The WNBA vs. Soccer...Color me surprised...

[digamma]

The WNBA is outdrawing the MLS on ESPN2 so far this summer. I would have thought that given the World Cup, you might have had some spill over to the ESPN2 coverage. Not so much, I guess.

I'm surprised by this. Obviously, they are both small numbers in the grand scheme of things, but at the very least it shows where soccer is starting from in "catching on," at least from an American professional league perspective.

[stevew]

I think the amount of actual lesbians must be higher than originally thought.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by stevew

I think the amount of actual lesbians must be higher than originally thought.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

[molson]

Chick basketball is surprisingly big in random places with good college programs, like Tennessee and Connecticut.

[I. J. Reilly]

Is there a game of the week or anything like that for MLS? If I happened across a game I would probably watch, but I never see it.

[rowech]

MLS sucks.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

Is there a game of the week or anything like that for MLS? If I happened across a game I would probably watch, but I never see it.

Yes and I'm pretty sure it's on Wednesday or Thursday nights. I consider myself a moderate soccer fan in that I watched most of the World Cup and watch Premiership games whenever they're on and I think I've only watch a couple of minutes of MLS action this season.

I've been to two MLS matches in the last five years and both involved Beckham: his MLS debut against DC United and a match against the "local" Revolution.

I don't really watch the MLS because:

1) I'd much rather watch MLB in the summer
2) I've never heard of most MLS players and could only point out a few star players outside of the big names like Donovan, Beckham, Blanco, Juan Pablo Angel and Thierry Henry

I've played as MLS teams in FM and even attended matches of a now-defunct local CT "MLS minor league" team just because I thought it would be interesting. I like soccer, just not the MLS.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And that's despite the WNBA having an LA team playing terribly and the other top two media markets in NY & CHI both being on the wrong side of the playoff bubble at the moment.

[BishopMVP]

ESPN's World Cup blogger Michael Davies, responding to a question about the rising popularity of soccer in the US.

What BP is actually arguing is that soccer still isn't going anywhere in the U.S. And whatever Glenn Beck says, it's just tough to argue against the empirical data -- TV ratings, website traffic, bar tabs. They're all going up during and around soccer games. That seems to indicate that however annoying or casual the fans are, or however annoying they are to each other, they are still watching. Yes, the World Cup more than anything else. But U.S. interest in the English Premier League and Champions League and the ratings and website traffic surrounding those leagues is growing significantly, too. There are even people who watch Major League Soccer. And that may be the biggest miracle of all. And the biggest proof that soccer must be going somewhere here. It's like Daniel Kellison's [former executive producer of 'The Man Show' and 'Jimmy Kimmel Live'] heterosexuality test: Any man can have sex with a model, but only the most heterosexual of men can bring himself to have sex with a truly unattractive woman. The fact that American soccer fans can sit through 90 minutes of MLS is proof of a love of soccer beyond anything the rest of the world can possibly fathom."

[RainMaker]

How were the ratings on ESPN for EPL games?

I did love Simmons idea. One of the teams over there should sign a few of our best players (Donovan, Dempsey, Bradley), then ESPN should broadcast every one of their games. Sort of make them "America's Team".

[Big Fo]

I've read that the weeknight MLS games draw a little better than the EPL, those 7:30 AM Eastern Time kickoffs (when ESPN/ESPN2 had games last season) aren't that great for ratings and while more people are able to watch 10 AM and 12:30 PM games on FSC it's not in as many homes as ESPN/ESPN2.

[JeeberDMack]

This World Cup I probably watched more soccer than ever before. However, I have ZERO desire to watch MLS, or EPL, or any other league...

[GoldenEagle]

ESPN needs to choose better matches to showcase. At this point, it only needs to be the Galaxy or the Red Bulls in that Thursday night. Sports fans tune into the World Cup because it is has big starts and is easier to understand and follow. MLS needs to sign bigger names. I would bet most casual sports fans would tune into a Henry v Ronaldinho match-up on a Thursday night.

By the way, I love MLS and try to support it as much as I can. The quality of play is steadily improving. But I hate watching games on FSC. They produce a crap product and get crap ratings as a result.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I would bet most casual sports fans would tune into a Henry v Ronaldinho match-up on a Thursday night.

Umm ... most casual sports fans have no idea who either guy is.

Did you mean casual soccer fans maybe?

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

well, 2 things:

1. it doesn't seem well run. their promotion stinks. their visibility stinks. signing washed up euro's is a novelty that doesn't work (see: nasl) their core product isn't strong enough, which leads to my second point-

2. there's too many teams. it's the blight of modern sports. every 'big market' doesn't need a team. particularly in this case when the league is still struggling to gain momentum. there's simply not enough talent to go around.

i think there is a bright future for soccer in this country. as the population grows (particularly the latin population) youth participation and fan interest will grow as well. i just don't know if the mls is it.

[EagleFan]

That's just sad. While watching MLS is nothing close to WC I would still watch that over WNBA any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Hell, would rather have a root canal than watch that WNBA crap. Can't that just die already or is the NBA still trying to prop it up like it's an actual league?

[Cringer]

Most soccer fans in this country pay more attention to Euro leagues. This board and the soccer thread is the perfect example. I find it funny that people will rip MLS, say this needs to be done, that needs to be done.....with no support it won't do anything though. I enjoy the soccer though, it's homegrown and it's the best we (USA) have. Is it equal to the EPL? No, but the EPL is on at pain in the ass times usually and I will never go to their games (with the exception of going to cheer on the MLS All-Stars Wednesday against ManU).

Also, MLS will get better when our youth system improves. Youth soccer is too much about winning now, starting a 6 years old. It's pathetic and hurts proper training of players in their early development years (6-12).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Youth soccer is too much about winning now, starting a 6 years old. It's pathetic and hurts proper training of players in their early development years (6-12).

If winning doesn't matter, maybe it ought to be called "practice". Or training camp. Or a workshop.

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Also, MLS will get better when our youth system improves.

No, it won't. I am a huge soccer fan and there's simply no way the MLS is going to be watchable in my lifetime (I'm 36). That's harsh, it is watchable if you're at the game, but on TV, it's just brutal.

This guy did the research, so I'll just piggyback his links:
Average Salary for EPL, NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, MLS, WNBA, AFL etc... - Business and Media - Soccer forum - BigSoccer

The money is not there and doesn't look to be there, again, in my lifetime. You are going to have a real hard time asking someone to take $1.1M less every year in the name of patriotism. That's if you can get them to play soccer professionally in the first place. If they've got that level of athleticism, the NFL and MLB are gonna come calling.

I'm not sure where this pipe dream of the MLS just needing one or two breaks before it gets big got started, but it's folly. It needs billions of dollars. Or else, anyone who can play in Europe is going to bolt at the first chance.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If winning doesn't matter, maybe it ought to be called "practice". Or training camp. Or a workshop.

Actually, the rec leagues we have here (from our experiences) were more about the kids running around in a pack for 20 minutes then getting snacks. Well, at least at 6. The next step up still didn't officially keep score.

Coaching was really hit or miss. My son had a coach who seemed to have played at some point and had a pretty good approach at trying to teach skills. My daughter had a coach who was more into football; I doubt she ever played. Practices (when we had them) didn't accomplish much (heck, half of it seemed to be yelling at her son, even though he was the only player who had much of a clue). But, I'll give her some credit for signing up to be the coach, as pretty much all of them were volunteer parents. And that's part of the problem too. If you have parent-coaches who really don't know the game, how do you teach the kids correctly?

Now, we do have soccer camps (kids went to one at an indoor facility). Throwing a kid w/o serious interest in the sport already into a training setting though doesn't always work.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... most casual sports fans have no idea who either guy is.

Did you mean casual soccer fans maybe?

I've at least heard of Ronaldinho. Couldn't pick him out of a lineup though.

If I'm looking for something sports-related to watch on a Thursday night (these days, that seems to be a significant "if"), I'm defaulting to MLB. If not a game, then Baseball Tonight. Or SportsCenter. Or poker.

I apologize for not hopping on the soccer ship, but that's just how it is.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Actually, the rec leagues we have here (from our experiences) were more about the kids running around in a pack for 20 minutes then getting snacks. Well, at least at 6. The next step up still didn't officially keep score.

Which is okay, except it ought to be called "recess" or "play time" instead of a "league".

If you have parent-coaches who really don't know the game, how do you teach the kids correctly?

On a more congenial note, I think you raise a pretty decent point there.

Throwing a kid w/o serious interest in the sport already into a training setting though doesn't always work.

There's a big part of the problem I've got with some of the groups I've seen. If they aren't interested, why do so many parents seem hell-bent on shoving them out there in the first place? It's a waste of time, energy, and money that could be better spent in so many other ways, it just boggles my mind.

[jeff061]

Yeah, I remember when I lived in CT the WNBA seemed to be pretty legit. When I moved to MA it wasn't so much. I chalked it up to waning popularity in general, but maybe it was my geographic location.

[miked]

It's like choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Also, MLS will get better when our youth system improves. Youth soccer is too much about winning now, starting a 6 years old. It's pathetic and hurts proper training of players in their early development years (6-12).

Ignorant non-parent here...

But how is this different from any other sport?

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Yeah, I remember when I lived in CT the WNBA seemed to be pretty legit. When I moved to MA it wasn't so much. I chalked it up to waning popularity in general, but maybe it was my geographic location.

Connecticut and Tennessee love their women's basketball but that's almost entirely because UConn and Tennessee have such incredible programs. I can definitely see how the WNBA struggles in less women's basketball enthusiastic markets.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Connecticut and Tennessee love their women's basketball but that's almost entirely because UConn and Tennessee have such incredible programs. I can definitely see how the WNBA struggles in less women's basketball enthusiastic markets.

I'm pretty confident that I wouldn't follow the WNBA at all if not for following the Lady Vols since I was a kid. Any doubt about that was erased when I realized how relatively little I cared even about the very good season Atlanta is having since there are no UT alums on the roster, compounded by them having two UGA alums.

I'll follow it in online, at least to know if they've won or lost, but I'm neither interested in attending nor watching if there's no players I've got an attachment to. And that's a noticeable decrease even over their miserable expansion year.

[rowech]

Here's why the US will never be good at soccer -- football. Thousands of kids play soccer from say 5-12 or so because mom and dad don't want them playing football. Once junior high age rolls around (if not before) kids switch to football -- especially the great athletes. There's more scholarships to be had, more money to be made, and more prestige to be won.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which is okay, except it ought to be called "recess" or "play time" instead of a "league".

Oh, absolutely. There was little point in it other than getting the kids out of the house and running around (though these days that's almost an accomplishment in and of itself). Did nothing to foster any sense of competition though. T-ball was the same way. The fact that there was no point actually seemed to turn my son off of these activities.

I was surprised that he later took more of an interest when we started playing wiffle-ball on our street. He wanted to do better because we were keeping score.

Anyway, back to the thread.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If winning doesn't matter, maybe it ought to be called "practice". Or training camp. Or a workshop.

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Ignorant non-parent here...

But how is this different from any other sport?

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Actually, the rec leagues we have here (from our experiences) were more about the kids running around in a pack for 20 minutes then getting snacks. Well, at least at 6. The next step up still didn't officially keep score.

Coaching was really hit or miss. My son had a coach who seemed to have played at some point and had a pretty good approach at trying to teach skills. My daughter had a coach who was more into football; I doubt she ever played. Practices (when we had them) didn't accomplish much (heck, half of it seemed to be yelling at her son, even though he was the only player who had much of a clue). But, I'll give her some credit for signing up to be the coach, as pretty much all of them were volunteer parents. And that's part of the problem too. If you have parent-coaches who really don't know the game, how do you teach the kids correctly?

Now, we do have soccer camps (kids went to one at an indoor facility). Throwing a kid w/o serious interest in the sport already into a training setting though doesn't always work.

Let me re-phrase it some I guess, though I stand by it. Winning should not be the MAIN point/goal for the youth soccer coach. Now let me go into detail. A youth soccer coach should make their top two priorities these: Teach the game (starting with techniques at the younger ages, move more towards tactics as they get older when they are able to mentally handle it); the second being simple, make it fun (so they enjoy the sport and want to continue doing it).

1. Teaching the game. How can a kid improve if not taught properly? cuervo hits on this, if a parent who has no idea what they are doing is the coach then this obviously is not going to be done very well for kids on that team. This is where the club/association needs to step in. They need to make sure they provide guidance to these types of coaches. Either have people who personally go out and help these coaches, give them tips, ideas for practice games or you have one main training session for coaches. It is required from our state association, and most, that any who coaches over a year must take at least a coaching module. When coaches take these they will be taught how to handle kids for certain age groups. What those kids are able to learn, what they should be taught, how a coach should present information to these kids. Teaching a 6 year old is different then a 9 year old, so they have different modules for different age groups. These are great for a coach who doesn't know anything to begin with.

2. Fun. What does a kid care about more? Having fun or winning? Yes winning is the having fun for many kids but most kids move on from losses pretty quickly (age 4-10 anyways). If a kid is having fun though, at practice and games then they want to keep playing. If a kid keeps playing over the years then they will obviously start to improve, even without top level coaching. How many of Brazil's top players had high level youth coaching? Not many, they just played, without coaches, without a lot of what our kids have. They played because they had fun doing it and developed a love for the sport early in life.

3. Now about the coach who's main focus is on winning and how that can go against numbers 1 and 2. If I am coaching to win I could do a few things that take the fun out of it and prevent kids from learning the game. First, always giving instructions to players. Go here, kick the ball there, pass to Jimmy, shoot now, move up, move back. That kind of thing can actually prevent a kid from learning the game, as they will always look to the coach for their instructions even in the middle of a game. Second, benching the weaker kids as much as they can get away with. Some kids may develop slower/faster then others. The superstar player at 7 yrs old is rarely the superstar player at 17 yrs old. Giving every kid a shot keeps them interested and learning. Let kids leave the sport when they choose, not when they are forced out because the coach who wants to only win won't play him/her so the kid feels there is no point trying any more.

I know cuervo hit on what 6 yr old soccer looks like. It will always look like that at that age. That is part of learning the game and it's not a bad thing. All the kids want the ball because that is the point of the game, get the ball and score. When you start teaching those same kids to stand in front of the goal as a "defender" then they stop learning the game. As they get older they will learn the advantages of spreading out, hopefully with the help of their coach in the right way.

Coaches and parents who are all about winning also result in pushing the players too hard which can result in a team like a team down here in south Texas, from San Antonio area I believe. U11 girls, roster of 14 players. 8 of them have knee braces already. Of those 14 girls I would be willing to bet 3 or 4 are still playing the game when they are high school seniors.

To end this I will say this. I am 100% confident that if you gave me a group of 6 (or even 8) yr olds new to the sport and a coach focused more on winning every game a group of kids the same age, that yes that first year his team may win more games. After that though my group of kids will not only have a better return rate but within two years they are most likely beating the crap out of his team. I didn't focus on winning, but after some time my team will indeed be the team with the most wins. This is the key. I want my team to succeed, of course I want the kids to win. Knowing the proper way to play the game will lead to that though. And come 16-18, more of my kids will still be playing soccer while his kids have mostly moved on. Which way was better for professional soccer in this country?

Another problem with youth soccer are where the coaches are in age groups. The best coaches like to coach teens, mainly boys 14 and older, that next level the younger boys, the third tier maybe older girls. U10 and younger falls to parents a lot of time. An effort to improve coaching by clubs/associations needs to be made for younger ages by providing proper training to even volunteer parent coaches.

Last thing, this is not simply just my personal philosophy on youth soccer. I am a big believer in what US Youth Soccer is trying to get across in this country, along with US Soccer. The US system for youth development is based on the Dutch and German national systems. I have been coaching this way for a few years now, with results I am happy about. I will now get a big test of this as a take a fairly raw group of U12/U11 girls into travel and try to develop them and get them caught up with the rest of their competition. I am also making a big push of spreading this through our youth soccer club which I have been President of since December and has had a sever lack of quality coaching in part due to a lack of quality leadership on the board.

Originally Posted by JHandley

No, it won't. I am a huge soccer fan and there's simply no way the MLS is going to be watchable in my lifetime (I'm 36). That's harsh, it is watchable if you're at the game, but on TV, it's just brutal.

This guy did the research, so I'll just piggyback his links:
Average Salary for EPL, NBA, MLB, NFL, NHL, MLS, WNBA, AFL etc... - Business and Media - Soccer forum - BigSoccer

The money is not there and doesn't look to be there, again, in my lifetime. You are going to have a real hard time asking someone to take $1.1M less every year in the name of patriotism. That's if you can get them to play soccer professionally in the first place. If they've got that level of athleticism, the NFL and MLB are gonna come calling.

I'm not sure where this pipe dream of the MLS just needing one or two breaks before it gets big got started, but it's folly. It needs billions of dollars. Or else, anyone who can play in Europe is going to bolt at the first chance.

I will agree, money is a big part of it. Proper youth development will improve the talent of this country though. Yes the best may leave for the big bucks, but that next level which we will keep in MLS will be better then that level we are keeping now.

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Individual teams are starting to get the hang of this. DCUnited has developed two players on this years senior roster through their youth academy. Bill Hamid is a quality young goalie who has the potential to develop into a National team player. Andy Najar is easily the best young player in the league by a very wide margin.

Once teams are able to develop at least solid starters internally it will make a difference. Both Hamid and Najar are kids DCU snatched out of local high schools. That is the future of MLS if it has one.

The league is looking at it's 2nd best live attendance in its history (without the gimmicky doubleheaders and such artificially boosting things). The quality of play has spiked in the last 3 years. It looks like Garber and the league office properly understand the MLS role currently as a feeder league and are working hard to help teams in finding quality young talent and procuring transfer fees to help build up team values. Enough cities are now seeing MLS as a viable alternative to the ridiculously overpriced major sports and are actually fighting for a way in. Next year sees Portland and Vancouver join and 2012 adds Montreal and likely whichever Florida city wins between Miami, Tampa and Orlando. That's a 20 team league and is expected to be the cutoff point for the near future.

Agreed. The Dynamo as well are making big strides in this area and doing all they can.

[tarcone]

I wonder why the MLS avoids St Louis. This city is a hot bed for soccer and always has been.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I wonder why the MLS avoids St Louis. This city is a hot bed for soccer and always has been.

Apparently there have been problems finding potential owner(s) with sufficient financial backing. It's mentioned in this Wiki about their lower division team but I saw a few other references that said similar (that weren't just quoting Wiki) so this ought to be close enough to right.
AC St. Louis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

and likely whichever Florida city wins between Miami, Tampa and Orlando

super. i'm watching the rays game right now and there's at least 60 people there.

[Big Fo]

I would like to have an MLS team in the Southeast (I bet Atlanta gets a chance before they try Florida again) but I can't objectively say that it'd be the right call. There are probably cities that would support a team better elsewhere.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Apparently there have been problems finding potential owner(s) with sufficient financial backing. It's mentioned in this Wiki about their lower division team but I saw a few other references that said similar (that weren't just quoting Wiki) so this ought to be close enough to right.
AC St. Louis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The AC St. Louis ownership group has had a lot of financial problems. They also owner the St. Louis Athletica of the WPS. My daughter and I liked them. Several games into the current WPS season the ownership disbanded the team scattering the players all over the rest of the league. It's a shame, but women's soccer is going to do even worse then the WNBA I guess, so it's not a total surprise.

[molson]

The fact that MLS is drawing 36k/game in Seattle and 16k/game throughout the league is pretty amazing to me. I understand the quality of play is mocked but there seems to be a ton of MLS fans in this country. The players aren't going to be averaging $90k salaries for long. And there's a ton of football players, and only so many premiere league team.

MLS isn't going to surpass the the premiere league anytime soon, but to argue that will never be "watchable" seems a little short-sighted considering the growing popularity and interest.

[stevew]

i know that some people love the WNBA, but I wanted to break my TV every time that ESPN would flash WNBA layup drill highlights.

[TroyF]

Forget all of the other points in this thread, I think the biggest things soccer is missing over here is a combination plate of:

1) Not many Americans have a specific team they cheer for. I cheer for every Colorado sports team imaginable, but I couldn't name 3 players off the Rapids roster.

2) There is no team to HATE.

I know, seems minor, but think about the teams most of us cheer against. Yankees/Red Sox/Lakers/Celtics/Cowboys/Patriots/Red Wings/Flyers/Notre Dame/ etc.

Ok, well, who do I cheer against in the MLS. I don't even know who won the league last year, much less who to hate. As an Arsenal fan, I hate ManU and Chelsea. (I still have a tough time hating Tottenheim, which shows how pathetic of a soccer fan I really am)

I watch "players" in the MLS. I watch and cheer for teams in Europe. The MLS needs to find some heroes and some villains stat.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i had a pretty long discussion about it the other day with someone and for every 'they should do this' point there was a valid counterpoint.

my thought was that they should cut the league in half, ditch the salary cap and have a red sox/yankees type situation with the galaxy/red bulls.

but then, would a galaxy/red bulls team with guys like kaka, berbatov or ronaldhino excite amercian fans? idk.

my other thought was that they should move toward a relationship with the mexican league to hold some sort of end of year north american world series. but there's already a n. american club championship that barely gets a mention on sportscenter, so what the hell do i know.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Forget all of the other points in this thread, I think the biggest things soccer is missing over here is a combination plate of:

1) Not many Americans have a specific team they cheer for. I cheer for every Colorado sports team imaginable, but I couldn't name 3 players off the Rapids roster.

2) There is no team to HATE.

I know, seems minor, but think about the teams most of us cheer against. Yankees/Red Sox/Lakers/Celtics/Cowboys/Patriots/Red Wings/Flyers/Notre Dame/ etc.

Ok, well, who do I cheer against in the MLS. I don't even know who won the league last year, much less who to hate. As an Arsenal fan, I hate ManU and Chelsea. (I still have a tough time hating Tottenheim, which shows how pathetic of a soccer fan I really am)

I watch "players" in the MLS. I watch and cheer for teams in Europe. The MLS needs to find some heroes and some villains stat.

Uh, wuh, say wha? Noooooooooooooooooo! No team to hate? I have a couple MLS teams to hate:

1. Galaxy - pretty easy to hate that team for me, even if I am now trying my best to not dislike Donovan anymore and Beckham isn't really there any longer.
2. Chicago - I hate all Chicago teams, so that's a personal thing.

Very much dislike, could blossom into hate:

1. Seattle - Like the name, kits, location. Don't like players and the team's snooty new fans. I hope they fall into a 5 year streak with sub-.500 record and we will see how many are still around then.
2. Chivas USA - No real reason, just don't like them.
3. Dallas - As a Dynamo fan I feel I have to at least dislike them. At least they are drawing more then 12 people to their games this year though, I wouldn't want to see them go away.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Youth soccer is too much about winning now, starting a 6 years old. It's pathetic and hurts proper training of players in their early development years (6-12).

Uh...my youngest has played U6 for 2 years and will be moving up to U8 this fall, and they don't have goalies or keep score (the parents keep score, informally).

Of course, by the time they care about winning soccer games, I'll have already convinced her to give that shit up for softball and basketball.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

my thought was that they should cut the league in half, ditch the salary cap and have a red sox/yankees type situation with the galaxy/red bulls.

.

I'd be afraid this would lead to another NASL.

[DaddyTorgo]

I should probably go and get my coaching licenses and start actually coaching.