The 1980 Regular Season Thread

[Alan T]

[Chief Rum]

Nice, five players on that list.

[Tasan]

Ugh, only 1 for the Rancheros. I'm glad I didn't say F it and trade Morris last season though, that would have hurt.

[Alan T]

How good has Tanaka's career been? This is the list of all FOOL's players that have reached a score of 100 or higher for the HOF monitor:

Hall Of Fame Hitter Tests
first_name	last_name	age	HOF Monitor	TotalStandards	BlackInkPoints	GrayInkPoints
"Hideaki"	"Tanaka"	40	268.5	80.4717867546766	31	223
"Mac"	"Rasmussen"	36	165	47.5564556243596	50	211
"Rick"	"Inman"	39	153	63.0531994471682	40	225
"Christian"	"Larsen"	41	142	64.4616831458524	23	131
"Rich"	"Lang"	32	132.5	50.1729939857066	55	204
"Edgardo"	"Reyes"	37	124	47.0638432104494	29	175
"Ánibal"	"Ramírez"	30	121.5	50.7799000305146	14	91
"Holden"	"Matthews"	30	117.5	31.1885248894564	35	140
"Fernando"	"Spindola"	38	115	44.205717333352	29	148

[Tasan]

I can't seem to get the file to work. Is there a direct link somewhere?

[Tasan]

Well, crapola. I can't get the FLOP file either. Guess its this flaky internet connection where I'm visiting.

[Tasan]

Okay this is pissing me off, I just want to see my teams (FLOP and FOOL). Anyone know why I'd get to 96% EVERYTIME and it craps out on me, for both files?

[TimGuru]

I wasn't around for the moaning and groaning about Hartford, and its probably a good thing. I've had to back space 2 attempts at posting about it. Let me humorously sum up my thoughts about Anthony's posts by saying, he should find the Barack Obama League which "spreads the wealth around". Muns does an excellent job, and from my PM interactions with him, is a fair, smart owner who knows EXACTLY what he wants to do with his team. A month ago, the RL was being celebrated as wide open and any of 6 teams could win it, while the CL was watching Alan tear us up.

I'm not gonna moan and groan about Chief if he goes on a run either. I'm very happy that in the past few seasons we have discussed some issues and had some educational classes from Alan which I think gives newer owners a competitive leg up. I think with our financials it is a given that multi-year dynasties emerge, if you bring up a crop of youth that fit well together, you can easily sign the last few pieces you need to win year after year.

I agree with Chief that the higher stakes of only being in first place mattering makes the league make you want to try a little harder. I don't want to be ALMOST as good as Atlanta and steal glory in a short series, I want to be BETTER than Atlanta, no questions asked. I've been having fun trying to develop a strategy and trying to set makeable goals for myself each year. I've also learned that the current 2 or 3 acknowledged zen men are very familiar with the whole league, not just their own ML team, and offer very good trades which are actually mutually beneficial, which I believe goes a long way toward long term success in the trade market. You might screw me on one trade if I'm not really paying attention or desperate for a given piece even if its inferior to what I'm giving up, but don't come knocking again. If you work with me to get the piece YOU really want, come back often.

[TimGuru]

Boy was Norm Hunter a bust. 4 yr/54 mil, never drove in 100. Buhbye.

Of course, it didn't help when i signed him that I had thought my ballpark was the dimensions of Colorado's or atleast someone elses.

Speaking of which, I believe I am going to exercise my "4 yrs in the league, one time" rights and change my fences this off season.

[Commo_Soldier]

My thoughts on this season:

• Congrats to Chief on being the first GM to make it into the classic in both the CL and RL. My team tried their best from you doing so.
• Congrats to the AI on keeping Muns team afloat
• Big props to Muns for building a dominant team where his export didn't even matter when it came to getting back to the classic.
• Another dismal year for the brownstones, although I do see light with the potential of my staff in the next year or two.
• For the dynasty talk, I think it is a good thing for the league as it keeps things competitive, which is one of the big reasons we all should be here. If not then maybe a solo league would be best for people. *I am not saying this to any one in particular as I really didn't read the discussion, but briefly glanced at it.

Well there's always next week!

[Tasan]

Just for the record, I hope nobody took my playful poking as moaning and groaning. I welcome the competition, I just like stoking the flames of rivalries. ;- )

[Young Drachma]

Congrats to Chief for doing the career pennant double. And to Hartford's steamroller.

Alan, I love the HoF monitor. Naturally I want to figure out how you did it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm not sayiong I disagree, but given the numbers you have tossed out, consider that in the last 14 years of real life MLB, we have seen the Yankees, Red Sox and A's make very consistent long term runs, and the Braves continued their excellence that started before. The Angels have been very good since 2002. So three major franchises in 14 years doesn't seem to be to bad, especially when we haven't mentioned DC's teams, Ann Arbor's early success or the recent dominance of Baltimore.

It can happen, making the moves and getting it right at the right time, but I understand your frustration. I think I would be, too, if I were still in the RL (although knowing me, I would stubbornly take it as a challenge and prove I could catch him ).

The best news is, one season per week. muns won't be good forever, and forever is right around the corner.

well, the best solution isn't "he has the best team, live with it, his dominance will only last for a decade which in this league is about a month". that's not a great solution. and even though the Braves were the best team in the NL for a long time, winning all those division championships for 14 seasons in a row - they don't have many World Series championships to show for it since once you get to the playoffs it's a whole new ballgame. just seems FOOL is about watching the same 2 or 3 teams go to the championship game every year. if this were real life this league would've folded by now cuz any team not named Valdosta or Hartford could never get anyone to come to their park knowing all but 2 or 3 teams had a realistic shot at winning. heck, the Yankees were eliminated from winning the AL East since August i think, but they still had people rooting for them all the way into september due to having a small chance of getting the wild card. i guess i'm frustrated. i don't want to quit, but i'm not seeing much of a return on my investment of time in the 4 or 5 seasons i've been doing this. Hartford is a nice team, but a little parity goes a long way. i mean, c'mon, the guy missed the most important sim of the week and he completely dominates the RL. that's ludicrous.

[TimGuru]

You really need to be done with this now, Anthony. You've made your point, lamely, frankly. The Ai sent down 10-12 of muns' guys, and they were all no-brainer decisions for the most part. Muns may or may not have decided for himself to go with a 4 man rotation, an AI decision that certainly benefitted him, since he only had to suffer with 9 starts out of Domenic Shearer. Compare to your 5th, Billy Pope, who went 6-15 with a comparable ERA to Shearer's.

This is an offseason league. Muns built a juggernaut. You are correct that his team is so good that the AI couldn't bungle it enough to prevent it from winning. The problem with your logic is that his team has the LOWEST PAYROLL. He has played by the rules we've had in place, and has assembled unbelievable talent. Frankly, his AAA team is better than your major league team. His current dominance is the result of more than ten seasons of losing at the ML level and building through good drafting and identification of talent. Look at his team's average age. Look at the contracts he has out there. McGill is the only remotely big-money bat he has under long term signage. He has 3 pitchers signed to long term deals over 5 mil, and all project to be in the prime age bracket the whole length of the deal. Compare to your contracts to Hunt and Summers.

I'm a person in a glass house in terms of that factor, I gave stupid contracts to Hunter and the guy from the VL I got rid of before this year, and traded Josh Robinson to be saddled with Mark Taylor's declining production at big ticket money. I can either learn from my mistakes, commit to mediocrity for a few seasons and develop my younger players, or ask for the playoffs to be expanded wide enough that I can hope to mismanage my team to a lucky 4th place finish and have a taste of the playoffs. I have the pride to choose option A, trying harder.

[Young Drachma]

The general consensus sentiment in the league from the beginning has been, "I don't mind not having playoffs, because it's only a week before I have to wait until the next season."

At the same time, playoffs do generate interest and keep people more invested in building a team that's successful, because they might be more likely to actually have a chance to play in the postseason.

We've done it both ways. For the first 3 years, we had playoffs. My logic then was "why have people play all year and only let two teams in." Plus we had lots of AI teams back then and I was worried that might be an issue if we were boxed out by them.

When we moved things here, most folks said what I said in the first sentence, so we went with that. I floated playoff expansion at different times and it wasn't something folks were super excited about, save for the brief time when we almost passed realignment for the purpose of it.

Here's an idea that I doubt anyone will like, but..I think could be interesting.

How about we award the RL and CL pennants to the teams that actually win the regular season title. But we do a custom playoffs in OOTP that takes the top 4 teams from league. And rather than do a natural intra-league playoff, why not an inter-league playoff bracket that takes the 1st place team from the RL against the 4th team from the CL and vice versa:

1st v. 4th
2nd v. 3rd

I realize that would mean you could have two league rivals facing off for the title. But...I don't really think that's a problem, per se. Because then you'd have two distinct seasons. The "regular" season and the "postseason."

People invest a lot of time here and it can be frustrating to have the chase a juggernaut. This is not, however, an indictment on anyone's team, as I've been pondering this idea from a macro-level view since pretty much the league started.

If we consider what expanded playoffs have done for MLB, I can only imagine what it'd do for FOOL. I don't think the top 4 teams in each league would be watering it down, either. Best of seven series for each round would be a concession to "purists" who might want to ensure the "best" team is more likely to prevail. But as we've seen in the past here, teams with great records sometimes don't necessarily dominate the 2nd and 3rd place teams, they just rack up a lot of wins against the bottom of the league and as a result, get hot and ride their way to a title.

And this is coming from the guy who has 8 RL titles, so I've been guilty of this more than I've been a victim to it. I'm just proposing an alternative idea that folks can chew on...or not.

Not of course, taking ANYTHING away from the titles of this year or past seasons and I think everyone knows that. But simply put, I think Anthony actually has a point

[TimGuru]

Lets consider 1978:

In the CL, Atlanta at 77-77 would have made the playoffs under your scenario. Was it a major burden for Atlanta to wait 2 years (weeks) to prevail?

In the RL, Colorado was 79-75 and the 4th place team there. He has improved to 82-72 this year and appears to be on the doorstep of contending with the Pooners.

More dramatically, San Diego was 59-95 in 78 and this year was 81-73. Is his accomplishment with that kind of turn around less satisfactory than it would have been if he had snuck into an NHL version of the playoffs this year?

The Violators were 88-66 in 78, dominating "everyone else" in the RL. There is no way that the Pooners should have had to share the playoff glory in the RL with an 88 win team in a year that they won 106.

I personally think the idea of 8 teams in a 16 team league making the playoffs would ruin the league. Everyone would chase mediocrity year after year, trying to steal the 4th place in their league with a team that probably shouldn't. It would shred the legacy of owners that have built with a plan and then dominated with it.

From a practical standpoint, it is also kind of nice to be able to take Saturday through Monday "off" from FOOL. If one were perenially making the playoffs, it becomes a 7 day a week job, which I think would actually increase turnover more so than dynasties do.

Its clear how the league championships cycle works when you sign up. Part of the allure of the league is that you can make your own fun, set a goal for yourself, and then in my case, miserably fail to meet it for a couple of seasons in a row.

[Young Drachma]

Sorry, I was just playing devil's advocate largely. I'm not advocating for anything. At all. I just want to make that clear before anyone misreads my comments I was just throwing an alternative view out there, was all, because I have a tendency to see things from all sides.

I think FOOL works well and given the model, it can be a fragile balance to hold together. So making dramatic changes could be devastating.

I have no doubt you all will make good choices and be good stewards of its future, though.

[Alan T]

As a player, I never wanted there to be expanded playoffs, I hate how OOTP's randomness kicks in during playoff time and it really annoys me when I lose do to something silly. OOTP has some just plain odd behavior at times during the playoffs (it likely is always there but just more noticable during the playoffs). I believe once Ronco hypotheisized that Markus actually has streak/slump code built in that he just has never gone through the explaining of how it works. I just believe that a player should be on a "hot streak" due to their performances in the game, and not what ootp does, have a player perform well in the game because of being on a "hot streak". I wanted to win because I was the best, or lose because I wasn't quite good enough. I didn't want to lose to a team that got a freak win, or win against a team that was obviously better than me.

Now, as the commish without having a team, I am less interested in what I would want as a player, and more interested in what would be in the best interest of the league. One of the considerations for what is best interest of the league is obviously what would make the owners happy, or what type of world do the owners want? In the case of expanded playoffs though, we've taken votes every few years repeatedly, and they almost always have ended fairly close vote wise. There has never really been an overwhelming support for one way or another and I am guessing the same would be true here. This really can't get on the agenda to be changed for next year, as there is already a very huge change next year in the removal of the VL (and other non-FOOL related leagues). I think it is probably something that the Board can consider for upcoming season though and they can see if the general consensus is that most people do want the change or not.

As for teams not being able to experience the playoffs because of dynasties.. I think that is a little bit of a misconception due to the pace of the league perhaps. In normal online leagues, you go 4-6 months for one season. This league has been alive for roughly 5 months or so, and has run about 20 seasons. So a dynasty in another online league might mean you have to wait 3 years Real life time before having a chance.. Here it might mean waiting 2 months tops.

Some stats from our current league.. post-1965 realignment:

16 teams

-13 different teams have made the playoffs. That means in roughly 3 months time, almost the entire league has made the playoffs at one point or another in this current format.

-The most FOOL Seasons that any team has won consecutive pennants since 1965 has been 3. Which means in one month, we have never had one team (even our dynasties) win every single pennant that year.

- Since 1965 has ended, 9 different teams have won the FOOL title.

I think that our salary cap and aggressive major league service time settings have a big part to do with keeping this league compeittive. I also think that the financial changes made this season that will be going into effect for this offseason also will help that further.

Even as good of a team as Hartford currently has, Eventually drafting dead last every year will make the talent in their minors thin out big time. At the same time, their young cheap players will suddenly be up for free agency and they will have to make decisions on which to pay and which to keep.

So I guess I am saying that I can understand how frustrating it might be to finish behind a juggernaut multiple seasons, but i feel in this league because of the pace and league settings it is much faster for that to be taken care of than other online leagues. That said, if the majority of people are in favor of a playoff system, I think the league's owners should be the ultimate decision on that. We'll have to figure out how that effects the schedule and what settings would be used later.

[Alan T]

Are freeswingers on the rise? Entering this season, the record for most strikeouts in a season was held by Carlos Gonzales who struck out 268 batters in 1968.

This season, not one.. not two, but three pitchers broke that 12 year old record.

All three pitchers were from Hartford (suprise, suprise). Dylan Robinson and Jorge Aquino are now #2 and #3 on the all time list for single-season strikeouts. #1 on the list is Artie Wiley who became the first pitcher in FOOL history to strike out 300 batters in a season.

[Young Drachma]

Alan makes excellent points.

[Young Drachma]

Dola --

Hartford makes history this year. The first team since 1961-65 St. Louis to make 4 straight Classics. All the more impressive is the fact that they've done it in the uber competitive modern era of FOOL!

[Young Drachma]

I was afraid I didn't have Atlanta's unusual banner design saved. Luckily, I'm smarter than I thought and it's probably a testament to greygoose's skills that I expected to be making more after that initial '73 title. Congrats again to Chief on the career league double. Now the FOOL Grand Slam would be winning a FOOL Classic in both leagues. And of course, being only the second GM in history to lead two teams to the Classic.

[Pike]

*******************

[kaosfere]

Originally Posted by Pike

As the new guy I don't expect my opine to carry much (any) weight.

Please stop saying this, Pike.

As far as I'm concerned, modulo any insight gained from having experienced FOOL history, your voice carries just as much weight as any other here.

Ceterum censeo, Hartford esse delendam.

[TimGuru]

Originally Posted by Pike

Wow, that was a bit harsh.

As the new guy I don't expect my opine to carry much (any) weight. With that said, here it is anyway:

A wild card would be nice. It would have made this season much, much more interesting instead of watching Hartford lead the RL by double digit games from May on. I say this as the GM of a bad team who won't likely be in 2nd place for some time to come. Tim's example of 8 teams in a 16 team league making the playoffs is off the mark. No one that I saw was advocating that. 4 teams in a 16 team league is just fine. It is the same ratio more or less used in most pro sports. If we had divisions of 4 teams each, which would be fairly normal, you'd also have 4 playoff teams. It's not that outlandish.

Now Tim, if that makes me a whiner or a bad sport to you sorry. I simply think it makes things more interesting. You may not have liked Anthony's take, but it didn't warrant the insult post you leveled on him.

MLB playoff games are something of a crapshoot, sure. The Cardinals won 88 games in 06 and won the WS. It was crazy, unlikely, and fun as hell to watch. I just don't see the downside.

Anyway, rant off.

I'm glad to see I at least didn't finish last, and even managed to be in the pack off and on this season (albeit 30 games out from Hartford). My pitching wasn't nearly as a good as I had hoped and my offense was worse. LOL, it's gonna be a long road. I'll be much more inclined to make trades this offseason, to be sure.

I want to also say thanks to Chief and Alan for their posts on strategy---very helpful stuff there for us newbs!

The top 4 teams from each league is exactly what DC's post proposed:

And rather than do a natural intra-league playoff, why not an inter-league playoff bracket that takes the 1st place team from the RL against the 4th team from the CL and vice versa:

As to "make it more interesting", I don't understand how interesting watching 1st of the month standings get posted over a 20 minute period needs to be. The whole point of this league is building in the offseason. Thats why its called the Front Office OFFSEASON League.

[TimGuru]

dola

And I'll stand behind my harshness. Anthony has posted multiple times in this thread, basically trick or treating ("gimme candy for showing up"). He has been in the league by his own post's account, for 4 or 5 seasons, but is upset he hasn't won anything. Simple laws of probability without taking into account past performance of the franchises and skill of the owners says that you can't even complain about the odds not falling your way until you miss for 8 straight years. All other things being equal, you have a 1 in 8 shot at making the Classic. Anthony is advocating for the league championship to take on the element of luck (refer to his post where he talks about the Pats/Giants and multiple times says the best team doesn't always win). This league was appealing because it cuts down immeasureably on the element of luck; if you piece together a winner, it should win. There are plenty of other leagues with wide open playoffs and coin-toss levels of success. I will be adamant in trying to keep this one's unique appeal.

[Alan T]

I think there is plenty of room here for Anthony's opinion as I am sure he is not the only one who feels the way he does. I bet others probably feel the same way but are less vocal about it due to many of the very vocal people (such as myself) being against playoff expansion.

I have no problem with Anthony sharing his thoughts and what he would like to see, the same way as everyone else can. I don't see any reason that this whole issue needs to become an Anthony vs the world thing either. In almost every one of our votes regarding this subject in the past, it has been fairly close one way or another.

As long as Anthony is willing to receive other people's ideas that might be different than his, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't listen to his as well.

[Chief Rum]

I agree with Alan. I also am one of the vocal owners, I suppose, but I actualyl lean more toward Anthony's thinking. I have never been against the concept of some form of expanded playoffs, although I do think DC's proposal is a bit too far reaching. I like the concept of four divisions, four champions, a two-tier playoffs (second tier FOOL Classic, of course).

I definitely think that, while I appreciate the passion that both Anthony and TimGuru and others have voiced on the issue, that we should definitely stick to the ideas and not make any attacks on each other, even in inference. Both sides have merit, and there's no reason to do anything but discuss the concepts being proposed.

A few seasons ago, DC ran a mock playoff involving the second through fifth place teams in the league during the FOOL Classic sim. I really liked the idea. It was meaningless, but fun anyway. I'm not saying people should aim for that, but it would surely at least affect some goals you have and be something to point to until you can get to the top. After all, there is something to showing that maybe you were a dynasty yourself, but trapped behind a Hartford or a Valdosta. If we did that, I would advocate no exports for it--Alan would just run it off of the original season exports, and then import the FOOL Classic participants to run the Classic.

Anyway, just an idea for the future, until we hammer out playoffs (or decide we're not doing it).

[Tasan]

A little break from this disagreement, can I get a direct link to the league file? OOTP is rebelling against all attempts to download ANY league file right now. I can, however, download regular links in firefox just fine.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Tasan

A little break from this disagreement, can I get a direct link to the league file? OOTP is rebelling against all attempts to download ANY league file right now. I can, however, download regular links in firefox just fine.

I believe this should always work as an alternate download method for the file each time. You'll want to extract it from outside of the game to your FOOL.lg folder though and then launch OOTP9

http://omnivore.us/reports/FOOL.lg.tar.gz

[ekcut]

All opinions are created equal....

Mine, which counts for 1/16th is the same as everyone elses is this...

My first 7 seasons in the league I never finnished higher than 5th....I did EVERYTHING thing I could over that time, but somethings can not be solved quickly. I am no smarter now, than I was then, but because I was able to bit by bit piece together a winner, I was able to field a very good team that unfortunaly became a bridesmaid to that Valdosta jugernaught too many times to count...Oh ya, I was frusterated...seeing my name umong the alltime worst managers in the league in the winning% department, I FINNALLY had a championship calibur team, but was constantly 2nd fiddle to the powerhouse of all powerhouses.
I finally did it though...Valdosta, as dominant as they were, couldn't keep it up for ever...I was able to outlast their aging team, and sneak two championships in there before my players started on the downward side of their career mountain. My point amidst this metaphor salad is this...I would not trade any of my 2nd place "oh I was THIS close" finnishes for a Wildcard playoff victory, at the expense of my ellation of winning the whole salami in the current format.
Everyone will win...My time is up, Alans time was up, muns's time will soon be up, and then we will have a large rebuild ahead of us. I have ZERO prospects, I have $3mil in cap room and most players are at the 27-32 age where each year I look at their ratings through the cracks in my fingers that are covering my eyes...Muns will experience the same thing right away, and then that league is up for grabs...

Give it two weeks, the face of this league will be ENTIRELY different!!

[Pike]

Originally Posted by TimGuru

The top 4 teams from each league is exactly what DC's post proposed:





As to "make it more interesting", I don't understand how interesting watching 1st of the month standings get posted over a 20 minute period needs to be. The whole point of this league is building in the offseason. Thats why its called the Front Office OFFSEASON League.

Originally Posted by TimGuru

dola

And I'll stand behind my harshness. Anthony has posted multiple times in this thread, basically trick or treating ("gimme candy for showing up"). He has been in the league by his own post's account, for 4 or 5 seasons, but is upset he hasn't won anything. Simple laws of probability without taking into account past performance of the franchises and skill of the owners says that you can't even complain about the odds not falling your way until you miss for 8 straight years. All other things being equal, you have a 1 in 8 shot at making the Classic. Anthony is advocating for the league championship to take on the element of luck (refer to his post where he talks about the Pats/Giants and multiple times says the best team doesn't always win). This league was appealing because it cuts down immeasureably on the element of luck; if you piece together a winner, it should win. There are plenty of other leagues with wide open playoffs and coin-toss levels of success. I will be adamant in trying to keep this one's unique appeal.

Wow, you really are being a jerk about this and there's no need to be. I missed DC's 8 team idea......I would only support 4, which would put FOOL in the same ratio as most pro sports leagues.

As for luck......how is the Classic any different? Wouldn't Hartford, who is obviously the best team in the league, just deserve the trophy now? Why even play the Classic? By your argument, the Yanks should have won a lot more WS's this decade than they have. The Angels this year, or the Cubs should never have had to risk the playoffs and just been crowned based on their regular season marks, right? Well maybe to you, but to me and most folks that is just plain boring.

We aren't talking about a one game and your done deal. It's a series. Usually, the best team is still gonna win. And with only 4 teams, it's not like Hartford or whoever is having to jump through the 'lucky' hoops all that much.

I just don't see a problem with the idea. But then I also supported the WC in MLB so I guess it's a pattern with me. Make no doubt though, it's a good thing for this league if more owners feel they have a shot.

[Tasan]

Rules clarification:

I can release anyone I want right now as long as they are making less than 5 million, right?

[TimGuru]

I like Chief re-injecting DC's idea of the 2 through 5 tourney.

I appreciate the eloquence of what ekcut was saying, which is similar to the points I've been making. When trying to climb a mountain, you should get credit in the record book for reaching the official summit. If you achieve a personal best closer to the summit on your current attempt, you should by all means be proud of that achievement in the meantime.

The Classic should be for the champion of each league, who never had the opportunity to face each other in the first 154 because we don't have interleague play. CL and RL are pretty dissimilar at the moment, the best should clash to see which is better in a best of 7 series, but the banner for the league championship is the real prize in my opinion.

And now I'm done with this topic unless it comes up for vote, in which case you can count on mine being for against increasing the playoffs (other than something similar to what Chief referred to). I will respect Alan's implied request to cease and desist now.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by TimGuru

You really need to be done with this now, Anthony. You've made your point, lamely, frankly. The Ai sent down 10-12 of muns' guys, and they were all no-brainer decisions for the most part. Muns may or may not have decided for himself to go with a 4 man rotation, an AI decision that certainly benefitted him, since he only had to suffer with 9 starts out of Domenic Shearer. Compare to your 5th, Billy Pope, who went 6-15 with a comparable ERA to Shearer's.

This is an offseason league. Muns built a juggernaut. You are correct that his team is so good that the AI couldn't bungle it enough to prevent it from winning. The problem with your logic is that his team has the LOWEST PAYROLL. He has played by the rules we've had in place, and has assembled unbelievable talent. Frankly, his AAA team is better than your major league team. His current dominance is the result of more than ten seasons of losing at the ML level and building through good drafting and identification of talent. Look at his team's average age. Look at the contracts he has out there. McGill is the only remotely big-money bat he has under long term signage. He has 3 pitchers signed to long term deals over 5 mil, and all project to be in the prime age bracket the whole length of the deal. Compare to your contracts to Hunt and Summers.

I'm a person in a glass house in terms of that factor, I gave stupid contracts to Hunter and the guy from the VL I got rid of before this year, and traded Josh Robinson to be saddled with Mark Taylor's declining production at big ticket money. I can either learn from my mistakes, commit to mediocrity for a few seasons and develop my younger players, or ask for the playoffs to be expanded wide enough that I can hope to mismanage my team to a lucky 4th place finish and have a taste of the playoffs. I have the pride to choose option A, trying harder.

you people like to act like ostriches and put your heads in the sand rather than discuss things whenever there's an issue. if you don't like it then skip my posts. if i'm gonna do this then it's gotta make sense for me to invest my time. i'm not expecting the playoffs to be implemented next season, but i am expecting people to say "you know what, it *is* kinda silly for a team like Hartford to be constructed so good that the owner doesn't even need to make the most important exports of the week, the AI can handle it. and it *is* getting kinda old to go through all these exports every nite just to see the same ole teams finishing in first." Hartford finished 17 games ahead of the next best team. and it hasn't even been competitive the last several years - heck at least in the CL you guys had the benefit of it being semi-close for the whole season. for some reason teams remain stagnant. i haven't seen any cases of a team starting off slow only to finish strong and jump up 3 or 4 spots in the standings. my team hovered around .500 the whole season. Hartford maintained a double digit lead in the RL the whole time. Atlanta led by 7 games or so it seemed for the whole season.

and i don't get this whole "try harder". you can try harder in studying for tests or learning how to play defense in basketball - how do you "try harder" in playing in OOTP? i laugh at this comedy.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

But simply put, I think Anthony actually has a point

thanks. i'm being so vocal about it cuz everyone seems so reluctant to talk about it. it seems everyone is always afraid to rock the boat. to be honest i've been lazy in getting some exports out (mostly the FA stages), only cuz i've found myself saying "in the end, does it really matter if i miss this export or not - Hartford is gonna dominate this season again anyway" and unfortunately the past 2 seasons that's been proven correct. i can tough it out if there's a consensus that changes are on the near horizon.

offensively, i like my team's chances in a 7 game series. if you look at the win shares report you can see 3 Violators on there, with SS Luke Crawford #2 with a bullet. i just don't see many teams with the starting pitching depth to outlast such a stacked offense like the one in Long Island. in a 7 game series we'd dominate, cuz while most teams may have uber pitchers as their 1 and 2 SPs, we'd be able to manhandle your team's #3-5 pitchers. setting the lineups takes the longest time for me in this league, only cuz i have so many guys who could be put in so many places in my lineup. this is why i'm clamouring for a playoffs, i want to get these guys in the postseason while they're in their primes cuz i'm liking what i see.

[Anthony]

ok, i finally read the last of the posts, so it seems everyone is agreeing to disagree for now and that both sides of the debate have been dually noted. i think enough people understand my point so i won't beat the proverbial dead horse.

[Pike]

Originally Posted by Anthony

in a 7 game series we'd dominate, cuz while most teams may have uber pitchers as their 1 and 2 SPs, we'd be able to manhandle your team's #3-5 pitchers.

Actually, you'd likely never see anyone past the #3 guy, and likely only see him once, in game 3.

[Commo_Soldier]

There has been too much said for me to get a bunch of quotes so:

1. I think and have always thought playoffs would be good for the league as more people would be interested in the later portions of the season. I myself have no problems and would rather wait to earn it, but have voted for playoffs in the past. I would be in support of either one extra team from each league or just simming for fun how the other teams performed against each other.
2. Everyone has an opinion and I feel they should state it. Discussion has rarely hurt anyone and we have never completly lost anyone because of discussion.
3. For discussion that teams will never be better than .500 if they start of like that is bogus, look at this 1968 season thread. Compton started of 5-19 and finished 77-70. So the finished the year 72-51 with a .586 winning %. Also in another season a team had their best month by far in August when I think they went 22-4. These are just some examples and it has happend more I am sure, but it is possible for teams to perform well late as players wear down. This is another reason I like expanded playoffs as I think teams playing well late should have a shot.
4. Anthony implies that it is impossible to try harder in this league. Really it is not that hard to do. An owner could dedicate a little more time searching the draft or FA pool. The owner could mess around in solo leagues to see how offering different contract lengths influence a players decision. There are numerous other things as well, so it is possible it just depends how bad someone really wants to win.
5. Another point Anthony tries to get across is that it is silly that a team can be constructed so well that the AI can't even screw it up. I have two thoughts on this. One why is this silly? The AI should have a good grasp on what it is doing or why even play? Two one could look at the other end and say it is silly that no one in the division is capable of putting together a good enough team to even compete with Hartford. I just think the team is that good, it happens. Now if it was a domination that lasted a decade of teams never finishing close, well then I would have to look at the second option.
6. Finally, this post is not aimed at hurting anyones feelings as I would like to believe no post in this forum is. This is just how I feel at the current moment on these items.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Commo_Soldier

There has been too much said for me to get a bunch of quotes so:[*]Another point Anthony tries to get across is that it is silly that a team can be constructed so well that the AI can't even screw it up. I have two thoughts on this. One why is this silly? The AI should have a good grasp on what it is doing or why even play? Two one could look at the other end and say it is silly that no one in the division is capable of putting together a good enough team to even compete with Hartford. I just think the team is that good, it happens. Now if it was a domination that lasted a decade of teams never finishing close, well then I would have to look at the second option.

if a team can be constructed so that even without submitting an export with lineups and depth charts and pitching rotations they can finish 17 games ahead in their conference, that means something is wrong. if that's the case we could simply make this an offseason only league, where we award a championship to whichever team has the highest rated players at the end of free agency. what would be the point then of playing out a season? why bother with setting lineups and strategy sliders? ultimately talent trumps all, but managing a lineup to eek out the most from your players, knowing when to run and pull a pitcher - that adds/substracts wins to your total.

17 games better than the next best team? c'mon, Hartford is good, but i don't think anyone else in the league has been alseep at the wheel all season, we've all added to our rosters. if it was a case of Hartford being the only active owner, sure, i'd accept that. but his team has finished in double digit leads the last few seasons and i'm just not seeing how the rest of the teams in my conference are just that bad.

i've moved on, anyway.

[Tasan]

Can someone please comment on my rules question? Pretty please?

[muns]

wow, Im not even sure where to start..

First I want to appologize for causing the shit storm that I have caused.

On Friday I was planning on exporting after work, I get off at 4:30. However we had a suicide attempt on campus, so I had to stay and deal with that. Yes it was a total mess, but we did save the life.

Then straight from that I had to go coach, because it was our homecoming weekend, and On friday we do a big kickoff with Midnight Madness.

So I was unable to get to my computer to export. I again appologize. That is the only sim I have missed here ever (when I havent been on vacation).

When I tired to get on the net saturday, it seems my campus virus protection is blocking my brower from connecting to the net, so I wasnt able to get on here to post to let you guys know my situation.

On a whim on Sunday I decided to see if I could download the file and I was able too. So i did send in instructions for the classic sim.

So thats where I was and what happened. Until I can get our tech guys to come take a look at my computer I wont be able to post from home, but i should still be able to send in my files.

Im pretty busy at work at the moment so I cant comment on the rest of the stuff thats been said but hopefully ill be able to throw my 2 cents in here during the afternoon.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by muns

wow, Im not even sure where to start..

First I want to appologize for causing the shit storm that I have caused.

On Friday I was planning on exporting after work, I get off at 4:30. However we had a suicide attempt on campus, so I had to stay and deal with that. Yes it was a total mess, but we did save the life.

Then straight from that I had to go coach, because it was our homecoming weekend, and On friday we do a big kickoff with Midnight Madness.

So I was unable to get to my computer to export. I again appologize. That is the only sim I have missed here ever (when I havent been on vacation).

When I tired to get on the net saturday, it seems my campus virus protection is blocking my brower from connecting to the net, so I wasnt able to get on here to post to let you guys know my situation.

On a whim on Sunday I decided to see if I could download the file and I was able too. So i did send in instructions for the classic sim.

So thats where I was and what happened. Until I can get our tech guys to come take a look at my computer I wont be able to post from home, but i should still be able to send in my files.

Im pretty busy at work at the moment so I cant comment on the rest of the stuff thats been said but hopefully ill be able to throw my 2 cents in here during the afternoon.

No problem at all, no one was criticizing you at all. I think mostly people were frustrated that a team so good as yours could beat them on autopilot and people mainly were expressing opinions on either side of the question if expanding the playoffs might get more people interested each season. Otherwise some might mentally check out for a month when a strong team such as yours comes around.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Alan T

No problem at all, no one was criticizing you at all. I think mostly people were frustrated that a team so good as yours could beat them on autopilot and people mainly were expressing opinions on either side of the question if expanding the playoffs might get more people interested each season. Otherwise some might mentally check out for a month when a strong team such as yours comes around.

exactly. i have no prob with muns missing an export (heck, i only get in about 3 exports a week myself). in fact, i actually prefer he misses as many exports as possible. the problem is when a team can be so uber that there's no repurcussions for missing their export. when i miss some key FA stages i expect to miss out on important free agents. when i miss the draft file i expect to have another OF drafted for me instead of another position i need. if i miss the season sim, then i expect to come in last or perform horribly. not trounce the rest of the league by 17 games. that's a game issue and a league issue. no on has a prob with muns though.

[muns]

I think the easiest way for me to throw my 2 cents in is to just quote some posts and respond to that. Its gonna be a lil jumpy as I am supposed to be in another meeting here soon, but just wanted to throw it out there

[muns]

Originally Posted by Tasan

I like muns, but I hate the 'Pooners......hate 'em.....on friggin autopilot....

love the spunk and always talking trash, Keeping me honest Tasan

[Tasan]

Well if you can view sigs, you'll notice my little tribute there as well ;- )

[muns]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

No.

The only reason St. Louis was a bad dynasty was because the team was composed before the majority of the people who joined in '64 were around. So it was like an unfair advantage to have that much talent comprised together. The dynasties we have besides them -- Valdosta, Colorado and Hartford -- were all home grown and built with specific plans in mind. muns had a strategy and he went 16 seasons without a playoff appearance and had the longest tenure here of anyone (gstelmack left before he had a chance to break his streak) who never had a postseason appearance.

So...when he had that fire sale and got rid of all of those guys, he did a hell of a job using the system in place to build a team that would dominate. It was pure genius, especially assembling the pitching. He made bold moves, brazen signings of prospects that none of us were willing to sink money into and frankly, his work has paid off.

They do need a few more titles to get into the ranks of say, Colorado as the dominant team of the RL. But make no mistake, they still have the goods to win in that league for another half decade or more. So...yeah, I think when it's all said and done, 'Pooner nation will be truly one of the names that rolls off the tongue in terms of league dynasties to emulate.

I just tip my cap to what he managed to do. Alan in Valdosta, Chief in Colorado and me in..well...you know, everywhere.

It's a matter of reading the way the trends are going, coming up with a gameplan to build a franchise around that and then making your move when your time comes. It's a great thing. There are SO many different ways to win here, that it makes it exciting and no season is the same as the last one.

DC, thanks for the compliments, coming from you and what you have been able to accomplish here it means something.

I do want to address that it took me 16 loosing seasons to get anywhere in this league. What I mean by loosing is 3rd and 4th place finishes when I was trying to win, and then in total rebuild mode I finished in dead last one year.

So ive been there and done that. I didnt spend wildly on free agents and that was tough knowing if I did id be loosing development time for young guys. I could have easily been in 3rd and 4th place for those 16 years.

When I chose to rebuild there were 3 strong teams in the RL that I was constantly finishing up behind. DC's squad, Colorado and Chiefs run, and then Boston who was always strong they just couldnt ever put it together.

I take exception to HA'S comments. I didnt choose to say we as a league need to do this or we as a league need to do that, I made the choice to say screw it, they are better than me, im not going to beat them at this point, lets do a total rebuild job take my lumps, and then see where the chips fall 5 years later......

Well looking back at it now 8-10 years later I think it was a good choice....

I didnt hit my target of when Id be "good" but it did eventually happen and it was a work in progress and it was fun.

I took it as a challenge.... It was just like when I beat Alan for my first classic win (and I still to this day say he got hosed, which is why im not for playoff expansion like I was at first) however, I did beat the best. Point blank i did it and I didnt want it handed to me, I wanted to do it myself.

Im not some master at this, im just like everyone else here. I just decided to rebuild at the correct time, and went after young guys that people didnt want to spend their cap on and it has seemed to work out. DC said it best in the post above mine. Its about being smart about who is good, reading trends in the game, and taking minimal risk with your cap.

It took me 16 seasons to put it together, so when someone is saying I cant win and its only been 4 its tough for me to sit here and feel for them..

Im not trying to be an ass or be cocky or whatever it is you could make a case for, im just trying to give my 2 cents on how it see stuff.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I do think the way muns did it is going to be harder now. The excess cash he was able to put to good use signing prospects, because he wasn't spending up to the cap. And the VL dumped some of its best prospects into the pool while he was doing this. Since both of these advantages (excess cash, VL talent push) will now be gone, it will be much more difficult.

All that said, yes, he did suffer, and he did do a heck of a job in making moves and picking up the right prospects.

Again, thanks for the kind comments Chief.

I dont think its gonna be harder however... Just dont spent 15 mil on guys that are 30-34 just cause you have 15 mil laying around. Pick and choose wisely.

Yes I did get a boost in the VL players, however I only nabbed one of those guys who is now on Rios team (i cant belive i forget his name a starting pitcher) that was a super stud. Everybody else was normal cash range 600k-1 mil.

Excess cash doesnt have anything to do with what I did, because I wasnt cutting guys at that point, so everyone can do exactly what I did now and in the future.

Im actually looking forward to see if anyone does try that out. My contribution to ootp

[muns]

Originally Posted by kaosfere

Yeah, the CL has toughened up a lot even in the time I've been here. I'm pretty sure this team I have now would have given Alan a solid challenge for #1 in 72 or 74. As it is, I'm struggling for thirdish.

Def agree. I think the amount of quality GM'S we have here is pretty damn good!