OT - "Grizzled veteran" quarterbacks

QuikSand · 11-20-2003, 07:59 AM

A long, long time ago (measured in FOFC time, at least) we had an interesting discussion here about the nature of the QB position in the NFL. Looking around and seeing long-time journeymen like Rich Gannon and Vinny Testaverde rise to be among the pemiere signal-callers in the league (as of 2-3 years ago), we got to talking about who might become the next guy to emerge from the ashes of backup duty to become a cagy, sought-after veteran leader.

I thought I'd bring this up again. Not sure what it was that got me thinking about this... maybe the re-emergence of Rick Mirer? (probably not) Maybe the sight of Chris Chandler heaving a last-ditch ball skyward in the waning minutes of an NFL game this week? Maybe the lavish praise being heaped upon Tony Banks for his baskup efforts for Houston? I don't know.

Anyway - how about a guessing game? Who do you think is ready to become a "QB on the rise" from the 30-and-older crowd? (Or at least from the subset of guys who are not currently considered particularly hot properties)

Who do you think might someday pull it all together, among QBs who right now look like they have little or no future?

QuikSand · 11-20-2003, 08:09 AM

Here's a candidate: Trent Dilfer. A couple years ago, he was basically already in this category - a modest washout from TB, reborn in Baltimore and became th archetype DLG quarterback. Now that Hasselbeck is doing well in Seattle, Dilfer is relegated again.

Maybe someday, another team will find that Trent DIlfer does a decent enough job, makes fairly few mistakes, and can actually keep a team in the game. This guy could be in the NFL for years, if he can stay healthy. (Though Chris Chandler shows that this is not even a requisite skill)

Poli · 11-20-2003, 08:26 AM

QS, I agree along those lines, though I'm not sure Dilfer will find another place to get a shot. It would be nice to see it happen, though.

Mirer is an interesting case, huh? I know in the NFL a third string QB sometimes has to play (Hello, Denver!), but it had been the Raider fortune to have both the starter and #2 guy healthy over the years. Mirer had what I and other joke about, a cushy clipboard caddy job.

I'm very happy he's getting a chance, and that Al Davis didn't try to bring in Jeff George, Bobby Hoying, or whoever else to try and shore the position up.

Leonidas · 11-20-2003, 08:33 AM

These usually seem to be guys who were once very promising, didn't quite live up to potential so were booed out of town, then re-emerged somewhere else able to exceed lowered expectations.

I can't say who the very next guy will be, but I can think of a few who maybe a few years down the line could qualify.

Rob Johnson
Tim Couch
Shawn King
Dilfer
Kordell Stewart (yes, him)
Brian Griese

samifan24 · 11-20-2003, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Leonidas
Shawn King

Yeah, he really disappeared there, didn't he?

Maple Leafs · 11-20-2003, 08:36 AM

How about Gus Frerrotte?

Honolulu Blue · 11-20-2003, 10:03 AM

Although he's not 30 yet, I'll put in a vote for Charlie Batch. Yes, it's kind of a joke how well he was rated in FOF Classic and FOF2, but he can play a little and he was run out of Detroit because 1) he had a bad season, and 2) he's not a "West Coast" QB. Give him an offense where he can throw the ball downfield some and I think he would do all right. Keep him in mind anyway.

Bee · 11-20-2003, 10:08 AM

I think Tim Couch could still develop into a solid starter. He'd get my vote. I think Dilfer has the skill, but from my understanding he likes it where he is and has no desire to be anything more than a "mentor" in Seattle at this point.

cthomer5000 · 11-20-2003, 10:18 AM

I also like Charlie Batch. I'm shocked/a bit concerned that he hasn't gotten more of a chance in Pittsburgh given the QB troubles. I don't know whether he's just not getting a chance, or just not looking good.

If Testeverde was released and gets a chance to start somewhere, I still think he's got 1-2 years left in him. He impressed me with his play this year, and I absolutely detest the guy.

Senator · 11-20-2003, 11:09 AM

The Detmer brothers Ty and Koy.

TroyF · 11-20-2003, 11:15 AM

Staying with the over 30 crowd, I think there are three candidates:

1) Kurt Warner - I don't think he's finished. I think he'd flurish in a conventional offense. I think he'll get the chance to prove that next year.

2) Mark Brunell - an bigtime injury risk, but he's the type of guy who could go to a west coast offense with a decent O-line and make something happen.

3) Chris Weinke - I know, you'll laugh at that one. Still, he played better in training camp this year. He never had Stephen Davis to work with when he was the Panthers starting QB. It wouldn't shock me to see him get a chance to prove himself after a starter goes down somewhere.

TroyF

FishFan · 11-20-2003, 03:28 PM

I would throw Trent Green into this crowd. Here's a guy that graduated from college in the early 90s, I think 1991 or 92. He made the Charger in 93 but floated around the league and did not throw a pass until 1997 with Washington. His first NFL pass was the only one he threw in 97 and fell incomplete.

In 1998, all of a sudden, he's named Washington's starter and puts up good numbers (3,441 yards, 23 TDs) with a 81.8 rating. Then, he ends up with St. Louis in 1999 and is their starting QB heading into preseason when he rips up his knee. The overrated Kurt Warner takes over, leads a high powered offense to the Super Bowl and Green is a back up once again. In 2000, he throws 16 touchdowns in five starts and outplays Warner, but does not get the nod when Warner returns from injury. He is then traded to Kansas City in 2001.

His first season in KCY was his worst as a starter, throwing 24 interceptions and posting a 71.1 QB rating. In the "what have you done for me lately" world that is the NFL, he could have been left for dead. But old man Vermeil stuck with him and he has returned with two great seasons (42 TDs, 20 picks with 6,200 yards in the last 26 games).

Being an Indiana alum and watching this guy play in college, it's nice to see him finally enjoy some success in the professional ranks. He's also been a class act, giving back to his college and his community.

Wasabiak · 11-20-2003, 03:51 PM

If Brunell could stay healthy, he would get my vote.

Bee · 11-20-2003, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TroyF
Staying with the over 30 crowd, I think there are three candidates:

1) Kurt Warner - I don't think he's finished. I think he'd flurish in a conventional offense. I think he'll get the chance to prove that next year.

2) Mark Brunell - an bigtime injury risk, but he's the type of guy who could go to a west coast offense with a decent O-line and make something happen.

3) Chris Weinke - I know, you'll laugh at that one. Still, he played better in training camp this year. He never had Stephen Davis to work with when he was the Panthers starting QB. It wouldn't shock me to see him get a chance to prove himself after a starter goes down somewhere.

TroyF

Would Warner or Brunell really fall into this category though? I don't consider either guy a "journeyman" or for that matter a backup even if they aren't starting right now. I think right now they are better than a significant number of starters in the NFL right now.

Huckleberry · 11-20-2003, 03:58 PM

Troy -

I disagree with your 1st nomination but agree with the next two. I just don't see anything from Kurt Warner that shows me he'd flourish in a standard passing attack. And, as you know, I'm never wrong.

Easy Mac · 11-20-2003, 04:01 PM

Todd Bouman
Todd Collins

TroyF · 11-20-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Huckleberry
Troy -

I disagree with your 1st nomination but agree with the next two. I just don't see anything from Kurt Warner that shows me he'd flourish in a standard passing attack. And, as you know, I'm never wrong.

When I went to the Rams/Broncos game last year, I was amazed at how quickly he read the field. He didn't have an exceptional game that day. Martz went to his wacky "lets not bother giving the ball to Marshall Faulk EVER" plan and the Broncos teed off.

What amazed me at the game (and I commented on it on this board) was how quickly he went through his progressions. You could watch his head turn from one side of the field to the other and back again. I think he'd actually be better in a conventional offense that allowed him to use play action more.

It's a known fact around Denver that Shanahan's first choice at QB this off-season was Warner. He went to plan B when the Rams decided to hold onto him.

I'd have loved to have seen what Kurt coudl have done in a more conventional offense. Maybe I'd be offbase. . . but I think he's surprise a lot of people.

And I'm wrong sometimes.

TroyF

HornedFrog Purple · 11-20-2003, 06:04 PM

If Danny Wuerffel could ever get an arm transplant for even an average NFL arm I guess I would throw his name in there.

The others I could think of as "grizzled" and made a comeback of sorts are/were Tommy Maddox and Randall Cunningham.

Vegas Vic · 11-20-2003, 06:56 PM

Troy,

I agree on Weinke. I think he can be a starter in the NFL, although his age is starting to become an issue. He had a very impressive training camp this past season, but the Panthers were sold on Delhomme.

TroyF · 11-20-2003, 07:15 PM

Vic,

It's funny how the Panthers used his age as a positive one year and then a negative the next. He went from mature to old REALLY fast. If they thought that just because he was an older rookie he wouldn't have the standard growing pains, they were sadly mistaken.

TroyF

Craptacular · 11-20-2003, 07:56 PM

Vince Evans.

Leonidas · 11-21-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
Vince Evans.

I heard the Raiders were finally convinced they needed more youth so they called Evans to see if he was available. If not, they say George Blanda will be ready soon after his hip replacement has healed.

cartman · 11-21-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FishFan
I would throw Trent Green into this crowd. His first NFL pass was the only one he threw in 97 and fell incomplete.

In 1998, all of a sudden, he's named Washington's starter and puts up good numbers (3,441 yards, 23 TDs) with a 81.8 rating.

His first season in KCY was his worst as a starter, throwing 24 interceptions and posting a 71.1 QB rating.

So, maybe here's the IRL case where a QB rating was 39.5...

Ryche · 11-21-2003, 02:01 PM

Jon Kitna would get my vote, he really hasn't been getting any respect yet despite the nice job he has been doing in Cincinnati. The Bengals will probably be Carson Palmer's team next year, but wherever Kitna ends up next, he could do very well. Chicago perhaps?

korme · 11-21-2003, 02:14 PM

David Klingler...?

Doh

Buzzbee · 11-21-2003, 02:49 PM

Eric Crouch?

Seriously, I think another QB that you could place in the "Grizzled Veteran" category would be Doug Flutie. Never stellar, but yet dependable.

11-20-2003, 08:26 AM	#3
Poli FOFC Survivor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Wentzville, MO	QS, I agree along those lines, though I'm not sure Dilfer will find another place to get a shot. It would be nice to see it happen, though. Mirer is an interesting case, huh? I know in the NFL a third string QB sometimes has to play (Hello, Denver!), but it had been the Raider fortune to have both the starter and #2 guy healthy over the years. Mirer had what I and other joke about, a cushy clipboard caddy job. I'm very happy he's getting a chance, and that Al Davis didn't try to bring in Jeff George, Bobby Hoying, or whoever else to try and shore the position up. __________________ Cheer for a walk on quarterback! Ardent leads the Vols in the dynasty forum.

11-20-2003, 08:33 AM	#4
Leonidas College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: East Anglia	These usually seem to be guys who were once very promising, didn't quite live up to potential so were booed out of town, then re-emerged somewhere else able to exceed lowered expectations. I can't say who the very next guy will be, but I can think of a few who maybe a few years down the line could qualify. Rob Johnson Tim Couch Shawn King Dilfer Kordell Stewart (yes, him) Brian Griese __________________ Molon labe

11-20-2003, 11:09 AM	#10
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	The Detmer brothers Ty and Koy. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

11-20-2003, 03:58 PM	#15
Huckleberry College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001	Troy - I disagree with your 1st nomination but agree with the next two. I just don't see anything from Kurt Warner that shows me he'd flourish in a standard passing attack. And, as you know, I'm never wrong. __________________ The one thing all your failed relationships have in common is you. The Barking Carnival (Longhorn-centered sports blog) College Football Adjusted Stats and Ratings

11-20-2003, 06:04 PM	#18
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	If Danny Wuerffel could ever get an arm transplant for even an average NFL arm I guess I would throw his name in there. The others I could think of as "grizzled" and made a comeback of sorts are/were Tommy Maddox and Randall Cunningham. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

11-20-2003, 08:09 AM	#2
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	Here's a candidate: Trent Dilfer. A couple years ago, he was basically already in this category - a modest washout from TB, reborn in Baltimore and became th archetype DLG quarterback. Now that Hasselbeck is doing well in Seattle, Dilfer is relegated again. Maybe someday, another team will find that Trent DIlfer does a decent enough job, makes fairly few mistakes, and can actually keep a team in the game. This guy could be in the NFL for years, if he can stay healthy. (Though Chris Chandler shows that this is not even a requisite skill)

11-20-2003, 08:36 AM	#6
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	How about Gus Frerrotte?

11-20-2003, 10:03 AM	#7
Honolulu Blue Dynasty Boy Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Michigan	Although he's not 30 yet, I'll put in a vote for Charlie Batch. Yes, it's kind of a joke how well he was rated in FOF Classic and FOF2, but he can play a little and he was run out of Detroit because 1) he had a bad season, and 2) he's not a "West Coast" QB. Give him an offense where he can throw the ball downfield some and I think he would do all right. Keep him in mind anyway.

11-20-2003, 10:08 AM	#8
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	I think Tim Couch could still develop into a solid starter. He'd get my vote. I think Dilfer has the skill, but from my understanding he likes it where he is and has no desire to be anything more than a "mentor" in Seattle at this point.

11-20-2003, 11:15 AM	#11
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Staying with the over 30 crowd, I think there are three candidates: 1) Kurt Warner - I don't think he's finished. I think he'd flurish in a conventional offense. I think he'll get the chance to prove that next year. 2) Mark Brunell - an bigtime injury risk, but he's the type of guy who could go to a west coast offense with a decent O-line and make something happen. 3) Chris Weinke - I know, you'll laugh at that one. Still, he played better in training camp this year. He never had Stephen Davis to work with when he was the Panthers starting QB. It wouldn't shock me to see him get a chance to prove himself after a starter goes down somewhere. TroyF

11-20-2003, 03:28 PM	#12
FishFan College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA	I would throw Trent Green into this crowd. Here's a guy that graduated from college in the early 90s, I think 1991 or 92. He made the Charger in 93 but floated around the league and did not throw a pass until 1997 with Washington. His first NFL pass was the only one he threw in 97 and fell incomplete. In 1998, all of a sudden, he's named Washington's starter and puts up good numbers (3,441 yards, 23 TDs) with a 81.8 rating. Then, he ends up with St. Louis in 1999 and is their starting QB heading into preseason when he rips up his knee. The overrated Kurt Warner takes over, leads a high powered offense to the Super Bowl and Green is a back up once again. In 2000, he throws 16 touchdowns in five starts and outplays Warner, but does not get the nod when Warner returns from injury. He is then traded to Kansas City in 2001. His first season in KCY was his worst as a starter, throwing 24 interceptions and posting a 71.1 QB rating. In the "what have you done for me lately" world that is the NFL, he could have been left for dead. But old man Vermeil stuck with him and he has returned with two great seasons (42 TDs, 20 picks with 6,200 yards in the last 26 games). Being an Indiana alum and watching this guy play in college, it's nice to see him finally enjoy some success in the professional ranks. He's also been a class act, giving back to his college and his community.

11-20-2003, 03:51 PM	#13
Wasabiak High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Beulah, ND	If Brunell could stay healthy, he would get my vote.

11-20-2003, 04:01 PM	#16
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Todd Bouman Todd Collins

11-20-2003, 06:56 PM	#19
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Troy, I agree on Weinke. I think he can be a starter in the NFL, although his age is starting to become an issue. He had a very impressive training camp this past season, but the Panthers were sold on Delhomme.

11-20-2003, 07:15 PM	#20
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Vic, It's funny how the Panthers used his age as a positive one year and then a negative the next. He went from mature to old REALLY fast. If they thought that just because he was an older rookie he wouldn't have the standard growing pains, they were sadly mistaken. TroyF

11-20-2003, 07:56 PM	#21
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	Vince Evans.

11-21-2003, 02:01 PM	#24
Ryche College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO, USA	Jon Kitna would get my vote, he really hasn't been getting any respect yet despite the nice job he has been doing in Cincinnati. The Bengals will probably be Carson Palmer's team next year, but wherever Kitna ends up next, he could do very well. Chicago perhaps? __________________ Some knots are better left untied.

11-21-2003, 02:14 PM	#25
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	David Klingler...? Doh

11-21-2003, 02:49 PM	#26
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	Eric Crouch? Seriously, I think another QB that you could place in the "Grizzled Veteran" category would be Doug Flutie. Never stellar, but yet dependable. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

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