Parents of gifted kids...

[GrantDawg]

I was wondering if anyone here has dealt with handling a "gifted" child? (I might have put some of this up before, but I couldn't find it).

My son, Simon, has always been bright. When he was under 3, he would compulsively put all his number blocks in order whenever they were messed up. By the time he was three, he was reading at a pretty good level without us even trying to teach him. When he started kindergarten, we told his teacher that he could read and might get a bit bored in her class. She laughed us off a bit until she saw for herself. Before long, he was a bit of a celebrity in the school system. The head of curriculum came down and tested him, and he basically tested off the charts for his age. It seems the school system hadn't had a kindergartner like Simon in a very long time. It was Christmas before the school came up with a plan for him (math and reading with the highest level first graders, and 30 minutes of "self-study" with the Quest teacher (AP type thingy).

To prepare for next year, they started extensively testing him over the last few weeks. He scored in the 98th percentile in IQ, with most of his academic abilities in the 3rd and 4th grade range. On the academic tests, he could solve very complex problems with math he has never studied (complex for his age. Not like trig or anything). But he couldn't answer straight 4x6 type questions because he hasn't gotten the "abstract" yet. They said he might actually have a hard time with that because he feels actually having to right stuff out is "beneath" him. "I know it, why should I right it down?"

The plan is to send him to the first grade next year, and with him going to Second for English, math and Quest. The principle directly told us we need to start considering options by the time he gets to third/fourth grade because she doubts the school will be able to give him what he needs by that point. I have no idea what we can do at that point. $14,000 a year for a private school isn't likely happening.

So, does anyone have any suggestions for what to do with a gifted kid at his age? Or what we should do in the future?

[Groundhog]

[DaddyTorgo]

private school scholarships based on his smarts?

[JonInMiddleGA]

This will probably be sort of free wheeling to the point of scattered but I'll throw two cents worth into the mix (okay, probably 3 or 4 cents)

First and foremost, I'd recommend letting him show you his interests just in the normal course of affairs. Typically (at least in my experience as both a gifted child & a parent of one that tested very similar to what you describe at the same age) there'll be distinct & intense curiosity displayed about all sorts of subjects, far beyond the norm for his age. Anecdotally, I'd suggest you not be surprised if those interests bordered on almost obsessive at times, but not quite to an unhealthy extreme. Then take those things & run with them, don't overlook the benefits of sort of teaching-as-you-go. It could be just about anything -- music, art, specific bits of history, math, specifics in science, writing, pretty much anything you can think of -- but the opportunities that come up through those are experiences I wouldn't trade anything in the world for. Just some examples of what I mean, since I know your location, I think we hit the Atlanta History Center with Will for the first time when he was about 4 years old, since he had taken an interest in the War of Northern Aggression. It was amazing to watch him quickly develop a grasp of the economic factors in the outcome of war while playing this game on a Saturday afternoon. And then of course the Cyclorama & Kennesaw Battlefield Park & Lookout Mtn Park. And then Fort Sumter & Charleston, all by the time he was about six. Somewhere in the middle of all that he took an interest in the U.S. Presidency and just devoured stuff on the subject. TV, Books (both age appropriate & older targeted), a trip to the Little White House, etc. That's just a couple of examples, his current interest seems to lie in biographies, wanting details about people who catch his interest for whatever reason.

We've ended up with a kid who tends to be wise beyond his years & although that isn't always 100% positive, in the long run we feel like it's beneficial.

As for the traditional school part, damned if I know what to tell you to be honest. My own experience was a joke. Skipped a grade in mid-year (i.e. did 5th & 6th grade in the same calendar year) didn't make much difference. By then I was already a raging cynic & it was pretty much downhill from there. With Will, the first private school wasn't much better (when you're writing those checks, you do NOT want to hear "oh, he's so far ahead that if he doesn't quite get so-and-so I'm not worried about it") and that's pretty much how we ended up here in Athens.

For the time being, I cannot urge you strongly enough to become an expert in everything found at http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/ci_iap_gifted.aspx
That's an overview of the rules governing gifted education in the Georgia public schools. And once you know that well (or while you're learning it chapter & verse) search the internet for support groups for gifted students and/or parents of gifted kids. I've never met one that didn't have war stories to tell about the battles to get even a decent education for their kid from the public schools, but in those stories are usually some useful nuggets of info. Those groups, or even individuals who been down the same road, will be able to help you avoid reinventing the wheel & point you toward some tactics that will help you wring everything you can out of the system. Last parent I knew in this situation had a remarkable older student (finally identified as off the charts brilliant in high school) and ended up with a lawyer & a seriously pissed off attitude before he finally got some degree of satisfaction. But he got everything he could out of the locals by the time he was finished.

There's a real balancing act you have to go through for the child & it becomes very much case by case. At some point, based on what you describe and assuming he stays on track, I believe there's a good chance you'll be offered a chance to skip your child at least one grade completely.
I advise caution & careful consideration before making a decision. From personal experience though, I advise doing it as early as possible if you're going to do it. The social wrinkles that come up if you wait until middle school age can be pretty rough and I say that from personal experience.
By the same token, that remarkable high schooler I mentioned earlier transitioned in about the 10th grade with very minimal issues. But that ultimately comes down to knowing your child, their emotional & psychological traits/tendencies, and their socialization skills both good & bad.

On the one hand, I'm actually kind of happy to hear that you seem to be getting some pretty straight talk from the admins at the current school. On the other hand, I'd be very leery of them trying to do less than they're obligated to do at some point. And be aware in advance that when you transition from one school to the other (i.e. primary to elementary) that you get to start all over again with new people with different attitudes that can either make life easier or harder. And then you head to middle school and start over again. And to high school and being again.

I'll also mention that sometimes (often, afaik) incredibly high testing students in the earliest grades tend to slowly come back toward the mean as they get older. They aren't losing their abilities, the pack is just getting a little closer to them. That's pretty normal by everything I've experienced & read, don't let it throw you.

I won't lie to you GD (although it's not something you want to hear, and in this situation really isn't something I like having to say) with scores like you're talking about, if they hold up a little longer, I'd look at every conceivable option to get them the hell out of Georgia public school. When they say they won't give the child what they need, they're being honest. If private school ultimately truly isn't an option, then I would suggest seriously considering home schooling ... but again, that gets into personalities, skill sets, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It isn't something everybody is cut out to do, even if they have a strong desire to do it.

Finally, I'd also suggest prayer, if you really have one of those statistical outliers on your hands then you're going to need all the help you can get

[Cringer]

Home school, possibly use some tutors/outside help once you get into the harder stuff.

[Crim]

How can you not love Groundhog?

[Mustang]

I think the question you need to step back and ask yourself, if your child is gifted, is he really yours?

[ColtCrazy]

Well, this is definitely a nice problem to have.

As a teacher, I can agree with Jon. Very few teachers know what to do with a truly gifted child. I've had a few gifted label children and make sure that they are pushed harder than other children. A lot of teachers don't know how to handle that...they give them more work, which is nothing more than busy work. It's not more, it's the challenge.

A lot of this will fall on you as far as pushing him the best you can at home. I caution against home schooling totally just because I believe there's a lot a child learns through social interaction with peers, but that doesn't mean you can't supplement his education through home projects.

Get to know your school district. Which teachers would challenge him? Do you have options to go to any school within the district? Is one more challenging than others? In my district, my school is considered the most academic...and we get some parents transfer kids to us just because of the focus we have on curriculum. Maybe there's a school like that near you (if private schooling isn't an option).

I'm dealing with this myself partially. My son that just turned 5, seems to have some amazing mathematical/spatial sense. He can do some simple addition/subtraction, count to 1000, and has a keen number sense, which my wife (who is teaching 1st) says is better than most of her students. He's not much interested in reading, though he does know some sight words, but his math sense amazes me.

What Simon has is special. Nice to see parents being so proactive in this. It's a refreshing twist from having to call a parent just to coax them out of bed long enough to get their child into school.

[MikeVic]

Let the kid live a life though too. I mean, don't just cram him into school studies and stuff... let him play sports and all that.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

private school scholarships based on his smarts?

No kidding. I had one of those and I was nowhere near that smart.

[cougarfreak]

If the principal is on record as saying the public school district can't accommodate your child, I believe they would pay to send him to a private school. Seriously. I'd look into it. They do it for for special ed, they should do it for gifted (and I'm not saying this in opinion, I've been an educator for 15 years).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Axxon

No kidding. I had one of those and I was nowhere near that smart.

Assuming GD hasn't moved, he's not ideally located for a private school. There are five in his county, 4 different religious academies and 1 Montessori. If I'm not mistaken the private school physically closest to Covington is the one we started at down in Monticello (and I'm not sure that's much better academically than what he's got already, although a much better learning environment IMO).

That means he has to look in the other direction, toward Atlanta & the competition for the top end schools there is fierce & often quite political (i.e. who do you know, how much will you be contributing each year, who's your daddy, how many relatives have attended, how do you fit our diversity needs, etc etc).

And if you do happen to get an opportunity, do you put a young child through morning rush hour traffic for years on end? Do you put them in the situation of being geographically isolated from their friends outside of school hours? And so forth.

All, some, or none of this may apply depending upon Dawg's exact street address of course but I'm just pointing out some of the challenges that come up.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Assuming GD hasn't moved, he's not ideally located for a private school. There are five in his county, 4 different religious academies and 1 Montessori. If I'm not mistaken the private school physically closest to Covington is the one we started at down in Monticello (and I'm not sure that's much better academically than what he's got already, although a much better learning environment IMO).

That means he has to look in the other direction, toward Atlanta & the competition for the top end schools there is fierce & often quite political (i.e. who do you know, how much will you be contributing each year, who's your daddy, how many relatives have attended, how do you fit our diversity needs, etc etc).

And if you do happen to get an opportunity, do you put a young child through morning rush hour traffic for years on end? Do you put them in the situation of being geographically isolated from their friends outside of school hours? And so forth.


All, some, or none of this may apply depending upon Dawg's exact street address of course but I'm just pointing out some of the challenges that come up.

Yes, but I walked into exactly the school you described based on a 4 hour entrance exam and some interviews with a full scholarship. Now, it was still the roughest year in my life the first year I was there but mostly because I was a transfer student and missed freshman hazing and not because I was a scholarship student but don't think it didn't come up.

I hated it there at first but I don't think I ever got an education even close to what I got there and I wouldn't change it for the world.


My point, which I really didn't make is that I was able to do that and I was nowhere near as advanced as his son is so there should be no reason that kid can't walk into a good school on a scholly.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

A lot of this will fall on you as far as pushing him the best you can at home. I caution against home schooling totally just because I believe there's a lot a child learns through social interaction with peers, but that doesn't mean you can't supplement his education through home projects.

Get to know your school district. Which teachers would challenge him? Do you have options to go to any school within the district? Is one more challenging than others? In my district, my school is considered the most academic...and we get some parents transfer kids to us just because of the focus we have on curriculum. Maybe there's a school like that near you (if private schooling isn't an option).

Great advice and I would echo the thoughts against home schooling. Unfortunately only two out of three of our kids are in the Gifted and Talented Program at school (the third, in high school, has straight As). I would also add to CC's comments about the home by saying that you can really "supplement" your son's education with home projects or teaching. Not to sound skeptical, but I highly doubt your son is going to be the next Albert Einstein. He may be exceptionally bright, but it's doubtful that he will cure cancer. In that regard, I would play the odds and not invest in a private school and choose to supplement his education at home. In any case, even if he attended a private school it would probably be incumbent upon you to work with him outside of the school.

Additionally, I would advise against skipping grades. Personally, I'd rather have a well-rounded child than one that was a genius in scholastic activities and a social idiot or the one picked last in sports. If he skips grades more than likely he will hit puberty later and that will affect his ability to participate in sports and do well.

My kids' GT programs give them freedom to explore their interests. The Enrichment program that I was in when I went through school did the same. There wasn't really anything that was accelerated although we did learn computer skills far earlier than our peers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

although we did learn computer skills far earlier than our peers.

Hard to do that these days unless you start 'em in the womb

Even some bottom feeding schools I've seen in the past decade have them on the p.c. by kindergarten and generally picking up at least some notion of keyboard skills (considering the dexterity challenges that come with young children) no later than the second grade & usually earlier.

edit to add:

and a social idiot or the one picked last in sports.

That kind of goes back to my comment about that being very case by case. That high school kid I mentioned was actually already fully socialized with the students 1-3 years ahead of him & was an all-star in two sports through the youth/rec league ages before he turned his attention elsewhere (despite some prodding by his dad to keep playing). He really caused me to become a lot more neutral in my recommendations about grade skipping as he defied quite a few of my usual concerns.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

... really caused me to become a lot more neutral ....

I call bullshit.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Assuming GD hasn't moved, he's not ideally located for a private school. There are five in his county, 4 different religious academies and 1 Montessori. If I'm not mistaken the private school physically closest to Covington is the one we started at down in Monticello (and I'm not sure that's much better academically than what he's got already, although a much better learning environment IMO).

That means he has to look in the other direction, toward Atlanta & the competition for the top end schools there is fierce & often quite political (i.e. who do you know, how much will you be contributing each year, who's your daddy, how many relatives have attended, how do you fit our diversity needs, etc etc).

And if you do happen to get an opportunity, do you put a young child through morning rush hour traffic for years on end? Do you put them in the situation of being geographically isolated from their friends outside of school hours? And so forth.

All, some, or none of this may apply depending upon Dawg's exact street address of course but I'm just pointing out some of the challenges that come up.

We are in the boat you are describing. The school in Monticello I am familar with and seems to be more of a way to get wealthier kids out of public schools and/or troubled kids able to stay in school. They aren't so much academically centered. The local religious schools are about the same. There seems to be one school in Conyers that might be a good fit (Eastminster) that we are looking at. The problem is that most don't offer scholarships for elementary school level as far as I can see. They want gifted students in High School for improved college placement scores, but there doesn't seem to be as big a benefit for them to bring in elementary age kids. We may just have to see what opens up in the next couple of years and stay on course right now.

Thanks for the advice, guys. Yeah, I'm not expecting him to cure cancer. He is not of the super-genius level or anything. I'm just more concerned with the problems he is going to have if he isn't challengened and put into a good educational structure. It would be real easy for him to become a problem student and begin to hate/rebel against school.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I think the question you need to step back and ask yourself, if your child is gifted, is he really yours?

The mailman was a member of Mensa....

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Do you have his phone number?

[SportsDino]

Can't really comment on private schools/home schooling (never had the money for that sort of stuff).

My younger brother was skipped a grade early (on top of already being socially distant) and I would echo Jon's 'case by case', in his case it blew up what was already his weakest aspect (relating to others) and he burned out early. As in, he was always easily ahead of everyone else intellectually but lost all motivation after the first year of high school.

I did not skip any grades (and I threw one intelligence test as a child because I heard a rumor that I would jump a grade if I did well and I liked a little girl in that class). I'm still socially maladjusted as hell, but I really don't think the grade or schools really had as much influence on my education as outside hobbies and curiousity.

From personal experience I'd say not to force things on them, bright kids will start out trying to please you, and if they are nice they might keep trying to, but very bright kids will start to resent it. Also you may be slowing their development. In my case, my first great hobby was writing (maybe history), which everyone assumes is rubbish for jobs... but I didn't enter those fields in college. Instead I entered technology (major) and economics (side interest) with a flair for the creative and a solid understanding of how both affect the world in the big picture.

Only other thing would be to politely encourage them to seek out projects they are curious in, and positively lead them towards COMPLETING those projects. Builds up the confidence level tremendously, and if they really are learning the lesson, they feel the satisfaction of job well done and learn to love it almost as much as the external rewards they get for doing what other people tell them to. Self-motivated, creative folk are what we need more of these days.

I personally had about as close to a laissez-faire upbringing as it gets. Little real positive or negative encouragement (and to make it true capitalism, no capital!!!). I'm far from perfect, but overall I think freedom is more important than however many schools and crazy programs you throw at a kid (realizing that sitting on the couch doing nothing is not really a hobby, so you might have to jab them into action once in a while, but constant barrage of activities is just stress on you and the kid). I'm sure having a good school beats being in a crap hole though (in public schools depending on where it is you learn more from books than teachers/classmates).

[Tekneek]

JonInMiddleGA gave some great advice. I can relate to some of his experience in the school system. It is why we decided, from the start, that we would home school our children. That way they wouldn't be forced to deal with a curriculum that bored them, refused to go outside of its own little box, etc.

School basically became a social outing for me. I knew I could pass the exams, so I grew tired of the busy work. In school, I basically looked forward to when the gifted class/quest/probe/etc would meet, because then we actually got to do something interesting.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'd suggest encouraging him at home as much as possible and finding a school which has special programs to bring the best out of kids WITHOUT moving them too far from their peer age group.

I think that school is as important for social development as for education myself and would try and resist moving him too far up age-wise from his peers (its for this reason why my wife and I turned down the chance to 'jump' out kids up a grade or two when we moved over to America).

PS - There are some very good public school courses/systems in America if you look around (at least where I am in Florida).

[Khorium]

[Fidatelo]

I don't know much about truly gifted kids (I wasn't one, didn't know any, and probably won't have any of my own), but I will echo the opinion that school is, in my opinion, as important for social skills as it is for book learnin'.

Here is a suggestion that isn't necessarily strictly related to a gifted kid: if the kid is doing well and seems happy and not getting into trouble, then stay the course. If the kid starts to misbehave, rebel, etc (either out of boredom in the case of smart kids, or just falling in with the wrong crowd), then don't hesitate to move them somewhere else.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I was homeschooled. Look how I turned out.

Don't homeschool your child.

[GrantDawg]

Well, time for an update. Simon did well with his schedule last year (Kindergarten), but this year has started getting tougher. Since returning from Christmas break, there have been a lot of problems with him and the other first graders in his class. There is a lot of jealousy there (and not just from the kids. One parent is starting to raise a stink because her precious snow-flake is smart, why isn't he taking second grade classes?). The kids have started picking on him for missing the "fun" classes (music, art, etc. which by the original agreement was not supposed to happen). And there has been a lot of orginizational confusion dealing with him having 5 teachers. It is a bit much for a 6 year old.

His second grade math teacher wants him to just stay with him. He was a gifted student as well, and thinks Simon would do just fine being accelerated right now. He doesn't seem to have any problems dealing with the second graders (or the third graders for that matter. He is with the 3rd grade in Quest class). I was just reading what was written ealier, and Jon's advice on accelerating early seems pretty sound. And don't worry about the sports thing. His IQ might make me question whether he is mine or not, but his ball skills proves it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Oh, and Jon, yeah, he does the obsession thing for sure. Earlier this year it was making movies. He'd spend hours on movie-maker creating mini-movies. Then it was maps. He was reading a world atlas for his bedtime book every night. Now, it is languages. He can't get enough Japanese, and he sits in front of the tv watching spanish television as much as he can. He says when he grows up he going to move to Japan and study karate.

[Abe Sargent]

My dad chose not to double promote me in elementary school, and in retrospect, I wish he had.

[CraigSca]

One thing our psychologist tells us all the time - gifted children have a hard time with effort and failure. This will sound silly, but teach your child early on that you don't care what kind of grades he gets as long as he puts in the effort. Praise his effort, not the end result (for instance, if the child is great at spelling and continually gets 100% on his spelling tests, that's good - but praise the effort in the subjects he's not necessarily gifted in).

There will come a time where the gifted child is presented with a topic and or subject he's not the master in. You want him to have the discipline to work through it rather than run (because all of a sudden what has come easily for him all this time now isn't, and he can't comprehend not succeeding at everything easily - and the tendency is to make it "go away", by whatever means).

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

There will come a time where the gifted child is presented with a topic and or subject he's not the master in. You want him to have the discipline to work through it rather than run (because all of a sudden what has come easily for him all this time now isn't, and he can't comprehend not succeeding at everything easily - and the tendency is to make it "go away", by whatever means).

Smart psychologist.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

One thing our psychologist tells us all the time - gifted children have a hard time with effort and failure. This will sound silly, but teach your child early on that you don't care what kind of grades he gets as long as he puts in the effort. Praise his effort, not the end result (for instance, if the child is great at spelling and continually gets 100% on his spelling tests, that's good - but praise the effort in the subjects he's not necessarily gifted in).

There will come a time where the gifted child is presented with a topic and or subject he's not the master in. You want him to have the discipline to work through it rather than run (because all of a sudden what has come easily for him all this time now isn't, and he can't comprehend not succeeding at everything easily - and the tendency is to make it "go away", by whatever means).

Along this same line, don't praise the child for being smart. Child psychologists have found that praising a child for being smart will encourage them to avoid situations where they might fail. Praising the effort and encouraging challenges that require work to overcome will help prevent him from only chasing easy results.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Along this same line, don't praise the child for being smart. Child psychologists have found that praising a child for being smart will encourage them to avoid situations where they might fail. Praising the effort and encouraging challenges that require work to overcome will help prevent him from only chasing easy results.

Good points. That all makes sense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

First GD, glad to see a relatively positive update on this thread. Yeah, it's not without problems but at the same time kicking butt at the work you're assigned to do ain't a bad thing, so it's more positive than negative afaic.

What got me a little bit though is a couple of CraigSca's things, not that they're inherently wrong but I felt pretty strongly that they needed some more balance in consideration.

Originally Posted by CraigSca

One thing our psychologist tells us all the time - gifted children have a hard time with effort and failure.

I won't argue that point at all.

This will sound silly, but teach your child early on that you don't care what kind of grades he gets as long as he puts in the effort. Praise his effort, not the end result (for instance, if the child is great at spelling and continually gets 100% on his spelling tests, that's good - but praise the effort in the subjects he's not necessarily gifted in).

Maybe not a stop sign but at least "slow to appropriate speed" caution here. It can be difficult, especially in the earlier school years to find something the student isn't qualified as gifted in. On the kind of roll that was described originally, I doubt there's much that he's having to put a lot of effort in to perform at a high level not even with the accelerated grade level work.

And I strongly advise against ever teaching the whole "don't care about the grades, just the effort" notion at an early age. There's a tremendous risk of devaluing one of the things the child is good at & feels deserving of praise for, which becomes extremely important given the oh-so-familiar social issues that are cropping up now. I know that the phrase about not caring isn't meant literally but there seems to be a tendency to forget that children, even the most incredibly smart ones, can be quite literal at that age. Their ability to discern subtle differences in what we say & what we really mean just isn't as developed as their more academic abilities but it's really easy to forget that as a parent. We become so accustomed to seeing them perform far beyond their age that we can forget that they're not entirely "little adults", or as I used to call mine "a forty year old midget".

There will come a time where the gifted child is presented with a topic and or subject he's not the master in. You want him to have the discipline to work through it rather than run (because all of a sudden what has come easily for him all this time now isn't, and he can't comprehend not succeeding at everything easily - and the tendency is to make it "go away", by whatever means).

Very true, very valid point, again no disagreement from me one bit on the basic premise. But I'd advise against going overboard in creating those opportunities to teach that lesson, at some point it almost becomes setting the child up to fail & I'm not a fan of that as it borders too close to breaking the trust bond between parent & child afaic. Those topics requiring effort will come up, and you be prepared to teach the neccessary lessons when they do but I wouldn't be overly concerned about forcing the issue until it happens.

Seems like a good place for me to mention that eventually there's a good chance that something will come up that is simply one of those things that no amount of effort is ever going to make very clear, that "damn, my brain just isn't wired in a way that this connects" moment. (For me it was geometry in the 6th grade, and more broadly spatial relationships).

What I'm trying to say here -- whether I managed to do it well or not -- is that I agree that there's a need to balance praising effort and performance but for a number of reasons I'd counsel caution about going overboard in devaluing the performance aspect. I've seen that happen more than once, contributing to some pretty serious emotional/psychological issues that the child has to deal with for years down the road.

My two cents, just some cautionary balancing to the message hopefully added to the mix.

[BrianD]

Rather than creating opportunities to fail, look for activities where it takes more than one try to succeed. We've had many threads around here for time-wasting puzzle games. If you can find one of those the kid enjoys, you can teach the lesson of learning from failed attempts to eventually get the right solution.

[JonInMiddleGA]

FWIW, I asked my son for his take on the subject & his answer was "there's gotta be a balance, otherwise you're either gonna be miserable or you're gonna be in trouble when you finally run into something that's hard"

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FWIW, I asked my son for his take on the subject & his answer was "there's gotta be a balance, otherwise you're either gonna be miserable or you're gonna be in trouble when you finally run into something that's hard"

Which is impressive, because Jon's son is six weeks old.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Which is impressive, because Jon's son is six weeks old.

Ba duh bum

[B & B]

more like six week old shadow.


"bring me some taco bell, bitch"

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

First GD, glad to see a relatively positive update on this thread. Yeah, it's not without problems but at the same time kicking butt at the work you're assigned to do ain't a bad thing, so it's more positive than negative afaic.

What got me a little bit though is a couple of CraigSca's things, not that they're inherently wrong but I felt pretty strongly that they needed some more balance in consideration.



I won't argue that point at all.



Maybe not a stop sign but at least "slow to appropriate speed" caution here. It can be difficult, especially in the earlier school years to find something the student isn't qualified as gifted in. On the kind of roll that was described originally, I doubt there's much that he's having to put a lot of effort in to perform at a high level not even with the accelerated grade level work.

And I strongly advise against ever teaching the whole "don't care about the grades, just the effort" notion at an early age. There's a tremendous risk of devaluing one of the things the child is good at & feels deserving of praise for, which becomes extremely important given the oh-so-familiar social issues that are cropping up now. I know that the phrase about not caring isn't meant literally but there seems to be a tendency to forget that children, even the most incredibly smart ones, can be quite literal at that age. Their ability to discern subtle differences in what we say & what we really mean just isn't as developed as their more academic abilities but it's really easy to forget that as a parent. We become so accustomed to seeing them perform far beyond their age that we can forget that they're not entirely "little adults", or as I used to call mine "a forty year old midget".



Very true, very valid point, again no disagreement from me one bit on the basic premise. But I'd advise against going overboard in creating those opportunities to teach that lesson, at some point it almost becomes setting the child up to fail & I'm not a fan of that as it borders too close to breaking the trust bond between parent & child afaic. Those topics requiring effort will come up, and you be prepared to teach the neccessary lessons when they do but I wouldn't be overly concerned about forcing the issue until it happens.

Seems like a good place for me to mention that eventually there's a good chance that something will come up that is simply one of those things that no amount of effort is ever going to make very clear, that "damn, my brain just isn't wired in a way that this connects" moment. (For me it was geometry in the 6th grade, and more broadly spatial relationships).

What I'm trying to say here -- whether I managed to do it well or not -- is that I agree that there's a need to balance praising effort and performance but for a number of reasons I'd counsel caution about going overboard in devaluing the performance aspect. I've seen that happen more than once, contributing to some pretty serious emotional/psychological issues that the child has to deal with for years down the road.

My two cents, just some cautionary balancing to the message hopefully added to the mix.

Understand, but I'd venture to say the very things you're worried about (emotional/psychological issues down the road) are the very things that are exacerbated when focusing purely on performance. Frankly, when you get right down to it, what more can you ask of a person other than their best effort? If they're good at something, that best effort is automatically going to mean good performance. The trap we get into, especially with children who pick things up easily, is praising exactly that - the fact they pick things up easily. Inevitably there will be a problem - whether it's a school subject, or, later in life, a project at work that just isn't going to come so easy. We don't want the child (now an adult) to run away from the problem because his entire life he's been praised (in his eyes ONLY) because he grasps things easily and this first thing, whatever it is, challenges him. Really, what you're trying to teach the child is - hey, you can be a smart all you want, but the real measure of a person is their discipline and their ability to work through problems. Life isn't fair, and when it's not fair - don't complain to the person who made the rules, work through the problem and come out the other side stronger.

It's the same thing from a psychological point of view - if the person has had a cushy life without any problems, where's the room for growth?

Oh, and one other thing my wife wanted me to add - not only praise their effort, but their character. For instance, if they get an A in a subject because they worked their butt off - praise their discipline and their effort first and foremost. I don't mean you can't praise the "A" - I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just make sure you praise the effort and their ability to overcome an obstacle and not give up.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

One thing our psychologist tells us all the time - gifted children have a hard time with effort and failure. This will sound silly, but teach your child early on that you don't care what kind of grades he gets as long as he puts in the effort. Praise his effort, not the end result (for instance, if the child is great at spelling and continually gets 100% on his spelling tests, that's good - but praise the effort in the subjects he's not necessarily gifted in).

There will come a time where the gifted child is presented with a topic and or subject he's not the master in. You want him to have the discipline to work through it rather than run (because all of a sudden what has come easily for him all this time now isn't, and he can't comprehend not succeeding at everything easily - and the tendency is to make it "go away", by whatever means).

This is exactly what happened to me. I went from being the class all star to moving into another school where they had accelerated classes and being just another bunny in the pen.

Once classes reached a level where I had to actually try to work them out, I quit trying altogether. All I ever heard from people was "You've got SO MUCH potential...blah blah fuckity fuck-you blah" or "Its about damn time you got A's" when I'd been bringing home A's and B's consistantly.

Fuck them.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but as a former gifted child, one thing I saw here really struck me...

Originally Posted by CraigSca

There will come a time where the gifted child is presented with a topic and or subject he's not the master in. You want him to have the discipline to work through it rather than run (because all of a sudden what has come easily for him all this time now isn't, and he can't comprehend not succeeding at everything easily - and the tendency is to make it "go away", by whatever means).

From personal experience this is incredibly, incredibly accurate. I don't fault my parents or think that they didn't do a good enough job with this, but growing up I was very accustomed to simply waltzing through school without a problem, because it wasn't the least bit challenging. When I finally hit some difficult classes (Freshman year of College - Calculus and Physics) I convinced myself to opt out of my chosen major (Computer Science) because I was struggling with those classes. To this day I regret the decision and am actually considering going back to school to finally finish the Computer Science degree that I gave up on (I do have a Bachelor's in History).

Growing up, I was in the GATE (Gifted And Talented Education) program in our school district - they put together about 20 kids from my grade level and once a week we'd get on a bus and go to a different school for 2 hours or so to do advanced subject matter, typically in Science and Math. This was during the Elementary School years, K-5. To be perfectly honest, I didn't really enjoy it because while it might have been advanced, it was still very generally applied - of the 20 students there were still wildly varying levels of intelligence, and they were not able to truly challenge those at the top of the curve without leaving the "borderline" gifted kids in the dust. I didn't have many problems socially because of this, but again I think that may be because of the large group that they pulled us out in. There were discussions about bumping me up a grade level, but my parents balked at the idea for fear of social backlash at school, and in hindsight I'm grateful that they did. I don't know that getting to where I am now one (or possibly even two) years faster than I already did would have made that much of a difference, and I am still good friends with quite a few of the children I went to school with.

From Middle School (public school, 6-8) on through High School (Private, 9-12) I simply took advanced classes with students who were above my grade level. I felt that this was a more natural way to handle it because the coursework was there, and not created to cater to an ambiguous level of intelligence that didn't necessarily match the students involved.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but as a former gifted child, one thing I saw here really struck me...



From personal experience this is incredibly, incredibly accurate. I don't fault my parents or think that they didn't do a good enough job with this, but growing up I was very accustomed to simply waltzing through school without a problem, because it wasn't the least bit challenging. When I finally hit some difficult classes (Freshman year of College - Calculus and Physics) I convinced myself to opt out of my chosen major (Computer Science) because I was struggling with those classes. To this day I regret the decision and am actually considering going back to school to finally finish the Computer Science degree that I gave up on (I do have a Bachelor's in History).

Growing up, I was in the GATE (Gifted And Talented Education) program in our school district - they put together about 20 kids from my grade level and once a week we'd get on a bus and go to a different school for 2 hours or so to do advanced subject matter, typically in Science and Math. This was during the Elementary School years, K-5. To be perfectly honest, I didn't really enjoy it because while it might have been advanced, it was still very generally applied - of the 20 students there were still wildly varying levels of intelligence, and they were not able to truly challenge those at the top of the curve without leaving the "borderline" gifted kids in the dust. I didn't have many problems socially because of this, but again I think that may be because of the large group that they pulled us out in. There were discussions about bumping me up a grade level, but my parents balked at the idea for fear of social backlash at school, and in hindsight I'm grateful that they did. I don't know that getting to where I am now one (or possibly even two) years faster than I already did would have made that much of a difference, and I am still good friends with quite a few of the children I went to school with.

From Middle School (public school, 6-8) on through High School (Private, 9-12) I simply took advanced classes with students who were above my grade level. I felt that this was a more natural way to handle it because the coursework was there, and not created to cater to an ambiguous level of intelligence that didn't necessarily match the students involved.

+whatever. Good post.

[boberot]

I'm a member of our local AGATE chapter [Association for Gifted and Talented Education], as my two kids are both G&T.

I could go on and on about the battle my wife and I have had with the local school administration, but unfortunately, there seem to be a couple generalities that lose out around here:

1. When money is tight, perceived "extras" -- i.e., the enrichment classes for G&T kids -- "who are going to get good test scores anyway" are the first to get the axe.

2. There were public hearings about the matter in our district and I was slightly surprised and disappointed at the public sentiment AGAINST such programs. There is a prejudice against what many around here see as an elitist program. Yes, many of the G&T kids had parents who were doctors and engineers -- although certainly not the majority; but I didn't understand that perception as a motive for arguing against spending the needed money on G&T programs. It has been extremely frustrating.

I made the case in front of the school board, administration and assembled masses that it should be considered special education, defined as: "the education of students with special needs in a way that addresses the students' individual differences and needs." Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me.

Anyway, although this is a NYS organization, the "Links" section has a lot of great resources:

AGATE Links

[DaddyTorgo]

seems like special education to me.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

+whatever. Good post.

Thanks, I started rambling near the end. I think the short summary of the post is that teaching gifted youngsters is walking a fine line between stimulating their mind and maintaining a good social balance. One-on-one teaching would seem to be the best remedy for the intellectual side of things, however it would leave the social aspect to wither.

As a suggestion, I would probably say that the best course of action is probably to not deviate horribly far from the norm for children of his age, even if his intellect dictates it. Keep him stimulated on the side, specifically with reading. I have read more books than anyone I have ever met, and I attribute much of my knowledge to this day to all of the reading that I did as a child and still do now as an adult. As long as you keep challenging him (or he keeps challenging himself), he will continue to develop intellectually. Leaving him with his peers socially will continue to help him develop there (which is something you can't simulate outside of his peer group), and you can continue to help him develop intellectually at the same time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Leaving him with his peers socially will continue to help him develop there (which is something you can't simulate outside of his peer group)

The question I would raise (pretty strongly in fact) having been both the child & to some extent the parent as well is whether those students constitute the child's "peer group". In cases of exceptional intelligence it isn't unusual for the only thing that child has in common with an average classroom to be oxygen consumption & some age-related physical characteristics, and I don't believe that constitutes a "peer".

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by RendeR

This is exactly what happened to me. I went from being the class all star to moving into another school where they had accelerated classes and being just another bunny in the pen.

Once classes reached a level where I had to actually try to work them out, I quit trying altogether. All I ever heard from people was "You've got SO MUCH potential...blah blah fuckity fuck-you blah" or "Its about damn time you got A's" when I'd been bringing home A's and B's consistantly.

Fuck them.

It's not your fault, Will. It's not your fault.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by boberot

There were public hearings about the matter in our district and I was slightly surprised and disappointed at the public sentiment AGAINST such programs. There is a prejudice against what many around here see as an elitist program. Yes, many of the G&T kids had parents who were doctors and engineers -- although certainly not the majority; but I didn't understand that perception as a motive for arguing against spending the needed money on G&T programs. It has been extremely frustrating.

Playing the Devil's advocate here, it is an elitist program. The whole point of a gifted program is to single out a small percentage of kids, generally using some sort of testing mechanism, to send them off for special instruction. Essentially, you are establishing an elite.

Given that many gifted programs determine who is gifted in kindergarten or first grade, when children from higher up in the socio-economic scale tend to do better, it is elitist in that regard. Most programs never retest and never toss out kids that turn out not to be gifted, so if a child is out at the begining for any reason, they are out forever.

Incidentally, my best friend was a victim of that. His language skills developed on the slow end of the spectrum so he did poorly on the IQ test used to get into the gifted program. By third grade, he had caught up to everyone else. By 6th grade, it was clear to anyone that he was as smart as anyone on the inside of the program. But there was no way in at that point.

I can also see their point about money. Education budgets are zero sum games. More money is being spent on gifted kids per pupil than average kids, and it is not unreasonable for a school board to take a look at that and wonder if it should be that way. If I am on the board and faced with the decision that many boards are facing right now -- whether to cut some teachers or programs that all my kids use or to cut a teacher and a program that serves <10% of my kids -- I'd be hard-pressed to justify supporting the gifted kids.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I'd be hard-pressed to justify supporting the gifted kids.

Similar, I suppose, to how I'd be hard pressed to justify failing to do so.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The question I would raise (pretty strongly in fact) having been both the child & to some extent the parent as well is whether those students constitute the child's "peer group". In cases of exceptional intelligence it isn't unusual for the only thing that child has in common with an average classroom to be oxygen consumption & some age-related physical characteristics, and I don't believe that constitutes a "peer".

It's a valid argument, and determining peer groups for children (heck, people even, not just children) who are clearly above their age level intellectually is a difficult task. I know, for example, that while I was participating in classes with students above my grade level (sometimes as many as three grades higher) I couldn't possibly associate with the students outside of the subject material.

My counter-argument would be that these gifted children are eventually going to have to leave the gifted education program and go out into the real world - they will be forced to interact with people who aren't as intelligent as they are at some point. Learning how to interact with people of different backgrounds, be it socially, economically or intellectually, is incredibly important (in my opinion), especially in the formative years of childhood. By the time they get out of their gifted group, it may be far more difficult for them to adjust to the norms of societal interaction amongst people who don't share their intellectual gifts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I know, for example, that while I was participating in classes with students above my grade level (sometimes as many as three grades higher) I couldn't possibly associate with the students outside of the subject material.

I think that becomes a kid by kid thing to at least some extent. Case in point, my son's best friend by most any measure we'd use to gauge that, is currently in Afghanistan in uniform. My two best friends growing up, I'd identify them as such without hesitation, were 4-5 years older than me.

My counter-argument would be that these gifted children are eventually going to have to leave the gifted education program and go out into the real world - they will be forced to interact with people who aren't as intelligent as they are at some point.

My argument (or point of view really, I don't perceive that we're actually arguing it here) is that this happens for them pretty naturally over the course of their lives regardless of school. By the time they get into even upper primary school they're likely interacting with waitresses, fast food counter help, the popcorn guy at the movies, etc.

By the time they get out of their gifted group, it may be far more difficult for them to adjust to the norms of societal interaction amongst people who don't share their intellectual gifts.

Eh, they just have to learn to fake it like the rest of us.