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Old 06-19-2015, 07:51 AM   #101
NobodyHere
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Well Fox News is currently running this headline

Charleston church shooter's friends describe racist views as survivors recall playing dead | Fox News
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:53 AM   #102
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If Dude wanted to start a race war, he should've went into one of the gang neighborhoods and started shooting. Of course, he would've lasted less than fifteen seconds there.

Instead, he went into a place that welcomed him with open arms, with hospitality and started shooting.

What a pussy.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:05 AM   #103
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I guess someone said "ok, even we can't advance this narrative." But it sure looks like they were willing to give it a shot.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:50 AM   #104
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:56 AM   #105
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I haven't watched the clip but what does Jon want us to do?
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:10 AM   #106
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Dylann with two Ns and the middle name "Storm" both trip my racist detector. Has any story about his parents surfaced yet.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:13 AM   #107
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Dylann with two Ns and the middle name "Storm" both trip my racist detector. Has any story about his parents surfaced yet.
His uncle has denounced him very strongly, quoted in the LA Times as saying "I'd pull the switch myself, if they'd let me." My understanding is that his mother has refused comment/interviews.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:50 AM   #108
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I haven't watched the clip but what does Jon want us to do?
Jon knows we won't do shit, so it doesn't really matter. :\
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:03 AM   #109
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This was planned down to the date?

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Old 06-19-2015, 10:48 AM   #110
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Jon knows we won't do shit, so it doesn't really matter. :\

We, as in Americans, or we as in human beings? We see this shit all over the world.
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:36 AM   #111
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We, as in Americans, or we as in human beings? We see this shit all over the world.

He was focusing more on we "as in Americans."
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:00 PM   #112
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Are we better at this than other humans? Or is this about laws and rules that we should implement? Should we have a "War on Guns"? A "War on religion"? I'm with Jon...I dont have any answers for this sort of extreme violence. The "War against hate" and the "War against racism" are clearly failing, so maybe we need more rules...laws...more police...more profiling?

What is the solution?
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:04 PM   #113
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We can't eliminate evil from the world, and I think it would be some kind of creepy twilight-zone-esque scenario even if we could.

All we can do is let both good and bad events inspire us to be better people and to help others where we can. If you're a good person and you've positively influenced others - you've probably prevented a ton of harm that you're not even aware of.

Violence and murder suck but I'm glad we live in a world and society where we pretty much collectively oppose those things and want to make the world better. I don't take that for granted. I mean, we could be living in some Game of Thrones-world where murder and violence is a totally acceptable way to solve problems.

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Old 06-19-2015, 12:13 PM   #114
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"Jail officials said Friday morning that Roof is being kept in a maximum security solitary confinement cell directly beside Michael Slager, the former North Charleston police officer accused of murdering Walter Scott."
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:40 PM   #115
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Are we better at this than other humans? Or is this about laws and rules that we should implement? Should we have a "War on Guns"? A "War on religion"? I'm with Jon...I dont have any answers for this sort of extreme violence. The "War against hate" and the "War against racism" are clearly failing, so maybe we need more rules...laws...more police...more profiling?

What is the solution?

I don't agree with the bolded statement.

I think our society is much more open and accepting of those different than they are now then they have ever been in the past, especially in richer nations where mass communication and ease of travel is more prevalent and brings into more direct contact with different people.

It's a mistake, IMO, to take incidents like these and extrapolate from that that the war against racism or hate is failing. These are individual incidents, for the most part, and do not reflect the general feelings of society. Much as Islamic terrorism doesn't reflect the actual feelings of most Muslims.

Humans naturally fear those who are different than they are (it's basically evolutionary, back to the caveman days when it was actually a matter of survival that those unlike you were probably going to try to kill you), and hate often comes hand in hand with fear. One of the best ways to conquer fear is immersion in the source of that fear. The more we communicate, the more we understand and the less we fear those who are different than us. That is happening, thanks to the Internet, among other things.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:56 PM   #116
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Dylann with two Ns and the middle name "Storm" both trip my racist detector. Has any story about his parents surfaced yet.

Nothing other than they got him a gun a couple months ago for his birthday (after he was arrested for drug possession and then trespassing). Somehow the "This kid's parents should have beaten his ass up and set him straight!" kind of sentiment has not been quite as pronounced as it is whenever people see looting in the wake of protests.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:58 PM   #117
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Nothing other than they got him a gun a couple months ago for his birthday (after he was arrested for drug possession and then trespassing). Somehow the "This kid's parents should have beaten his ass up and set him straight!" kind of sentiment has not been quite as pronounced as it is whenever people see looting in the wake of protests.

Meh, give it time. I'm pretty sure the parents' "day" is coming.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:14 PM   #118
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@ChiefRum - I would like to think they are not failing either. I mean, we are clearly in a better place on hate than we were in the 1940's and in a better place with race than in the 1960's...but I could list about every single demographic known to us (White, black, Liberal, Conservative, Rich, Poor, Male, Female, Irresponsible Parents, No parents, Too much Government, Too little Government, Corporations, Labor Unions, Cops, Criminals, Religious, Atheists, Southerners, Northerners, etc.) and find a significant portion of the population believe (pick your demographic) is the problem. Basically, I see a whole lot of finger-pointing that suggests these things are failing. And in the absence of a drumbeat of the reality (be it progression or regression), the drumbeat of perception becomes the reality. At least in the minds of the extreme. Pretty hard to win that battle against extremism when we keep pounding the population with a near frenzy of (social) media finger-pointing about who's good and who's evil, especially when 99% of the people we blame haven't done a damned thing to receive discredit for that blame.

Anyway, mostly just venting...I wish there was an easy button.

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Old 06-19-2015, 05:00 PM   #119
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Meh, give it time. I'm pretty sure the parents' "day" is coming.

I have a feeling they are going to be pieces of work.

It's also cowardly for the parents to not come out and say something. That's the kid you raised and put out into the world. Show some fucking honor and speak up about it.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:01 PM   #120
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Also if the reports of them buying him a gun when he was up for a felony are true, they could be looking at jail time too.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:08 PM   #121
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I haven't watched the clip but what does Jon want us to do?

Well he doesn't have any actual ideas he just things getting teary eyed and acting above everyone is how you solve complex problems before heading back to your mansion as far away from those problems as a human being can get.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:14 PM   #122
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Also if the reports of them buying him a gun when he was up for a felony are true, they could be looking at jail time too.

Might be why they are keeping silent.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:15 PM   #123
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Well he doesn't have any actual ideas he just things getting teary eyed and acting above everyone is how you solve complex problems before heading back to your mansion as far away from those problems as a human being can get.

Mostly that, but I also think he wants us to treat American racism the same way we treat the war on terror (however that would work). Also, he seems to think that if South Carolina changed the names of some highways and took down their confederate flag, shit like this would never happen.

Primarily though, I think he wants his video to be widely shared so he can bask in the adulation. I'm seeing a lot of that on facebook this week. I'm sure a lot of them mean well, and I'm sure I've become way too cynical, but it gets a little cringe-worthy. Whatever "change" is, whatever the "solution" is, I'm sure it's something more than dramatic facebook posts about this is all the fault of people in society who they didn't like anyway, including police officers and conservatives. It's very important for some of these people to let us all know how enlightened they are.

Edit: One thing that seems to be relatively lacking in the rhetoric this time around is the gun control rants. I think that goes towards this battle over how we're going to characterize this. The gun control rantings generally are about keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, and here, there is a huge effort to disclaim the possibility of mental illness. I think just because the victims were targeted we want to assign as much meaning to the actions as possible.

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Old 06-19-2015, 05:38 PM   #124
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I just don't get how Jon Stewart of all people became the guy lecturing the world on race relations. A guy who grew up in an almost all-white neighborhood, who went to an almost all-white high school, and then a college that didn't even allow black students until the 70's. Of course he joined the all-white fraternity in college.

He now lives in a bunch of homes that are conveniently sheltered from certain taxes that he wants everyone else to pay for and also conveniently located in parts of the country where no minorities live.

He's a funny guy and I agree with some of his political views but his lectures on racial harmony are eye-rolling when he's spent most of his life avoiding having to live by any minority.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:42 PM   #125
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Edit: One thing that seems to be relatively lacking in the rhetoric this time around is the gun control rants. I think that goes towards this battle over how we're going to characterize this. The gun control rantings generally are about keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, and here, there is a huge effort to disclaim the possibility of mental illness. I think just because the victims were targeted we want to assign as much meaning to the actions as possible.

I don't understand the gun control rants on this one. The guy illegally obtained and carried a firearm. The laws obviously meant shit to him. Do people really think making tougher laws would have had him think twice about doing this?

Does anyone have a realistic solution on gun control? Because the people looking to commit murders probably don't care about whether their firearm is registered with the proper authorities.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:48 PM   #126
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Edit: One thing that seems to be relatively lacking in the rhetoric this time around is the gun control rants. I think that goes towards this battle over how we're going to characterize this. The gun control rantings generally are about keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, and here, there is a huge effort to disclaim the possibility of mental illness. I think just because the victims were targeted we want to assign as much meaning to the actions as possible.

That's because it's completely unambiguous. He was a felon that used a loophole to get his gun without a background check (closing this loophole polls at 90+ percent), and a Christian church is literally the one place where even the truest of true "patriots" could not argue that there needed to be some armed good guy there who could have prevented it.

And if you want to go down the "well criminals will always find a way to illegally obtain guns" path, keep in mind that you're talking about a person who had planned for months to gun down defenseless people at a shopping mall before deciding that a church would be the safer way to go about things. I'd take my chances with letting someone like that try to navigate the criminal underworld.

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Old 06-19-2015, 06:14 PM   #127
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I'm all for closing that loophole but I don't really think it'll change much.

Chicago banned handguns for decades. Like it was completely illegal to possess a handgun within the city limits. You can take a look at our murder numbers and determine what criminals thought about that law or how hard it was to get around.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:23 PM   #128
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a Christian church is literally the one place where even the truest of true "patriots" could not argue that there needed to be some armed good guy there who could have prevented it.

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Originally Posted by NRA Board Member Charles Cotton
"And he voted against concealed-carry. Eight of his church members who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church are dead. Innocent people died because of his position on a political issue."

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Originally Posted by GOP Candidate for Virginia Lt Govenor E.W. Jackson, Sr (won primary, lost in general election)
"And I would mention one other thing, and that is, I would urge pastors and men in these churches to prepare to defend themselves. It's sad, but I think that we've got to arm ourselves."

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Old 06-19-2015, 06:25 PM   #129
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I don't believe he was a felon yet. He had been charge with a felony, but that case was pending.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:29 PM   #130
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I don't believe he was a felon yet. He had been charge with a felony, but that case was pending.

If he was charged with a felony prior to the ownership of the gun, the ownership is illegal, while the charge is active, you cannot acquire new firearms
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:10 PM   #131
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I just don't get how Jon Stewart of all people became the guy lecturing the world on race relations.

The easy answer to that is that he is a legit media genius.

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Old 06-19-2015, 07:26 PM   #132
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could not argue that there needed to be some armed good guy there who could have prevented it.

Umm, you ARE kidding ... right?

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Old 06-19-2015, 07:37 PM   #133
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A horrible story, and makes me more glad that it's 99.9999% more difficult for the loonies and psychos to get their hands on firearms in Australia.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:14 PM   #134
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Re Jon Stewart

I'm just going to leave this here and tip toe out

http://youtu.be/6zPtpRrpU-g
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:16 PM   #135
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Here's a free idea: start a church for the worship of guns and invite everyone as paranoid as you are. Everybody will be very safe and protected.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:54 PM   #136
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A horrible story, and makes me more glad that it's 99.9999% more difficult for the loonies and psychos to get their hands on firearms in Australia.

But what about FREEDOM?!?

No one can be truly free without a gun!
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:08 PM   #137
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What's your solution for getting rid of guns in this country that borders a 3rd world country more than willing to transport them in illegally?
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:13 PM   #138
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But what about FREEDOM?!?

No one can be truly free without a gun!

Also we are totally screwed if we ever need to take arms against our government, or the British decide to invade.

Alas, the price we pay for significantly decreasing the risk of dying by gunshot wound.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:17 PM   #139
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What's your solution for getting rid of guns in this country that borders a 3rd world country more than willing to transport them in illegally?

Make it illegal to own them, and offer a cash buy-back program to get the ones out there. There will always be guns out there - and making it illegal would boost the amount of illegal guns coming over the border - but it would significantly cut down on gun-related deaths in the long run.

Unrealistic though, I know. I actually think trying to do this would for many trigger that whole armed resistance against the government that a lot of pro-guns folks consider the key reason for needing their weapons in the first place.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:19 PM   #140
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Also we are totally screwed if we ever need to take arms against our government, or the British decide to invade.


It wouldn't matter. The next time the King of England comes 'round it won't be Red Coats marching in rows with single shot muskets.

There seems to be a Red Dawn-esque mind set among Americans that if the government decides to go "bad", that they will somehow be able to unite and fight off the new tyranny. Never mind that fear of walking down the street or sending your kids to school is its own kind of tyranny.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:19 PM   #141
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What's your solution for getting rid of guns in this country that borders a 3rd world country more than willing to transport them in illegally?

$5000 bullets, duh.
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:24 PM   #142
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There seems to be a Red Dawn-esque mind set among Americans that if the government decides to go "bad", that they will somehow be able to unite and fight off the new tyranny. Never mind that fear of walking down the street or sending your kids to school is its own kind of tyranny.

Yeah, this is the line of thinking that makes most folks outside of the US back out of the conversation with an "ooooo-k there.....".
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:00 PM   #143
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Make it illegal to own them, and offer a cash buy-back program to get the ones out there. There will always be guns out there - and making it illegal would boost the amount of illegal guns coming over the border - but it would significantly cut down on gun-related deaths in the long run.

Would it? As I mentioned before, handguns were illegal in Chicago. When they were banned, murders actually went up (now I don't think this law was the cause, just saying it didn't significantly reduce murders).

A large chunk of gun crime in this country is done by people who are illegally carrying a firearm. The law obviously means nothing to them. And acquiring an illegal firearm is easy.

As long as there is a lawless 3rd world country bordering us it's going to be tough. Just ask all the people trying to eliminate narcotics. And remember that the people who want to eliminate these guns are the same people who don't want to tighten up that border.

I'm all for figuring out solutions to lowering gun crime but the people most passionate about it don't have answers, just smug remarks. It's the equivalent of holding up a peace sign as your answer to stopping world conflicts.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:04 PM   #144
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I don't think eliminating guns is a solution. It's not realistic in our United States and our culture won't allow it (we are just not like other countries). To continue to say eliminate guns is a waste of time.

With that said, increasing gun control is something I can support. I don't really know what or how to find the balance but its logical to me that less guns in the hands of bad/sick people will mean less "mass killings".

I remember when a background check or a waiting period was a rallying cry against gun control and I did not have a problem with either back then, it was reasonable to me.

However, gun control is only one part of the equation. Its an enabler but not the root cause.

If someone had so much hatred to kill 9 innocent people after praying with them, that person would find another way of doing damage. Bad people will find a way to get guns or find an alternative.

We need to understand the root cause of these mass killing and address it. I'm beginning to think its flouride in the water causing mental illness.

Oh, full transparency, I own multiple weapons and enjoy shooting them.

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Old 06-19-2015, 10:27 PM   #145
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As long as there is a lawless 3rd world country bordering us it's going to be tough. Just ask all the people trying to eliminate narcotics. And remember that the people who want to eliminate these guns are the same people who don't want to tighten up that border.

I'm all for figuring out solutions to lowering gun crime but the people most passionate about it don't have answers, just smug remarks. It's the equivalent of holding up a peace sign as your answer to stopping world conflicts.

I just spent a week in that lawless, 3rd world country. It's not so bad, honest.

The non-smug answer would be that if you want to lower gun crime (and crime in general), education and poverty are the areas that need addressing.

If you want to lower the incidents of mass shootings by crazy people, don't make it so easy for them to get their hands on weapons - most of the weapons used in these type of attacks ARE legit, and not smuggled over the border. Most of the people that end up committing these attacks are not the type of people who would probably have any idea where to buy illegal guns, and, in any, case don't need to.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:31 PM   #146
Groundhog
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We need to understand the root cause of these mass killing and address it.

The root causes are pretty simple to understand - hatred/insanity/terror/etc. They aren't unique to the US. What is unique is the ability for some of these people to carry out the attacks with military-grade weapons. We had a kid bring a crossbow to a school a year or two ago and attack a few students. Some injuries, but no deaths. If their parents had had access to a rifle or worse instead of a crossbow however...

The fact that other crazies have blazed a trail for these folks to follow doesn't help either, to be fair.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:56 PM   #147
JonInMiddleGA
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I actually think trying to do this would for many trigger that whole armed resistance against the government that a lot of pro-guns folks consider the key reason for needing their weapons in the first place.

I would pretty much guaranfuckingtee that to be the case.

And then it'd get really interesting to see how long it took before it was military unit vs military unit, I think you'd have a really tough time not having it break down like that.
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:01 PM   #148
RainMaker
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I just spent a week in that lawless, 3rd world country. It's not so bad, honest.

Drive an hour in any direction outside the tourist parts and let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
If you want to lower the incidents of mass shootings by crazy people, don't make it so easy for them to get their hands on weapons - most of the weapons used in these type of attacks ARE legit, and not smuggled over the border. Most of the people that end up committing these attacks are not the type of people who would probably have any idea where to buy illegal guns, and, in any, case don't need to.

That's just not true. 90% of murders in this country are committed by felons. 8% are committed by juveniles. Neither of these groups are allowed to legally own or possess guns.

I know the media makes it seem like innocent people are being mowed down in the street on a regular basis. But it's really not like that. For instance in my city Chicago, the city that the national media plasters all over the news for it's murder rate. Well 80% of those murders are gang-related. It's bad guys shooting and killing bad guys. Now I'm not saying that's a good thing because innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Just that incidences like this are rare.

Agree on education and poverty to an extent. I'd throw parenting in as well. Those are realistic ways to reduce homicides in this country.
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:03 PM   #149
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There seems to be a Red Dawn-esque mind set among Americans that if the government decides to go "bad", that they will somehow be able to unite and fight off the new tyranny.

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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Yeah, this is the line of thinking that makes most folks outside of the US back out of the conversation with an "ooooo-k there.....".

I live in one of the more gun-happy states in the U.S. (55% of people own at least one gun) - those people do not own guns for the purpose of taking down the government, aside from the odd weirdo. People own guns for hunting, home protection, target shooting, to protect their pets and horses and livestock from wolves and coyotes and mountain lions, etc, and some people just kind of acquired them from their parents or other family members and don't want to get rid of them.

I think some people do kind of have in their mind that their weapons are a hedge against potential economic depression and a more violent society in the future, but even that isn't a real reason for day-to-day ownership. I think people in some other countries (aside from Northern European countries) and more urban American areas would be surprised about attitudes towards gun ownership in more rural America. Hunting is a big deal, but most people don't worship at the alter of the gun and plan for the fall of the government. Guns are just around, and most people happen to own at least one.
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:16 PM   #150
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home protection

i.e. "we're scared the blacks or Mexicans are going to come for our stuff."
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