The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There are things about every one of us that are emphatically not ok. Associating with people is not passive acceptance of their beliefs, and it doesn't give their beliefs 'social credit' or any other such thing. It acknowledges them as flawed human beings, which we all are, and does not endorse any of those particular flaws but rather their basic dignity and humanity. That's it, and that's all.

I understand the perspective that we need to shut all this stuff down, but that simply weakens society. A strong society isn't one that blocks out perspectives it finds too repugnant. It is one that exposes itself to all perspectives and withstands the ones that are harmful, very similar to how you have to subject metal to a certain amount of intense heat to weed out the impurities and make it strong. Without that treatment, it remains brittle. If we are at the point where we don't believe we are capable of doing that, than the point is made; it's time to move to a different form of society because we aren't capable of being a functioning democracy.

That's literally never been true in any democracy on Earth. It seems like you're arguing for a values/morals neutral society, which may be theoretically possible but hasn't ever happened.

[ISiddiqui]

Right. Sounds like some Rawlsian or other philosophical worldview where spirited debate sways people with hateful views to realize how wrong they are. That isn't real life aside from a few outliers here and there. There is a reason we had to fight a war against the Nazis as opposed to logic-ing them out of their beliefs.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There are things about every one of us that are emphatically not ok. Associating with people is not passive acceptance of their beliefs, and it doesn't give their beliefs 'social credit' or any other such thing. It acknowledges them as flawed human beings, which we all are, and does not endorse any of those particular flaws but rather their basic dignity and humanity. That's it, and that's all.
.

If someone thinks they are superior because of their skin color they lack any basic dignity or humanity.

[thesloppy]

Completely regardless of whatever isms they might ascribe to I think there is a significant amount of sociopaths that are simply incapable of extending that kind of basic empathy or understanding to anyone else and will instead attempt to exploit everyone they meet.

[RainMaker]

There are billions of people on this planet and a finite time we live. Why waste that time on a fascist or white supremacist?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are billions of people on this planet and a finite time we live. Why waste that time on a fascist or white supremacist?

Yup, this is what gets me. What's the end game here? I'd rather spend the time I have left enjoying things like my family, friends, hobbies, etc, than worry about if I'm superior to someone else based on the color of their skin or trying to horde as much power as possible.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If someone thinks they are superior because of their skin color they lack any basic dignity or humanity.

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not prepared to say that a sizable portion of the homo sapiens who have ever lived weren't actually human.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not prepared to say that a sizable portion of the homo sapiens who have ever lived weren't actually human.

Well, we can just call racists morally bankrupt cowards that lack any amount of compassion for their fellow humans then. And the irony of even having that perspective here in America when they are not even indigenous.

[RainMaker]

You can hang out with your racist friends, you don't need to justify it here.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not prepared to say that a sizable portion of the homo sapiens who have ever lived weren't actually human.

This is a rather oddly pedantic response. I mean, it's quite obvious that he wasn't talking about humans and our evolution.

[miked]

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend
It was the loveliest party that I've ever attended
If anything was broken I'm sure it could be mended
My head can't tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he's saying
This is where the party ends
I'll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's an interesting perspective. I'm not prepared to say that a sizable portion of the homo sapiens who have ever lived weren't actually human.

Remember that time I told you that at times you're guilty of trying to sound like the smartest guy in the room? You're doing it again.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Remember that time I told you that at times you're guilty of trying to sound like the smartest guy in the room? You're doing it again.

It was a somewhat feeble attempt however

[thesloppy]

I can't be the only one put off by the mountain of people on the internet that spend an awful lot of their time repeatedly & directly arguing against & judging real people, based on the stuggestion that we shouldn't be arguing against & judging any hypothetical people?

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

It was a somewhat feeble attempt however

I stand by my deluded comment.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

This is a rather oddly pedantic response. I mean, it's quite obvious that he wasn't talking about humans and our evolution.

That's not obvious to me at all. The claim literally was that racists don't have humanity or dignity.

Originally Posted by Lathum

Remember that time I told you that at times you're guilty of trying to sound like the smartest guy in the room? You're doing it again.

Allow me to step back here then and be educated. How can/should I put it better or more respectfully. I thought, and still do, that the statement made lacks an important historic perspective. So how do I make that point in a way that doesn't sound/read/etc. the negative way you are describing?

The way it looks to me is a pot.kettle.black situation. I can quote specific examples if it would be helpful, but the level of arrogance and condescension incoming in my direction has been far greater than anything I've put out there. I'm not above improvement in any way, but if I came into this as someone who didn't have any history with any of us and was looking for that, I wouldn't be the poster that jumped out.

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I can't be the only one put off by the mountain of people on the internet that spend an awful lot of their time repeatedly & directly arguing against & judging real people, based on the stuggestion that we shouldn't be arguing against & judging any hypothetical people?

I think it's self-evident that there's been a lot more judging headed my direction in this conversation than the other way around. As for the arguing part - isn't that the point of these kinds of discussions? To expose ourselves to other ideas and counter those we think are wrong?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's not obvious to me at all. The claim literally was that racists don't have humanity or dignity.

There is more than one definition to the word "humanity".

Humanity | Definition of Humanity at Dictionary.com

1. all human beings collectively; the human race; humankind.
2. the quality or condition of being human; human nature.
3. the quality of being humane; kindness; benevolence.

[Brian Swartz]

Point taken, but I would stand by my response under any of those three meanings.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's not obvious to me at all. The claim literally was that racists don't have humanity or dignity.

The thing is, you originally brought up dignity and humanity though (unless I totally missed someone else bringing it up before you) and the context of what you wrote, had nothing to do with human evolution. It was about people's beliefs and their flaws and giving them social credit. If you were referring to human evolution, it's not very clear at all and looks more like you are talking about what makes us human in how we interact with each other as a society.

I'm not saying that you should have the perfect response to everyone's questions or comments, but, it does give the appearance you are being a bit disingenuous.

[Brian Swartz]

I do certainly give people leeway for misunderstanding what people of differing opinions say. I think I've been quite consistent though in this thread and the other in emphasizing that what I'm talking about is common to all people by nature of their being people, period, before you get into anything else. In the post I think you are referring to, I specifically contrasted the concepts of dignity and humanity with beliefs, social credit, etc. I don't know how to read what I wrote and conclude I was equating them. I think it clearly doesn't say that at all.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Butter

This whole far right resurgence has been a result of growing social acceptance of it. A whole bunch of people who didn't realize that it was still widely accepted by a large portion of this country were given permission not only to let their voices be heard, but to act out violently about it.

This needs to be stuffed back in the bottle and eradicated. By any means necessary. A little social shunning should be the least of their fucking concern.

Originally Posted by Radii

YES, this.

I actually disagree here. The mainstream politically far right resurgence isn't because there's growing social acceptance of racism, it's because it was becoming socially unacceptable to be subtly or kind of passively racist. Unfortunately when they kept getting called on it a large number decided to double down and take pride in being openly racist (and Twitter etc gave them a space where they found acceptance doing so). But there's no way this country is more accepting of racism as a whole than 20, or 40, or 60 years ago, it's just that section is louder than it has been since the 60's.

Don't disagree that they should be called out on any nonsense, though for the friends of friends I've come across occasionally who are proud Trump supporters but not Proud Boys or in the KKK I'm happy enough to watch a football game or hang out on a porch and play some drinking games with them as long as they stay away from those topics, and if they end up straying towards them I have no problem telling them I think they're a fucking idiot, so do most people here, and we should probably just go back to talking about sports or other things if that offends them.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by miked

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend
It was the loveliest party that I've ever attended
If anything was broken I'm sure it could be mended
My head can't tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he's saying
This is where the party ends
I'll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend

My wife was asking what I was reading and gave her the quick synopsis. She started singing these lyrics about 2 posts before I got here and mentioned she loved the line "Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

SI

[Butter]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I actually disagree here. The mainstream politically far right resurgence isn't because there's growing social acceptance of racism, it's because it was becoming socially unacceptable to be subtly or kind of passively racist. Unfortunately when they kept getting called on it a large number decided to double down and take pride in being openly racist (and Twitter etc gave them a space where they found acceptance doing so). But there's no way this country is more accepting of racism as a whole than 20, or 40, or 60 years ago, it's just that section is louder than it has been since the 60's.

Don't disagree that they should be called out on any nonsense, though for the friends of friends I've come across occasionally who are proud Trump supporters but not Proud Boys or in the KKK I'm happy enough to watch a football game or hang out on a porch and play some drinking games with them as long as they stay away from those topics, and if they end up straying towards them I have no problem telling them I think they're a fucking idiot, so do most people here, and we should probably just go back to talking about sports or other things if that offends them.

Why not both?

[GrantDawg]

Law and Order:

Chaotic scene in BLM Plaza as police clash with Trump supporters trying to rush the line #DC #WashingtonDC #January6th pic.twitter.com/wjGsUSaCWH

— Brendan Gutenschwager (@BGOnTheScene) January 6, 2021

[GrantDawg]

Paging Dr. Darwin. Paging Dr. Darwin:

Pro-Trump rally speaker in D.C. tells attendees to hug while yelling “mass spreader event” repeatedly. pic.twitter.com/6ZVJgP3VnT

— The Recount (@therecount) January 5, 2021

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Law and Order:

Chaotic scene in BLM Plaza as police clash with Trump supporters trying to rush the line #DC #WashingtonDC #January6th pic.twitter.com/wjGsUSaCWH

— Brendan Gutenschwager (@BGOnTheScene) January 6, 2021

Blue Lives Matter?

[miami_fan]

One thing about this administration. Their commitment to destroying the Civil Rights Act is going down to the very last day.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/05/polit...act/index.html

[AlexB]

Nobody has ever done more for the black community?

[JediKooter]

Word is, articles of impeachment are being drawn up and twitter has suspended the orange buffoons' account.

[GrantDawg]

They are not going to impeach him. They should, but they won't.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Ben E Lou]

CNN is basically reporting that Pence is running the country right now, coordinating with National Guard, Homeland Security, etc. No real word on what's up with Trump.

[larrymcg421]

Could the 25th have already been invoked without us knowing?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

CNN is basically reporting that Pence is running the country right now, coordinating with National Guard, Homeland Security, etc. No real word on what's up with Trump.

I have a feeling he's leaving DC within the next couple of days and is done pretending to be president. Not sure if he resigns or not, but I think his presidency is effectively over.

[GrantDawg]

The video of the woman being shot is bad. She was a protester, btw. She was wearing a Trump flag as a cape.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The video of the woman being shot is bad. She was a protester, btw. She was wearing a Trump flag as a cape.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Guess she shouldn’t have broken into the capitol building. Should have shot more of them.

[Brian Swartz]

Impeachment now would be such an empty gesture. There's nowhere near enough time.

[JPhillips]

Not true. The House could pass a single article tonight if they wanted.

Then it's up to McConnell on whether he wants to own all the shit coming in the next two weeks.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

CNN is basically reporting that Pence is running the country right now, coordinating with National Guard, Homeland Security, etc. No real word on what's up with Trump.

Trump has to be removed. This isn't a precedent you want to set either.

[Brian Swartz]

Sure they *could*, but impeachment has never been done that way before. There's always debate in committees, debate on the floor, etc. It would just be unserious theatre to do that kind of thing.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Guess she shouldn’t have broken into the capitol building. Should have shot more of them.

I'm sort of torn between "people shouldn't be shot over public property" and "y'all seemed to be all for people getting shot over public property when it was Portland, so stupid games/stupid prizes is in play".

I'd like to think I'll end up taking the high road here, so I'm staying off of social media for the most part.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Could the 25th have already been invoked without us knowing?

I can't imagine Trump wouldn't object and then it would go to Congress.

I also don't think there are enough cabinet secretaries willing to do it.

[Jas_lov]

The impeachment and removal would be so he can't hold federal office in the future. If you can't be impeached for inciting a coup to overthrow the Capitol what can you be impeached for?

[Atocep]

NBC reporting there is serious discussions on invoking the 25th although it hasn't been presented to Pence yet.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I can't imagine Trump wouldn't object and then it would go to Congress.

I also don't think there are enough cabinet secretaries willing to do it.

Yeah that was also my thought, but then I was wondering how Pence was able to order the National Guard when it seems like Trump previously refused.

[GrantDawg]

CBS reporter Marg Brennan is reporting that Cabinet is meeting to discuss the 25th.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Drake

I'm sort of torn between "people shouldn't be shot over public property" and "y'all seemed to be all for people getting shot over public property when it was Portland, so stupid games/stupid prizes is in play".

I'd like to think I'll end up taking the high road here, so I'm staying off of social media for the most part.

I don't mind if people are shot when trying to overthrow a democratically elected government.

[sterlingice]

It looks like the hearings are going like this:

Mitch: (death glare) I call on the Senator from {state} and I'll cut you if you try to object
GOP Senator: I was going to object but it's clear we can't do that now (hangs head)
Chuck: (grumble) I call on the Senator from {state} to pander
Dem Senator: Waxes poetic with some grandstanding or cheesy anecdote while basically saying "I told you so, you dumb effs"

Rinse and repeat

SI

[sterlingice]

Cory Booker not mincing words

SI

[kingfc22]

Great job by Booker. He doesn’t give a flying F.

Need more of that. Call them on their bullshit.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yeah that was also my thought, but then I was wondering how Pence was able to order the National Guard when it seems like Trump previously refused.

I think the same way Cheney ordered fighters to shoot down unknown contacts. He did it and the military listened. It's really dangerous and shouldn't be accepted even though in this case it was clearly the right decision. Trump has to be removed if he's not going to be able to control the military.