Pure Sim, OOTP 2006 or Both?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fixed that for ya.

He may be perfectly spot-on, time will tell, I'm completely open to that possibility. But how on earth could his perspective not be considered less than skewed by the situation?

What's he going to come on here and say? "Oh, the platform has been a miserable failure & we've really given up hope at this point?"

Benefit of the doubt is one thing but good grief, talk about somebody/some company getting their butts kissed ... defending this is about as silly as I've seen here yet.

of course his perspective is biased. but you know what Jon...(and i mean this constructively so sorry if it comes off sounding harsh) everybody's perspective on EVERYTHING is biased. Your perspective on things is biased. Mine is biased. Ben's is biased. EVERYONE is biased about EVERYTHING. It's our responsibility as intelligent human beings, intelligent "consumers" of information, to be able to recognize these biases and assign the person's opinion or position (or whatever it may be) the appropriate weight based on that.

If you go to a restraunt and the waiter recommends the special and says it's amazing do you assume that it actually IS awesome? No. You assume that the waiter is trying to push something on you that is overpriced/that they have an excess of. But do you get upset and call the waiter on that and blast him as the exception to the rule? (FWIW I know you might actually answer yes to this and if that's the case then obviously there is no common ground to discuss this on because you are incapable of letting anything go).

I look at this the same way.

edit: changed a t to a w

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

of course his perspective is biased. but you know what Jon...(and i mean this constructively so sorry if it comes off sounding harsh) everybody's perspective on EVERYTHING is biased. Your perspective on things is biased. Mine is biased. Ben's is biased. EVERYONE is biased about EVERYTHING. It's our responsibility as intelligent human beings, intelligent "consumers" of information, to be able to recognize these biases and assign the person's opinion or position (or whatever it may be) the appropriate weight based on that.

If you go to a restraunt and the waiter recommends the special and says it's amazing do you assume that it actually IS awesome? No. You assume that the waiter is trying to push something on you that is overpriced/that they have an excess of. But do you get upset and call the waiter on that and blast him as the exception to the rule? (FWIW I know you might actually answer yes to this and if that's the case then obviously there is no common ground to discuss this on because you are incapable of letting anything go).

I look at this the same way.

edit: changed a t to a w

B-i-n-g-o and Bingo was his name O.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

everybody's perspective on EVERYTHING is biased. Your perspective on things is biased.

Agreed.

Except in this case, my perspective, your perspective, Ben's perspective doesn't include a vested interest.

DT, I honestly can't put my finger on it, there was something about the answer that just really put me off. It came across very, well, "dismissive" was the word I used earlier and it's still the best one I can come up with.

I don't know why it struck me that way (as I said at the time, it seemed contrary to the norm from SI), but it did. There was just a real arrogant tone to it as I read it, like "don't worry about it, I'm assuring you it's fine, end of subject". And that's not what I expect from the SI guys, it doesn't fit my perception of them.

Perhaps a different phrasing would have served the same purpose without the bad vibe, something like "Naturally YMMV, but having played it, I believe you'll be happy with the engine." Not that precisely of course, but something that acknowledged that someone with a vested interest in the outcome wasn't going to be able to offer a definitive response while still having an optimistic tone or whatever. The latter I expect and don't really have a problem with, it's just that this didn't come across that way to me.

I really don't feel like you have to agree with me on the tone of the post, there's going to be some eye of the beholder there, but hopefully you can at least see how I read it that way and maybe why that prompted a reaction too.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Agreed.

Except in this case, my perspective, your perspective, Ben's perspective doesn't include a vested interest.

DT, I honestly can't put my finger on it, there was something about the answer that just really put me off. It came across very, well, "dismissive" was the word I used earlier and it's still the best one I can come up with.

I don't know why it struck me that way (as I said at the time, it seemed contrary to the norm from SI), but it did. There was just a real arrogant tone to it as I read it, like "don't worry about it, I'm assuring you it's fine, end of subject". And that's not what I expect from the SI guys, it doesn't fit my perception of them.

Perhaps a different phrasing would have served the same purpose without the bad vibe, something like "Naturally YMMV, but having played it, I believe you'll be happy with the engine." Not that precisely of course, but something that acknowledged that someone with a vested interest in the outcome wasn't going to be able to offer a definitive response while still having an optimistic tone or whatever. The latter I expect and don't really have a problem with, it's just that this didn't come across that way to me.

I really don't feel like you have to agree with me on the tone of the post, there's going to be some eye of the beholder there, but hopefully you can at least see how I read it that way and maybe why that prompted a reaction too.

wow. color me surprised/impressed. I do agree FWIW it's worth Jon that it could have come across as a little "dismissive" to some. I naturally just assumed that it was because Marc was busy or any of a million other things, but I certainly understand how one could have read it as dismissive.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Spare me the eye rolling.
I'm entitled to not like the dismissive tone of the post by a company rep and to make an observation about it.

If you don't like it, the FOFC ignore feature works really well. I'd do the same for you except I'm not sure there's much point, given the awesome level of contributions your handle has made in the past 2+ years. So please feel free to shove your rolly eyes up your ass at your leisure.

WTF, relax Jon, you do understand TIC don't you? Should I use a wink next time? Whether I have an awesome contribution level or not, you don't ever see me flame people so no need to act like I insulted you.

I am curious about the engine too, but honestly don't have a problem with Marc answering the question the way he did, though I would rather hear it from a Beta tester.........

Geez, I thought you and I were friends on the OOTP boards?

[Marc Duffy]

Dismissive? Arrogant?

Sure I'm biased but I'm in the unique position of having played the game, I've played all our games. Surely, as someone who has done that I'm allowed and certainly qualified to pass my judgement on how one of our games fairs on a new engine to all of you - especially as this seemed to be a concern for one person at least.

You seem to find that and my subsequent incredibly offensive JonInMiddleGA, in which case you should probably press the ignore button now for me and we need never cross paths again.

If you like, I can ask our beta team to come by here too and tell their stories about how they've found the game on the new engine. Ultimately, through a demo, people can make their own minds up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well I'll be damned.

Here I was thinking I might have just misread Doofy's post ... instead, it turns out he was being an arrogant bastard.

I hate to break it to you Mr. High & Mighty, but I seriously doubt there's only one person concerned with whether the game is going to look, feel, and behave like baseball. OOTP sure as hell never did, why the hell wouldn't there be some reasonable doubts? Because you're the incredible SI? Well whoopdy fuckin' do. Getting in bed with Sega give you guys an attitude or something? Or is it just you that's a santicmonius prick?

in which case you should probably press the ignore button now for me and we need never cross paths again.

Normally I'd probably do just that, but in this instance, you've managed to come across as such an unbearable prick that I'll probably keep an eye open just to call bullshit on you when the need arises. Looks like you're badly in need of it.

If you like, I can ask our beta team to come by here too

Not worth the time, at this point I can't imagine you haven't managed to fill it with some bootlickers that blow sunshine up your skirt rather than tell you the truth.

Seems like there's only two things left for you to do right now Doofy.
1) Kiss my ass.
2) Run along.

[Marc Duffy]

You go girl!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

You go girl!

Ah yes, that legendary British wit. I'm wounded, mortally wounded I tell ya.

Seems to me that it's about time the grownups took your keyboard away before you manage to pull a Matrix p.r. job.

I wonder what Mike Hayes would think of the positive image you're portraying?

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seems like there's only two things left for you to do right now Doofy.
1) Kiss my ass.
2) Run along.

did you get beaten with the crazy stick this weekend? or is it just a problem with your medication? Your penchant for irrationality seems to have reached new heights today.

fucking chill, please, before you make the rest of us look stupid by association.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

did you get beaten with the crazy stick this weekend? or is it just a problem with your medication? Your penchant for irrationality seems to have reached new heights today.

fucking chill, please, before you make the rest of us look stupid by association.

You want to kiss their ass DD, go right ahead. But I believe the question originally posed was valid, I don't believe it warranted the arrogant reply it received, and I don't believe Doofy has gotten a tenth of what he has coming for it.

[RedKingGold]

Was JimGA kicked in the head when he was a wee' toddler?

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well I'll be damned.

Here I was thinking I might have just misread Doofy's post ... instead, it turns out he was being an arrogant bastard.

I hate to break it to you Mr. High & Mighty, but I seriously doubt there's only one person concerned with whether the game is going to look, feel, and behave like baseball. OOTP sure as hell never did, why the hell wouldn't there be some reasonable doubts? Because you're the incredible SI? Well whoopdy fuckin' do. Getting in bed with Sega give you guys an attitude or something? Or is it just you that's a santicmonius prick?



Normally I'd probably do just that, but in this instance, you've managed to come across as such an unbearable prick that I'll probably keep an eye open just to call bullshit on you when the need arises. Looks like you're badly in need of it.



Not worth the time, at this point I can't imagine you haven't managed to fill it with some bootlickers that blow sunshine up your skirt rather than tell you the truth.

Seems like there's only two things left for you to do right now Doofy.
1) Kiss my ass.
2) Run along.

Umm, moderators? Moderators? Is there anybody out there?

JimGA's initial question was legitimate, of course, but there was nothing dismissive in the initial reply, as far as I can tell. What were you expecting him to say: "you have raised an issue that is far beyond my competence to address, and clearly you are a genius for having done so?"

Seriously, between JimGA's flaming of the developer of FOF for talking about his house, and now his flaming of the developer of CM/FM for bothering to try to answer a question, you have to wonder whether a text-sim developer scared him as a small child. We need to get EaglesFan27 in here to make a diagnosis.

Oh, yeah, in before the lock.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Oh, yeah, in before the lock.

No comment about anything else happening in this thread, but I'm 99% certain that this thread won't get locked. Honestly, there's nothing bad enough happening here to warrant it.

[KWhit]

Wow.

[TroyF]

Yikes. I thought this all ended with JIMG essentially saying he misread the post and apologizing for the harsh criticism of it.

I'm not sure why Marc felt the need to jump back in and even I thought the second post was ridiculous. (I had ZERO problems with the first)

This is the problem with developers posting on a website. All it takes is for one post to be taken the wrong way by someone. I have no idea what JIMG's problem with the first post was. I thought he took it the wrong way.

I then thought he did a fairly good job of explaining why he did what he did and that this would end. I'm not sure what purpose Marc had in mind with the second post. This thing was cleared up and over with.

The last one really crossed the line IMO. Under no circumstance should a developer or anyone directly involved with the company get into a flame war on a public board.

I do think JIMG came off too hard again on the second post, but this time I have to at least agree with the reasoning.

Can't we all just get along?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I then thought he did a fairly good job of explaining why he did what he did and that this would end.

Truth of the matter, so did I.

Honest to goodness, I figured there'd be some post about "wow, I didn't mean it that way" or something, I'd move along as a misunderstanding, end of story.

Instead, I find out that my first impression was the right one after all. (I really gotta learn to start trusting those more I think, it's something I've kind of slacked on)

As it stands now, I've said at least part of what I believe needed to be said, enough that I can at least live with the parts I missed. It can be over with or it can continue, that's pretty much up to him at this point. Personally I hope it's over but who knows.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The last one really crossed the line IMO.

You use this statement towards Marc's post and not Jon's? Gotta say I disagree.

Jon was way out of line.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by KWhit

You use this statement towards Marc's post and not Jon's? Gotta say I disagree.

Jon was way out of line.

I'm speaking of the "you go girl" post.

Pretty simple really. Marc represents SI. He cannot and should not get involved in a flame war. I mean, no other way to say it.

Even his second response I thought was not needed. JIMG had fallen on his sword about as well as I've ever seen him. He said he misread the post and that it was all ok and done.

Do I think Jon's reply was out of line? Yeah, I do. I think both of his were and I said so. I have a much easier time with understanding the second one though. Either Marc didn't read through the rest of the thread before he posted that second response or he wanted to start a fight.

I'm not trying to take sides here. I don't like what I saw from either party. But I'm not going to just brush Marc and his responses under the rug either. This started from jon misreading a post. It should have ended when he aplogized for reading it that way.

But I never, ever, ever like seeing a company spokesman get into a flamewar under any circumstances. The company should be above that. If Marc didn't read the thread and catch Jon's statement that he misread the post, fine. It was just another mistake that caused this thing to snowball.

But the reply after Jon's next blowup should not have been typed up. There was no need for anything after that. Take this for what it's worth, it's just my opinioh, YMMV.

[Bee]

Well this thread took an interesting turn...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It should have ended when he aplogized for reading it that way.

Before anyone else mentions this to you, I don't really feel like I apologized.
I really just opened the door to that possibility, in the event there was some misunderstanding. I see now that one wasn't required as my suspicions were very well justified by his subsequent behavior.

But the reply after Jon's next blowup should not have been typed up.

Interesting. I actually thought the very last one was mildly amusing , albeit very mildly. It was the second one (where he attempted to justify his behavior in post one) that sent me over the moon.

[TroyF]

I don't know why it struck me that way (as I said at the time, it seemed contrary to the norm from SI), but it did. There was just a real arrogant tone to it as I read it, like "don't worry about it, I'm assuring you it's fine, end of subject". And that's not what I expect from the SI guys, it doesn't fit my perception of them.

That's an olive branch. Maybe not a full fledged apology, but the start of one none the less.

I agree on your other point. I didn't like his second response that set you off. I thought it was out of line. But, I could at least see the potential he missed your post and was only looking at the earlier ones. OK, I can live with that.

There was no response on the "girl" comment. It was strictly to take a pot shot and I don't think you can do this in Marc's line of work. It's just one of my pet peeves really.

[Franklinnoble]

Yeah... I gotta agree with that. Game developers need to be a little more mature on message boards.

[sovereignstar]

I don't see where the problem is. There aren't any grey players in this thread, right?

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Yeah... I gotta agree with that. Game developers need to be a little more mature on message boards.

Sure, but if the guy thought ihe perhaps did misread the post, then maybe he should have edited the original post to reflect that.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Seriously, between JimGA's flaming of the developer of FOF for talking about his house, and now his flaming of the developer of CM/FM for bothering to try to answer a question, you have to wonder whether a text-sim developer scared him as a small child. We need to get EaglesFan27 in here to make a diagnosis.

Don't forget his distaste for Puresim because of their publisher. Developers should just ignore posts from people who are obviously looking for a fight.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Seriously, between JimGA's flaming of the developer of FOF for talking about his house, and now his flaming of the developer of CM/FM for bothering to try to answer a question, you have to wonder whether a text-sim developer scared him as a small child.

Maybe I missed something, but wasn't it Hell Atlantic that had a problem with the house photos?

[Toddzilla]

I hate to go off-topic here, but I have a question related to the game (ping: FN)....

How does the import and play of past seasons differ that what was possible before from OOTP?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I hate to go off-topic here, but I have a question related to the game (ping: FN)....

How does the import and play of past seasons differ that what was possible before from OOTP?

Honestly, I can't answer that, only because I haven't played OOTP in nearly two years, and I never used that feature. Is there something specific you're looking for that I might be able to check out?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Don't forget his distaste for Puresim because of their publisher. Developers should just ignore posts from people who are obviously looking for a fight.

I actually think Puresim looks good. I'm just not going to buy it because I don't want to give any more money to Matrix. If Shaun ever goes solo again or is with another company, I'll be first in line to purchase. I haven't slammed Puresim at all, nor am I looking for any fights.

Edit: Except perhaps the other day when I was pissed off about something at work. I quickly apologized for that post and misunderstanding. Shaun has always seemed like a stand up guy to me.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Honestly, I can't answer that, only because I haven't played OOTP in nearly two years, and I never used that feature. Is there something specific you're looking for that I might be able to check out?

Not really, I was just looking for a "general idea". I recall in OOTP playing historical years that the game engine attempted to match incoming players with proper skill sets, positions, etc., and it did an okay job. I never got the feel, however, that the "Mike Schmidt" that appeared in the rookie draft was going to havea career anything like the real deal. I don't know how the engine looked ahead into players careers, how well the player development model had to correct for certain real players that peaked early/late, etc.

When PureSim does the import of a historical player into the rookie draft, is that the last time the game engine "looks" at that players statisticls from Lahman? Or does the game refer back to Lahman to make sure it isn't getting ahead of itself (or behind)?

I imagine it would be hard for a game engine to recreate a player such as Nolan Ryan, since a good portion of his makeup would be off-the-charts. Similarly for Barry Bonds - in his career, would he be a huge power hitter from beginning to end, peaking in the middle (as most players do and any reasonable game engine would model), or would the game steer him towards his real life output, i.e. an explosion of power at the tail end?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Yeah... I gotta agree with that. Game developers need to be a little more mature on message boards.

Meh, I don't think so. I mean, they're people just like the rest of us. And sure, they come here to talk about their games (or in Jim's case..his game is the reason we're all here..which has to be feel pretty good, even if people whine) but I tend to separate the "game developer" end of things, especially on a message board that's not of their own game, versus someone posting who just happens also to develop a game.

After all, why the hell does it all matter? For every person that reads some snarky post, they were probably unlikely to get the game anyway. The people who were going to or at least on the fence, are probably more likely to get it if they hear good reviews or like the game.

Not "Well, that guy is an asshole. I'm never giving him my money." I realize there are people out there like that, but...at least these guys are responsive. When one of my EA Sports games has a problem or when my Creative MP3 player was acting crappy, I'm pretty sure none of the engineers or developers took even a minute to write a snarky response, let alone a helpful one. Because they don't give a damn. Just because someone makes a game doesn't mean they magically owe any of us something, even if we DID buy the game. Remember the signs in stores in old days, "All Sales Final" well....we get patches and support and developers who implore that they'll do what they can to help.

That's no small thing.

FWIW, people all just need to chill the hell out. It's just a message board, agree to disagree, post, go have a beer, kiss your wife (or your dog...or your mom) and be happy. Life's too short for all this crankiness all the time and its like there is always some drama starting up around here, for no damn reason at all.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Not really, I was just looking for a "general idea". I recall in OOTP playing historical years that the game engine attempted to match incoming players with proper skill sets, positions, etc., and it did an okay job. I never got the feel, however, that the "Mike Schmidt" that appeared in the rookie draft was going to havea career anything like the real deal. I don't know how the engine looked ahead into players careers, how well the player development model had to correct for certain real players that peaked early/late, etc.

When PureSim does the import of a historical player into the rookie draft, is that the last time the game engine "looks" at that players statisticls from Lahman? Or does the game refer back to Lahman to make sure it isn't getting ahead of itself (or behind)?

I imagine it would be hard for a game engine to recreate a player such as Nolan Ryan, since a good portion of his makeup would be off-the-charts. Similarly for Barry Bonds - in his career, would he be a huge power hitter from beginning to end, peaking in the middle (as most players do and any reasonable game engine would model), or would the game steer him towards his real life output, i.e. an explosion of power at the tail end?

Because the game was (at least, 6.5) so customizable, you really have to tweak it mightily to get the sort of stats you want. Even down to editing particular players over time to get a certain "level" of outcomes. For some, that's annoying because they think it ought to be there already.

I tend to like the overcustomization, because it lets you create your own gaming experience to a certain degree, which is fun. But no, I've seen some pretty wacky things and haven't, across the board seen circumstances where all the careers of people are around the same.

But I do weird things with the game, so..I'm sure people who have "researched" these things would have a different answer. The OOTP boards actually has some interesting stuff on a question like that (or at least, I've seen stuff similar).

Just hit search and stay out of Off-Topic and it should be okay. lol

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Not really, I was just looking for a "general idea". I recall in OOTP playing historical years that the game engine attempted to match incoming players with proper skill sets, positions, etc., and it did an okay job. I never got the feel, however, that the "Mike Schmidt" that appeared in the rookie draft was going to havea career anything like the real deal. I don't know how the engine looked ahead into players careers, how well the player development model had to correct for certain real players that peaked early/late, etc.

When PureSim does the import of a historical player into the rookie draft, is that the last time the game engine "looks" at that players statisticls from Lahman? Or does the game refer back to Lahman to make sure it isn't getting ahead of itself (or behind)?

I imagine it would be hard for a game engine to recreate a player such as Nolan Ryan, since a good portion of his makeup would be off-the-charts. Similarly for Barry Bonds - in his career, would he be a huge power hitter from beginning to end, peaking in the middle (as most players do and any reasonable game engine would model), or would the game steer him towards his real life output, i.e. an explosion of power at the tail end?

Well, I don't know what goes on under the hood, but I can post some screen shots of some career stats for a few players that I ran in my 25-year experiment, and that might give you an idea how they've done.

I'll say this much - most of the big-name players that come into the draft every year get signed right away. The potential they have is pretty obvious, which is really only fair - if it were handled any other way, a human player would crush the AI on name recognition.

[DaddyTorgo]

wow. and here i thought i had put out the fire. heh. oh well

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Well, I don't know what goes on under the hood, but I can post some screen shots of some career stats for a few players that I ran in my 25-year experiment, and that might give you an idea how they've done.

I'll say this much - most of the big-name players that come into the draft every year get signed right away. The potential they have is pretty obvious, which is really only fair - if it were handled any other way, a human player would crush the AI on name recognition.

That would be very very cool.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Maybe I missed something, but wasn't it Hell Atlantic that had a problem with the house photos?

{shrug} Dunno whether it was HA but it wasn't me. I've taken issue with Jim over some other stuff but not about his house.

[Joe]

why is the game just called puresim with no mention of what sport it is for? it is confusing.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

why is the game just called puresim with no mention of what sport it is for? it is confusing.

becuz no1 wants 2 type out puresim baseball man

[Franklinnoble]

Actually, the full title of the game is PureSim Baseball 2007. Since we're in a community of gamers that knows what FOF, TCY, BBCF, and other "short names" mean, and there are no other PureSim titles, I don't think abbreviating it is out of line.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Actually, the full title of the game is PureSim Baseball 2007. Since we're in a community of gamers that knows what FOF, TCY, BBCF, and other "short names" mean, and there are no other PureSim titles, I don't think abbreviating it is out of line.

But those other games are much more well known.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

But those other games are much more well known.

I don't know that I'd consider BBCF to be "much more well known" than PureSim.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't know that I'd consider BBCF to be "much more well known" than PureSim.

As this is a forum related to football text sim, I'd say BBCF would be "much more well known" to this community than any baseball game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

As this is a forum related to football text sim, I'd say BBCF would be "much more well known" to this community than any baseball game.

This forum is far from just football & I'll stand by what I said. Plus there's the advantage of PureSim simply being around through various versions & development a lot longer than BBCF existed.

[MizzouRah]

This forum hasn't been related to a football text sim since, what about 2 years ago?

[sovereignstar]

Anyone that thinks BBCF is much more well-known than PureSim on this board is smoking crack. For starters (and enders because this thread is getting more stupid), PureSim has been in development for over 7 years.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

... PureSim has been in development for over 7 years.

Maximum Football comparison in 3... 2... 1...

[Toddzilla]

BBCF? Didn't that game all but die during the time it took to create the 1.1 patch?

[Joe]

I knew what BBCF was and didnt have to google it to find out. probably just me.

[Lorena]

bump