Jerry Sandusky thread

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd be more likely to believe a respected assistant / friend (I'm guessing) is occasionally swiping a pack of copy paper from the office than I am to believe that they've committed something this heinous. Absent any suspicions of your own, unless you're convinced that you're a horrible judge of human nature yourself (and can handle the self-indictment that brings) then I'm hard pressed to imagine an allegation less believable/credible without an extraordinary amount of evidence.

True, but my point is someone saying "I saw this guy having sex with a kid. With my eyes," is *an extraordinary amount of evidence*. I'm not sure I've ever even heard of a child abuse case like this where someone actually saw the sex occurring. There is literally not more evidence that you could have for a case of sex abuse, other than a photograph of the two having sex, which seems a rather implausible level of evidence to ask for.

If a person is unwilling to believe someone's claim of child abuse without seeing an actual photograph of it I would suggest that this person is mistaken on a very fundamental level.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

LOIC?

Lack of intestinal control. We're talking about JoePa.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think having a guy falsely accusing people of raping children in your locker room might be worth the trouble of firing.

At the risk of sidetracking the thread (because this is definitely a sidebar)

Did the GA run around campus saying it every five minutes to every person he saw? Or was it strictly the one visit to JoePa & that was the only reference to it? If the latter, then I'd definitely say the hassle of firing wouldn't be worth it in most cases. You just write it off to a bizarre conversation in a life that's probably filled with bizarre conversations & you hope that either the employee doesn't bring another unbelievable crazy story to you again or they move on quickly (as GA's tend to do) and aren't your problem any longer.

FTR: Above comments relate strictly to the questions about firing an employee & are fairly generic, not about the nature of the allegations the GA made.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

True, but my point is someone saying "I saw this guy having sex with a kid. With my eyes," is *an extraordinary amount of evidence*.

I disagree.

Based on the pretty simple premise that I know exponentially more outright liars or even blatantly batshit crazy people than I've run into child rapists best I can figure. (Even the highest estimates of child sexual abuse wouldn't push the number that high).

[Autumn]

“Despite a powerful eyewitness statement about the sexual assault of a child, this incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency, as required by Pennsylvania law,” Kelly said.

There’s no indication that anyone at school attempted to find the boy, or follow up with the witness, she said.

Curley denied that the assistant had reported anything of a sexual nature, calling it “merely `horsing around,”’ the 23-page grand jury report said. But he also testified that he barred Sandusky from bringing children onto campus and that he advised Penn State president Graham Spanier of the matter.

The jury said Curley was lying, Kelly said, adding that it also deemed portions of Schultz’s testimony not to be credible.

Schultz told the jurors he also knew of a 1998 investigation involving sexually inappropriate behavior by Sandusky with a boy in the showers the football team used.

But despite his job overseeing campus police, he never reported the 2002 allegations to any authorities, “never sought or received a police report on the 1998 incident and never attempted to learn the identity of the child in the shower in 2002,” the jurors wrote. “No one from the university did so.”

A lot of people dropped the ball here, including, it would see, the graduate assistant and Paterno.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I disagree.

Based on the pretty simple premise that I know exponentially more outright liars or even blatantly batshit crazy people than I've run into child rapists best I can figure. (Even the highest estimates of child sexual abuse wouldn't push the number that high).

Yes, and the crazy people tell lies. The child rapists rape children. Guess which one you should put an inordinate proportion of concern into?

[Autumn]

Let me just say that if Joe Paterno ever hears a rumor that someone is raping my kid in the shower, I'd like him to come tell me. Even if he's already told the athletic director.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

At the risk of sidetracking the thread (because this is definitely a sidebar)

Did the GA run around campus saying it every five minutes to every person he saw? Or was it strictly the one visit to JoePa & that was the only reference to it? If the latter, then I'd definitely say the hassle of firing wouldn't be worth it in most cases. You just write it off to a bizarre conversation in a life that's probably filled with bizarre conversations & you hope that either the employee doesn't bring another unbelievable crazy story to you again or they move on quickly (as GA's tend to do) and aren't your problem any longer.

FTR: Above comments relate strictly to the questions about firing an employee & are fairly generic, not about the nature of the allegations the GA made.

I think "I saw your old coach raping a child in our locker room" goes beyond a throwaway bizarre conversation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Guess which one you should put an inordinate proportion of concern into?

As unbelievable as the allegation seems, I'd honestly say neither. I doubt I'd have found the original allegation remotely credible &, frankly, even with everything I've read so far being painted in the worst light possible I still find it highly unlikely at best.

And I'll tell you that without the slightest hesitation and without the slight hint of anything resembling an apologetic tone.

[TwinCitiesFan]

Being a lifetime PSU fan this whole situation is really sad, I am all for being innocent until proven guilty but reading the many articles online...I would say Sandusky is toast...and a very sick individual.

As for Paterno he never witnessed any of the crimes alleged, when he was told of a 2002 incident he told the AD immediately...this is where it gets confusing because not all the information is known yet. You would think the AD at this point would report it to the police, but instead it sounds like he conducted some "in-house" investigation.

Who knows what the AD told Paterno, but if he told Paterno that the accusation was false and he handed it over to the police then Paterno would think it was being investigated. Since the AD is being charged then at some point Paterno will be on stand testifying what the AD told him...then things will get interesting.

Time will tell...

[Ksyrup]

This sounds exactly like a church situation. Will be interesting to see how far up the chain the cover-up goes.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As unbelievable as the allegation seems, I'd honestly say neither. I doubt I'd have found the original allegation remotely credible &, frankly, even with everything I've read so far being painted in the worst light possible I still find it highly unlikely at best.

And I'll tell you that without the slightest hesitation and without the slight hint of anything resembling an apologetic tone.

I gotta say, it kind of bugs me all the stuff you immediately whip out the shotgun and napalm for, but if someone tells you a kid's getting raped, you're not sure you'll pursue that.

You must hang out with some odd people, if you think someone coming to your house and inventing a story about a colleague of yours raping kids seems fairly plausible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

but if someone tells you a kid's getting raped, you're not sure you'll pursue that.

Simply goes to what I find believable (or in this thread where I'm often trying to project myself into Paterno's shoes, what he'd have found believable).

If you want something more "in my voice" to play around with, you could probably extrapolate what percentage of sexual abuse allegations I believe are truth versus fiction. Hint: it isn't an exceptionally high number.

[RomaGoth]

“Despite a powerful eyewitness statement about the sexual assault of a child, this incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency, as required by Pennsylvania law,” Kelly said.

There’s no indication that anyone at school attempted to find the boy, or follow up with the witness, she said.

This is the key phrase from that story. Clearly, Paterno and the AD knew what was going on. Also clearly, they decided to cover the shit up in order to avoid embarrassment and a tarnished reputation to Penn State University.

Sick fucks and they should all be castrated.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

This is the key phrase from that story. Clearly, Paterno and the AD knew what was going on. Also clearly, they decided to cover the shit up in order to avoid embarrassment and a tarnished reputation to Penn State University.

Sick fucks and they should all be castrated.

Agreed. But it probably wouldn't matter to JoePa, his stuff probably hasn't worked in forty years.

[King of New York]

NY Times story

According to this story, Sandusky met with the mother of one of the kids, with two detectives present, and confessed--how was he not arrested then and there? Were the "detectives" actually campus police?

I am also amazed that the College president has publicly defended two employees accused of perjury.

I get the feeling that this story is going to get much, much worse.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by King of New York

NY Times story

According to this story, Sandusky met with the mother of one of the kids, with two detectives present, and confessed--how was he not arrested then and there? Were the "detectives" actually campus police?

I am also amazed that the College president has publicly defended two employees accused of perjury.

I get the feeling that this story is going to get much, much worse.

Wow. This is going to make the Cam Newton/Ohio State/University of Miami scandals look like something from the Sunday comics.

[Matthean]

Jon's thinking is the kind of thinking that led PSU into this mess.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

(or in this thread where I'm often trying to project myself into Paterno's shoes, what he'd have found believable).

WTF? Jon is trying his hand at showing empathy? Did I miss an 'opposite day' notice or something?

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Were the "detectives" actually campus police?

I read it as campus police, who likely buried the info. Still, this is somebody who was raising flags in 1998 and still had kids around years after.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

WTF? Jon is trying his hand at showing empathy? Did I miss an 'opposite day' notice or something?

Relax, it's just a hypothetical exercise, useful for discussion purposes only.

[miked]

I'm late to the show. Is Jon saying it's perfectly ok to ignore allegations of sexual assault of young boys on your watch because sometimes people lie? Meanwhile, if a kid is suspected of shoplifting, he should get the chair. I'm so confused here...

[BishopMVP]

I don't agree with JiMGA's assertion that Paterno shouldn't have done anything, and I do think this cover-up will get worse as more stories come out, but I am curious what people wanted from Paterno. IF the GA came to him and he reported the allegation(s) to the AD, I'm not sure what else people wanted him to do. I can see saying he himself should have contacted the police as well, but beyond that clearly the guy isn't in a position to investigate this himself - and the evidence from the NYT article suggests that police were investigating at least one of these allegations and apparently not pursuing them.

[Ksyrup]

Well the anonymous GA is no longer. It's, uh, Mike McQueary. Wow. Just effin wow.

[RedKingGold]

Wow.

[RedKingGold]

The whole program is going down.

[Comey]

Sigh...unbelievable.

[DeToxRox]

Fixed so it's readable.

Penn State Head Coach Joe Paterno released a statement today regarding the child sex abuse charges filed against his former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky, saying "If this is true we were all fooled."

Perjury and failure to report charges were also filed against university Athletic Director Tim Curley and Vice President for business and finance, Gary Schultz, after prosecutors say they ignored a report in 2002 from then-graduate assistant Mike McQueary that McQueary had witnessed Sandusky performing a sex act with a boy in the Penn State football locker room.

Paterno, 84, told Curley about what McQueary witnessed, but said in his statement that he was never told the specifics of what McQueary saw.

This is the statement, in full:

"If true, the nature and amount of charges made are very shocking to me and all Penn Staters. While I did what I was supposed to with the one charge brought to my attention, like anyone else involved I can't help but be deeply saddened these matters are alleged to have occurred.

"Sue and I have devoted our lives to helping young people reach their potential. The fact that someone we thought we knew might have harmed young people to this extent is deeply troubling. If this is true we were all fooled, along with scores of professionals trained in such things, and we grieve for the victims and their families. They are in our prayers.

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the Grand Jury report. Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky. As Coach Sandusky was retired from our coaching staff at that time, I referred the matter to university administrators.

"I understand that people are upset and angry, but let's be fair and let the legal process unfold. In the meantime I would ask all Penn Staters to continue to trust in what that name represents, continue to pursue their lives every day with high ideals and not let these events shake their beliefs nor who they are."

[DeToxRox]

PSU is also covering the legal costs of Curley and Schultz. Seems incredible to me.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

PSU is also covering the legal costs of Curley and Schultz. Seems incredible to me.

They may be required to do that by employment contract...for ANYTHING (even if they were accused of murdering someone on the job).

Still incredible though.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by molson

They may be required to do that by employment contract...for ANYTHING (even if they were accused of murdering someone on the job).

Still incredible though.

Hope that is indeed the case then.

[RedKingGold]

I would bet that, for insurance purposes, they're pretty much forced too. I wouldn't read who's picking up legal costs as a basis of support.

[RedKingGold]

Molson beat me to it.

[RainMaker]

As Recently As 2009, Jerry Sandusky Was Running An Overnight Football Camp For Kids On Penn State Campuses

[Crapshoot]

AP reports Curley and Schultz are stepping down. Shocked this didn't happen earlier.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

AP reports Curley and Schultz are stepping down. Shocked this didn't happen earlier.

Probably just the beginning. Does Paterno last after this, or does he quietly retire after this season?

[thealmighty]

Obviously I don't know about the law in Penn., but here you are required, by law, to report anything that you hear of any possible abuse. You do not tell your supervisor, you are required to personally get in touch with CPS and file a report, whether you have proof or not.

I have had to report just on a student telling me they are hit by their parent. The truth of their statement is irrelevant- as an adult I must protect the child and let the "professionals" deal with truths, not some AD.

[molson]

Ha, so Sandusky actually wrote and published a book called, "Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story"....almost a cry for help.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Obviously I don't know about the law in Penn., but here you are required, by law, to report anything that you hear of any possible abuse. You do not tell your supervisor, you are required to personally get in touch with CPS and file a report, whether you have proof or not.

I have had to report just on a student telling me they are hit by their parent. The truth of their statement is irrelevant- as an adult I must protect the child and let the "professionals" deal with truths, not some AD.

This was the case with me when I was on YL Staff in Georgia. I haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been covered yet, but that's evidently not the case in Pennsylvania, at least not when you work for a University. This is straight from the Grand Jury Report:



It appears from this that legally, Paterno is completely in the clear. From reading the report and seeing Paterno's statement, it appears that at some point (whether before he told JoePa or after the fact) McQueary decided to shield Paterno a bit by only telling him that "something of a sexual nature" occurred (or agreeing to say that was all he told him.) The report (and Paterno's statement) indicates he told Paterno in vague terms, and he said "anal sex" to Schultz and Curley.

[corbes]

I was in PA when Sandusky retired back in 99 or whenever that was. It was generally viewed as very surprising that he retired then; he was still fairly young and was still viewed as the heir apparent at that time. I am wondering whether he was quietly ushered out then for these reasons--and if so, whether PSU officials knew more than they should have prior to the 2002 incident.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know how much you could shield Paterno from the details when you (a) are reporting something that happened between an adult and a 10 year old, alone, in the team shower, and (b) it's so important that your dad accompanies you to the meeting with Paterno. He may be legally in the clear, and it may be that they toned down the graphic description of it for him, but it was enough that Paterno reported it to his supervisor. So it really doesn't matter whether he knew it was anal sex, oral sex, fondling, etc., he knew it was serious enough to have to report and what the gist of it was.

With his early retirement and rumors of stuff going on before and after this, it's hard to believe Paterno wouldn't follow-up on his own with his superiors, or even quietly with police. Not to protect himself even, but as a concerned citizen. And if he had any say or approval in Sandusky continuing to use the PSU facilities, then he's just as culpable. There's no way the general public/media knows of possible instances of this going on, that Paterno didn't have even more of an awareness of this stuff over the past 15 years. I simply don't believe it. The senility defense is only going to take him so far.

I can understand, if this was an isolated incident, following it through and finding there wasn't enough evidence to go forward. But it didn't even get that far, and with other investigations going on and continuing to let the guy bring kids on campus... the entire athletic department and school administration should probably be wiped clean.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by molson

Ha, so Sandusky actually wrote and published a book called, "Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story"....almost a cry for help.

As if the title wasn't enough.

Report: Former coach Jerry Sandusky used charity to molest kids | PennLive.com

"We've continually tried to reach out to thousands of young people and tried to do more for them," he wrote. "As much as we can. To make it even better, the reaching out has always been a lot of fun. Especially at the summer camps, where I've enjoyed wrestling and swimming with the kids. I even had to have knee surgery in the summer of 1991 because of my fooling around."

"Once, Dottie said to me: 'Jer, you're probably the only one who really enjoys the things that you do.' That's probably true, but that's okay with me. I enjoy the life that I have had and I'll never regret being called a 'great' pretender."

[Matthean]

Paterno should have at least inquired enough about it and at least try enough to see to it that the situation wouldn't be happening again. To have the university know about a pedophile being on staff and yet have them still hanging out at PSU with kids is inexcusable.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

With his early retirement and rumors of stuff going on before and after this, it's hard to believe Paterno wouldn't follow-up on his own with his superiors, or even quietly with police. Not to protect himself even, but as a concerned citizen.

I don't find it hard to believe at all. My assumption in this sort of situation is that Paterno's priorities were along the lines of:

1. Protect Joe Paterno from legal culpability.





2. Protect Penn State's football program from a terrible public smear.




























3. Protect other kids from this monster.


Following up has the potential to put goal #1 and/or #2 in jeopardy. Meeting his legal obligation and then sticking his head in the sand works much better. *shurg*

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

And that's not necessarily intended as a slap at Paterno specifically. My guess is that the majority of major BCS type head coaches would do pretty much the same thing given the same laws. I suspect that it'd be even harder for a younger coach to "go outside the chain of command" and go straight to the authorities, for fear of it being difficult/impossible to get hired somewhere else.

[bronconick]

To be fair, the very people Paterno reported to are now the ones under indictment for perjury. It's completely in the realm of possibility that if/when Paterno followed up that they fed him a pack of lies and said it was taken care of/being investigated/found to be untrue/etc.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by bronconick

To be fair, the very people Paterno reported to are now the ones under indictment for perjury. It's completely in the realm of possibility that if/when Paterno followed up that they fed him a pack of lies and said it was taken care of/being investigated/found to be untrue/etc.

Heh. I was just about to post something somewhat along these lines, although less innocuous. I wonder if he followed up and was answered with an obvious lie that he decided to "believe" because it best served the top two goals I mentioned.

[Ksyrup]

I'm not so much focused on this specific incident as I am the next 10 years. Re Ben's point, he's already ensured himself of being legally in the clear by reporting this incident. Even if protecting his legacy and PSU football were his only other concern, wouldn't he have then quietly made sure that Sandusky was kept away from the school? You can privately/quietly sever ties without smoke.

Otherwise, for Paterno to either allow access or not speak up when others gave access to Sandusky to continue doing the things he was doing, doesn't seem to serve any of Paterno's goals. It just makes no sense at a minimum, and of course from a human perspective, it's unforgivable. I'd be interested to know who gave the guy clearance to be on campus these last 10 years.

[Logan]

The whole "he's been barred from campus" but now knowing he was conducting camps there up until 2009 is really fucking terrible.

[Ben E Lou]

Did I misread something? I thought he was only barred from bringing kids on campus.