Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)

[Edward64]

From the precipice of a historic Israeli-Saudi-US deal to a frakking Israeli-Hamas war.

Creating this dedicated thread for the conflict. About 4 pages of original posts found in the Politics thread starting below ...

World Politics - Page 5 - Front Office Football Central


Couple live feeds.

Live Webcams From Gaza | Conflict Zone âš* | Palestine Israel Gaza Strip - YouTube

LIVE Multi-Cam: Views from Israel and Gaza amid ongoing fighting - YouTube

.

[GrantDawg]

I was going to either do this or suggest this myself. It needs its own thread.


I was just trying to describe what was going on to my wife, because she really didn't know anything (and I mean she didn't know what Gaza was). She said she has been hearing people talk about this at work and she just couldn't understand it. I told her "Don't worry. Almost know one does."

[Edward64]

Blinken is going to have one busy trip. He's earning his pay for sure.

Top US diplomat will travel to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Qatar and Jordan after Israel

Also ...

US and Qatar reach ‘quiet understanding’ not to release $6bn sent to Iran for now, Treasury official tells House Democrats
:
Still, the “quiet understanding” not to move the money right now appears to be largely symbolic, given the strict restrictions that were already tied to the funds.

[CrimsonFox]

Tell her I still don't

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I was going to either do this or suggest this myself. It needs its own thread.


I was just trying to describe what was going on to my wife, because she really didn't know anything (and I mean she didn't know what Gaza was). She said she has been hearing people talk about this at work and she just couldn't understand it. I told her "Don't worry. Almost know one does."

[RainMaker]

It's a complex topic but brief summary. Palestinians are essentially broken off into 2 areas.

West Bank - An Israeli military controlled police state since the 60's. Think North Korea but the government has more resources at their disposal. There are different enclaves within it and Israel routinely sets up illegal settlements by force in the area. This area is run by Fatah, the more moderate party. They hate Hamas and would be most willing to work on diplomatic solutions.

Gaza - You've heard the phrase open air prison and that's probably the best way to describe it. It's a 25 mile strip where 2.3 million people live that cannot leave. All essentials (electricity, food, supplies) are at the whim of the Israeli government as they have a blockade. There is not clean drinking water for most. Very few schools or medical services. It's about as brutal place as you can imagine. Gets bombed regularly and is run mostly by an extremist group called Hamas.

That leads us to now. The current Israeli regime is very far-right and does not support a 2-state solution. So they made the decision to form a wedge between Fatah and Hamas. They've propped up Hamas for years which has allowed them to amass some weapons. The theory is that if your main enemy is the extremist group, there won't be pressure for a 2-state solution. This plan has backfired spectacularly.

Now it's important to mention that this attack is unprecedented. Hamas has had its attacks but they rarely advance into Israeli territory and rarely lead to this kind of death toll. The fact they were able to overrun so many military outposts and take so many hostages has never happened before.

So that's kind of where we're at. It's unchartered territory. Israel had mostly been fine with a few minor terrorist attacks each year if it meant they could keep their ethnostate and continue to encroach on lands. But the death toll from this is so staggering, that likely changes everything. Their focus will likely move from the West Bank to Gaza for now.

That leads us to these questions that no one has an answer to:

1) Does Netanyahu survive this? Public polls blame him for the failure and his strategy backfired. But he's also made strides in weakening the democratic process in the country so he can be a sort of dictator. Will public pressure force him out or does he dig in?

2) What happens with Gaza? It seems you can't just imprison millions on a small strip of land without some repercussions to citizens elsewhere.

3) Does the conflict expand? Hezbollah could get involved from Lebanon, although I think they'd like to avoid it. Will Iran be dragged into this to cover for the failures of the Israeli intelligence? Do other arab countries gain confidence now that Israel's intelligence and defense has not been as great as people assumed (similar to what we've seen with Russia).

[CrimsonFox]

But why? What is the conflict over this strip of land? Why can't the people just leave? Is it about the people or the land? DOes the land hold some sort of religious significance that they both want? Or is it a racial thing?

[RainMaker]

They can't leave because Gaza is surrounded by a huge heavily fortified wall. Those that come close to it get shot. One of the creepiest parts is that most of Gaza has never actually seen an Israeli in person in their life.

The land is mostly worthless. It's been bombed for decades and the Israelis gave up on it almost 20 years ago. It's only important strategically for Israel's desire to be a Jewish ethnostate (something Netanyahu has talked openly about). This stretch of land can act as a prison to keep undesirables out. And obviously, residents of Gaza don't want to be imprisoned and want freedom to leave, have better living conditions, and return to their homes.

The land that Israel actually wants is the West Bank. They've been slowly annexing portions and at some point, a big clash will occur. That's been where their focus has been which is why this caught the country so off guard.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They can't leave because Gaza is surrounded by a huge heavily fortified wall. Those that come close to it get shot. One of the creepiest parts is that most of Gaza has never actually seen an Israeli in person in their life.

The

Did trump make it?

[CrimsonFox]

I keep seeing news clips and notes of so and so country or so and so organization "standing with palestine". Can you separate Palestine from Hamas?
Are there civilian palestines?

[CrimsonFox]

I know nothing about the middle east because I spent all my history classes memorizing ridiculous civil war generals

[CrimsonFox]

Okay I gotta ask...if this is a prison that no one can leave, then why are were there so many americans and other nationalities there?

How is anyone allowed in if no one is allowed to leave?

IS it the hotel California? is that it?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Okay I gotta ask...if this is a prison that no one can leave, then why are were there so many americans and other nationalities there?

How is anyone allowed in if no one is allowed to leave?

IS it the hotel California? is that it?

Americans and other nationalities are not traveling to Gaza. It is nearly impossible to gain entry.

[miami_fan]

I am not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this. Since we had discussed China giving money to Iran and this is talking about Iran funding Hamas, there is a connection.

'They're opportunistic and adaptive': How Hamas is using cryptocurrency to raise funds | CNN

I'm old and don't know much about crypto other than having $53.16 worth of Bitcoin in Cash app because my son's friend's uncle want to give him Bitcoin for helping them out. I do know that one of the appeals of crypto was being able to secretly passing money around and hide from government eyes. We had to know that we were creating a easier way for the terrorists and their supporters to hide how they are funded from the people we want to stop them right?

[molson]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

But why? What is the conflict over this strip of land? Why can't the people just leave? Is it about the people or the land? DOes the land hold some sort of religious significance that they both want? Or is it a racial thing?

I think if you read the Wikipedia articles for Gaza and the West Bank, and how they came to be under Israeli control, you'll know more than most people about it. And the back and forth editing over the years created a fairly-factual depiction of events and the current state of things.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

But why? What is the conflict over this strip of land? Why can't the people just leave? Is it about the people or the land? Does the land hold some sort of religious significance that they both want? Or is it a racial thing?

It's all of the above. But also includes fair amounts of poor judgement by leadership; third parties doing war/conflict by proxy; making themselves unwelcome (see Jordanian Civil War); land being part of their ancestry and not just religious; ME countries not wanting to take in Palestinians and the financial/social impact etc.

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Okay I gotta ask...if this is a prison that no one can leave, then why are were there so many americans and other nationalities there?

How is anyone allowed in if no one is allowed to leave?

IS it the hotel California? is that it?

See below wsj link. Paywall so can't provide any details beyond the search results. My guess is they are dual citizens or aid workers, and was able to travel there. I'd guess there are a bunch of other nationalities there for same reason.

U.S. Estimates Up to 600 Americans in Gaza

An estimated 500 to 600 U.S. citizens live in the Gaza Strip, and some are looking for safe passage out, including over the border into Egypt, a senior administration official said.

Sure people are allowed to leave Gaza pre-war. It's not Hotel California. But it is maybe a Motel 6 as it's very difficult, especially for those without resources. See below. From other articles, you generally have to get visas and that's difficult as you may have to travel to Israel or into Egypt (note below that Egypt also plays a role here). My guess is the more money you have the easier it is.

Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’ at 15 | Human Rights Watch

Israel’s closure policy blocks most Gaza residents from going to the West Bank, preventing professionals, artists, athletes, students, and others from pursuing opportunities within Palestine and from traveling abroad via Israel, restricting their rights to work and an education. Restrictive Egyptian policies at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, including unnecessary delays and mistreatment of travelers, have exacerbated the closure’s harm to human rights.

“Israel, with Egypt’s help, has turned Gaza into an open-air prison,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. “As many people around the world are once again traveling two years after the start of the Covid-19 pandemic, Gaza’s more than two million Palestinians remain under what amounts to a 15-year-old lockdown.”

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Did trump make it?

Nope but my guess is he got inspiration from it (or by watching "World War Z")

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

I keep seeing news clips and notes of so and so country or so and so organization "standing with palestine". Can you separate Palestine from Hamas?
Are there civilian palestines?

I view Palestine as West Bank (controlled by Fatah) and Gaza Strip (controlled by the more extremist Hamas). So yeah, you can separate Palestinians from Hamas. Unfortunately, I do believe 99% of Palestinians have a hatred for Israelis but in differing degrees, scale & context. It's understandable that even Palestinians, who do not support Hamas, still have deep resentment against Israel.

[Edward64]

Looked up the Palestinian diaspora ...

The LATAM countries stuck out. Have to read more on why and how they've got so many Palestinians.

Palestinian diaspora - Wikipedia

It is estimated that more than 6 million Palestinians live in a global diaspora.[14]

The countries outside the Palestinian territories with significant Palestinian populations are:

Jordan 3,240,000
Israel 1,650,000
Syria 630,000
Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).
Lebanon 402,582
Saudi Arabia 280,245
Egypt 270,245
United States 255,000 (the largest concentrations in Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles; History of Palestinians in Los Angeles).
Honduras 250,000
Guatemala est. 200,000
Mexico 120,000
Qatar 100,000
Germany 80,000
Kuwait 80,000
El Salvador 70,000

[CrimsonFox]

eeeeeek Time Square is full of protesters on both sides yuk.

HEre's a fun encounter

A suspect wearing traditional Jewish attire drove up to him on a scooter, struck him with the vehicle and took the flag out of his hands, hitting him over the head multiple times with it, according to authorities.

The suspect fled on his scooter and is being sought, police say.

[Edward64]

Good to see freedom of speech at work.

Names and faces of Harvard students linked to an anti-Israel statement were plastered on mobile billboards and online sites | CNN Business

... the Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups, a coalition of Harvard student groups, earlier this week released a statement that held “the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence”
:
Some students and their groups have since distanced themselves or withdrawn their endorsements from the statement amid an intense backlash inside and outside of Harvard. Several said they did not read the statement before they signed it.

And from both (other) sides ...

A conservative nonprofit said it organized the truck featuring the virtual billboards with students’ names and images under a banner that reads: “Harvard’s Leading Antisemites.” It also published names online. CNN has not independently verified that the named students were associated with the letter.

The group’s president said in a post on X, the platform formerly known as Twitter, that the group “is removing the names of students from groups that withdrew but are also adding new names every hour.”

My wife and I were discussing Harvard and that now unemployed NYU grad. Freedom of speech but not freedom of speech without repercussions. She mentioned what our County came out with below. Wondering why our County thought it was important to come out with their irrelevant opinion.

https://www.forsythco.com/News/forsy...acks-in-israel

The Forsyth County Board of Commissioners stands in solidarity with the people of Israel who are enduring unfathomable death, injury, trauma and grief following the horrific terror attacks over the past few days. Our thoughts, hearts and prayers are with the victims and families of those lost as well as the countless others in Israel and around the world that are seeking refuge, safety and peace during such tribulation.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Gaza - You've heard the phrase open air prison and that's probably the best way to describe it. It's a 25 mile strip where 2.3 million people live that cannot leave.

Just to help make a comparison, Gaza is ~139 square miles and Chicago is ~237 square miles. Metro Chicago population is ~9.5M. Of course, Gaza doesn't have anything near the kind of modern housing stock that a city like Chicago has.

The closest size comparison to a major U.S. city is Philadelphia, which is ~134 square miles, with a metro population of 1.6M.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

eeeeeek Time Square is full of protesters on both sides yuk.

HEre's a fun encounter

Probably not very enlightened of me that my first instinct is to think "Look, if you want to fight about this -- fine. Just don't do it here. Do it over there."

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Probably not very enlightened of me that my first instinct is to think "Look, if you want to fight about this -- fine. Just don't do it here. Do it over there."

lol.....rite? I'm tryin to go see Murder on the Orient Express and Wicked...

[miked]

I'm still confused, is the best option to just open the border and tell everyone in Gaza that they can now live in Israel, a state that they do not want to exist? Everyone in the middle east has had an opportunity to help the people in Gaza and all have chosen to decline, especially Egypt (and partly Jordan). When Israel was created in 1948 (you know, where the Jews already lived), there were a lot of chances for peace that all arab states rejected. They would rather their people die than grant Jews a homeland.

So while you repeatedly bash the "ethnostate" of Israel (your anti-semitic comments notwithstanding), there is more than enough blame to go around in that area. Let's not forget Iran that also wants to wage war with Israel but prefers to arm Gaza children instead. There is a 2-state solution, but the other party (Hamas) does not want that. They want Jews wiped from the planet and there is nothing that the West or Israel can offer them. I mean, if Al Qaeda took over Canada and Mexico, outnumbered us, and wanted to wipe us from the planet, would we grant them open borders?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by miked

When Israel was created in 1948 (you know, where the Jews already lived)

Mmm, I'm not quite sure...

[HerRealName]

You might want to google "Al Nakba" because you're repeating the Florida public school version of history here.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

I'm still confused, is the best option to just open the border and tell everyone in Gaza that they can now live in Israel, a state that they do not want to exist? Everyone in the middle east has had an opportunity to help the people in Gaza and all have chosen to decline, especially Egypt (and partly Jordan). When Israel was created in 1948 (you know, where the Jews already lived), there were a lot of chances for peace that all arab states rejected. They would rather their people die than grant Jews a homeland.

So while you repeatedly bash the "ethnostate" of Israel (your anti-semitic comments notwithstanding), there is more than enough blame to go around in that area. Let's not forget Iran that also wants to wage war with Israel but prefers to arm Gaza children instead. There is a 2-state solution, but the other party (Hamas) does not want that. They want Jews wiped from the planet and there is nothing that the West or Israel can offer them. I mean, if Al Qaeda took over Canada and Mexico, outnumbered us, and wanted to wipe us from the planet, would we grant them open borders?

A more apt comparison would be Al-Qaeda (guessing you just found the worst group of brown people you could think of?) taking over 80% of America. Americans get stuffed into the remaining 20% and stripped of their rights, movement heavily restricted, resources rationed, and bombed/shot regularly.

Then Al-Qaeda says "you can keep 15%" under a bunch of conditions like giving giving up a military, regular inspections, not being able to return to your home, etc.

I have a feeling that the country that had violent outbursts over having to wear a mask at Target would probably not find this suitable.

[miked]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Mmm, I'm not quite sure...

Which part, the creation of the state or the fact that Jews had been fleeing to the area for decades before that?

Look, there is no great solution here and I hate settlements and do not support that part of the government. But I do support their right to exist and allowing free reign of Hamas in the region is counter to that. I do not think people in Gaza support a 2-state solution either, so I'm not sure what else there is to do there. Nobody seems to want to get involved other than say which side they stand with, leaving few solutions. If Hamas were disband and Israel were to rebuild Gaza and allow it to be autonomous, would that be enough for folks? Probably not. What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?

[CrimsonFox]

But can like all of the people just be refugees and just get the hell out of the entire area/country etc and like go to europe and afirca and canada and us?

Can't there just be a solution to just....EVERYBODY LEAVE THAT AREA ?

There can't be anyone that actually wants to live there anymore

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miked

What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?

Pretty sure Jordan is going to say non-Jordanian Palestinians are bad guests and won't invite them back. Like that college roommate that needed a temporary place to crash but ended up ordering a subscription to Playboy to your address.

Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود Aylūl al-ʾAswad), also known as the Jordanian Civil War,[9] was an armed conflict between Jordan, led by King Hussein, and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), led by chairman Yasser Arafat. The main phase of the fighting took place between 16 and 27 September 1970, though certain aspects of the conflict continued until 17 July 1971.

Oh, forget Lebanon also ...

Jordan allowed the fedayeen to relocate to Lebanon via Syria. Four years later, the fedayeen became involved in the Lebanese Civil War, which would continue until 1990.

[CrimsonFox]

I really think it's a good idea just like....nobody help either side. Like DON'T GIVE ANYBODY ANY MORE WEAPONS.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Can't there just be a solution to just....EVERYBODY LEAVE THAT AREA ?

There can't be anyone that actually wants to live there anymore

They are under sea, air and land blockade, from both Israel and Egypt, which control their entire border.

tl;dr: no

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by miked

Which part, the creation of the state or the fact that Jews had been fleeing to the area for decades before that?

Look, there is no great solution here and I hate settlements and do not support that part of the government. But I do support their right to exist and allowing free reign of Hamas in the region is counter to that. I do not think people in Gaza support a 2-state solution either, so I'm not sure what else there is to do there. Nobody seems to want to get involved other than say which side they stand with, leaving few solutions. If Hamas were disband and Israel were to rebuild Gaza and allow it to be autonomous, would that be enough for folks? Probably not. What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?

Eh, the phrasing made it sound like

a) most Jews lived there (and had for ages)
b) Jews were the area's primary occupants

Yes, they had been fleeing there and yes there was a declaration, but (and I'll credit you as not meaning it that way) the line read like "Hey, what's the problem? These guys were obviously here already."

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My wife and I were discussing Harvard and that now unemployed NYU grad. Freedom of speech but not freedom of speech without repercussions. She mentioned what our County came out with below. Wondering why our County thought it was important to come out with their irrelevant opinion.

https://www.forsythco.com/News/forsy...acks-in-israel

Just like everyone else, the county knows that they are better off stating their position and dealing with whatever comes from that as opposed to staying silent and having said position defined for you. Silence in this case seems to mean that not only do you not stand with Israel without qualification to use the phrase that Brian in the other thread. it could also be seen as you are actively supporting Hamas.

[RainMaker]

More targeting of journalists.

Israeli shelling along Lebanon border kills 1 journalist, wounds 6 | AP News

[RainMaker]

Telling people to evacuate and then targeting them is some sinister shit.

NEW: 70 killed after Israeli strikes hit three convoys of evacuees trying to leave northern Gaza. pic.twitter.com/HOVXZxfIAJ

— MSNBC (@MSNBC) October 13, 2023

[Edward64]

Nice it's a solid majority of 65%. Could be higher but all things considered on the state of the union, not too shabby.

Access to this page has been denied

The NPR-PBS News Hour-Marist poll found that nearly two in three Americans — or roughly 65 percent — say the government should publicly support Israel. About 23 percent said the U.S. should say or do nothing related to the conflict, and 8 percent say the U.S. should publicly criticize Israel.

Partisanship did not seem to play much of a role in the results, either, according to the poll. Around 77 percent of Republicans, 69 percent of Democrats and 54 percent of independents said they believe the U.S. should show public support for Israel amid the war.

This surprised me some. IMO Biden's response has been solid. Not sure what/how the 52% wanted Biden to respond ... Biden has publicly (and strongly) supported Israel per the 65% above.

Overall, 52 percent of respondents don’t approve of Biden’s response — 19 percent of them being Democrats and 80 percent being Republicans. Less than half of those surveyed said they do approve of how Biden is handling the war, including 77 percent of Democrats and 16 percent of Republicans.

The pollsters acknowledged that while only 16 percent of Republicans think Biden is doing a good job handling the war, only 6 percent of the GOP think he is doing a good job as president overall.

[GrantDawg]

Biden's popularity is so low that if he personally cured cancer, 52% would be unhappy about it.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Nice, balanced position & requests by the Progressives. Nice contrast to the DSA extremists.

‘We are deeply concerned’ – Progressive lawmakers make plea to Biden ahead of Israel’s Gaza campaign - POLITICO

In the letter, which was first obtained by POLITICO, CPC Chair Rep. Pramila Jayapal and others make five primary requests of the president.

1) The lawmakers said Biden should help reestablish the delivery of food, water and electricity to Gaza, 2) discourage hate crimes against both Jews and Muslims in the U.S., and 3) guarantee any supplemental funding requests made of Congress include humanitarian aid for Palestinians and Israelis. In addition, they 4) ask Biden to make the case that Israel follows international law and instruct 5) the U.S. to work with partners in the region to set up a humanitarian corridor allowing Palestinian civilians to leave Gaza.

IMO reasonable request, talking "both sides" ...

The lawmakers also condemn the Hamas’ attack and offer their agreement with Biden that Israel has the right to defend itself. But, they said, that response must be cognizant of Palestinian civilians in Gaza “who themselves are victims of Hamas.”

In order to prevent hate crimes against Jewish and Muslim Americans, the lawmakers urged Biden to communicate “to the American people that Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.”

The DSA ...

Democratic Socialists of America facing an internal reckoning on Israel - POLITICO

Rep. Jamaal Bowman let his membership lapse. Colleague Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ripped the New York chapter over a pro-Palestinian rally Sunday. And others on the left are struggling to reconcile their views with the group — even disavowing it amid criticism from across the political spectrum.

And the debate over how to respond to the declared war between Israel and Hamas has caused the beginnings of a major rift within the DSA, a group that’s viewed the Jewish state as an oppressor of Palestinians and has tried to link the issue to racial justice causes in the United States.

Sounds a little like the Harvard student groups ...

In New York, several far-left Democrats boosted to elected office by the DSA condemned a pro-Palestinian rally in Manhattan that the New York City DSA had promoted but later distanced itself from. Attendees had chanted “resistance is justified when people are occupied” and one was shown displaying a swastika in a widely circulated photo.

A day later, the NYC-DSA toned down its rhetoric, apologizing in a statement.

[Edward64]

Still enjoying Bill Maher. Good discussion on Israeli-Hamas war. He's got a former Bernie guy and an Israeli guy going back and forth on stuff.

Some comic relief in there, didn't know this was a thing (see first video at 6:35). Also on the Iranian $6B (see second video at 6:25) and currently my favorite Republican Nikki Haley (see second video at 9:20)

[CrimsonFox]

jesus israel is using white phosphorus in areas with civilians.

bad mojo

still stand with them?

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon | Human Rights Watch

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

jesus israel is using white phosphorus in areas with civilians.

bad mojo

still stand with them?

Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon | Human Rights Watch

For them to endanger civilians? No
For them to exist? Yes.

[Edward64]

If they intentionally used it against civilians, absolutely bad. But I'll wait for more reports to confirm either way.

Access Denied

Human Rights Watch said that videos recorded in Lebanon and Gaza on Tuesday and Wednesday showed airdropped white phosphorus artillery rounds — an assessment that was vehemently denied by Israeli officials. Human Rights Watch said that its analysis was corroborated through two interviews with witnesses on the ground who described a distinctive garlic-like smell that is a signature of white phosphorus.

A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said:“The current accusation made against the IDF regarding the use of white phosphorus in Gaza is unequivocally false. The IDF has not deployed the use of such munitions.” A spokesperson for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not respond to a request for comment.

NBC News, which did not have reporters present when the strikes occurred in Gaza and Lebanon, has not been able to independently verify Human Rights Watch's claims.

[miami_fan]

Many things fascinate me about this war. How it is being reported (mainstream and non mainstream on both sides of the conflict) and how the public reacts to that reporting might be the most fascinating. I am not emotionally attached on either side of this issue but it is giving me a better understanding of what I may or may not sound like when I am emotionally attached to a side of an issue.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Many things fascinate me about this war. How it is being reported (mainstream and non mainstream on both sides of the conflict) and how the public reacts to that reporting might be the most fascinating. I am not emotionally attached on either side of this issue but it is giving me a better understanding of what I may or may not sound like when I am emotionally attached to a side of an issue.

yeah i know, right? There have been people just JUPMING to a side immediately and demanding fealty to a side and I'm like still trying to put all the pieces together so that ANYTHING about it makes sense.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Biden's popularity is so low that if he personally cured cancer, 52% would be unhappy about it.

He literally promised to cure it on the campaign trail.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

yeah i know, right? There have been people just JUPMING to a side immediately and demanding fealty to a side and I'm like still trying to put all the pieces together so that ANYTHING about it makes sense.

Not only that, but how some are very quick to question every Israel action while forgetting (or giving a free pass on) many of America's responses as part of it's 20-year war on terror following 9/11.

[CrimsonFox]

Question of the day: If HAMAS are Palestinians...but different from the Palestinians on the west bank ...like those Palestinians are the good ones and Hamas are just bad apples...then where are the palestinian statements condemning the attacks? I'm seeing the opposite...I'm seeing protests and such. I'm seeing Extreme nationism by...well both Palestine and Israel. But no condemnation of the act.

[Flasch186]

I think the moderates feel stuck

They “know what Hamas did was bad” but they cannot allow the question of Israel existing and second classing them slide either.

They will, on Facebook, throw out the mandatory “All killing is bad” but that’s just a throw away to check the box.

They have to always keep the narrative of their treatment front and center and

Btw

My guess is every oppressed people do the same thing.

Humans


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Question of the day: If HAMAS are Palestinians...but different from the Palestinians on the west bank ...like those Palestinians are the good ones and Hamas are just bad apples...then where are the palestinian statements condemning the attacks? I'm seeing the opposite...I'm seeing protests and such. I'm seeing Extreme nationism by...well both Palestine and Israel. But no condemnation of the act.

They were busy being killed.

Settlers and soldiers have killed 51 Palestinians in the West Bank since Saturday. At least two Palestinian villages have been entirely depopulated. @yuval_abraham reports for @972mag in partnership with @theintercept https://t.co/8lxFEgq88h

— Ali Gharib (@Ali_Gharib) October 13, 2023

[illinifan999]

Nova music festival: How a rave turned into a frenzied massacre

Pretty in-depth look at when the Palestinians decided to conduct target practice on the music festival.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Question of the day: If HAMAS are Palestinians...but different from the Palestinians on the west bank ...like those Palestinians are the good ones and Hamas are just bad apples...then where are the palestinian statements condemning the attacks? I'm seeing the opposite...I'm seeing protests and such. I'm seeing Extreme nationism by...well both Palestine and Israel. But no condemnation of the act.

My take, take it FWIW. Generalizing the 3 groups in Palestine ...

1) In Gaza, there are extremist Hamas & "normal" Palestinians
2) In West Bank, there are less extremist Fatah & "normal" Palestinians
3) Hamas and Fatah hate each other. Hamas killed & ejected Fatah from Gaza around 2006-2007.
4) Fatah is moving on with governing the parts of West Bank they control, they are less confrontational with Israel. Hamas, arguably, would win a popular election over Fatah (I've seen 52%-57%). In other words, Fatah is relatively weak in the court of popular opinion.
5) Hamas, Fatah, and 90% of "normals" are antisemitic. Differing levels for sure but even for "normals", it's still pretty high. Not making a statement if this is right or wrong for the "normals", just saying it's pretty much a sad reality due to history & circumstances.

To answer your question specifically ...

The reason why there is little/no condemnation by the "normals" for the attacks is because they support it to a certain level. Not saying they support the supposed (beheading) of babies, but my guess is little problem with killing Israeli soldiers or adult settlers. Again, looking from "both sides", it is understandable "normal" Palestinians are PO'd at the Israelis.

The reason why Fatah does not condemn it is because they'll lose even more popular support (see #4 above). The best they can do is lukewarm support the attacks. (And if I was them, I'd give the Israelis as much intel on Hamas as I could)