The Racing Breed

[path12]

Back in an indie game thread a few weeks ago, Billethius and Honolulu Blue both mentioned a horse racing game called The Racing Breed.

Having not seen it before, and waiting for a good racing game, I gave the demo a shot and then bought the game. I've been playing this exclusively ever since. This is a really good game.

Cons:
It is friggin' UGLY. Homemade genuine 1993 graphics ugly. And the interface is clunkier than it needs to be, you generally need an extra click or two to get to most of the places you'd want.

You are the owner of the horses, not the trainer. You hire a trainer who in turn has a favorite jockey he/she tries to use. I thought this would be a drawback because I wanted to specify the training, but in actuality it isn't, because you do get to enter the horses into the races you want -- and really, when you've got 25 horses in your stable scheduling individual workouts would be a giant fun-suck.

You can't breed your horses. This too I thought would be a problem, and it is an issue the devs are planning on getting into the next version (that's a ways out). What happens is that as horses retire, they do enter the breeding pool, so while the game starts out with real sires horses from your game eventually start showing up as sires and dams. I'd still like to be able to breed my own horses, but it isn't a game-killer by any stretch.

Sometimes it's a bit easy to find a superior claiming horse. You might need a house rule on when to claim horses.

Being wide is heavily penalized. If you're four wide in a turn, might as well write off the race. This is another issue that is on the list for improvement in future.

Pros:
I've never seen a horse racing game so formful. I can find longshots occasionally in the form. Horses really have their own personality as far as which class, distances and surfaces they prefer.

Auctions are well done, with four separate ones during the year: Horses of Racing Age, 2 year olds in Training, and both Yearling and Select Yearling sales. Prices can range from 1,000 to over a million bucks. The catalogs give the stud fee, the record of the dam and of the dam's best three foals for the 2YO and Yearling auctions, and the form for the Racing Age horses.

While the penalty for running wide might be slightly harsh, the traffic issues during a race I find to be pretty realistic for the most part.

I could go on, but just wanted to encourage anyone interested in the subject to give the demo a shot. I'm having a blast with the game.

www.theracingbreed.com

[MrBug708]

Is it better then the other horse racing game? The name is totally escaping me?

[TCY Junkie]

I really like the game but might be influenced because there is no other decent U.S. horse racing game.

I like starters orders but there are not different levels of claimers like in the U.S.

I am currently playing Winning Post 7 2007. They need to release another English version.

I definitely got my moneys worth on The Racing Breed and would also recommoned trying the demo if you can over look the graphics.

[billethius]

Originally Posted by path12

Sometimes it's a bit easy to find a superior claiming horse. You might need a house rule on when to claim horses.

Yeah, once I started winning making good money, I pretty much stopped claiming entirely. I allow myself just one per year. My stable is usually the maximum size (40), so the only time I'll look is if it's late in the year and I lost a horse to a claim or retired one.

Being wide is heavily penalized. If you're four wide in a turn, might as well write off the race. This is another issue that is on the list for improvement in future.

This one is really frustrating to me, and I think I posted about it on their forum. There are a lot times where a real jockey would either a) push their horses a little harder so as to not get caught so wide or b) hold their horse back a bit to not get caught so wide. The game doesn't handle that situation too well.

I could go on, but just wanted to encourage anyone interested in the subject to give the demo a shot. I'm having a blast with the game.

Agreed - for fans of US racing, I haven't found anything better.

[path12]

Originally Posted by billethius

This one is really frustrating to me, and I think I posted about it on their forum. There are a lot times where a real jockey would either a) push their horses a little harder so as to not get caught so wide or b) hold their horse back a bit to not get caught so wide. The game doesn't handle that situation too well.

That's exactly what needs to happen. It sucks to have a horse you've placed perfectly at a decent price end up just short of being able to take into the rail (whether by pushing up or pulling back) and stay 6 wide in the first turn.

I'm not sure how you'd program that, I guess by tweaking track position to be a slightly bigger priority then pace position.....

[PineTar]

no digital distribution for this game?

[billethius]

Originally Posted by PineTar

no digital distribution for this game?

Nope, but they're extremely fast with delivery once it's been ordered.

[path12]

It's almost embarrassing how much I've been playing this game. I haven't touched FM in like 3 weeks. If I ever decide to do a dynasty, it's going to be with this.

After a few hundred more races than the last time I mentioned it, I think I'm revising my opinion on being wide/blocked. I think it actually abstracts the myriad of racing luck factors nicely, as frustrating as it can be. If I have a horse that is well placed and healthy, it can overcome racing wide. Getting boxed in will screw you no matter what.

That said, I do still think the jockey positioning logic could be improved. There is no reason for your jockey to hang your horse five wide on the turn when he could rate him slightly and drop into nicer position.

[billethius]

Originally Posted by path12

It's almost embarrassing how much I've been playing this game. I haven't touched FM in like 3 weeks. If I ever decide to do a dynasty, it's going to be with this.

After a few hundred more races than the last time I mentioned it, I think I'm revising my opinion on being wide/blocked. I think it actually abstracts the myriad of racing luck factors nicely, as frustrating as it can be. If I have a horse that is well placed and healthy, it can overcome racing wide. Getting boxed in will screw you no matter what.

That said, I do still think the jockey positioning logic could be improved. There is no reason for your jockey to hang your horse five wide on the turn when he could rate him slightly and drop into nicer position.

Yeah, I play it a ton too. I'm still looking for a derby winner after 16 seasons, but I have had some nice horses. I had a filly who was a multiple G1 winner sprinting - even beating the boys repeatedly despite carrying 125lbs or more in those races.

It's also nice to see that not all aging curves are the same. I've had horses who were very fast as 2yos never develop beyond that point and I've had horses that took until their 4yo or 5yo season to really develop into anything beyond being competitive in allowance races and high claimers.

[path12]

You're farther along than I am, I'm in fall of my third year. Haven't had a G1 winner yet, but have had a couple of G3's. It took me until about halfway through my second year to start putting my better horses in graded events, especially the younger ones -- for some reason I wasn't putting together how much the speed ratings mirror real life and that 2YO's that are putting up high 80's and low 90's speed ratings can compete at pretty much any level. I tend to baby the younger horses though and never race them unless their condition is 100.

One thing I love is my older horses dropping into the mid-low claiming ranks. 6 and 7 year olds rarely get claimed and when you get one that can just rule at $20-25K it's a wonderful thing for the bank account until they're finally claimed or retired.

I want to bombard the developers about what a friendly user interface should look like though......

[QuikSand]

Hmmm... I gave the demo a quick look, and wasn't all that hooked. But it's close enough to the game I want, I guess I'll take the plunge.

[Capital]

So, is this thread telling me that I can play the game as a stable owner and not have to bet? In other words, can one survive on purse money instead of having to bet?

[billethius]

Originally Posted by Capital

So, is this thread telling me that I can play the game as a stable owner and not have to bet? In other words, can one survive on purse money instead of having to bet?

I've never placed a bet and have plenty of money in the bank thanks to a nice stable of stakes horses.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Capital

So, is this thread telling me that I can play the game as a stable owner and not have to bet? In other words, can one survive on purse money instead of having to bet?

Yes, you can survive on purse money rather than having to bet. I usually just put a token bet down on my horses as a good luck measure.

However, if you want to dig into a race, you can find betting opportunities and I've scored on some nice exotics, but I usually want to keep things moving along faster than it would be by betting more often.

[path12]

You can also choose to get a small monthly income depending on how much money you start yourself with.

I might play as a small stable one of these days, but it's more fun to have a full roster of 40 and try to score some nice horses at auction.

[PurdueBrad]

You guys are getting me really close to putting in an order for this (don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing!).

[path12]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

You guys are getting me really close to putting in an order for this (don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing!).

Did you try the demo? I could really understand someone hating this because of the graphics/interface.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by path12

Did you try the demo? I could really understand someone hating this because of the graphics/interface.

I have not tried the download, might this weekend when I have a bit more time.

[path12]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I have not tried the download, might this weekend when I have a bit more time.

I'd recommend that. I think it gives you through the March 2YO in training auction. If you have any questions with it hit me up.

[st.cronin]

The interface is brutally bad.

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The interface is brutally bad.

Yep. Reminds me of Dominions in some ways -- a solid engine underneath and a user interface that does everything to make things harder than they need to be.

[st.cronin]

I still have not figured out how to enter one of my horses in a race.

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I still have not figured out how to enter one of my horses in a race.

First, there needs to be a condition book posted. I believe that in the demo that doesn't happen until around Jan 10th or 11th (it'll be a Monday in any case which is the day that you can assign your horses to races).

Once you get to that date, go into your stable from the owners screen. You'll see your horses in the top box, and the condition book with races in the bottom box. Click on a horse in the top box, scroll down to the race you want in the bottom box and double click it. Now that race should show up to the right of your horse in the top box.

I know that sounds way more complicated than it really is in practice. I assume you're either trying to assign to a race on a day other than Monday, or that you haven't gone far enough to get the condition book to post.

[path12]

I was playing this again last night and thinking about cronin's comment.

It struck me that this is one of those games where a partnership with one of the more experienced sim publishers could really be a wonderful thing. I believe this engine is really solid and well designed and having a partner with expertise in user interfaces and presenting data/history to players could make this a game that could reach a much wider audience than they'll ever get as is.

Ah, wishful thinking.........

[st.cronin]

Path, to me the game feels like its been designed by somebody who has never used a computer before. I'm intrigued enough to keep working with the demo, though, since the meat of the game is honestly pretty good, and may end up purchasing it.

[QuikSand]

Okay, I'm in.

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Path, to me the game feels like its been designed by somebody who has never used a computer before. I'm intrigued enough to keep working with the demo, though, since the meat of the game is honestly pretty good, and may end up purchasing it.

I agree, I don't know how experienced these guys are as programmers, but they have put together a very good game design. All they need is someone who can make that design more accessible and intuitive IMO.

[path12]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Okay, I'm in.

Did the demo finally hook you?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by path12

Did the demo finally hook you?

No, you guys did.

[path12]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

No, you guys did.

Sounds like me with OOTP every other year.

[PurdueBrad]

Downloaded the demo...hopefully can give my impressions later tonight or tomorrow.

[billethius]

Originally Posted by path12

I was playing this again last night and thinking about cronin's comment.

It struck me that this is one of those games where a partnership with one of the more experienced sim publishers could really be a wonderful thing. I believe this engine is really solid and well designed and having a partner with expertise in user interfaces and presenting data/history to players could make this a game that could reach a much wider audience than they'll ever get as is.

Ah, wishful thinking.........

I've played it enough at this point and enjoy the underlying game enough that the interface no longer bothers me at all. But I really would love to see more in depth stat/history tracking (even full access to PPs for any horse I want to look at). It'd be great to be looking at a horse in the auction and to be able to do a search on how the sire crosses with the dam-sire. I'd also love to be able to see if I'm purchasing bloodlines that tend to be great as 2yos and then fade or if they're the type that take a few years to develop - and this is definitely something that's affected by bloodlines in the game. Smoke Glacken has been one of the leading 2yo sires in my game every year.

I think the problem - as far as partnering up with someone with UI experience goes - is that horse racing is a very niche sport. And then you take that group and further slim it down to people who like horse racing and enjoy simulation games. It's just not a big enough market to pay someone to do a lot of UI work.

However, it wouldn't hurt for people to go over to their message board and request stat/history tracking as a feature for the next version.

[path12]

Originally Posted by billethius

I've played it enough at this point and enjoy the underlying game enough that the interface no longer bothers me at all. But I really would love to see more in depth stat/history tracking (even full access to PPs for any horse I want to look at). It'd be great to be looking at a horse in the auction and to be able to do a search on how the sire crosses with the dam-sire. I'd also love to be able to see if I'm purchasing bloodlines that tend to be great as 2yos and then fade or if they're the type that take a few years to develop - and this is definitely something that's affected by bloodlines in the game. Smoke Glacken has been one of the leading 2yo sires in my game every year.

I think the problem - as far as partnering up with someone with UI experience goes - is that horse racing is a very niche sport. And then you take that group and further slim it down to people who like horse racing and enjoy simulation games. It's just not a big enough market to pay someone to do a lot of UI work.

However, it wouldn't hurt for people to go over to their message board and request stat/history tracking as a feature for the next version.

If you play almost any game enough you are getting enough enjoyment to overlook the interface -- it mostly doesn't bother me that much either at this point except when I forget to switch tracks to see my promising 2yo run his first race in Florida for example -- or especially during auctions.

I absolutely agree about stat/history tracking and your suggestions there, I believe I mentioned that on their forum also. Even just carrying stats over year to year especially on sire info -- it's just odd to have that reset every January.

I would disagree on your point about the potential audience though. Horse Racing is not the biggest sport in the world, but there is a substantial fan base both in America and Europe. But the main thing is that I believe that a text sim fan is a text sim fan, and a fun and engrossing experience trumps in many ways one's feelings about a sport in real life. Take Football Manager for example -- how many folks have you seen just on this forum that have had little interest in soccer but have gained appreciation for the sport from that game?

If you can put a solid game engine together with a user-friendly interface, the fun factor will override the niche sport factor in my opinion. Now whether that is financially viable from a publisher/developer standpoint is another question, but SI, Grey Dog, Wolverine and Solecismic have proved that there is at least enough of an audience for them to survive so far.

[QuikSand]

Prior to this game, I think I would have said that I was essentially immune to user interface issues. If the underlying game is sound, I can put up with almost any degree of clunky graphics and counterintuitive labeling. This game really, really puts that to a test, though. Wow, it's just horribly designed.

I may post some notes in a dynasty thread. I'm nearly broke at the moment, which makes for pretty uninteresting reading, all told. (yeah, yeah -- and this would be different than the typical dynasty thread how?)

[gkb]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Prior to this game, I think I would have said that I was essentially immune to user interface issues. If the underlying game is sound, I can put up with almost any degree of clunky graphics and counterintuitive labeling. This game really, really puts that to a test, though. Wow, it's just horribly designed.

I may post some notes in a dynasty thread. I'm nearly broke at the moment, which makes for pretty uninteresting reading, all told. (yeah, yeah -- and this would be different than the typical dynasty thread how?)

I've been holding off on buying this, hoping that you would chime in with your thoughts on the game and/or a dynasty. I almost pulled the trigger based on what everyone else had posted, but instead of trying the demo I went back to FOF2007 for awhile.

[path12]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Prior to this game, I think I would have said that I was essentially immune to user interface issues. If the underlying game is sound, I can put up with almost any degree of clunky graphics and counterintuitive labeling. This game really, really puts that to a test, though. Wow, it's just horribly designed.

I may post some notes in a dynasty thread. I'm nearly broke at the moment, which makes for pretty uninteresting reading, all told. (yeah, yeah -- and this would be different than the typical dynasty thread how?)

I started my first game planning to work my way up, but find it's far more entertaining to start with money and horses, so Lucky Bastard Farms got both.

[Yellow5]

Noticed that Starters Orders 3 was released this week. Downloading the demo to take a look.

Anyone ttried Roogames Sport of Kings - National Hunt? http://www.roogames.co.uk/sok.htm

Played Racing Breed this past weekend and enjoyed it but man... it's dog ugly. I'm tempted to buy it but am probably going to hold off a bit.

[weegeebored]

I tried the demo hoping to really like the game but I need a lot more in the graphics/interface department before I plunk down $35. I also had a couple of issues with realism. There was a race that came down to a couple of horses. No problem. The catch is that the rest of the field was beaten by 25+ lengths -- all seven of them. I saw a similar discrepancy in a couple of other races as well.

The hiring of a trainer seems like it's not implemented very well. While I'm not sure of the trainer's effect in the game, it seems like you can spend $2500 and hire the trainer you want at any time. If the trainer has an effect on a horse immediately then essentially you could hire the best trainer for your horse that races that day. I'm not sure if that's how it works but it would be a major flaw IMO.

I also tried the game at trainergame.com, and while the interface is arguably better, the race graphics don't impress me too much. Plus you can tell that it is designed for European gamers even though I demo'd the US version.

I know that this kind of game fits a small niche but if someone took some of the ideas from the Racing Breed and improved on them, plus added a 3D graphics engine (think DirectX 7-ish not DX10) I think that it would sell enough copies to make the programmer happy.

[billethius]

Originally Posted by weegeebored

I tried the demo hoping to really like the game but I need a lot more in the graphics/interface department before I plunk down $35. I also had a couple of issues with realism. There was a race that came down to a couple of horses. No problem. The catch is that the rest of the field was beaten by 25+ lengths -- all seven of them. I saw a similar discrepancy in a couple of other races as well.

I don't see this too often - though my horses tend to be allowance or stakes quality, and the AI tends to do a pretty good job placing nicer horses in the right spots. I have seen it when I've dropped horses to the bottom of the claiming ranks. I'd imagine the problem is one associated with the algorithm for creating horses. There's also an issue where there are certain horses who can run a bit on turf but not at all on dirt. Since there are very few low-level turf claimers (realistic), they're stuck running on dirt where they're absolutely terrible. The solution would either be to give pretty much every horse a lower-bound on their dirt ability - or to force their retirement.

The hiring of a trainer seems like it's not implemented very well. While I'm not sure of the trainer's effect in the game, it seems like you can spend $2500 and hire the trainer you want at any time. If the trainer has an effect on a horse immediately then essentially you could hire the best trainer for your horse that races that day. I'm not sure if that's how it works but it would be a major flaw IMO.

That's not terribly unrealistic. I could take my actual colt, and move him to a different training right now if I wanted to and it wouldn't cost me a dime. I'd probably have to pay a different amount of day-money at the end of the month, but that's something that's reflected in the game as well. And if my horse was in a race today, the new trainer might have a different idea of equipment, race tactics, etc... that basically amounts to what you're talking about. Afterall, in real life, almost every trainer does the exact same things when it comes to the actual training. The differences will be in equipment used and race tactics - though those are usually determined by the individual horses. In my experience with the real thing, the talent of the horse matters far more than the trainer.

I also tried the game at trainergame.com, and while the interface is arguably better, the race graphics don't impress me too much. Plus you can tell that it is designed for European gamers even though I demo'd the US version.

I'll have to take a look at that one when I get home. The problem I have with games that are tailored towards the european sport is that the way the races play out is vastly different and that hurts the immersion factor for me far more than graphics or anything else.

I know that this kind of game fits a small niche but if someone took some of the ideas from the Racing Breed and improved on them, plus added a 3D graphics engine (think DirectX 7-ish not DX10) I think that it would sell enough copies to make the programmer happy.

Decent looking 3D graphics are hard to program. It takes quite a bit of knowledge of the API itself (DirectX or OpenGL - I wouldn't consider either of them to be programmer-friendly APIs), as well as plently of math and similar skills that many programmers just don't have. And the ones who do aren't likely to be interested in horse racing - they'd rather be creating the next great FPS. I think the best chance for a good horse racing game is a text-based game. Rather than the races playing out graphically, they'd play out with minimal graphics and a text call of the race like you'd hear at the track.

[path12]

I don't think 3D is needed either. Hell, FM is dots moving around the field, and that is by far the most immersive sim I've ever played. What you need is a nicer and/or customizable 2D race screen, maybe with a better visual representation of the turns.

[path12]

Dola, one other addition to my suggestion list will be a prompt at end of year/auction dates. I missed both the deadline to name my yearlings and the 2YO in training auction because I was too focused on upcoming races.

[Buccaneer]

I am intrigued, mainly because QS (who has the same taste in thoroughbred sims as I do) is intrigued.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Yellow5

Noticed that Starters Orders 3 was released this week. Downloading the demo to take a look.

This could interest me looking over the feature list, and despite the demo being way too short(7 days), i saw some intriguing possibilities.

[PurdueBrad]

Downloaded, fiddled for one game day, and have actually purchased. Just waiting for my 'key' now.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Downloaded, fiddled for one game day, and have actually purchased. Just waiting for my 'key' now.

Starters Orders 3 or Racing Breed? If the former, id love to hear some impressions when you start playing. Im pretty close to a purchase off the demo, but would love to hear some impressions first.

[Blade6119]

A link to SO3's features:

http://www.startersorders.com/features.htm

This one is particular caught my eye:

Players now have the option of breeding their horses with the top performing retired horses from the previous season. A stud fee is paid to the horses owner.

[billethius]

The problem I've always had with Starters Orders, even the "US Pack", has been seeing a 6f race run in times like 1:16. That's just terribly unrealistic for US racing and completely takes me out of the game.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Starters Orders 3 or Racing Breed? If the former, id love to hear some impressions when you start playing. Im pretty close to a purchase off the demo, but would love to hear some impressions first.

Starters Orders 3. The one difficulty has been that they don't have an automated system for sending out the key so I had to wait until they opened this morning. I probably won't be able to dig into the game until middle of the day today but will post some thoughts pretty shortly thereafter. From the demo, I was fairly impressed compared to most of the stuff we've been stuck with for the last few years (really, in my opinion, since Omni Play). This seems to be the best and closest thing to that with much, much more depth added. But, we'll see.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by billethius

The problem I've always had with Starters Orders, even the "US Pack", has been seeing a 6f race run in times like 1:16. That's just terribly unrealistic for US racing and completely takes me out of the game.

I think this is a conceptual hurdle that not everyone shares, but I agree it's significant. In pure concept, I guess I really don't care is a sim game models the real world perfectly -- as long as the game is understandable and the decisions and rewards are connected properly, I can roll with anything. But I also agree if the game is clerly trying to represent a real-life framework, it's just not "fair" to people who know something about the real-life sport being modeled to feel like they need to discard or override that information to properly play the sim. I think it's tough to do that.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by billethius

The problem I've always had with Starters Orders, even the "US Pack", has been seeing a 6f race run in times like 1:16. That's just terribly unrealistic for US racing and completely takes me out of the game.

Sorry, these were for 5 furlong races, not 6
I'm thinking this has been fixed as what I've been seeing are some track records down in the 1:05/1:06's and the average being around 1:10/1:11. The worst I've seen is a 1:13:12 time for a winning horse.

My 6f races have been in the 1:19-1:25 range.