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Old 06-11-2020, 09:56 AM   #251
JPhillips
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Originally Posted by henry296 View Post
the owners lose money on each regular season game played.

So they say, but they won't open the books to prove it. I think it's equally possible that some or all of the teams will make the same amount regardless of games played, so they want to play as few as possible so they don't have to pay the players as much. We don't know how TV and digital rights will work for the teams this year.
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:00 AM   #252
henry296
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Originally Posted by JPhillips View Post
So they say, but they won't open the books to prove it. I think it's equally possible that some or all of the teams will make the same amount regardless of games played, so they want to play as few as possible so they don't have to pay the players as much. We don't know how TV and digital rights will work for the teams this year.

Fair clarification. that is why they say they want less games.
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Old 06-13-2020, 12:10 PM   #253
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I am still annoyed with both owners and players, but this is pretty funny.

https://twitter.com/TheCUTCH22/statu...42027092660225
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Old 06-13-2020, 01:26 PM   #254
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At this point, shut it down. Who wants a 50 game season, played while NBA/hockey playoffs are going and NFL/college FB are in full swing? Baseball was in a bad position because they hadn't played at all so the money issue was much more of an issue for them versus the other sports, but they screwed this up big time.

And honestly, as much of a baseball fan as I used to be, I just don't care like I used to. I had already decided to cancel the MLB package before the shutdown. I don't follow the game anymore, even though I still watched it a fair amount. But I have no clue who half the players are.
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Old 06-13-2020, 01:45 PM   #255
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I really don't care about a 50 game season. I'd rather have a 25 game minor league season locally, so at least I can go to a game. I don't care about who the WORLD CHAMPION is at that point any longer.
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Old 06-13-2020, 04:12 PM   #256
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At this point, I think it'd be great to just have a big tournament. Have a group stage with each team playing home and away three game series against each other team its division. And then have the top 2 teams in each division move onto a 6 team playoffs in each league. Have them play best of 7s all the way through the WS.


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Old 06-13-2020, 06:01 PM   #257
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Yeah, crying poor, then signing a billion dollar deal to air part of the post season. It's just greedy owners being greedy.

edit: and if you think we're going to have any baseball in 2022, I would doubt it. I mean, the owners just lost, what, 3/4ths of a season, and will make it up? They'll want everything including the players first born sons. Fuck them,
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Old 06-13-2020, 06:28 PM   #258
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At this point, I think it'd be great to just have a big tournament. Have a group stage with each team playing home and away three game series against each other team its division. And then have the top 2 teams in each division move onto a 6 team playoffs in each league. Have them play best of 7s all the way through the WS.

Congrats. You just came up with one thing I'd have even less interest in than the steadily shortened seasons already on the table.

Please, MLB, just punt on the season already. It's done & dusted, anything you do at this point (by the time anything starts) is no more than a meaningless exhibition anyway.
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Old 06-13-2020, 07:19 PM   #259
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Its all a pissing match getting ready for the CBA. Owners want the players to flinch then they can use ut against them. Players trying to avoid that.
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Old 06-13-2020, 07:34 PM   #260
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Its all a pissing match getting ready for the CBA. Owners want the players to flinch then they can use ut against them. Players trying to avoid that.

Pilots are in the same boat in a way. The company wants concessions, while we're in major contract negotiations on a contract that expired in January 2019, when we weren't about to give anything away before, and we aren't likely to be really excited to give anything away now. Not when historically, it shows that it takes 10 years to get that stuff back again. Sure, we'll operate with MOU's and some LOA's here and there. Those will be fine, they'll have finite experations. That's how things will get done. But it still doesn't mean that we want a weaker stance to start from when we do go back to the table for the big stuff again.
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Old 06-13-2020, 08:51 PM   #261
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https://twitter.com/molly_knight/sta...293049344?s=21


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Old 06-15-2020, 06:01 PM   #262
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MLB: Take this offer.
MLBPA: No thanks.
MLB: What if I rearranged it a little bit, same offer though.
MLBPA: No. We're willing to move but we need to see you moving a bit more.
MLB: What if we sprayed our previous offer with some new car smell?
MLBPA: Right, negotiations are over. Tell us where and when to play, we'll be there.

MLB: I'm not sure we want a season any more.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:12 PM   #263
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Manfred and Tony Clark have both been disasters in their roles. There hasn't been a worse commissioner or MLBPA Director in my lifetime. As mentioned above, it's not even clear Manfred likes baseball and Clark's go-to negotiating tactic is to not negotiate.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:14 PM   #264
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The MLBPA did negotiate prorated salaries in March.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:21 PM   #265
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So are MLB and the owners seriously suggesting that in March when they negotiated they envisioned a full season played in front of fans? While it’s a bad look for guys who make 10 million a year to be quibbling about this right now, I’m pretty sure who I’m going to put more of the blame on here.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:23 PM   #266
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Players signed a contract and said they would honor it. How is any of this on them?
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:39 PM   #267
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Players signed a contract and said they would honor it. How is any of this on them?

He got out negotiated in 2016 and has been whining about it ever since. If that deal didn't get him replaced then what he agreed to in March certainly should have. He pushed for $170 million guaranteed without getting any guarantees on the framework of a schedule or guarantees that games would be played. He agreed to cut 1100 minor league jobs this year and about 600 next year but he got the year of service time in the event any games are played.

He gave the league full control over creating a schedule, but doesn't want to play 50 games because that $170 million that was guaranteed is considered an upfront payment on salaries in the event any games are played. So only playing 50 games at full prorated probably doesn't make things worth it for the top tier of salaries.

The owners have been terrible as well, but Tony Clark is a absolute disaster and with a better PA President we probably already have an agreement for games.

I'm not taking sides here, as I said, both are in the wrong. However, watching Tony Clark continue to shit the bed in negotiations, then whine about the agreement, and then refuse to negotiate further is getting old.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:41 PM   #268
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So are MLB and the owners seriously suggesting that in March when they negotiated they envisioned a full season played in front of fans? While itís a bad look for guys who make 10 million a year to be quibbling about this right now, Iím pretty sure who Iím going to put more of the blame on here.

I'll absolutely agree the owners have been awful, but we have 150 years of evidence that the owners are going to do the cheap and shitty thing when given the opportunity. The deal the MLBPA agreed to in March gave the owners way too much wiggle room to be shitty.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:41 PM   #269
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Clark has sucked in the past but I don't know what people want him to do here. Why would you take less money than you agreed to?
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:56 PM   #270
SirFozzie
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Yeah, it's not going to happen:

https://twitter.com/BillShaikin/stat...35259360702464

Source: In a letter today, MLB told the MLBPA there would be no 2020 season unless the players waived any legal claims against the league.

Translation: We won't play unless you waive a potential grievance.
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Old 06-15-2020, 06:59 PM   #271
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(this is not just for COVID-19 claims, but the not negotiating in good-faith etcetera.)
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Old 06-15-2020, 07:04 PM   #272
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[quote=Atocep;3286251
The owners have been terrible as well, but Tony Clark is a absolute disaster and with a better PA President we probably already have an agreement for games.

I'm not taking sides here, as I said, both are in the wrong. However, watching Tony Clark continue to shit the bed in negotiations, then whine about the agreement, and then refuse to negotiate further is getting old.[/QUOTE]



Give me a freaking break here. They made 3 offers, moving pretty significantly each time to which the owners offered the same damn thing three times in a row, and then said "Ok, we'll play, tell us when and where" and MLB's now like "I'm not sure there's going to be a season unless you give us everything?"

If both sides are "in the wrong", one side is in the light and fluffy "wrong", the other is in the deep dark oubliette of Wrong-ness
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Old 06-15-2020, 07:22 PM   #273
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IMO, the owners want the fewest game possible before the playoffs - so they are stalling until all they can do is a 50-game season. Then they will be more aggressive.
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:17 PM   #274
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Rob Manfred is a fucking hack. Got called on his bullshit, now doing everything they can to delay until they get their 50 games, which will end up being the same salary at the full pro-rated amount they offered in their last proposal for 72 games.
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:24 PM   #275
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:39 PM   #276
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Manfred making Selig look good

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Old 06-16-2020, 12:04 PM   #277
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Manfred making Selig look good

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I was going to say Gary Bettman
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Old 06-19-2020, 12:34 PM   #278
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8 confirmed cases at the Phillies camp. I can't see how any league is going to be able to play a season in the U.S.
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:00 PM   #279
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8 confirmed cases at the Phillies camp. I can't see how any league is going to be able to play a season in the U.S.

You mean any league in any sport? Even in this broad sense I agree. Sadly, I don't believe we've seen the worst of this COVID crisis yet.
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:29 PM   #280
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I've been trying to figure this out for the past couple of months. They can force a start/restart, but what happens when positives come up? You're already talking about shortened/compromised seasons to begin with, so if you're shuttling players in and out of the lineup due to positive tests, doesn't that just further make any season that much more suspect?

I mean, I guess you can trick yourself into equating a positive test with an ankle sprain or something, but we all know what it is and that those players would be active but for this situation. If LeBron and a couple other stars test positive during the last few weeks of the postseason, what good is playing? Or several NFL teams lose their starting QBs? At what point do you have to shut down a league for a few weeks? What happens if TX/OK become the new epicenter - does the Big 12 football season end, but the rest of the country plays on? I haven't seen anyone attempt to answer these questions. It's all about how/when things get started back up.
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:30 PM   #281
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You mean any league in any sport? Even in this broad sense I agree. Sadly, I don't believe we've seen the worst of this COVID crisis yet.

Yeah. Any team/staff is at risk and the odds seem clear that at least one team is going to experience an outbreak. I can see games, maybe even a tournament, but I don't see how a season will work.
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Old 06-19-2020, 01:41 PM   #282
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The German Bundesliga has been going for a few weeks with few issues, so I don't think it's any league in any sport - countries with better covid responses have potentially better outcomes. But US sports are going to have real problems.

Though NASCAR has done a fairly good job (and I don't think people realize how many people are on each team in NASCAR)

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Old 06-19-2020, 01:50 PM   #283
Ksyrup
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I haven't even heard that NASCAR is testing. I'm sure they are, but unlike other sports, you don't hear about it. And of course, while everyone on the crew is important, there's only one driver.

Racing, golf, tennis - those seem to be pretty easy to pull off (other than the international aspect of some of the competitors, I guess). For the true team sports playing in the US, I can see a plan for starting, I just don't understand what the contingencies are if/when complications arise.
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:09 PM   #284
sterlingice
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I'm still watching CPBL games. Then again, Taiwan hasn't had a new case of Coronavirus in like 2 months at this point

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Old 06-19-2020, 03:02 PM   #285
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I believe we are inching toward the 'people are gonna get sick, we'll just have to accept it' method of handling the pandemic.

FWIW, if we had the same death per/1M pop rate that Sweeden had, we'd have 44,346 more deaths at this moment in time, than we have right now. If it was the same as the UK, we'd have an additional 41,699 on top of that.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:11 PM   #286
JPhillips
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3 MLB camps closed today because of COVID. MLB may close all camps for cleaning.

A season isn’t going to work.
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Old 06-19-2020, 07:18 PM   #287
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3 MLB camps closed today because of COVID. MLB may close all camps for cleaning.

A season isn’t going to work.

I can't imagine trying to run a big league camp through this. My son's travel team can only do groups no larger than 5 (although I think we're one of the few actually following that) and his college conference is expected to release similar guidelines for training throughout the fall and winter.

I want to see baseball, but with what it takes to actually play big league games and the fact that we're talking about having teams travel all over the country I just don't see how it works.

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Old 06-19-2020, 07:51 PM   #288
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Softball has been a vastly superior game to watch over baseball for several years. And now MLB is discussing some modifications similar to SB for 2020 (assuming it happens) such as starting extra innings with a runner on 2B and re-entry substitutions. Interesting.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:35 AM   #289
sterlingice
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Tie games, altered extra innings format possibilities for 2020 MLB season, per report - CBSSports.com

I'm ok with the 60-70 game season because it is what it is. Though I think there's a decent chance it won't even be that by the time we're all said and done. And I think a significant portion of my ambivalence has to do with the Royals being in the middle of a rebuild.

But I'm no excited about the gimmicky extra innings runners and the like. Just go with ties if you want to minimize the time and call it good. I dislike ties but I really don't like the oddball rules changes.

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Old 06-20-2020, 10:49 AM   #290
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You will come to enjoy the runner on 2nd rule in extra innings. Think of it as OT. Just like you didnt like the old NFL OT rules, the change they made is better. Just like you were not a fan of ties in college football, the OT makes it infinitely better.

It brings strategy to the extra innings and saves pitchers.
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Old 06-20-2020, 10:52 AM   #291
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It brings strategy to the extra innings and saves pitchers.


You mean eliminates the beauty of the game in favor of gimmicky horseshit that's absurd at every level it's ever been used.

No biggie, there's other stuff I can do with my time than watch a travesty. But I'd rather they not play at all than do buggery shit like this.
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Old 06-20-2020, 01:22 PM   #292
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I would rather they put a cap on extra innings, say 3, then call it a tie. I do like DH's in both leagues to save pitchers. We will see if that leads to discussion about making it a permanent thing. I have a feeling the MLBPA will want universal DH for the next deal.
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Old 06-20-2020, 01:27 PM   #293
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The DH thing is such a non-issue these days. Starting pitchers barely go 5 innings, so they get maybe 2 ABs before PHs bat for the pitchers the rest of the game anyway. This essentially substitutes the PH at the beginning of the game instead of the 4-6th innings.
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:43 PM   #294
BYU 14
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The DH thing is such a non-issue these days. Starting pitchers barely go 5 innings, so they get maybe 2 ABs before PHs bat for the pitchers the rest of the game anyway. This essentially substitutes the PH at the beginning of the game instead of the 4-6th innings.

True, but it lets teams carry more pitchers with no need to pinch hit 2-3 times a game.
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:57 PM   #295
tarcone
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You mean eliminates the beauty of the game in favor of gimmicky horseshit that's absurd at every level it's ever been used.

No biggie, there's other stuff I can do with my time than watch a travesty. But I'd rather they not play at all than do buggery shit like this.

Well, MLB has done lots of silly things throughout its history. Change is inevitable.
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Old 06-20-2020, 03:23 PM   #296
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True, but it lets teams carry more pitchers with no need to pinch hit 2-3 times a game.

I badly, badly do not want this. I want fewer pitching changes not more. I'm not saying "ALL PITCHERS MUST PITCH COMPLETE GAMES". But I also don't want 4 pitchers facing 5 batters in an inning. As baseball heads to even more specialization, trying to squeeze out every marginal advantage, it will lead to even more stoppages of play in a game that badly needs to cut back on them.

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Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out!

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Last edited by sterlingice : 06-20-2020 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 06-20-2020, 03:24 PM   #297
Ksyrup
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Don't they already have a rule requiring pitchers to pitch to 3 batters?
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Old 06-20-2020, 03:28 PM   #298
sterlingice
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
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Originally Posted by Ksyrup View Post
Don't they already have a rule requiring pitchers to pitch to 3 batters?

It's on the books to start this season, whenever that is.

SI
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Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out!

Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!"
Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"


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Old 06-20-2020, 04:47 PM   #299
BYU 14
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Originally Posted by sterlingice View Post
I badly, badly do not want this. I want fewer pitching changes not more. I'm not saying "ALL PITCHERS MUST PITCH COMPLETE GAMES". But I also don't want 4 pitchers facing 5 batters in an inning. As baseball heads to even more specialization, trying to squeeze out every marginal advantage, it will lead to even more stoppages of play in a game that badly needs to cut back on them.

SI

Trust, I feel the same way and the 'opener' drives me nuts. I am happy for the 3 batter minimum rule but there are still way too many pitching changes, to were you can almost count on seeing 4-5 pitchers every game.

I also wish MLB would come up with some type of functional rule to speed up at bats.
1-No pick off attempts
2-No stepping out of the batters box between pitches unless there is an injury and if you do it's a strike
3-15 seconds from the pitcher getting the ball to pitch or its a ball

Anything to get games down to around 2 1/2 hours.

Last edited by BYU 14 : 06-20-2020 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 06-20-2020, 05:19 PM   #300
SackAttack
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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I believe we are inching toward the 'people are gonna get sick, we'll just have to accept it' method of handling the pandemic.

FWIW, if we had the same death per/1M pop rate that Sweeden had, we'd have 44,346 more deaths at this moment in time, than we have right now. If it was the same as the UK, we'd have an additional 41,699 on top of that.

I'm entirely comfortable in suggesting that, yeah, we probably HAVE had 50k more deaths than what's been reported. If you look at the spike in respiratory deaths compared to 'normal' for the Feb-April period, and consider that tests were scarce and certainly not being used on the dead to determine whether or not they were infected...
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