Creationism v. Volcanoes!

[Jesse_Ewiak]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/na...rtner=homepage

Short Version: A snuff movie like Passion of the Christ is great, but educational films are bad because the kiddies might question Preacher John.

A New Screen Test for Imax: It's the Bible vs. the Volcano
By CORNELIA DEAN

Published: March 19, 2005


he fight over evolution has reached the big, big screen.

Several Imax theaters, including some in science museums, are refusing to show movies that mention the subject - or the Big Bang or the geology of the earth - fearing protests from people who object to films that contradict biblical descriptions of the origin of Earth and its creatures.

The number of theaters rejecting such films is small, people in the industry say - perhaps a dozen or fewer, most in the South. But because only a few dozen Imax theaters routinely show science documentaries, the decisions of a few can have a big impact on a film's bottom line - or a producer's decision to make a documentary in the first place.

People who follow trends at commercial and institutional Imax theaters say that in recent years, religious controversy has adversely affected the distribution of a number of films, including "Cosmic Voyage," which depicts the universe in dimensions running from the scale of subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies; "Galápagos," about the islands where Darwin theorized about evolution; and "Volcanoes of the Deep Sea," an underwater epic about the bizarre creatures that flourish in the hot, sulfurous emanations from vents in the ocean floor.

"Volcanoes," released in 2003 and sponsored in part by the National Science Foundation and Rutgers University, has been turned down at about a dozen science centers, mostly in the South, said Dr. Richard Lutz, the Rutgers oceanographer who was chief scientist for the film. He said theater officials rejected the film because of its brief references to evolution, in particular to the possibility that life on Earth originated at the undersea vents.

Carol Murray, director of marketing for the Fort Worth Museum of Science and History, said the museum decided not to offer the movie after showing it to a sample audience, a practice often followed by managers of Imax theaters. Ms. Murray said 137 people participated in the survey, and while some thought it was well done, "some people said it was blasphemous."

In their written comments, she explained, they made statements like "I really hate it when the theory of evolution is presented as fact," or "I don't agree with their presentation of human existence."

On other criteria, like narration and music, the film did not score as well as other films, Ms. Murray said, and over all, it did not receive high marks, so she recommended that the museum pass.

"If it's not going to draw a crowd and it is going to create controversy," she said, "from a marketing standpoint I cannot make a recommendation" to show it.

In interviews, officials at other Imax theaters said they had similarly decided against the film for fear of offending some audiences.

"We have definitely a lot more creation public than evolution public," said Lisa Buzzelli, who directs the Charleston Imax Theater in South Carolina, a commercial theater next to the Charleston Aquarium. Her theater had not ruled out ever showing "Volcanoes," Ms. Buzzelli said, "but being in the Bible Belt, the movie does have a lot to do with evolution, and we weigh that carefully."

Pietro Serapiglia, who handles distribution for the producer Stephen Low of Montreal, whose company made the film, said officials at other theaters told him they could not book the movie "for religious reasons," because it had "evolutionary overtones" or "would not go well with the Christian community" or because "the evolution stuff is a problem."

Hyman Field, who as a science foundation official had a role in the financing of "Volcanoes," said he understood that theaters must be responsive to their audiences. But Dr. Field he said he was "furious" that a science museum would decide not to show a scientifically accurate documentary like "Volcanoes" because it mentioned evolution.

"It's very alarming," he said, "all of this pressure being put on a lot of the public institutions by the fundamentalists."

People who follow the issue say it is more likely to arise at science centers and other public institutions than at commercial theaters. The filmmaker James Cameron, who was a producer on "Volcanoes," said the commercial film he made on the same topic, "Aliens of the Deep," had not encountered opposition, except during post-production, when "it was requested from some theaters that we change a line of dialogue" relating to sun worship by ancient Egyptians. The line remained, he said.


Mr. Cameron said he was "surprised and somewhat offended" that people were sensitive to the references to evolution in "Volcanoes."

"It seems to be a new phenomenon," he said, "obviously symptomatic of our shift away from empiricism in science to faith-based science."

Some in the industry say they fear that documentary filmmakers will steer clear of science topics likely to offend religious fundamentalists.

Large-format science documentaries "are generally not big moneymakers," said Joe DeAmicis, vice president for marketing at the California Science Center in Los Angeles and formerly the director of its Imax theater. "It's going to be hard for our filmmakers to continue to make unfettered documentaries when they know going in that 10 percent of the market" will reject them.

Others who follow the issue say many institutions are not able to resist such pressure.

"They have to be extremely careful as to how they present anything relating to evolution," said Bayley Silleck, who wrote and directed "Cosmic Voyage." Mr. Silleck said he confronted religious objections to that film and predicted he would face them again with a project he is working on now, about dinosaurs.

Of course, a number of factors affect a theater manager's decision about a movie. Mr. Silleck said an Imax documentary about oil fires in Kuwait "never reached its distribution potential" because it had shots of the first Persian Gulf war. "The theaters decided their patrons would be upset at seeing the bodies," he said.

"We all have to make films for an audience that is a family audience," he went on, "when you are talking about Imax, because they are in science centers and museums."

He added, however, "there are a number of us who are concerned that there is a kind of tacit overcaution, overprotectedness of the audience on the part of theater operators."

In any event, censoring films like "Volcanoes" is not an option, said Dr. Field, who said Mr. Low, the film's producer, got in touch with him when the evolution issue arose to ask whether the film should be altered.

"I said absolutely not," recalled Dr. Field, who retired from the National Science Foundation last year.

Mr. Low said that arguments over religion and science disturbed him because of his own religious faith. In his view, he said, science is "a celebration of what nature or God has done. So for me, there's no conflict."

Dr. Lutz, the Rutgers oceanographer, recalled a showing of "Volcanoes" he and Mr. Low attended at the New England Aquarium. When the movie ended, a little girl stood in the audience to challenge Mr. Low on the film's suggestion that Earth might have formed billions of years ago in the explosion of a star. "I thought God created the Earth," she said.

He replied, "Maybe that's how God did it."

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/na...rtner=homepage

Short Version: A snuff movie like Passion of the Christ is great, but educational films are bad because the kiddies might question Preacher John.

Lol, POTC, a snuff movie.....thats pretty funny.

[Greyroofoo]

I just love how fundies will love a movie with a whole lot of violence like PotC, however show a little nudity and they go all nuts

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I just love how fundies will love a movie with a whole lot of violence like PotC, however show a little nudity and they go all nuts

Yep, because the only reason any "fundie" was watching was for the violence.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/na...rtner=homepage

Short Version: A snuff movie like Passion of the Christ is great, but educational films are bad because the kiddies might question Preacher John.

This is the kind of thing that scares me to death about the future of this country.

[Dutch]

A small number of theaters (A DOZEN or FEWER!) are not showing scientific theory because the fear of protests? That's pretty weak in itself.

But now the rest of the Christian population must endure the snide remarks from atheists who read this article?

Thanks New York Times! You guys are the greatest.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

You are aware a dozen is probably a healthy percentage of _total_ IMAX theaters in the South, right? I mean, there are only 240 theatres of this kind on the planet, so 12 is nice number of them.

Also, we wouldn't have snide remarks if idiots wouldn't try on taking us to the days when you got burned at the stake for speaking against God.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

You are aware a dozen is probably a healthy percentage of _total_ IMAX theaters in the South, right? I mean, there are only 240 theatres of this kind on the planet, so 12 is nice number of them.

Also, we wouldn't have snide remarks if idiots wouldn't try on taking us to the days when you got burned at the stake for speaking against God.

What did god ever do to you? You seem to really hate god a lot. You might want to work the issues out some time.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by stevew

What did god ever do to you? You seem to really hate god a lot. You might want to work the issues out some time.

Brilliant as always.

It should be noted that if this is pre-emptive then the issue is with the theatre that withdraws them - however, the fact that they fear reprisal from the idiots is amazing. I'm fairly convinced that there are idiots who refuse to acknowledge science down in those depths, but I don't see any cited here other than an anonymus sample.

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Nah, I don't hate God. Just people who try to use him to take us back to 1654.

[Schmidty]

He's God. You can't use him, you can only think you're using him. It's like a jedi mind-trick you use on yourself. When everything's said and done, He'll have his way.

[Mac Howard]

If it's not going to draw a crowd and it is going to create controversy,

I suspect it's the first of those that provides the motivation and the second the justification

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Jesse_Ewiak

You are aware a dozen is probably a healthy percentage of _total_ IMAX theaters in the South, right? I mean, there are only 240 theatres of this kind on the planet, so 12 is nice number of them.

Also, we wouldn't have snide remarks if idiots wouldn't try on taking us to the days when you got burned at the stake for speaking against God.

And you are condemning Christianity for something that simply hasn't happened in centuries??? Yet, extreme fundamentalism in the Middle East is getting a free ride by those who might protest. Go figure.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And you are condemning Christianity for something that simply hasn't happened in centuries??? Yet, extreme fundamentalism in the Middle East is getting a free ride by those who might protest. Go figure.

Who's condemning Christianity? The condemnation (from where I'm standing) is of fundamentalism. I have an issue with fundamentalism regardless of the religion - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

He may have exaggerated to make a point, but the basic idea that empirical science is being denied due to fundamentalist religious beliefs is a scary one for those that believe in the truth.

Are you really siding with those that would deny the presenting of science films because they contradict fundamentalist Christian teachings?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Who's condemning Christianity? The condemnation (from where I'm standing) is of fundamentalism. I have an issue with fundamentalism regardless of the religion - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

He may have exaggerated to make a point, but the basic idea that empirical science is being denied due to fundamentalist religious beliefs is a scary one for those that believe in the truth.

Are you really siding with those that would deny the presenting of science films because they contradict fundamentalist Christian teachings?

I'm not siding with them at all. But if a few dumb Christians get press, where is the press showing a atheists organizing protests against the USA? Where is the press showing how terrible the fundamentalists in the Middle East are?

It's not comparable nor fair. Equal press is ALL I am asking for.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'm not siding with them at all. But if a few dumb Christians get press, where is the press showing a atheists organizing protests against the USA? Where is the press showing how terrible the fundamentalists in the Middle East are?

It's not comparable nor fair. Equal press is ALL I am asking for.

Please tell me you're kidding. Where is the press showing how terrible the fundamentalists in the Middle East are? Um, pretty much any article that discusses the situation over there.

Where is the press showing atheists organizing protests against the USA? I dunno - where did you hear about this?

[Jesse_Ewiak]

Dawgfan, according to him, protesting against the war = protesting against America.

Let's see, because the so-called athiests aren't in the charge of the country like George W. "Jesus was my favorite philosopher of the 20th Century" Bush. James Dobson has gotten meeting in the White House, I doubt any high profile athiests have.

Also, you don't want equal press. You want anything you don't like painted as evil while anything you agree with as perfectly fine.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And you are condemning Christianity for something that simply hasn't happened in centuries??? Yet, extreme fundamentalism in the Middle East is getting a free ride by those who might protest. Go figure.

Fundamentalists are fundamentalists are fundamentalists...

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

He's God. You can't use him, you can only think you're using him. It's like a jedi mind-trick you use on yourself. When everything's said and done, He'll have his way.

I dunno about that, fundies have been using God for a while now

[RendeR]

I'm sorry, but refusing to show something in a public forum because you or a segment of those your show it to may disagree with it seems to me to be a serious wrong.

Just because we disagree doesn't negate the rights of any of us to speak our piece.

[Cringer]

Hi.

So whats going on in this thread?

Oh, I see. Later.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Hi.

So whats going on in this thread?

Oh, I see. Later.

thanks for your contribution

[Suicane75]

I think Quicksand is a fun mentalist.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I think Quicksand is a fun mentalist.

This thread is for the serious. On that note I'll provide some A Perfect Circle lyrics.

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

This thread is for the serious. On that note I'll provide some A Perfect Circle lyrics.

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you

Interesting. Allow me to counter with,

Lemme take you somewhere, you've never been
I can show you things you've never seen
I can make you never wanna fall in love again
Come spend the night inside my sugar walls

[Coffee Warlord]

This is why you should all declare your support for my efforts in reforming the Church of Bacchus.

Get baptised now and get a free pint.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I think Quicksand is a fun mentalist.

fun (duh) mentalist

[Dutch]

Protests in US, Europe as Bush Defends Iraq War
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...aq_protests_dc

LONDON/NEW YORK (Reuters) - Thousands of protesters against the war on Iraq (news - web sites) marched in Europe and the United States on Saturday, but President Bush (news - web sites) said the invasion just two years ago shielded the world from "grave danger."

"George Bush (news - web sites) ... Uncle Sam. Iraq will be your Vietnam," chanted 45,000 protesters winding through central London as they put down a black cardboard coffin with the slogan "100,000 dead" scrawled on the lid outside the U.S. Embassy.

The protesters, marking the second anniversary of the invasion that toppled Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), called on Bush and his ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites), to pull their troops out of Iraq and restore sovereignty to its people.

The organizers of the London protest, the Stop the War Coalition, said they had tried but failed to deliver a letter to the U.S. Embassy insisting that Bush and Blair pull their forces out of Iraq.

-----The rest of the story that REUTERS felt was not important is below-----

Stop the War Coalition
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/new/involv...utus/index.htm

The Stop the War Coalition was formed on September 21st, 2001. The aim of the Coalition should be very simple: to stop the war currently declared by the United States and its allies against ‘terrorism’.

Steering Committee

The following people were elected to the Stop the War Coalition Steering Committee in 2005.

Graham Stevenson-Communist Party
Ismael Patel Friends of al- Aqsa
Paul Ingram-Green Party
Simon De Ville-Labour Against The War
Walter Wolfgang-Labour CND
Simeon Andrews-Socialist Campaign Group of MPs
Ken Smith-Socialist Party

(EDIT: There are many names and organizations that are in control of controlling and synchronizing demonstrations (about 30 or 40 I would guess), but here are the ones I keyed on.)

[HomerJSimpson]

There isn't a chance that theaters in the South weren't carrying these movies, not because of protests, but because of lack of audience? For example, around here the local science-based movie center with IMAX showed all the movies mentioned in the article, but the local "for-profit" theater with IMAX did not. There is not even the slightest possibility that the theater felt they would make more money running the upteenth straight week of "Harry Potter" counting on it making more money than "Volcanoes?" You know "fundies" have protested "Harry Potter" by the way, and these theaters weren't afraid to run it.

There is not even a slight chance this article is more motivated to shame these theaters into running movies the theaters know will not bring in as much money as others?

[Blackadar]

Interesting.

I put the blame on those who are in charge of these theaters and decided not to show it. They're either:

1. Spineless idiots.
2. Believers in creationism themselves and are using the comments of an extreme minority as an excuse to stop distribuion of the movie.

Or the movie does really SUCK and they're using this as an excuse to not carry it. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by stevew

What did god ever do to you? You seem to really hate god a lot. You might want to work the issues out some time.

One must first determine if there is a "god."

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Interesting.

Or the movie does really SUCK and they're using this as an excuse to not carry it. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

This argument would make more sense if movie theaters had never had to make a decision which movies to carry until now. But in reality they do this every day, and have for about 80 years now. I'm sure they really don't give a crap about saying no to some film, and they're hardly going to need an elaborate excuse to do so.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

This argument would make more sense if movie theaters had never had to make a decision which movies to carry until now. But in reality they do this every day, and have for about 80 years now. I'm sure they really don't give a crap about saying no to some film, and they're hardly going to need an elaborate excuse to do so.

Agreed, but IMAX movie theaters are a bit different than the normal commercial theatre.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

One must first determine if there is a "god."

Indeed...what Tek said...

[Easy Mac]

For the record, ALiens of the Deep is playing here, and it freaking rocks

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Or the movie does really SUCK and they're using this as an excuse to not carry it. I doubt it, but it's a possibility.

It is not a matter of "suck," but which will make more money for their (usually) single screen. Which one would be more popular in the south "Polar Express" or "Cosmic Voyage." "Harry Potter" or "Volcanoes?" (And again, many "fundies" don't like Harry Potter yet there was no shortage of screens for it). Again, I've lived near two different IMAX theaters in science centers (in the South), and they both had all the movies listed that "don't play" down here. I've also frequented a local "for profit" IMAX theater, and for the most part they have always had a more current Hollywood movie than a documentary. I really do think this is an attempt to make "outrage" out of complete fiction.

[Klinglerware]

Last weekend, I saw that IMAX movie about the expedition down the Nile. The camera work was pretty damn cool.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Dutch

A small number of theaters (A DOZEN or FEWER!) are not showing scientific theory because the fear of protests? That's pretty weak in itself.

But now the rest of the Christian population must endure the snide remarks from atheists who read this article?

Thanks New York Times! You guys are the greatest.

NY Times has a long and documented history of being very hostile towards people of faith, in particular Christians. This is just par for the course.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

It is not a matter of "suck," but which will make more money for their (usually) single screen. Which one would be more popular in the south "Polar Express" or "Cosmic Voyage." "Harry Potter" or "Volcanoes?" (And again, many "fundies" don't like Harry Potter yet there was no shortage of screens for it). Again, I've lived near two different IMAX theaters in science centers (in the South), and they both had all the movies listed that "don't play" down here. I've also frequented a local "for profit" IMAX theater, and for the most part they have always had a more current Hollywood movie than a documentary. I really do think this is an attempt to make "outrage" out of complete fiction.

Did you actually read the article? Where is the 'complete fiction'? Did the reporter simply make all of this stuff up? The IMAX theaters near you in the South played the listed movies, so thus all IMAX science theaters in the South must have done so as well, and this is all just a mean-spirited attempt by the Christian-hating liberal press to make up controversy?

"Volcanoes," released in 2003 and sponsored in part by the National Science Foundation and Rutgers University, has been turned down at about a dozen science centers, mostly in the South, said Dr. Richard Lutz, the Rutgers oceanographer who was chief scientist for the film.

The question isn't about what commercial IMAX theaters are willing to show, it's about what supposed science IMAX theaters are willing to show. If an IMAX theater associated with a museum or science center is allowing pressure from fundamentalist religious groups to prevent them from showing certain films that disagree with their fundamentalist stance, does that not trouble you?

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Did you actually read the article? Where is the 'complete fiction'? Did the reporter simply make all of this stuff up? The IMAX theaters near you in the South played the listed movies, so thus all IMAX science theaters in the South must have done so as well, and this is all just a mean-spirited attempt by the Christian-hating liberal press to make up controversy?



The question isn't about what commercial IMAX theaters are willing to show, it's about what supposed science IMAX theaters are willing to show. If an IMAX theater associated with a museum or science center is allowing pressure from fundamentalist religious groups to prevent them from showing certain films that disagree with their fundamentalist stance, does that not trouble you?

No, I really didn't, and thank you for exposing me as an idiot. I'll sit down now.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

NY Times has a long and documented history of being very hostile towards people of faith, in particular Christians. This is just par for the course.

Yes, and you are just a paragon of virtue and tolerance.

fucktard

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Yes, and you are just a paragon of virtue and tolerance.

fucktard

Sheez, for someone who hates me so much, you really can't control yourself by going elsewheres, can you? Follow me, follow me, I must really strike a nerve

[stkelly52]

I just don't see why this is a problem. Yes the theater's decision is based around religion, but, there have been no protests. In fact, in this case, FUNDAMENTALIST HAVE DONE NOTHING! Theater operators simply understand thier target audence and display movies that the local communty will come watch. They gave this movie a shot. They played it before a test audience and by and large the audience was not impressed, so they chose to not show the film. That is the free interprise system folks. If you want to sell something then you have to make something that people will buy. If you are interested in making a great documentary and you are not going to cater it to the people who might watch it, well it might wind up being a great work, and you can be very proud of it, but it may well still lose money. That is the way of the world that we live in.

[KeyserSoze]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

I just don't see why this is a problem. Yes the theater's decision is based around religion, but, there have been no protests. In fact, in this case, FUNDAMENTALIST HAVE DONE NOTHING! Theater operators simply understand thier target audence and display movies that the local communty will come watch. They gave this movie a shot. They played it before a test audience and by and large the audience was not impressed, so they chose to not show the film. That is the free interprise system folks. If you want to sell something then you have to make something that people will buy. If you are interested in making a great documentary and you are not going to cater it to the people who might watch it, well it might wind up being a great work, and you can be very proud of it, but it may well still lose money. That is the way of the world that we live in.

Thanks. I don´t have to write since it explains all my view

[miked]

I like God, but apparently alot of people who believe in him/her want to remain undereducated. Heaven forbid people in the least educated states actually learn something that doesn't contradict religion like volcanoes and galaxies and stuff. Movies like this aren't trying to push an agenda, they are trying to push education in a cool forum.

I'm not being unfair towards the Southern states, just stating fact but the bottom 15 education states contain Tenn, Ga, Fla, Miss, Ala, LA, Ken, and Tex is mightly close. Shit like this is among the reasons.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Sheez, for someone who hates me so much, you really can't control yourself by going elsewheres, can you? Follow me, follow me, I must really strike a nerve

No, I'm just having fun giving you the proper respect you deserve. None!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

No, I'm just having fun giving you the proper respect you deserve. None!

Ha! You love me, you really love me!

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

I just don't see why this is a problem. Yes the theater's decision is based around religion, but, there have been no protests. In fact, in this case, FUNDAMENTALIST HAVE DONE NOTHING! Theater operators simply understand thier target audence and display movies that the local communty will come watch. They gave this movie a shot. They played it before a test audience and by and large the audience was not impressed, so they chose to not show the film. That is the free interprise system folks. If you want to sell something then you have to make something that people will buy. If you are interested in making a great documentary and you are not going to cater it to the people who might watch it, well it might wind up being a great work, and you can be very proud of it, but it may well still lose money. That is the way of the world that we live in.

For the commercial IMAX theaters, I agree with you - the market should be the driving decision-making force. For the science center and museum IMAX theaters though, I think this is a shameful decision.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Ha! You love me, you really love me!

Of course I do. Most everyone loves the village idiot.