2007-08 NBA Playoffs thread

[Brian Swartz]

It is simple. Beat the first guy and force the defense to either stay at home and let you have an easy layup or shot. Or they can provide help defense and the person who is open should be making his way toward the basket. Utah with Stockon and Malone were known for this... The problem I saw with LeBron was he would make his move with the intention of passing and not attacking the basketball.

Except that if the defense fears your drive more than your shot and commits to giving you a cushion, you aren't going to consistently get past that first guy. Also, against good teams a perimeter player will rotate into the lane to cover the help defender, so what is open is a pass back outside(watch any SA-PHO game from the last few years for examples).

As far as Stockton-Malone ... their most common result was an open shot for Malone of the type that LeBron is missing against Boston.

I meant killer instinct. But you have a valid point which makes last season's run to the finals so odd. How did he do it last season but not this season?

They have someone different personnell this year, first of all(their rebounding and perimeter defense are both down as a result). Secondly, they played nobody as good as Boston in getting to the finals last year. Thirdly, against the Pistons he was making his jumper somewhat more often than he is now(espescially of course in Game Five). Fourthly, Gibson was providing outside shooting.

[Vince]

At the risk of being an absolute jerk, it's "dominant," not "dominate." Dominate is a verb.

That being said...even terrible NBA players can hit open shots. If LeBron is beating one guy and having 2-3 sag on him, that leaves only 1 or 2 defenders not paying attention to LeBron - and he's still taking the majority of the shots on the team (24 tonight, with 2nd best only 12 shots taken). He needs to pass the ball more if they're so focused on him, crappy supporting cast be damned.

[INDalltheway]

The Spurs are annoying.. That's all I got.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Vince

At the risk of being an absolute jerk, it's "dominant," not "dominate." Dominate is a verb.

That being said...even terrible NBA players can hit open shots. If LeBron is beating one guy and having 2-3 sag on him, that leaves only 1 or 2 defenders not paying attention to LeBron - and he's still taking the majority of the shots on the team (24 tonight, with 2nd best only 12 shots taken). He needs to pass the ball more if they're so focused on him, crappy supporting cast be damned.

Well, you're not being a jerk, but rather taking ultra-small forcepts and plucking a piece of plankton out of an ocean full of them.

As far as LeBron goes...dude needs to get out of Cleveland. It reeks of Maravich or Archie Manning status. He needs to play out this contract, and then go play for Brooklyn Nets, who by that time will have Devin Harris, no Vince Carter, and possibly a few awesome draft picks.

[stevew]

2008 lebron is settling. 2007 lebron had a chip on his shoulder. The cavs will never do anything till they get another legit player. If that day ever happens, they will probably win 3-4 titles in 5 years.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Noop

Ergh... No. If it were Micheal Jordan, Kobe, Larry Bird or any number of great players they would have found a way to make the Celtics pay. So what is your experience with the NBA other then sitting on your ass and watching. I am going to guess none.

When I said we have common ground, I meant in relation to you talking out of your ass (as anything I say in here would be coming out of my ass too).

That said, I still think you're wrong.

[rkmsuf]

Man the Cavs suck. When you have Wally World and Delonte West starting for you, you got problems.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

When I said we have common ground, I meant in relation to you talking out of your ass (as anything I say in here would be coming out of my ass too).

That said, I still think you're wrong.

Ok then. Thank you for playing.

[st.cronin]

One of the reasons I find the NBA hard to watch at times is that so many teams, when they are down by, say, 12 points in the 3rd quarter, just visibly give up. Even in the playoffs.

[MrBug708]

I was having a conversation with a firend and we were talking about the elite players in the NBA right now. The subject of the three best NBA players came up and I picked Kobe, Lebron, and Chris Paul. He argued that Duncan and Garnett and even Wade still belong ont he same tier. Was wondering everyones thought on that subject

[Logan]

They're still top tier, but those 3 would probably be 4-6 behind the guys you listed.

[Eaglesfan27]

I think Duncan and Kobe are the top tier with LeBron, Paul, Garnett, and Wade just behind them. Howard belongs in that conversation as well.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I think Duncan and Kobe are the top tier with LeBron, Paul, Garnett, and Wade just behind them. Howard belongs in that conversation as well.

I think in years past, I would agree, but Manu carried that team this year, not Duncan. He's obviously a valuable piece to their success, but I think he's starting to drop at this point. I'm not saying he isn't a surefire HAOF, I think that he's probably not quite the same player he was before. I think that he's in the next tier still

[Noop]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I was having a conversation with a firend and we were talking about the elite players in the NBA right now. The subject of the three best NBA players came up and I picked Kobe, Lebron, and Chris Paul. He argued that Duncan and Garnett and even Wade still belong ont he same tier. Was wondering everyones thought on that subject

I think it would be Kobe, Chris Paul, LeBron (despite my berating his performance last night) I think Wade was there but has fallen to the tier just underneath those three.

Tier 1 : Paul, Kobe, LeBron
Tier 2 : Wade, Howard, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady(Barely)

Just my two cents.

[Brian Swartz]

I think in years past, I would agree, but Manu carried that team this year, not Duncan. He's obviously a valuable piece to their success, but I think he's starting to drop at this point. I'm not saying he isn't a surefire HAOF, I think that he's probably not quite the same player he was before. I think that he's in the next tier still

I totally disagree with this, but it is a popular sentiment this year. There is still a HUGE difference between the impact Duncan and Manu have on the games. For the last four years, Duncan's minutes have been down from what they were prior to that in the regular season, but his numbers this year(34.0 mpg, 19.3 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.0 bpg) are right in line with what he's done over that four-year period. His FG% is down from an outstanding year last year but is about what it was the two years previous and his FT% has not been higher than this year's 73% except in 99-00 and 01-02.

As for Manu, he missed twice as many games as Duncan did(8 to 4). He scored more than Duncan this season but when you add in all the other things that Tim does -- he's the basis for the Spurs team on both ends of the floor far more often than Manu is -- it really isn't even close.

I'd put Kobe, LeBron, and, Duncan in the top tier with Garnett, Howard, and Paul close behind them. Everybody else you could throw in there(Wade, McGrady, etc.) has issues. If Paul keeps playing like he has he'll move up to the top, ditto for Howard and KG if he comes through in the playoffs this year.

[MrBug708]

Not going to argue with the premise of your argument as I think Duncan is one of the best of all time. I thinkt he real catalyst of the Spurs is still Duncan and he's also made a great career out of ducking the better post player of the opposing team.

[Neon_Chaos]

Kobe and LeBron on a tier of their own.

I'm not sold on Paul yet. Let's see how teams prepare for him next season.

[larrymcg421]

What the hell is Jon Barry smoking? How the hell can you say that this game is more important for the Celtics than the Cavs?

[Young Drachma]

Chris Paul is having a great playoffs.

[stevew]

This Ben Wallace free throw shooting was funny when he wasn't on my team

[stevew]

This team seems to play pretty well when Delonte West dominates the ball. The LeBron "pound it into the ground for 15 seconds and jack an offbalanced J" offense is pretty easy to defend.

[Groundhog]

It's sorta hard to get used to Cleveland having a PG who can not only knock down open jump shots, but ALSO attack the basket! It's always been one or the other... or neither.

[MrBug708]

Hell of a game. Kobe's back was hurting in the second half and he shouldn't have been shooting as much because Gasol and Odom were tearing it up. On the flip side, Lakers couldnt stop Deron Williams

[miami_fan]

This home court advantage thing sort of means something huh?

[INDalltheway]

I really hope someone else just saw LeBron's dunk.. That was the perfect exclamation point.

[Groundhog]

The NBA should just save us all some time and credit all remaining home teams with the victory for the rest of the playoffs!

Congratulations to the LA Lakers, winners over the Boston Celtics 4-2!

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

I really hope someone else just saw LeBron's dunk.. That was the perfect exclamation point.

Yeah, that was sick.

I don't think either of these teams will beat Detroit, if it weren't for Dallas last year I'd say the Celtics are the worst 66+ win team in league history.

[Brian Swartz]

The NBA should just save us all some time and credit all remaining home teams with the victory for the rest of the playoffs!

Congratulations to the LA Lakers, winners over the Boston Celtics 4-2!

Wouldn't that be Boston 4, LA 3?

[Mantle2600]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The NBA should just save us all some time and credit all remaining home teams with the victory for the rest of the playoffs!

Congratulations to the LA Lakers, winners over the Boston Celtics 4-2!

I thought I heard the Celtics would have homecourt throughout the playoffs?

[Mantle2600]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Yeah, that was sick.

I don't think either of these teams will beat Detroit, if it weren't for Dallas last year I'd say the Celtics are the worst 66+ win team in league history.

Yeah because we could'nt beat Detroit last year either.

[Groundhog]

OK, same diff. :P

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

I really hope someone else just saw LeBron's dunk.. That was the perfect exclamation point.

Yeah, that was a great dunk. I don't know what I was thinking the other day. I guess I was thinking his jump shooting is too poor, but he clearly belongs in the tier with Kobe and Duncan. This will be amazing if he pulls off this series against the Celtics.

[DaddyTorgo]

C's fucking gave this game away in the 4th quarter - they went away from Garnett in the block and settled for contested crap-shots and lost control of the game.

[Noop]

I thought LeBron played the way I felt he should be playing beat that first guy and dish it to the guys attacking the basket, 13 assists shows me that if they continue running this on the Celtics they will beat them 4-2.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Noop

I thought LeBron played the way I felt he should be playing beat that first guy and dish it to the guys attacking the basket, 13 assists shows me that if they continue running this on the Celtics they will beat them 4-2.

they gotta win a game in boston first

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

they gotta win a game in boston first

If they play the way they did tonight they will win in 6.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Mantle2600

Yeah because we could'nt beat Detroit last year either.

Detroit has really stepped it up since their slow start against Philadelphia, they were really impressive beating Orlando in game four without Billups. They'll likely have plenty of rest as I don't expect my Magic to get a win tomorrow night and just feel they're not going to be denied this season after being upset by Miami and Cleveland in the conference finals these past few years.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Noop

If they play the way they did tonight they will win in 6.

I don't think so.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't think so.

Of course you don't think so.

As for Detroit versus Cleveland(should they get pass the Celtics) if LeBron takes it to the stratosphere then I don't think Detroit can beat them. However if LeBron plays like his normal self I think Detroit beats them in 6.

[stevew]

I really expect nothing out of the Cavs this year, but getting back into this series has pleasantly suprised me. I didn't get to see tonights game, but I've heard that Brown is finally starting to make some adjustments.

[Mantle2600]

I think it's very possible Detroit could beat us if we can get past the Celtics, I'm just sick of everyone saying "can't beat Detroit". We did last year and we took them to 7 games the year before that.

By the way according to that logic, we're not gonna beat the Celtics either because a couple people said so.

And we could'nt beat the Wizards because a couple people said so. (Actually it was probaly just that fat one.)

[Mantle2600]

Originally Posted by stevew

I really expect nothing out of the Cavs this year, but getting back into this series has pleasantly suprised me. I didn't get to see tonights game, but I've heard that Brown is finally starting to make some adjustments.

It was a great 4 quarter game, no 24 points in 1 quarter followed up by 9 or whatever it was in game 2.

[Jas_lov]

So Cleveland wins two games at home and everyone gives up on the Celtics, the best team in the league. The Cavs have to win one in Boston before I write the Celtics off. In three of the series, the team with home court advantage has lost 2 straight but they're all still in control until they lose a game at home. I hope all 3 series go the full 7 games.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

So Cleveland wins two games at home and everyone gives up on the Celtics, the best team in the league. The Cavs have to win one in Boston before I write the Celtics off. In three of the series, the team with home court advantage has lost 2 straight but they're all still in control until they lose a game at home. I hope all 3 series go the full 7 games.

The Cavs will have to win the next game in Boston before I write the Celtics off, but I'd like to see the Celtics win at least one game on the road SOMEWHERE if they are to be considered a legit threat. Two losses at both Cleveland and Atlanta looks pretty bad.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

If they play the way they did in the last 3 minutes they will win in 6.

Fixed

[Brian Swartz]

So Cleveland wins two games at home and everyone gives up on the Celtics, the best team in the league. The Cavs have to win one in Boston before I write the Celtics off. In three of the series, the team with home court advantage has lost 2 straight but they're all still in control until they lose a game at home. I hope all 3 series go the full 7 games.

Writing them off is not the same as saying they are in trouble. All three of the teams that have lost two straight are in trouble to some degree or another, and not just because they lost two straight on the road. Boston's shown that they still don't have much of an offensive identity and Doc Rivers can't stop tinkering with the rotation patterns for no apparent reason. That plus not having won a game on the road yet makes you wonder if they can beat Cleveland, because if they keep playing this way all it takes is LeBron shooting well either Game 5 or Game 7 in Boston.

The Lakers are probably fine IF Kobe's back is fine, but there's a lot of doubt about that and they are struggling with the Jazz on the boards. Meanwhile New Orleans is probably in the most trouble, as they don't appear to have a good answer for the Spurs putting Bowen on Stojakovic, David West has shown some composure issues, and Duncan appears to be back to full health, none of which are good for them no matter how flat-out awesome Chris Paul plays.

Boils down to the fact that a team that wins the first two games of the series is generally able to steal one on the road and close it out relatively quickly. The fact that none of them have been able to do that(excluding Detroit) is a cause for concern in all three cases by itself.

Oh, and Boston having the best regular-season record absolutely does not mean they are the best team in the NBA. It's pretty hard to argue that they've looked like the best team, or even looked like a team ready to win a title, based on their playoff performance thus far.

Just to put my money where my mouth is, I see Cleveland and Detroit in the East, San Antonio and LA in the West. I think David Stern's worst nightmare is the most likely scenario: San Antonio and Detroit with possible depression counseling required for ABC programming executives.

[rkmsuf]

The C's should just drop out now. What a joke they are. And Doc Rivers has to be one of the worst coaches in the league. Find me someone with a lower basketball IQ. I don't think you can.

When the Cavs backups manhandle Garnett and he can't score one on one at all it's time to pack it in. And Paul Pierce should either be moved or retire after the season. His game is deteriorating faster than a speeding bullet.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

The C's should just drop out now. What a joke they are. And Doc Rivers has to be one of the worst coaches in the league. Find me someone with a lower basketball IQ. I don't think you can.

When the Cavs backups manhandle Garnett and he can't score one on one at all it's time to pack it in. And Paul Pierce should either be moved or retire after the season. His game is deteriorating faster than a speeding bullet.

[rkmsuf]

George IS getting upset.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by stevew

I've heard that Brown is finally starting to make some adjustments.

This is a massive condemnation of Doc Rivers - that he is getting outcoached by Brown. No, not Larry Brown. Mike Brown. Wow.

I think this is worse than anything that Simmons has said about Doc up to this point in time.