chronicles

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Pre-Bum Series Imagery - McCovey Chronicles

Maybe you oughta save some of that wrath for Todd Wellemeyer. Just sayin'.

[Greyroofoo]

So mets and cards are scoreless in the 13th inning. Gotta suck to have a shutout through 9 innings and going home with a loss.