So The Superbowl is Over (Unofficial 2007 NFL Draft/Free Agency Thread)

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Dola

Last I checked, Madden is nothing like how the NFL really is and the stature of a player.

D00dz, dat guys got a killerz spin move! (Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, A, B, Select, Start)

actually to be clear he has a 'sick' spin move. sick meaning good in this case.

[RedKingGold]

Also, nowhere did I say that Freeney "sucked". I simply think that he is a one dimensional power rusher who has little impact against the run (think Charles Haley). That does not mean I think he is not a good player, just not the next coming of Reggie White.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

For future reference; stating an argument then discrediting in the next paragraph is usually not the best way to prove the validity of that argument.

As I said earlier in this thread after you made this absurd statement. The idea that Freeney has just one move is circa 2001. He has broadened his game substantially. This is still his go-to move (and is very effective I might add), but he has a lot larger bag of tricks than just the spin move.

[st.cronin]

My impression of Freeney is that he is nowhere near as effective as he was a couple of years ago. I could be wrong, though.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by wade moore

...but he has a lot larger bag of tricks than just the spin move.

Such as?

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Yeah, I think Freeney has regressed or people know how to play him better. I just see a lot of games where he has little or no impact. Now, I will discredit my comment with the next statement. DEs make their money with the pass rush, so it doesn't help when teams run a lot against the Colts. However . . . Freeney has not improved his run defense to help out there. I'm not sure his green bars are ever going to fill up on run defense.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Such as?

A power rush, a speed rush just around the outside, the spin move, a move where he leverages low and then quickly comes back high and just goes past them...

I don't know all of the details.. there's only so many moves for a DE... But I know that the spin move is far from his only tool. If you think it is, you should watch some more Colts games.

I will grant you that his run defense is lacking, I'm not supporting him there.

[sony]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Dola

Last I checked, Madden is nothing like how the NFL really is and the stature of a player.

D00dz, dat guys got a killerz spin move! (Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, A, B, Select, Start)

Huh? Who said anything about Madden? OOooookaaaaay.... So you're telling me D.F. is not capable of doing the spin move irl? Only in a a video game called Madden? Good 1... /sarcasm off

Besides I'm talking about you guys hating on D.F. saying he only has 1 move... rofl

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by sony

Huh? Who said anything about Madden? OOooookaaaaay.... So you're telling me D.F. is not capable of doing the spin move irl? Only in a a video game called Madden? Good 1... /sarcasm off

Besides I'm talking about you guys hating on D.F. saying he only has 1 move... rofl

The words are yours.

[TroyF]

Freeney is much more than just the spin move. He's got a nice bull rush and a quick little dipsy do move that can get him outside fast. (he probably overused that one this year, which hurt in the run game as well as making it easier for QB's to step up in the pocket)

The Colts were run on so much and were in so many close games because fo that, that they didn't get thrown on a lot. I don't think you can spin it, he had a pretty average year. But he's also not a one move guy and hasn't been for quite sometime. He has his warts, but I'd certainly love to have him rushing the passer for my team.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

dola--

Though, for the life of me, I wonder if anyone can really know if David Carr sucks or not. I have some idea that if you put Tom Brady or Sage Rosenfels on that offense, the results would look about the same as with David Carr. At some point, you need more than 1 good WR on an offense in order to see how good a quarterback is.

This is my point. One year in a new system with no real upgrades in the offensive talent around him is a pretty short commitment. Especially when you gave up on the talent and potential at the QB position in the draft last year. Maybe he was terrible in practice or just unable to pick up on the changes that Kubiak wanted. I don't know. But after givng him an big bonus last year and giving up on the chances to get Bush, Young, Leinart, Cutler etc. in the draft, I think you have to give him one more shot. Upgrade the talent on the offfensive side of the ball this offseason and evaluate him then. If after that, he still has not shown you anything, then you look for a different QB.

[Daimyo]

Freeney sure draws a lot of double and triple teams for a guy with "only one move." Its always awesome when teams think he is overrated and try to play him without help. He usually ends up with 2-3 sacks and a FF in games like that...

This year more often than not teams changed their offense to account for him and it really hurt his stats. As an example re-watch the KC-Indy wildcard game when KC was forced to keep Gonzalez back as a blocker the whole game neutralizing a big part of their offense. Things like that just don't show up in the individual stats, but have a huge impact on games.

Everyone knows Freeney's strength is against the pass. The Colt's run defense (of which he was a part) was so terrible that no one threw on the Colts this year. That is a weakness of his (and why he will never be on the level of a guy like Seymour), but it is one that can be overcome at the team level. In the right system with the right help he can be the most dangerous guy on the field in any given week and that's why he is so valuable.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Everyone knows Freeney's strength is against the pass. The Colt's run defense (of which he was a part) was so terrible that no one threw on the Colts this year. That is a weakness of his (and why he will never be on the level of a guy like Seymour), but it is one that can be overcome at the team level. In the right system with the right help he can be the most dangerous guy on the field in any given week and that's why he is so valuable.

This is pretty much my argument. I am not disputing that Freeney is a great pass rusher. However, a player who is great against the pass and so-so against the run is a "one-dimensional" player. That is its definition.

While I agree Freeney can have a great impact on a football game, it is probably only within that system. Freeney's going to be paid like the highest paid defensive lineman in the league this off-season. Because he is simply not a complete defensive end, he is going to be overpaid, IMO.

Also, (with you being the exception), I get a laugh out of all the people who say, "Freeney's sack total was down because of the Colt's horrible run defense and the team ran against them all the time." Isn't Freeney part of the Colt's horrible run defense? I sincerely doubt you can seperate the two.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by wade moore

A power rush, a speed rush just around the outside, the spin move, a move where he leverages low and then quickly comes back high and just goes past them...

I don't know all of the details.. there's only so many moves for a DE... But I know that the spin move is far from his only tool. If you think it is, you should watch some more Colts games.

I will grant you that his run defense is lacking, I'm not supporting him there.

I think we're arguing about two seperate things and we're in agreement about more than we think.

You agree that Freeney is bad against the run, and I agree that Freeny is good against the pass. Maybe I was a little hasty in my "one-move" definition of Freeney as I honestly have not watched enough game tape to back that assertion.

However, I do stand by my point that he is overrated in the sense that he has little impact against the run and is mainly a Charles Haley type of player who is only concered with getting to the quarterback (not implying that Freeney is as mentally unstable as Haley, just that they have similar talents)

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I think we're arguing about two seperate things and we're in agreement about more than we think.

You agree that Freeney is bad against the run, and I agree that Freeny is good against the pass. Maybe I was a little hasty in my "one-move" definition of Freeney as I honestly have not watched enough game tape to back that assertion.

However, I do stand by my point that he is overrated in the sense that he has little impact against the run and is mainly a Charles Haley type of player who is only concered with getting to the quarterback (not implying that Freeney is as mentally unstable as Haley, just that they have similar talents)

I agree for the most part. I think he's not as bad at the run as many think, but he's certainly not very good either.

I was merely disputing the idea that he had the spin and that's it. If you say he has the pass rush and that's it, fine, i'm ok with that. He has a pass rush that includes a bag of tricks and a run defense that leads a lot to be desired.

And yes, he'll be "overpaid" based on the fact that a premier pass rusher is so hard to find. However, to find guys more valuable than him you're talking about the cream of the crop because he is just that good at rushing the passer imo.. so while he may not be as valuable as a Richard Seymour, you have to pay him because there just aren't many Richard Seymours out there.

[Dr. Sak]

I heard that the Giants are going to release Lavar Arrington

[Logan]

Already done, along with Carlos Emmons and Petitgout.

[st.cronin]

If I were a fan of any team but the Colts and Patriots I'd be thrilled to have David Carr.

[Daimyo]

Holy shit! Chargers fire Schottenheimer!

http://www.chargers.com/news/press-r...e-20070212.php

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Hmmm, Lavar Arrington to the Patriots? I can't decide whether I like that idea or not. We need young and fast, but not undisciplined. As I see it, right now the Pats are looking at Lance Briggs, Adalius Thomas, Donnie Edwards, and Carlos Polk for some type of FA LB help. Man, we need some young LBs.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Man, we need some young LBs.

no joke

[st.cronin]

dola

Also the Pats could use a wr.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola

Also the Pats could use a wr.

no joke. unfortunately, there are virtually none in FA. I think we ought to be trading for one - and somebody better than Doug Gabriel.

We did it once before when we desperately needed a RB, and just before the draft, we traded for Cory Dillon. Seeing how we were damn close to trading for Javon Walker last year, I think this is probably going to happen. Not Moss though.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola

Also the Pats could use a wr.

I'm shocked this wasn't preceded with:

NEWSFLASH!!!

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Not Moss though.

I know that I've bought too much into the whole media lovefest over Brady and Belichick.

But it seems that if any locker room has the ability to turn Randy Moss into a world class player again--even if just for a couple of seasons--it is the Patriots' locker room, controlled by Brady and Belichick.

I would never actually recommend that a team trade for Moss, but I wonder if maybe it is a chance worth taking for the Patriots. They did it once with Dillon and it worked wonders.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I would never actually recommend that a team trade for Moss, but I wonder if maybe it is a chance worth taking for the Patriots. They did it once with Dillon and it worked wonders.

Totally different situation. Moss doesn't make any sense for the Pats.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Totally different situation. Moss doesn't make any sense for the Pats.

I'll grant you that the Moss and Dillon situations do not have a one-to-one correspondence.

But why doesn't Moss make any sense for the Pats. They need a WR. He's a potentially great WR who made be on a fire-sale trading block. Does this not make sense as a football move?

Now, his attitude is the big question mark, of course, but, as noted above, if you beleive that Brady/Belichick can control his attitude, then I can't see why the Pats would not be interested.

Of course, if you don't beleive that Brady/Belichick can control him, then it makes no sense. And, if I had to put money on it, I would bet that Brady/Belechick can't control him.

Still, if they were to beleive their own press clippings about how they have created a team atmosphere of winning that transecends mere sports and begins to approach the aethereal plane . . . I could see it happening.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'll grant you that the Moss and Dillon situations do not have a one-to-one correspondence.

But why doesn't Moss make any sense for the Pats. They need a WR. He's a potentially great WR who made be on a fire-sale trading block. Does this not make sense as a football move?

Now, his attitude is the big question mark, of course, but, as noted above, if you beleive that Brady/Belichick can control his attitude, then I can't see why the Pats would not be interested.

Of course, if you don't beleive that Brady/Belichick can control him, then it makes no sense. And, if I had to put money on it, I would bet that Brady/Belechick can't control him.

Still, if they were to beleive their own press clippings about how they have created a team atmosphere of winning that transecends mere sports and begins to approach the aethereal plane . . . I could see it happening.

Dillon was not an attitude guy in the same way that Moss is ... Dillon's issue with the Bengals was a contract/playing time dispute. It was a situation where the Pats looked at it, and said "well, we can make him happy." Not that they could control his attitude; that they could meet his demands. You can't do that with Moss and field a winning team.

Moss is a pot-smoking tool. The Pats won't touch him with a 100 foot pole.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Moss is a pot-smoking tool.

But see, he . . . umm . . .

I mean that it's always possible that he, uhh . . .

Urr . . . even if that's true, you aren't really considering . . . ummm . . .

Ah, fuck it. He's a pot-smoking tool.

Checkmate.

Well played, sir.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by sony

To say Freeney only has `1 move, the upward swim` is pure stupidity . I'm not even a Colts/D.F. fan but I know NFL football.

Well, finally, we have someone who knows NFL football here. So we have IMTG and Huckleberry to cover college football, and we have sony to handle the NFL.

Just as a warning, if any of you assholes on this board try to take over my Arena Football crown, I'll feed you to the VooDoo's mack linebacker.

HOLLA

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Well, finally, we have someone who knows NFL football here. So we have IMTG and Huckleberry to cover college football, and we have sony to handle the NFL.

Just as a warning, if any of you assholes on this board try to take over my Arena Football crown, I'll feed you to the VooDoo's mack linebacker.

HOLLA

As long as we're signing up, I've got broomball.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

As long as we're signing up, I've got broomball.

dibs on that sport they play in the rest of the world where you kick the ball.

[Galaril]

The Titans are likely to get either Samuel or Clements to go with Pacman. They are one of the top teams with Salary cap space and should be willing to spend some on aCB and maybe a MLB like Adalius or a DE but not Freeney.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

As long as we're signing up, I've got broomball.

You spicy redhead, you.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

You spicy redhead, you.

Every good broomball team needs a spicy redhead.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

This is my point. One year in a new system with no real upgrades in the offensive talent around him is a pretty short commitment. Especially when you gave up on the talent and potential at the QB position in the draft last year. Maybe he was terrible in practice or just unable to pick up on the changes that Kubiak wanted. I don't know. But after givng him an big bonus last year and giving up on the chances to get Bush, Young, Leinart, Cutler etc. in the draft, I think you have to give him one more shot. Upgrade the talent on the offfensive side of the ball this offseason and evaluate him then. If after that, he still has not shown you anything, then you look for a different QB.

I tended to think the same thing before I went to a Texans game. David Carr plays scared. Who knows, it's probably from playing behind a crap OL for so long. But the bottom line is that the Texans consistently had guys open beyond the line to gain but Carr would always bail out to his dump off. At times it looked to me like he wasn't even going through his progressions before hitting the RB or the 2-yard pattern. It seemed like he made up his mind before the snap where he was going with the ball and the difference between Carr and a guy that throws a lot of picks with that strategy is that Carr always picks the low-risk two yard pass. This kind of play does wonders for a QB's completion percentage but doesn't help his team win games.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Dillon was not an attitude guy in the same way that Moss is ... Dillon's issue with the Bengals was a contract/playing time dispute. It was a situation where the Pats looked at it, and said "well, we can make him happy." Not that they could control his attitude; that they could meet his demands. You can't do that with Moss and field a winning team.

Moss is a pot-smoking tool. The Pats won't touch him with a 100 foot pole.

Yep, that's the big difference. Dillon played hard on the field. Moss takes plays off and doesn't try hard. I also believe Moss has lost a step. Regardless of his extracurricular stuff, I don't think the Pats are interested in a guy who loafs on the field.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Galaril

The Titans are likely to get either Samuel or Clements to go with Pacman. They are one of the top teams with Salary cap space and should be willing to spend some on aCB and maybe a MLB like Adalius or a DE but not Freeney.

I know they may want him, but I am almost positive that Samuel will be franchised.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Yep, that's the big difference. Dillon played hard on the field. Moss takes plays off and doesn't try hard. I also believe Moss has lost a step. Regardless of his extracurricular stuff, I don't think the Pats are interested in a guy who loafs on the field.

Well you just have to catch moss in a good mood.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

I know they may want him, but I am almost positive that Samuel will be franchised.

now how exactly could you be almost positive


ooh, maybe we have a mole

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

now how exactly could you be almost positive


ooh, maybe we have a mole

I'm not saying Samuel will ever play for the Patriots again. I'm just saying he will be franchised. There is no way in hell the Patriots will let him walk. They would rather trade him a'la Tebucky Jones a couple of years ago.

[flere-imsaho]

Sorry, I'm probably late to the conversation....

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Also, (with you being the exception), I get a laugh out of all the people who say, "Freeney's sack total was down because of the Colt's horrible run defense and the team ran against them all the time." Isn't Freeney part of the Colt's horrible run defense? I sincerely doubt you can seperate the two.

I tend to think that Freeney's sack total wasn't down this year so much as it was inflated in years past. One thing the Colts really did differently this year was run more of a ball-control offense, perhaps to give their defense a bit of a break compared to years past, when they'd score in 2 minutes and hand it back to the defense.

In years past, the Colts would typically build up a big lead and other teams would chase. In this scenario, the Colts' pass rushers could tee off on the opposition's QB, and that's exactly what they did. Not as many opportunities this year.

Anyway, I don't know if that theory's borne out by the evidence, but it's the way I see it.

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If I were a fan of any team but the Colts and Patriots I'd be thrilled to have David Carr.

Even the Saints (Brees' non-throwing elbow notwithstanding)?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

I'm not saying Samuel will ever play for the Patriots again. I'm just saying he will be franchised. There is no way in hell the Patriots will let him walk. They would rather trade him a'la Tebucky Jones a couple of years ago.

Sounds like what everyone said about D.Branch and Ty Law who was better and probably is better than Samuel but old.

[JPhillips]

Cronin left off several teams that wouldn't be better with Carr. Bengals, Saints, Chargers, 49ers, Rams at least.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The Lions have given Dre Bly permission to seek a trade. He's in the last year of his contract and is owed a lot of money. He's a pro-bowl corner (thought not really). He's a decent cover guy who has quite a knack for big plays. He's been the best player on the Lions secondary for years, but that's not really saying much.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The Lions have given Dre Bly permission to seek a trade. He's in the last year of his contract and is owed a lot of money. He's a pro-bowl corner (thought not really). He's a decent cover guy who has quite a knack for big plays. He's been the best player on the Lions secondary for years, but that's not really saying much.

I say good riddance. Bly has been good but lets be honest, he gives up as many big plays as hes stopped and his knack for creating turnovers has suffered in the past year. While I shudder to think what we may look like in our secondary next year, it really can't be worse then what its been.

And hey, Daniel Bullocks is legit. So only three more spots to fill!

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

If I were a fan of any team but the Colts and Patriots I'd be thrilled to have David Carr.

Ummm. . . what?

The Broncos, Titans and Cardinals all have young QB's of the future and I doubt any of their fans would be thrilled to have Carr over their guys. The Saints have Brees, the Chargers have Rivers, the Rams Bulger, the Eagles McNabb, the Seahawks have Hasselbach. Combined with Brady and Manning, we already have 10 cities who wouldn't be all that thrilled of Carr were their QB.

I have the same impression of Carr Huck does. I think the early years of being beaten to a pulp still impact him. He's always seemed jumpy to me.

[flere-imsaho]

Question is, does Carr go somewhere else as a starter, as a backup, or as an entrant into a fight for a starting place? Depending on the answer, there are definitely different teams who'd be interested (also considering the price).

Anyway, here's a list of NFL teams - if someone's bored, go to town!

Philadelphia Eagles
NY Giants
Dallas Cowboys
Washington Redskins
Green Bay Packers
Minnesota Vikings
Detroit Lions
Chicago Bears
Atlanta Falcons
New Orleans Saints
Carolina Panthers
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Seattle Seahawks
St. Louis Rams
Arizona Cardinals
San Francisco 49ers
New England Patriots
New York Jets
Buffalo Bills
Miami Dolphins
Pittsburgh Steelers
Baltimore Ravens
Cincinnati Bengals
Cleveland Browns
Indianapolis Colts
Jacksonville Jaguars
Houston Texans
Tennessee Titans
San Diego Chargers
Denver Broncos
Kansas City Chiefs
Oakland Raiders

[stevew]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Question is, does Carr go somewhere else as a starter, as a backup, or as an entrant into a fight for a starting place? Depending on the answer, there are definitely different teams who'd be interested (also considering the price).

Anyway, here's a list of NFL teams - if someone's bored, go to town!

Philadelphia Eagles-backup
NY Giants-fight, probably backup though
Dallas Cowboys-backup
Washington Redskins-fight
Green Bay Packers-backup
Minnesota Vikings-fight
Detroit Lions-starter
Chicago Bears-fight
Atlanta Falcons-backup
New Orleans Saints-backup
Carolina Panthers-backup
Tampa Bay Buccaneers-starter
Seattle Seahawks-backup
St. Louis Rams-backup
Arizona Cardinals-backup
San Francisco 49ers-backup
New England Patriots-backup
New York Jets-backup
Buffalo Bills-fight
Miami Dolphins-starter/fight..depends on culpeckers knee
Pittsburgh Steelers-backup
Baltimore Ravens-backup
Cincinnati Bengals-backup
Cleveland Browns-starter
Indianapolis Colts-backup
Jacksonville Jaguars-fight
Houston Texans-not sure how to answer
Tennessee Titans-backup
San Diego Chargers-backup
Denver Broncos-backup
Kansas City Chiefs-backup
Oakland Raiders-starter

Yeah, so in actuality, like 3-4 teams would be happy to have him as a starter, and another half dozen or so would give him play for their top job.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by stevew

Tampa Bay Buccaneers-starter

Do you think they are done with Simms?