WW XCIV Group Therapy - Game Over! - Page 70

hoopsguy · 05-21-2009, 07:32 PM

Danny, the problem is that the villages can't really offer information that they have and neither side can make fake reveals because they only people allowed to act like they have a role is the BG/Seer/Duke.

Which really tightens the screws, forcing a lot of "I can't say why I believe that". I get the feeling you wanted us to make up stuff that was in the thread as a method to justify information that we had but how does that make for a better game?

So there was vote analysis and a whole lot of gnashing of teeth, likely on both sides.

Lathum · 05-21-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

The problem with this is all the regular werewolf roles were public roles. Everyone else was supposed to be playing as a vanilla villager, it just happened you would have extra information to work with. Instead everytime someone with a hidden role was questioned they fell back onto using their role as a vice for escaping suspicion. I made the mistake of thinking people would not do that, so in that regard the mechanic was not a good one to use.

Well people need a reason to show why they did what they did. People are going to vote in a certain way based on their role and the information that comes with it.

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I guess the votes were hidden.

Basicly I wanted to get a run on anyone and felt PB would be a good candidate. I had a +3 added on to me.

I was hoping the wolves would come for me at night and I would maybe identify one but that never happened.

Ah, well that's crazy. I would have been sure of you a while back if I had seen any votes. I eventually came around when nobody made a hint that you were faking and they were the risk taker.

Alan T · 05-21-2009, 07:32 PM

Just to make sure, all of the needies love me still right?

I didn't reveal anything about my role.. I assume you kill the ones you love the most.. right?

PackerFanatic · 05-21-2009, 07:34 PM

And it should be known that we really had no idea who the seer was - we just got pretty lucky with Martin.

Danny · 05-21-2009, 07:34 PM

I agree and and I would not use this mechanic again. I may not run a game again for that matter (at least for a while). Still, everyone really should have tried to play under the mechanic laid out even if it meant not liking it and complaining to me after the game.

hoopsguy · 05-21-2009, 07:34 PM

Huh - go figure.

PackerFanatic · 05-21-2009, 07:35 PM

I still had fun in the game, Danny, despite that, and I still think you ran a great game - so thanks for that

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Which really tightens the screws, forcing a lot of "I can't say why I believe that". I get the feeling you wanted us to make up stuff that was in the thread as a method to justify information that we had but how does that make for a better game?

Yes, this is how I felt. I didn't feel it made any sense to dredge up nonsense from the thread to justify a vote. I'd basically be flashing a Wolf sign if I did that.

The "I can't say why I believe that," was all we could do, and that could do nothing but sponsor further discussion among the rest about what that role could be. That was the biggest problem I think, how can we stop the village from debating what someone's role might be? If they can't do that, there's no way to, for example, consider somene's faking.

Abe Sargent · 05-21-2009, 07:35 PM

I think, in retrospect, I should have used my role like a Night One scan and then hinted at being the seer on Day Two with a successful Night One scan of BK, would have been a lot easier for me.

Chief Rum · 05-21-2009, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

And it should be known that we really had no idea who the seer was - we just got pretty lucky with Martin.

lol...don't worry, we didn't have a flippin' clue either.

Abe Sargent · 05-21-2009, 07:36 PM

I thought the game was interesting.

Alan T · 05-21-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

lol...don't worry, we didn't have a flippin' clue either.

I thought it was Autumn when I died. I thought I played a way that day to protect Autumn and make the wolves come after me... I guess I was wrong about that.

Danny · 05-21-2009, 07:37 PM

To be fair, the wolves followed the intent of the game to the letter and ended up punished for it. I feel really bad about that because they played the superior game..

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

I agree and and I would not use this mechanic again. I may not run a game again for that matter (at least for a while). Still, everyone really should have tried to play under the mechanic laid out even if it meant not liking it and complaining to me after the game.

I apologize again if I was over the line. I tried my best and assumed you'd PM me if I had strayed, as it seemed you had done that with others.

Passacaglia · 05-21-2009, 07:37 PM

Man. I never revealed anything about my role, and I was allowed to!

PackerFanatic · 05-21-2009, 07:38 PM

Now we can just enjoy the Memorial Day weekend and not worry about werewolf (not that I would hope people would anyway, haha)

Let's all shake hands and call it a day - until the next game of course

Alan T · 05-21-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Man. I never revealed anything about my role, and I was allowed to!

MartinD too!

Passacaglia · 05-21-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Man. I never revealed anything about my role, and I was allowed to!

Heh, but then again, neither did clap and Martin. Pretty funny.

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I think, in retrospect, I should have used my role like a Night One scan and then hinted at being the seer on Day Two with a successful Night One scan of BK, would have been a lot easier for me.

But see, it sounds like this wouldn't have been legal either. It seems all you could do is know that BK is good and use that internally.

What would a person do when they publish a trust list that is based on their inside information?

hoopsguy · 05-21-2009, 07:39 PM

So who did MartinD scan each night?

Tyrith · 05-21-2009, 07:39 PM

I agree that this concept was not a good idea, although I understand why it was tried. But it was pretty clear from the early going that this was going to be a mess. The same thing came up in the angels and demons game when I was Gabriel and knew who Lucifer was - it's just too hard to talk around such an obvious, gaping hole and not leave loose ends.

It's a shame it ended like this, because for all the frustration it was a very, very good game - the wolves played extremely well, most of the villagers had no idea what to do, even after today.

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:39 PM

I thought someone, I think it was Chief or Hoops? was the seer, the day they voted Clap. That's why I followed them, lol

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:41 PM

I agree, the wolves did very well at staying UTR and having no damning voting records at all, that was amazing.

So Danny, for example, did you want Chief and Hoops to not come out at any point and say they trusted each other? Or to say they do but simply give some made up evidence for why?

Abe Sargent · 05-21-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

But see, it sounds like this wouldn't have been legal either. It seems all you could do is know that BK is good and use that internally.

What would a person do when they publish a trust list that is based on their inside information?

I would do something like this:

Day Two Trust List:

Amazingly Trustworthy: BK
Normal: Everyone else

Danny · 05-21-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

So who did MartinD scan each night?

In order, Telle, Hoopsguy, Barkeep and Claphamsa

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:42 PM

All right, well, I had a really good time, Danny and thought it was a fun game, for what that's worth. It's the only villager win I've ever been a part of, and I'll take that even if it's maybe tainted.

Lathum · 05-21-2009, 07:42 PM

I enjoyed the game but it was a tough work around.

I made my move day 2 and when everyone questions me what am I supposed to do?

FWIW I think the wolves played a great game.

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:43 PM

Wow, so Martin had Telle pegged all that time? And then voted EF and Saldana? That's weird.

Telle · 05-21-2009, 07:43 PM

So he knew about me from Night 1? And let me last that long? Wow.

Danny · 05-21-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

I agree, the wolves did very well at staying UTR and having no damning voting records at all, that was amazing.

So Danny, for example, did you want Chief and Hoops to not come out at any point and say they trusted each other? Or to say they do but simply give some made up evidence for why?

I wanted it to be based upon gameplay (votes etc). This mechanic did not work well like I said and if someone uses something similar in the future, I will make sure they don't

Abe Sargent · 05-21-2009, 07:44 PM

Sometimes, if I hit on Night One, I'm tempted to try and get a few more scans before revealing too. I might drop a hint in the thread just in case, but I suck at hints, so.

EagleFan · 05-21-2009, 07:45 PM

Good game all.

Danny, I liked the game and the effort you put into getting creative with it. With that said I think we had a bit of an uphill battle with all the roles that were out there. One thing that could have helped is if the leader/follower role would have been a 2 for 1 nk/lynch.

PackerFanatic · 05-21-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Good game all.

Danny, I liked the game and the effort you put into getting creative with it. With that said I think we had a bit of an uphill battle with all the roles that were out there. One thing that could have helped is if the leader/follower role would have been a 2 for 1 nk/lynch.

Had we killed Hoops, it would have been 2 for 1 (CR would have gone down too)

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:47 PM

Yeah, you guys came really close today, if you had hit Hoops. I was worried that he was the Leader.

Lathum · 05-21-2009, 07:48 PM

So Danny, did your PM box get blown up like I said it would?

Lathum · 05-21-2009, 07:48 PM

Wolves, why criticize me 2 times in a row?

Barkeep49 · 05-21-2009, 07:49 PM

I'll just let it be known that in my game not only will you be able to reveal your roles, you'll be encouraged to reveal roles that aren't yours.

Chief Rum · 05-21-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

I wanted it to be based upon gameplay (votes etc). This mechanic did not work well like I said and if someone uses something similar in the future, I will make sure they don't

Don't knock yourself up, Danny, and don't let it scare you away from running a game.

I did this exact sorta thing last year in the Political game with the bill writing. I mean, thinking about now, holy crap, I was going to let the crazies run the insane asylum? I set myself up to having to try to set parameters around what they could do, which, let's face it, if I was going to do that, I might as well just put the rules in stone and move forward.

It was a fun idea in theory--not so great in practice. This probably falls into that same category.

Incidentally, I also think Pass and Abe put themselves in difficult positions as game GMs with the mechanics they used. I love the ambitious ideas, but it just goes to show how hard it is to nail one of these.

Looking back now, I think of the one great game I feel I ran, The Cubicle, and I thank my lucky stars that one went right.

EagleFan · 05-21-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Wolves, why criticize me 2 times in a row?

I wanted you ctiticized the first night too...

PackerFanatic · 05-21-2009, 07:52 PM

I thought the Political game was fun and interesting. I commend all the guys that run games here. I am sure any one of us could easily just run a typical Werewolf game, but no one does that - everyone tries to mix it up and use the werewolf under the surface, but the stuff is nothing NEAR Werewolf (look at Abe's game...well, maybe that wasn't quite WW, but still, hehe)

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:53 PM

One last comment about the mechanic as I go back and look at it. I think this would work really well if not all the villagers had a role. I think that was the Achilles Heel, that we knew everybody had one. If it was only a few and only discovered on death that would be a nice twist I think. There wouldn't be all this pressure from everyone to give up the details of your role.

Lathum · 05-21-2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I wanted you ctiticized the first night too...

that actually would have changed things alot because I wouldn't have been able to come out guns blazing at PB

Alan T · 05-21-2009, 07:54 PM

Speaking of night one, what happened night one.. with no kill, no conversion..

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:55 PM

oh yeah, did we get a bodyguard block?

Telle · 05-21-2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

Speaking of night one, what happened night one.. with no kill, no conversion..

BG block on my attempted kill on Barkeep.

Autumn · 05-21-2009, 07:56 PM

Did you guys assume Abe/BK were Lovers?

Chief Rum · 05-21-2009, 07:57 PM

I don't think anyone said, so I'll ask again (cuz I am really curious).

I thought it would not be difficult to deduce some sort of relationships between hoops and I that was "Lovers-esque".

Why didn't you guys try to NK one of us?

EagleFan · 05-21-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

Did you guys assume Abe/BK were Lovers?

I always assume Lathum/saldana are...

claphamsa · 05-21-2009, 07:58 PM

ok, im a shitty BG and i dont like begin the BG lame

05-21-2009, 07:32 PM	#3454
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Just to make sure, all of the needies love me still right? I didn't reveal anything about my role.. I assume you kill the ones you love the most.. right? __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

05-21-2009, 07:34 PM	#3455
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	And it should be known that we really had no idea who the seer was - we just got pretty lucky with Martin. __________________ Commissioner of the RNFL

05-21-2009, 07:35 PM	#3458
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	I still had fun in the game, Danny, despite that, and I still think you ran a great game - so thanks for that __________________ Commissioner of the RNFL

05-21-2009, 07:35 PM	#3460
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	I think, in retrospect, I should have used my role like a Night One scan and then hinted at being the seer on Day Two with a successful Night One scan of BK, would have been a lot easier for me. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

05-21-2009, 07:36 PM	#3462
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	I thought the game was interesting. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

05-21-2009, 07:32 PM	#3451
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Danny, the problem is that the villages can't really offer information that they have and neither side can make fake reveals because they only people allowed to act like they have a role is the BG/Seer/Duke. Which really tightens the screws, forcing a lot of "I can't say why I believe that". I get the feeling you wanted us to make up stuff that was in the thread as a method to justify information that we had but how does that make for a better game? So there was vote analysis and a whole lot of gnashing of teeth, likely on both sides.

05-21-2009, 07:34 PM	#3456
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	I agree and and I would not use this mechanic again. I may not run a game again for that matter (at least for a while). Still, everyone really should have tried to play under the mechanic laid out even if it meant not liking it and complaining to me after the game.

05-21-2009, 07:34 PM	#3457
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Huh - go figure.

05-21-2009, 07:37 PM	#3464
Danny Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	To be fair, the wolves followed the intent of the game to the letter and ended up punished for it. I feel really bad about that because they played the superior game..

05-21-2009, 07:37 PM	#3466
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Man. I never revealed anything about my role, and I was allowed to!

05-21-2009, 07:38 PM	#3467
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	Now we can just enjoy the Memorial Day weekend and not worry about werewolf (not that I would hope people would anyway, haha) Let's all shake hands and call it a day - until the next game of course __________________ Commissioner of the RNFL

05-21-2009, 07:39 PM	#3471
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	So who did MartinD scan each night?

05-21-2009, 07:39 PM	#3472
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	I agree that this concept was not a good idea, although I understand why it was tried. But it was pretty clear from the early going that this was going to be a mess. The same thing came up in the angels and demons game when I was Gabriel and knew who Lucifer was - it's just too hard to talk around such an obvious, gaping hole and not leave loose ends. It's a shame it ended like this, because for all the frustration it was a very, very good game - the wolves played extremely well, most of the villagers had no idea what to do, even after today.

05-21-2009, 07:39 PM	#3473
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I thought someone, I think it was Chief or Hoops? was the seer, the day they voted Clap. That's why I followed them, lol

05-21-2009, 07:41 PM	#3474
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I agree, the wolves did very well at staying UTR and having no damning voting records at all, that was amazing. So Danny, for example, did you want Chief and Hoops to not come out at any point and say they trusted each other? Or to say they do but simply give some made up evidence for why?

05-21-2009, 07:42 PM	#3477
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	All right, well, I had a really good time, Danny and thought it was a fun game, for what that's worth. It's the only villager win I've ever been a part of, and I'll take that even if it's maybe tainted.

05-21-2009, 07:42 PM	#3478
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I enjoyed the game but it was a tough work around. I made my move day 2 and when everyone questions me what am I supposed to do? FWIW I think the wolves played a great game.

05-21-2009, 07:43 PM	#3479
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Wow, so Martin had Telle pegged all that time? And then voted EF and Saldana? That's weird.

05-21-2009, 07:43 PM	#3480
Telle College Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY	So he knew about me from Night 1? And let me last that long? Wow.

05-21-2009, 07:44 PM	#3482
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Sometimes, if I hit on Night One, I'm tempted to try and get a few more scans before revealing too. I might drop a hint in the thread just in case, but I suck at hints, so. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

05-21-2009, 07:45 PM	#3483
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	Good game all. Danny, I liked the game and the effort you put into getting creative with it. With that said I think we had a bit of an uphill battle with all the roles that were out there. One thing that could have helped is if the leader/follower role would have been a 2 for 1 nk/lynch.

05-21-2009, 07:47 PM	#3485
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Yeah, you guys came really close today, if you had hit Hoops. I was worried that he was the Leader.

05-21-2009, 07:48 PM	#3486
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	So Danny, did your PM box get blown up like I said it would?

05-21-2009, 07:48 PM	#3487
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Wolves, why criticize me 2 times in a row?

05-21-2009, 07:49 PM	#3488
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	I'll just let it be known that in my game not only will you be able to reveal your roles, you'll be encouraged to reveal roles that aren't yours.

05-21-2009, 07:52 PM	#3491
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	I thought the Political game was fun and interesting. I commend all the guys that run games here. I am sure any one of us could easily just run a typical Werewolf game, but no one does that - everyone tries to mix it up and use the werewolf under the surface, but the stuff is nothing NEAR Werewolf (look at Abe's game...well, maybe that wasn't quite WW, but still, hehe) __________________ Commissioner of the RNFL

05-21-2009, 07:53 PM	#3492
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	One last comment about the mechanic as I go back and look at it. I think this would work really well if not all the villagers had a role. I think that was the Achilles Heel, that we knew everybody had one. If it was only a few and only discovered on death that would be a nice twist I think. There wouldn't be all this pressure from everyone to give up the details of your role.

05-21-2009, 07:54 PM	#3494
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Speaking of night one, what happened night one.. with no kill, no conversion.. __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

05-21-2009, 07:55 PM	#3495
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	oh yeah, did we get a bodyguard block?

05-21-2009, 07:56 PM	#3497
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Did you guys assume Abe/BK were Lovers?

05-21-2009, 07:57 PM	#3498
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	I don't think anyone said, so I'll ask again (cuz I am really curious). I thought it would not be difficult to deduce some sort of relationships between hoops and I that was "Lovers-esque". Why didn't you guys try to NK one of us? __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

05-21-2009, 07:58 PM	#3500
claphamsa Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: non white trash MD	ok, im a shitty BG and i dont like begin the BG lame __________________ Dominating Warewolf for 0 games! GIT R DUN!!!

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