Football Officiating - Career Progression

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

I'm going to do these one at a time and not look at the answers below...

Team A will be given the option for B's penalty and decline it to keep the ball. Team B will be given the option on the first penalty and probably accept it to give A a 5-yard penalty from the original LOS. I would assume that Team B would also have the option of declining the first penalty to give Team A the ball and a first-and-ten if the resulting field position made that option appealing.

Edit: After reading the other answers, I see that I forgot about the facemask penalty after the interception. Since high school doesn't care if the facemask was twisted, this is a penalty. A can't get the ball back after the fumble since they fail the "hands clean" guideline. I'll change my answer to the illegal motion penalty being declined (as it isn't a dead ball foul), and the clip and facemask penalties being assessed from the spot of the interception.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

A's ball, 1st down and goal from the 10. It is a 10 yard spot foul enforced from the goal line.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

False. Until the ball touches the ground, B is the only team with a right to the ball. This would be an illegal touching penalty and a re-kick.

[Dr. Sak]

Question #3: At the snap, A is flagged for illegal motion, and B intercepts a legal forward pass and advances. During B's run, B2 clips and A3 grasps btu does not twist B1's facemask. B fumbles and A recovers. What do we have...and don't say a clusterfuck?

Answer:

Spoiler

As long as there are no unsportsman like or dead ball fouls, anytime there are live ball fouls by both teams, you will replay the down. If A commits 4 live ball fouls and B only 1, you still replay the down.

Suburban, illegal motion is not a penalty until the ball is snapped. Up until that time the player still has time to set.

Question #4: 1st and goal for A at B's 8. A1 runs for a touchdown, but during the run, A2 is flagged for holding in B's endzone. B accepts the penalty. The next play is ___'s ball, ___down and ___to go at the ___ yard line.

Answer:

Spoiler

Most of you got this correct. The spot of the foul is the goal line, the penalty is 10 yards and replay the down. So it is A's ball, first and goal from the 10.

Question #5: True of False: K kicks an onsides kick which does not hit the ground and goes 12 yards. At that point A beats B to the ball and catches it out of the air on B's 48 yardline where A is promptly tackled. It is first and 10 for A at B's 48 yard line.

Answer:

Spoiler

The correct answer is False. Just like for a post scrimmage kick (punt), R has exclusive rights to the ball until it hits the ground. That is why when you see onsides kicks the kicker kicks the ball into the ground first.

The penalty is not illegal touching however, it is kick catch interference.

Good job so far guys. Let's see what else I can dig up.

[BrianD]

Is there any rule that says a receiving team member has to be attempting a catch, or in position to attempt a catch for it to be kick catch interference?

[digamma]

For #5, doesn't the player on the receiving team have to be in a position where he reasonably could have caught the kick?

[Dr. Sak]

I really don't think but I am going to double check and see.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by digamma

For #5, doesn't the player on the receiving team have to be in a position where he reasonably could have caught the kick?

The reason that I asked my question (and used the illegal touching) is that I know kicking team players in the NFL occasionally catch a punt on the fly once the receiver has left hoping for a touchback. I don't think I've seen that happen at any other level and I don't know if the NFL has a special rule for this situation.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by BrianD

The reason that I asked my question (and used the illegal touching) is that I know kicking team players in the NFL occasionally catch a punt on the fly once the receiver has left hoping for a touchback. I don't think I've seen that happen at any other level and I don't know if the NFL has a special rule for this situation.

Probably a judgement call on if someone was attempting to actually try to catch the ball which is what I thought was going on when the phrase 'Player A beat B to the ball...'

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Probably a judgement call on if someone was attempting to actually try to catch the ball which is what I thought was going on when the phrase 'Player A beat B to the ball...'

Sure, I can see where kick catch interference was implied by the stated situation. I'm still curious what happens when there was nobody from the receiving team present?

[Dr. Sak]

My rule book and case book is in the car. I'll have the answer sometime tonight.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

My rule book and case book is in the car. I'll have the answer sometime tonight.

Just like instant replay, gotta wait for the refs.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Just like instant replay, gotta wait for the refs.

We strive to get it right!

[dacman]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Just like instant replay, gotta wait for the refs.

YouTube - 2003 Super Bowl Commercial Budweiser Clydesdales

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

My rule book and case book is in the car. I'll have the answer sometime tonight.

What? You can't run outside to your car now? Are you some bozo who has to park a mile away and ride a shuttle bus to work?

[Dr. Sak]

Free Kicks or Kickoffs

Rule 6-1.5 - Any K player may recover a free kick if it has BOTH touched the ground and goes beyond the plane of R's free kick line. The two requirements may occur in any order.

Scrimmage Kick or Punt

Rule 6-5.6 - While any free kick is in flight in or beyond the neutral zone to R's goal line or any scrimmage kick is in flight beyond the neutral zone to the recievers goal line, K shall not:

a. Touch the ball or R, unless blocked into th eball or R, or to ward off a blocker or

b. Obstruct R's path to the ball.

This prohibition applies even when no fair catch signal is given, but it does not apply after a free kick has been touched by a receiver, or after a scrimmage kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of the touching.

EXCEPTION: K may catch, touch, muff or bat a scrimmage kick in flight beyond the neutral zone if no player of R is in position to catch the ball.

So in short it is legal to catch a punt in the air if no R is present but illegal to catch a kickoff in the air even if there is no R present.

[digamma]

Thanks. That's different from the way the college rule is written.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Suburban, illegal motion is not a penalty until the ball is snapped. Up until that time the player still has time to set. [/spoiler]

See in my version, 2 guys were moving at the snap

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

See in my version, 2 guys were moving at the snap

Even in your case those guys can both be in motion, just as long as they both set before the snap.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

See in my version, 2 guys were moving at the snap

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Even in your case those guys can both be in motion, just as long as they both set before the snap.

The message, as always, is don't f*&^ with Dr. Sak.

[Dr. Sak]

If you guys would like...I'll continue this tomorrow.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

The message, as always, is don't f*&^ with Dr. Sak.

I said AT the snap, so they couldn't have been set.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Oh, and yeah...continue please. I liked these. Though my boss wishes you wouldn't, cause they cut into my work.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

If you guys would like...I'll continue this tomorrow.

Totally.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

If you guys would like...I'll continue this tomorrow.

I enjoy these as well. If I think of it, I'll even post one I found on an officiating website. It might even stump you.

[Dr. Sak]

Three short ones to start the day...

Question #6:
During a scrimmage kick B10 calls for a fair catch on B's 30, a) when he catches the ball he decides to run with it; b) he blocks A legally and the ball hits the ground behind him. What penalties, if any, occurred in a) and b)?

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; thenR8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

Question #8
There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Question #8There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

1. Penalty
2. A team scored on the play
3. Ball goes out of bounds
4. Incomplete pass
5. Change of possession
6. End of quarter
7. A team calls time out
8. A player is injured (or other reason for an official time out)
9. ?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Three short ones to start the day...

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; thenR8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

I am pretty sure that K7's leg touch does not down the ball. And R8 didn't muff the punt, but got possession and then fumbled. So, I think that it is just K ball first and ten on R's 40.

[Aylmar]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I am pretty sure that K7's leg touch does not down the ball. And R8 didn't muff the punt, but got possession and then fumbled. So, I think that it is just K ball first and ten on R's 40.

I know in the NFL, any touching of the ball by the kicking team beyond the line of scrimmage is illegal touching at the spot. This insulates the receiving team from mishap (other than fouls they commit, which will impact the spot). This is why, on occasion, you see guys swoop in and try to get a loose ball that the kicking team has touched. The smart ones know that no matter what happens once they grab the ball, if it is a bad result, it will just come back to the spot where the kicking team first touched it. If something good happens, they decline the penalty and take the better result. Since there is no foul mentioned on the play by the R team, the ball will be spotted at the 32, R's ball.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Three short ones to start the day...

Question #6:
During a scrimmage kick B10 calls for a fair catch on B's 30, a) when he catches the ball he decides to run with it; b) he blocks A legally and the ball hits the ground behind him. What penalties, if any, occurred in a) and b)?

Both are penalties since you can't block after a fair catch call. Not sure what the actual penalties are though. USC?

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; thenR8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

Ball is placed at R's 32. The touch of the K leg is enough to down the ball, but since the ball wasn't controlled, R can still pick it up and run. I "think" they generally get a free play here.

Question #8
There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

1. Incomplete pass.
2. Run out of bounds.
3. Penalty.
4. Score.
5. Injury.
6. End of period.
7. Time out.
8. Measurement.
9. Referee requested stoppage.

Edit: Crap, forgot change of possession.

[Celeval]

Wouldn't measurement + referee requested stoppage be the same, there?

[BrianD]

Probably. I was sort-of guessing with my answers and had trouble coming up with #9. Replacing that with change of possession would probably be a good idea.

[Dr. Sak]

Question #6:
During a scrimmage kick B10 calls for a fair catch on B's 30, a) when he catches the ball he decides to run with it; b) he blocks A legally and the ball hits the ground behind him. What penalties, if any, occurred in a) and b)?

Answer:

Spoiler

There are penalties on both plays. In a) the penalty is delay of game. B would retain the ball first and 10 on their own 25. In b) it is an illegal block which carries a 15 yard penalty. So it would be 1st and 10 for B 15 yards or half the distance from the spot where the ball comes to rest.

Question #7
During a scrimmage kick, K punts the ball beyond the neutral zone where it hits the ground. While rolling it hits K7 in the leg on the R's 32,; then R8 picks up the ball on R's 30 and begins to run with it. During the run R8 fumbles and K6 recovers on the R's 40 yard line. Where will the ball be placed for 1st down?

Answer:

Spoiler

First touching by K occurs at R's 32. Anything that occurs after that point (not including unsportsmanlike fouls) can be nixed by R. R fumbled but since the touching occurred past the neutral zone, R can elect to bring it back to the point of first touching by K which would be the 32. First and 10 for R on their own 32.

Question #8
There are 9 reasons that the clock would be stopped after a play, how many can you name?

Answer:

Spoiler

1. Ball goes out of bounds.
2. B is awarded a new series.
3. Time out (official or team)
4. The period ends
5. Inadvertent whistle
6. Legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete
7. Down ends following a foul
8. After a fair catch
9. Score or touchdown occurs

I think that covers them all.

[BrianD]

Looks like I was 1-for-3. Anybody want to hire me to be a ref?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Looks like I was 1-for-3. Anybody want to hire me to be a ref?

Don't worry about missing questions. Just as long as you aren't the Referee or Umpire you are fine. Those two have to know everything.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Don't worry about missing questions. Just as long as you aren't the Referee or Umpire you are fine. Those two have to know everything.

I do enjoy these questions, and they are a great way to learn. I guess I'll just have to plan for a career as a Line Judge...

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I do enjoy these questions, and they are a great way to learn. I guess I'll just have to plan for a career as a Line Judge...

That's what I am!

[BrianD]

How hard is it dealing with the coaches and players? The LJ doesn't have quite the responsibility of the R or U in managing the whole game, but I would imagine they've got plenty to handle managing that sideline. Any good horror stories?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

How hard is it dealing with the coaches and players? The LJ doesn't have quite the responsibility of the R or U in managing the whole game, but I would imagine they've got plenty to handle managing that sideline. Any good horror stories?

I've been doing varsity for 2 years and I have a good number of stories. I won't name names but I'll fill you in on some.

There is one coach who has been coaching for close to 30 years at the same school. I got to Quad A ball really quick, most of the guys who get where I am are at least 10 years older than I am. So when he saw me he saw "fresh meat". He began the game by quizzing me during every down. Asking questions which I knew he knew the answer to, but he wanted to test me. I wasn't going to be a jerk, so I answered them all.

One of my responsibilities is to relay the penalty information to the coaches on my sideline. He got a 15 yard facemask, I ran to the sideline to tell him who it was on and before I got the number out of my mouth he started screaming at me. I just turned and walked away. After halftime, the coach goes up to the Referee and tells him I am not telling him the penalty information. The ref asks me if that is true and I responded..."I went to tell Mr [name redacted] the number and he started to talk to me. I didn't want to interrupt him because when I talk I expect the other person to listen and I wanted to extend him the same courtesy. So I wasn't able to get the number to him before the next play started."

The coaches mouth dropped. He didn't know what to say. Late in the fourth quarter he came over and apologized to me. I told my crew about and they told me that was the first time they ever heard that guy apologize for anything.

It's amazing how a team will act like their head coach. If the head coach is respectful, so is the team. If the head coach bitches...so will the team and his assistants. I did a game and on my sideline was a predominately black school. The game and his sideline was getting out of hand so I flagged him and gave his team a sideline warning. He flipped out on me and started yelling "He just did that because who we are and what we look like." I said to the coach "If you are inferring what I think you are, I would suggest that you either walk away or not say that again because if I hear that again, you will be out of this game."

In my first playoff game our crew had to be escourted off the field by police. During that game (ironically enough it was against the team I just mentioned but not at their home field) there were 9th grade coaches of the home team's school outside the team box yelling obscenities to us. When we told the head coach about it his response was "They aren't doing anything wrong, you are just blowing the game and want an excuse." The police escorted us off the field and an old man tried to hit us with a cane.

I have coaches stare me down when the make a call I don't like. I had another in a scrimmage stand behind me on a goalline play because he thought I missed the fact that his guy was in last play. Or coaches will play the game where they are the home team and want the away team to take the field first out of the locker room. Where in fact it has been a rule for 20 years that the home team has to go out first.

If you want to be a ref you have to learn one simple rule...when you step out on that field...the only friends you have are the ones wearing the stripes. The rest of the people there will turn on you in a heartbeat.

In my 2 years I have done 26 varsity games, 4 WPIAL playoff games, and 2 state playoff games. Last year I was one step away from doing the WPIAL finals at Heinz Field. I've been approached this year to take the NCAA test so I can start doing college ball.

If this is something you are thinking of doing...do it. I enjoy it and I bet you would too.

[Dr. Sak]

Dola...actually the LJ has MORE responsibility than the R or U. Don't tell any Referee I said this but they have the easiest job out there. They are responsible for one person and one person only...the quarterback. The umpire watches the interior linemen.

For LJ's and L's...

Presnap...make sure that there are 7 offensive linemen on the ball. Know who your eligible are and who is ineligible to go out for a pass. Watch for false start or offsides. Your key is the second WR in, if he motions away you watch him to make sure he doesnt start up early. If there are two men in motion, make sure they are set before the snap.

Snap...Watch the tackle on your side for hold AND the WR key incase he gets held at the line. Sweep your way watch the blocking out front...when the ball carrier passes you, you have him. YOU HAVE ALL SPOTS.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

If this is something you are thinking of doing...do it. I enjoy it and I bet you would too.

I have thought about doing this a number of times, but then I try to think of how I would handle some of the situations you describe and back off the idea. I'm not sure I am authoritative enough to not get rolled over by a hyper-aggressive coach.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I have thought about doing this a number of times, but then I try to think of how I would handle some of the situations you describe and back off the idea. I'm not sure I am authoritative enough to not get rolled over by a hyper-aggressive coach.

Those are only select situations. Don't let that deter you. I'm a hot head and have learned to just ignore them. If you show they are getting to you, they will keep doing it. If you ignore or just walk away, you will be fine.

I love getting them when they don't know the rules because once you do that one time, they will leave you alone out of embarrassment.

This one never fails...QB rolls out of the pocket and just chucks it away with no WR in sight. Flag come out...intentional grounding. Coach starts yelling he was out of the tackle box. I ask the coach what night it is...he said Friday Night...I say..that rules only works on Saturdays and Sundays coach. (NCAA and NFL)

[BrianD]

I'm going to provide #9.

K free kicks, a low bouncing kick that appears to be headed out of bounds deep in R territory. R doesn't attempt to recover, thinking it'll go OOB.

But after a crazy bounce, the ball is about to come to rest in bounds, near the sideline just outside of R's goal line. Before K can recover, R1, with 1 foot on the sideline, kicks the ball A) OOB. B) Into his own EZ where it is recovered by K, C) into and out of his own end zone.

What do you have?

[Dr. Sak]

My initial thought was below

a) Illegal Kicking by R. 15 yards but in this case half the distance. R's

b) Illegal kicking again by R but with K recovering they will decline the penalty and accept the touchdown.

c) Illegal kicking again by R but K will most likely accept the result of the play which would be a safety.

But after reading the key word I am going to go with in a). b), and c) the ball becomes dead just outside the goal line since R1's foot was on the out of bounds line which makes R1 an extension of the out of bounds line. 1st and 10 for R just outside their 1.

[BrianD]

I'm going to ignore your ultimate answer for a while in case anyone else is still playing, but I had a question. The ball is immediately dead in HS if a punt or kick crosses the goal line. What would happen in a situation where there was a muff before the ball went past and what would happen if "new force" pushed the ball past? Does that change anything?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm going to ignore your ultimate answer for a while in case anyone else is still playing, but I had a question. The ball is immediately dead in HS if a punt or kick crosses the goal line. What would happen in a situation where there was a muff before the ball went past and what would happen if "new force" pushed the ball past? Does that change anything?

Muffing or batting the ball IN FLIGHT is not considered a new force. So R could attempt to catch the ball but if it goes through it's hands and goes into the endzone there was no new force and it would be a touchback. But if the ball rolls they muff it and it goes into the endzone, it is a free ball.

[albionmoonlight]

Dr. S., another question.

When is a team decision to accept or decline a penalty final? I am thinking of the occassional situation where a defense may decline a third down penalty so that it becomes fourth down, but then may change its mind depending on whether the other team sends out the punter, FG kicker, or offense.

Is there a hard and fast rule for when a team has to choose and cannot take it back?

[Dr. Sak]

Once you make a decision on a penalty it is final. Now if you are going for two and want the ball spotted on the left hash...you break the huddle call time out...you can ask for a re-spot.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm going to provide #9.

K free kicks, a low bouncing kick that appears to be headed out of bounds deep in R territory. R doesn't attempt to recover, thinking it'll go OOB.

But after a crazy bounce, the ball is about to come to rest in bounds, near the sideline just outside of R's goal line. Before K can recover, R1, with 1 foot on the sideline, kicks the ball A) OOB. B) Into his own EZ where it is recovered by K, C) into and out of his own end zone.

What do you have?

Spoiler

Ruling on the play (which surprised me): Penalty on the kicking team for a kick out of bounds. Apparently with R out standing on the sideline, he is out of bounds. Touching the ball - even at rest - means the ball just went out of bounds. R gets the normal options of taking the ball where it went out, a 5-yard penalty and a re-kick, or taking the ball 25 yards from the spot of the kick. How's that for crazy?

[Dr. Sak]

Actually now that you said it...it makes sense. No chance in force by R so that for K "placed" the ball OOB. Nice one!