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#1 | ||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)
From the precipice of a historic Israeli-Saudi-US deal to a frakking Israeli-Hamas war.
Creating this dedicated thread for the conflict. About 4 pages of original posts found in the Politics thread starting below ... World Politics - Page 5 - Front Office Football Central Couple live feeds. Live Webcams From Gaza | Conflict Zone âš* | Palestine Israel Gaza Strip - YouTube LIVE Multi-Cam: Views from Israel and Gaza amid ongoing fighting - YouTube . Last edited by Edward64 : 10-12-2023 at 07:18 AM. |
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#2 |
World Champion Mis-speller
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Covington, Ga.
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I was going to either do this or suggest this myself. It needs its own thread.
I was just trying to describe what was going on to my wife, because she really didn't know anything (and I mean she didn't know what Gaza was). She said she has been hearing people talk about this at work and she just couldn't understand it. I told her "Don't worry. Almost know one does." |
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#3 | ||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Blinken is going to have one busy trip. He's earning his pay for sure.
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Also ... Quote:
Last edited by Edward64 : 10-12-2023 at 12:49 PM. |
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#4 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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#5 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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It's a complex topic but brief summary. Palestinians are essentially broken off into 2 areas.
West Bank - An Israeli military controlled police state since the 60's. Think North Korea but the government has more resources at their disposal. There are different enclaves within it and Israel routinely sets up illegal settlements by force in the area. This area is run by Fatah, the more moderate party. They hate Hamas and would be most willing to work on diplomatic solutions. Gaza - You've heard the phrase open air prison and that's probably the best way to describe it. It's a 25 mile strip where 2.3 million people live that cannot leave. All essentials (electricity, food, supplies) are at the whim of the Israeli government as they have a blockade. There is not clean drinking water for most. Very few schools or medical services. It's about as brutal place as you can imagine. Gets bombed regularly and is run mostly by an extremist group called Hamas. That leads us to now. The current Israeli regime is very far-right and does not support a 2-state solution. So they made the decision to form a wedge between Fatah and Hamas. They've propped up Hamas for years which has allowed them to amass some weapons. The theory is that if your main enemy is the extremist group, there won't be pressure for a 2-state solution. This plan has backfired spectacularly. Now it's important to mention that this attack is unprecedented. Hamas has had its attacks but they rarely advance into Israeli territory and rarely lead to this kind of death toll. The fact they were able to overrun so many military outposts and take so many hostages has never happened before. So that's kind of where we're at. It's unchartered territory. Israel had mostly been fine with a few minor terrorist attacks each year if it meant they could keep their ethnostate and continue to encroach on lands. But the death toll from this is so staggering, that likely changes everything. Their focus will likely move from the West Bank to Gaza for now. That leads us to these questions that no one has an answer to: 1) Does Netanyahu survive this? Public polls blame him for the failure and his strategy backfired. But he's also made strides in weakening the democratic process in the country so he can be a sort of dictator. Will public pressure force him out or does he dig in? 2) What happens with Gaza? It seems you can't just imprison millions on a small strip of land without some repercussions to citizens elsewhere. 3) Does the conflict expand? Hezbollah could get involved from Lebanon, although I think they'd like to avoid it. Will Iran be dragged into this to cover for the failures of the Israeli intelligence? Do other arab countries gain confidence now that Israel's intelligence and defense has not been as great as people assumed (similar to what we've seen with Russia). |
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#6 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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But why? What is the conflict over this strip of land? Why can't the people just leave? Is it about the people or the land? DOes the land hold some sort of religious significance that they both want? Or is it a racial thing?
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#7 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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They can't leave because Gaza is surrounded by a huge heavily fortified wall. Those that come close to it get shot. One of the creepiest parts is that most of Gaza has never actually seen an Israeli in person in their life.
The land is mostly worthless. It's been bombed for decades and the Israelis gave up on it almost 20 years ago. It's only important strategically for Israel's desire to be a Jewish ethnostate (something Netanyahu has talked openly about). This stretch of land can act as a prison to keep undesirables out. And obviously, residents of Gaza don't want to be imprisoned and want freedom to leave, have better living conditions, and return to their homes. The land that Israel actually wants is the West Bank. They've been slowly annexing portions and at some point, a big clash will occur. That's been where their focus has been which is why this caught the country so off guard. |
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#8 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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#9 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I keep seeing news clips and notes of so and so country or so and so organization "standing with palestine". Can you separate Palestine from Hamas?
Are there civilian palestines? |
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#10 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I know nothing about the middle east because I spent all my history classes memorizing ridiculous civil war generals
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#11 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Okay I gotta ask...if this is a prison that no one can leave, then why are were there so many americans and other nationalities there?
How is anyone allowed in if no one is allowed to leave? IS it the hotel California? is that it? |
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#12 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Americans and other nationalities are not traveling to Gaza. It is nearly impossible to gain entry. Last edited by RainMaker : 10-13-2023 at 03:21 AM. |
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#13 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
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I am not sure if this is the appropriate thread for this. Since we had discussed China giving money to Iran and this is talking about Iran funding Hamas, there is a connection.
'They're opportunistic and adaptive': How Hamas is using cryptocurrency to raise funds | CNN I'm old and don't know much about crypto other than having $53.16 worth of Bitcoin in Cash app because my son's friend's uncle want to give him Bitcoin for helping them out. I do know that one of the appeals of crypto was being able to secretly passing money around and hide from government eyes. We had to know that we were creating a easier way for the terrorists and their supporters to hide how they are funded from the people we want to stop them right?
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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#14 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Quote:
I think if you read the Wikipedia articles for Gaza and the West Bank, and how they came to be under Israeli control, you'll know more than most people about it. And the back and forth editing over the years created a fairly-factual depiction of events and the current state of things. |
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#15 | |||||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
It's all of the above. But also includes fair amounts of poor judgement by leadership; third parties doing war/conflict by proxy; making themselves unwelcome (see Jordanian Civil War); land being part of their ancestry and not just religious; ME countries not wanting to take in Palestinians and the financial/social impact etc. Quote:
See below wsj link. Paywall so can't provide any details beyond the search results. My guess is they are dual citizens or aid workers, and was able to travel there. I'd guess there are a bunch of other nationalities there for same reason. U.S. Estimates Up to 600 Americans in Gaza Quote:
Sure people are allowed to leave Gaza pre-war. It's not Hotel California. But it is maybe a Motel 6 as it's very difficult, especially for those without resources. See below. From other articles, you generally have to get visas and that's difficult as you may have to travel to Israel or into Egypt (note below that Egypt also plays a role here). My guess is the more money you have the easier it is. Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’ at 15 | Human Rights Watch Quote:
Nope but my guess is he got inspiration from it (or by watching "World War Z") Quote:
I view Palestine as West Bank (controlled by Fatah) and Gaza Strip (controlled by the more extremist Hamas). So yeah, you can separate Palestinians from Hamas. Unfortunately, I do believe 99% of Palestinians have a hatred for Israelis but in differing degrees, scale & context. It's understandable that even Palestinians, who do not support Hamas, still have deep resentment against Israel. Last edited by Edward64 : 10-13-2023 at 06:45 AM. |
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#16 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Looked up the Palestinian diaspora ...
The LATAM countries stuck out. Have to read more on why and how they've got so many Palestinians. Palestinian diaspora - Wikipedia Quote:
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#17 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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eeeeeek Time Square is full of protesters on both sides yuk.
HEre's a fun encounter Quote:
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#18 | |||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Good to see freedom of speech at work.
Names and faces of Harvard students linked to an anti-Israel statement were plastered on mobile billboards and online sites | CNN Business Quote:
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My wife and I were discussing Harvard and that now unemployed NYU grad. Freedom of speech but not freedom of speech without repercussions. She mentioned what our County came out with below. Wondering why our County thought it was important to come out with their irrelevant opinion. https://www.forsythco.com/News/forsy...acks-in-israel Quote:
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#19 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Quote:
Just to help make a comparison, Gaza is ~139 square miles and Chicago is ~237 square miles. Metro Chicago population is ~9.5M. Of course, Gaza doesn't have anything near the kind of modern housing stock that a city like Chicago has. The closest size comparison to a major U.S. city is Philadelphia, which is ~134 square miles, with a metro population of 1.6M. |
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#20 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Probably not very enlightened of me that my first instinct is to think "Look, if you want to fight about this -- fine. Just don't do it here. Do it over there."
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#21 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
lol.....rite? I'm tryin to go see Murder on the Orient Express and Wicked... ![]() Last edited by CrimsonFox : 10-13-2023 at 08:00 AM. |
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#22 |
College Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The Dirty
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I'm still confused, is the best option to just open the border and tell everyone in Gaza that they can now live in Israel, a state that they do not want to exist? Everyone in the middle east has had an opportunity to help the people in Gaza and all have chosen to decline, especially Egypt (and partly Jordan). When Israel was created in 1948 (you know, where the Jews already lived), there were a lot of chances for peace that all arab states rejected. They would rather their people die than grant Jews a homeland.
So while you repeatedly bash the "ethnostate" of Israel (your anti-semitic comments notwithstanding), there is more than enough blame to go around in that area. Let's not forget Iran that also wants to wage war with Israel but prefers to arm Gaza children instead. There is a 2-state solution, but the other party (Hamas) does not want that. They want Jews wiped from the planet and there is nothing that the West or Israel can offer them. I mean, if Al Qaeda took over Canada and Mexico, outnumbered us, and wanted to wipe us from the planet, would we grant them open borders?
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Commish of the United Baseball League (OOTP 6.5) |
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#23 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Mmm, I'm not quite sure...
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#24 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Dec 2002
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You might want to google "Al Nakba" because you're repeating the Florida public school version of history here.
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#25 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
A more apt comparison would be Al-Qaeda (guessing you just found the worst group of brown people you could think of?) taking over 80% of America. Americans get stuffed into the remaining 20% and stripped of their rights, movement heavily restricted, resources rationed, and bombed/shot regularly. Then Al-Qaeda says "you can keep 15%" under a bunch of conditions like giving giving up a military, regular inspections, not being able to return to your home, etc. I have a feeling that the country that had violent outbursts over having to wear a mask at Target would probably not find this suitable. |
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#26 |
College Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The Dirty
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Which part, the creation of the state or the fact that Jews had been fleeing to the area for decades before that? Look, there is no great solution here and I hate settlements and do not support that part of the government. But I do support their right to exist and allowing free reign of Hamas in the region is counter to that. I do not think people in Gaza support a 2-state solution either, so I'm not sure what else there is to do there. Nobody seems to want to get involved other than say which side they stand with, leaving few solutions. If Hamas were disband and Israel were to rebuild Gaza and allow it to be autonomous, would that be enough for folks? Probably not. What responsibilities do Egypt and Jordan carry?
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Commish of the United Baseball League (OOTP 6.5) |
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#27 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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But can like all of the people just be refugees and just get the hell out of the entire area/country etc and like go to europe and afirca and canada and us?
Can't there just be a solution to just....EVERYBODY LEAVE THAT AREA ? There can't be anyone that actually wants to live there anymore |
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#28 | ||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Pretty sure Jordan is going to say non-Jordanian Palestinians are bad guests and won't invite them back. Like that college roommate that needed a temporary place to crash but ended up ordering a subscription to Playboy to your address. Quote:
Oh, forget Lebanon also ... Quote:
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#29 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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I really think it's a good idea just like....nobody help either side. Like DON'T GIVE ANYBODY ANY MORE WEAPONS.
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#30 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PDX
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Quote:
They are under sea, air and land blockade, from both Israel and Egypt, which control their entire border. tl;dr: no
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Last edited by thesloppy : Today at 05:35 PM. |
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#31 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Maryland
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Quote:
Eh, the phrasing made it sound like a) most Jews lived there (and had for ages) b) Jews were the area's primary occupants Yes, they had been fleeing there and yes there was a declaration, but (and I'll credit you as not meaning it that way) the line read like "Hey, what's the problem? These guys were obviously here already."
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#32 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
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Quote:
Just like everyone else, the county knows that they are better off stating their position and dealing with whatever comes from that as opposed to staying silent and having said position defined for you. Silence in this case seems to mean that not only do you not stand with Israel without qualification to use the phrase that Brian in the other thread. it could also be seen as you are actively supporting Hamas.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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#33 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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More targeting of journalists.
Israeli shelling along Lebanon border kills 1 journalist, wounds 6 | AP News |
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#34 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Telling people to evacuate and then targeting them is some sinister shit.
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#35 | |||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Nice it's a solid majority of 65%. Could be higher but all things considered on the state of the union, not too shabby.
Access to this page has been denied Quote:
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Last edited by Edward64 : 10-13-2023 at 07:38 PM. |
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#36 |
World Champion Mis-speller
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Covington, Ga.
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Biden's popularity is so low that if he personally cured cancer, 52% would be unhappy about it.
Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk |
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#37 | ||||||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Nice, balanced position & requests by the Progressives. Nice contrast to the DSA extremists.
‘We are deeply concerned’ – Progressive lawmakers make plea to Biden ahead of Israel’s Gaza campaign - POLITICO Quote:
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Democratic Socialists of America facing an internal reckoning on Israel - POLITICO Quote:
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#38 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Still enjoying Bill Maher. Good discussion on Israeli-Hamas war. He's got a former Bernie guy and an Israeli guy going back and forth on stuff.
Some comic relief in there, didn't know this was a thing (see first video at 6:35). Also on the Iranian $6B (see second video at 6:25) and currently my favorite Republican Nikki Haley (see second video at 9:20) Last edited by Edward64 : 10-14-2023 at 09:59 AM. |
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#39 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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jesus israel is using white phosphorus in areas with civilians.
bad mojo still stand with them? Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon | Human Rights Watch |
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#40 | |
World Champion Mis-speller
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Covington, Ga.
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Quote:
For them to exist? Yes. |
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#41 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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If they intentionally used it against civilians, absolutely bad. But I'll wait for more reports to confirm either way.
Access Denied Quote:
Last edited by Edward64 : 10-14-2023 at 10:27 AM. |
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#42 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
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Many things fascinate me about this war. How it is being reported (mainstream and non mainstream on both sides of the conflict) and how the public reacts to that reporting might be the most fascinating. I am not emotionally attached on either side of this issue but it is giving me a better understanding of what I may or may not sound like when I am emotionally attached to a side of an issue.
__________________
"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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#43 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
yeah i know, right? There have been people just JUPMING to a side immediately and demanding fealty to a side and I'm like still trying to put all the pieces together so that ANYTHING about it makes sense. |
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#44 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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#45 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Not only that, but how some are very quick to question every Israel action while forgetting (or giving a free pass on) many of America's responses as part of it's 20-year war on terror following 9/11. |
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#46 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Question of the day: If HAMAS are Palestinians...but different from the Palestinians on the west bank ...like those Palestinians are the good ones and Hamas are just bad apples...then where are the palestinian statements condemning the attacks? I'm seeing the opposite...I'm seeing protests and such. I'm seeing Extreme nationism by...well both Palestine and Israel. But no condemnation of the act.
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#47 |
Coordinator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Israeli-Hamas War (Oct 2023)
I think the moderates feel stuck
They “know what Hamas did was bad” but they cannot allow the question of Israel existing and second classing them slide either. They will, on Facebook, throw out the mandatory “All killing is bad” but that’s just a throw away to check the box. They have to always keep the narrative of their treatment front and center and Btw My guess is every oppressed people do the same thing. Humans Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL Last edited by Flasch186 : 10-14-2023 at 05:35 PM. |
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#48 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
They were busy being killed.
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#49 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: VA
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Nova music festival: How a rave turned into a frenzied massacre
Pretty in-depth look at when the Palestinians decided to conduct target practice on the music festival.
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Chicago Eagles 2 time ZFL champions We're "rebuilding" |
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#50 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
My take, take it FWIW. Generalizing the 3 groups in Palestine ... 1) In Gaza, there are extremist Hamas & "normal" Palestinians 2) In West Bank, there are less extremist Fatah & "normal" Palestinians 3) Hamas and Fatah hate each other. Hamas killed & ejected Fatah from Gaza around 2006-2007. 4) Fatah is moving on with governing the parts of West Bank they control, they are less confrontational with Israel. Hamas, arguably, would win a popular election over Fatah (I've seen 52%-57%). In other words, Fatah is relatively weak in the court of popular opinion. 5) Hamas, Fatah, and 90% of "normals" are antisemitic. Differing levels for sure but even for "normals", it's still pretty high. Not making a statement if this is right or wrong for the "normals", just saying it's pretty much a sad reality due to history & circumstances. To answer your question specifically ... The reason why there is little/no condemnation by the "normals" for the attacks is because they support it to a certain level. Not saying they support the supposed (beheading) of babies, but my guess is little problem with killing Israeli soldiers or adult settlers. Again, looking from "both sides", it is understandable "normal" Palestinians are PO'd at the Israelis. The reason why Fatah does not condemn it is because they'll lose even more popular support (see #4 above). The best they can do is lukewarm support the attacks. (And if I was them, I'd give the Israelis as much intel on Hamas as I could) Last edited by Edward64 : 10-14-2023 at 11:06 PM. |
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