Beijing Olympics 2008

[DaddyTorgo]

halfway through the rotation the American men gymnasts are actually in gold-medal position by .825 points over China.

[Autumn]

I wonder if anyone knows the specifics about how available the different suits (and similar things in various sports, shoes for example) are to every team. I don't follow it enough to know, but an article I read in Wired on suits and shoes made it sound as though they were being designed for the American team. If so, it seems like there would be some big differences between what equipment was available to various countries.

[DaddyTorgo]

jonathan horton is gonna lead the US men to a medal - silver or gold. the kid is sticking EVERYTHING. It's ridiculous.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I wonder if anyone knows the specifics about how available the different suits (and similar things in various sports, shoes for example) are to every team. I don't follow it enough to know, but an article I read in Wired on suits and shoes made it sound as though they were being designed for the American team. If so, it seems like there would be some big differences between what equipment was available to various countries.

nah - watch the races - everyone's wearing them

[Jas_lov]

That kid was good. Triple back.

[SackAttack]

QS - how much does it matter to you that the world record that got "crushed" was, like, 24 hours old? I'd imagine that that record, too, was set with the newer technology, but five teams in the finals beat a record that was presumably set with the same technology, and the Americans and French did so by nearly four seconds.

I think in that context, it absolutely is momentous. The American "B" squad swam an incredible race, and still saw that record bested by five other teams just hours later.

[DaddyTorgo]

scoring in gymnastics pisses me off - those guys have routines that look pretty damn good and yet they end up with like 15.7's??

and yet the chinese guy on vault steps out of bounds and ends up with a 15.975?

[ISiddiqui]

WOW... that Chinese gymnast just did the sickest vault I've ever seen.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

scoring in gymnastics pisses me off - those guys have routines that look pretty damn good and yet they end up with like 15.7's??

and yet the chinese guy on vault steps out of bounds and ends up with a 15.975?

Yeah, the penalties for mistakes should be higher if the execution score just gets added to the degree score. In the women's competition the CHinese girl that fell on her head still got a good score.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Yeah, the penalties for mistakes should be higher if the execution score just gets added to the degree score. In the women's competition the CHinese girl that fell on her head still got a good score.

I agree. It's almost like they're afraid to give a score under say 15 to anyone, and it really shouldn't be that way. If you step out of bounds what is wrong with losing say a full point, instead of 0.3? Really is somebody going to fucking cry? Why not just make a new standard that makes some fucking sense.

[ISiddiqui]

Well if you are doing something that is insanely difficult (like say that last Chinese vault), messing up something small shouldn't penalize you that much.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I agree. It's almost like they're afraid to give a score under say 15 to anyone, and it really shouldn't be that way. If you step out of bounds what is wrong with losing say a full point, instead of 0.3? Really is somebody going to fucking cry? Why not just make a new standard that makes some fucking sense.

Because that prevents anyone from trying anything risky and makes things more boring.

[Big Fo]

Sports with subjective scoring are pretty lame.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because that prevents anyone from trying anything risky and makes things more boring.

I know balancing it is difficult, but I think nailing a less difficult routine should be worth as much or more than screwing up a more difficult event.

[Young Drachma]

Feels like in the old days, the Olympics were more...organized? Or maybe the coverage was just different.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I know balancing it is difficult, but I think nailing a less difficult routine should be worth as much or more than screwing up a more difficult event.

I'd rather the scoring promote attempting more difficult routines. It is more entertaining. That's why I'm rooting for the Chinese men here as well, I like teams that take risks.

[Jas_lov]

I agree, Isiddiqui. The Chinese team is just too good. They were favorites to win the gold and they're doing more difficult routines so their mistakes aren't as big when they're taking more risks. The U.S. team should be happy with bronze.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'd rather the scoring promote attempting more difficult routines. It is more entertaining. That's why I'm rooting for the Chinese men here as well, I like teams that take risks.

i'm going to call homeland security on your ass because of this post

[DaddyTorgo]

you unamerican rejects should be ashamed of yourselves

[ISiddiqui]

Blind patriotism is a scourge on the land.

I watch the Olympics for the best athletes and the super pro-rah-rah-USA coverage by NBC makes me sick.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'd rather the scoring promote attempting more difficult routines. It is more entertaining. That's why I'm rooting for the Chinese men here as well, I like teams that take risks.

The Chinese are clearly the best team. Homerism has nothing to do with it. For my taste the balance between execution and difficulty has swung too far to difficulty. I think a slighly less difficult routine done cleanly should be worth more than a slightly more difficult routine with mistakes.

[Young Drachma]

Viewers outraged as Channel Seven dumps Olympic coverage for AFL match | The Australian

I love it.

[Young Drachma]

I'm gonna look at the online coverage. Badminton ftw.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Blind patriotism is a scourge on the land.

I watch the Olympics for the best athletes and the super pro-rah-rah-USA coverage by NBC makes me sick.

oops - did I forget the smilies in my posts?? I totally wasn't being serious fyi. figured the idea of me calling homeland security would clue you in to the fact that I was kidding

[kcchief19]

My only two complaints with the NBC coverage so far has been (1) allowing Matt Lauer in the building for the opening ceremonies -- although at least Katie Curic is at CBS saving us from her blathering on and on; and (2) showing synchronized diving in prime time. Synchronized diving should be on tape delay on Oxygen at 2 in the morning. If there is anything less of a sport than an arbitrarily judged event, it's have two people doing the same arbitrary event at the same time.

Compounding the "synchro diving" issue was that someone apparently died and left Andrea Kramer to be god's gift to synchronized diving. Considering I'm fairly certain she didn't know synchronized diving exited until about half an hour before the telecast, she acted like to was the world's foremost authorities -- although I doubt the Russian time ever works in practice to make their performances more "pretty," the word Andrea kept using in measuring the performances.

The Olympics will be a success for me if I'm able to survive the remaining events without seeing anything else synchronized.

[DaddyTorgo]

I think the problem with gymnastics coverage is the "difficulty" rating. your average viewer doesn't have any idea of what makes a "difficult" routine -- maybe the networks need to do a better idea of saying "this is what makes a parallel bars routine difficult, these are where you will see deductions" and stuff like that?

because unless the difficulty difference is HUGE how should I as an average viewer be able to tell the difference between a 6.4 and 7 difficulty program?

[kcchief19]

What's wrong with a little blind patriotism? I'm not saying I can't appreciate another country's accomplishments -- like say appreciating Derek Jeter or A-Rod -- but if they are going up against my team I want them to go down and go down hard. Just like I wouldn't mind seeing every guy on the Yankees pull a hamstring, same thing with the Olympics. It's sports. If I'm watching Latvia versus Argentina in team handball I can enjoy the matchup, but I want the USA to win everything. They're my team.

[Young Drachma]

Pentathlon. Now there's a test.

1. Shooting: Air pistol (20 shots)
2. Fencing: Epee (35 bouts)
3. Swimming: 200m freestyle
4. Equestrian: Show jumping (15 jumps)
5. Running: 3000m (1.82 miles) cross-country

[DaddyTorgo]

disaster for the US men on the pommel horse (what a stupid event) and they may need a little help to hold onto the bronze

[Tasan]

Glad to see the guys go nuts for their bronze. They were a team that almost didn't have enough guys to do it, with 2 of their best sitting at home with injuries. Great job.

And yeah, I'm gonna root for USA vs anyone, but I still marvel at the skill of the other guys. Of course, I'm also saying as I watch the other team, "Fall off, don't hurt yourself but fall, we need to move up!" Just like rooting for my favorite football or baseball team. I can admire the competition, but I don't want them to win. If USA isn't in it, then I watch for the sport of it.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

scoring in gymnastics pisses me off - those guys have routines that look pretty damn good and yet they end up with like 15.7's??

and yet the chinese guy on vault steps out of bounds and ends up with a 15.975?

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because that prevents anyone from trying anything risky and makes things more boring.

The US on High Bar/China on Vault rotation where they passed us really stood out for me too because to my untrained eye we had 3 difficult routines and nailed 2.5 of them while the Chinese had 3 very difficult routines and made small mistakes on all of them yet somehow we lost multiple points and 1st place? Looking at the official scoring, I'm even more confused. Take a look at the high bar scores (Name/Difficulty/Avg. of 4 middle judges/Total)

US
Hagerty 6.6-8.95-15.55
Horton 6.4-9.3-15.7
Spring 6.3-9.375-15.675

China
Xiaoping 6.7-8.925-15.725
Qin 6.2-9.05-15.25
Kai 7.0-8.975-15.975

Huh? I watched all 3 of the US ones and NBC showed at least 2 of the 3 China ones. The US team was doing more release moves, better release moves and bigger dismounts and sticking them yet 2 of the 3 Chinese guys get better scores than any of ours? Horton's routine for example he had 2 crazy mid-routine releases and finished it off absolutely nailing a triple twisting backflip dismount, yet he only gets a 6.4 for difficulty and a 9.3 for execution? Where were the .7 in deductions?

Also, Artimov, the US guy that killed it on pommel horse was awarded a 6.1-9.25-15.35. Where were the deductions on that routine? It probably wasn't the best pommel horse routin ever, but it was the best I've seen and a 9.25 average score for execution? Meanwhile, on vault the 3 Chinese (I'll accept that the difficulty scores should be ridiculously high - those were some crazy stunts) got execution scores of 9.55/9.6/9.45 (automatic .1 deduction for the 3rd) despite all taking huge steps on the landings.

Certain events are clearly going to be scored higher - I guess it was vault here with most teams in the 16's (including the 3 highest US scores and the only 2 US 16's), with pommel horse consistently in the 14's/low 15's, (except for one Chinese guy throwing out a 6.4/9.7/16.1 which I would have loved to see if it was that much better than Artimov's) and I understand the desire to have certain routines start out worth more than others, but all I'm asking for is the execution score to A) be possible to get a 10 and B) make sense when comparing two routines. Hypothetically, if someone went out there and did the perfect front handspring off the vault, they'd probably get a 2 for difficulty and rightfully so, but they'd still probably get 9.2's-9.4's for execution.

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Pentathlon. Now there's a test.

Why not just go all out with decathlon?

Originally Posted by decathlon events

100m
400m
1500m
110m Hurdles
Long Jump
High Jump
Discus
Javelin
Pole Vault

One other random thing I noticed while looking for that - the US has more gold medals (307) and Silver Medals (225) in Track & Field than any country has medals total - next is some combination of USSR/Russia with 214/GBR with 185/GER with 116. Nearly so in Swimming too - 202g 146s for the US while combined Germany hits 184 thanks to the E.German women and Australia has 157. USA! USA! USA!

[larrymcg421]

In Athens, Phelps won 6 Golds and 2 Bronze. He has already won the two events where he got the Bronze last time. Now he needs to repeat in everything else.

[Icy]

I HIGHLY recommend watching the China-Spain men basketball game from the last Q. You will enjoy a great end and also will be able to watch the next NBA draft Spanish 19yo wonderkid PG Ricky Rubio showing what he can do, specially on defense and stealing.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Icy

I HIGHLY recommend watching the China-Spain men basketball game from the last Q. You will enjoy a great end and also will be able to watch the next NBA draft Spanish 19yo wonderkid PG Ricky Rubio showing what he can do, specially on defense and stealing.

It was a horrible collapse by China.

I was actually more impressed by Rudy Fernandex than Rubio.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Icy

. You will enjoy a great end and also will be able to watch the next NBA draft Spanish 19yo wonderkid PG Ricky Rubio showing what he can do, specially on defense and stealing.

Yeah, I think he's got the name to be a star, just as a crossover. He's got a really good ability -- I watched his videos on youtube -- to find the open player and his court vision reminds me of Jason Kidd. I think he'll need to bulk up and get quicker for the NBA game. And unlike say, a Tony Parker, he doesn't seem able to create his own shot. Which I think is a weakness of a guy who wants to be a modern point guard.

But that said, I'm sure someone will take him Top 10 in the NBA draft when he's eligible, just on the marketing potential.

[sterlingice]

BishopMVP had a great post and after watching last night, I had very similar stuff in my head.

I'll say it again- gymnastics is maddening to watch because the scoring is so inconsistent and arbitrary. This goes beyond "Just stick the landing and that's all that matters" and isn't "Hulk no understand, Hulk smash!" I mean, we're all (mostly) pretty intelligent human beings and we get it explained to us over and over again during the night. I'm not going to be able to see every 0.1 deduction and pick out a 9.3 vs a 9.2 but I sure as hell can see what I think is a 9 vs a 9.5 in terms of form and style. Couple that with the fact that we get the difficulty score given to us and I think we can do a decent armchair job.

There was a lot of discussion last night again. It seems they were afraid to give any Chinese or Japanese gymnast anything under a 15, even tho they "were having an awful night" or had multiple falls. But the American has a rough pommel horse and gets a 12?!? I got the impression from watching the two sets of high bar routines that the Americans actually had better ones- we all had 3 significant releases, iirc, while some of the Chinese only had 2 but they got comparable or better scores.

It seems that the scoring favors certain countries- you have a good vault team, you do better than a team with an equally good floor team. There just aren't the points to be had on the floor in terms of difficulty.

Also, I would love to view this through non-US colored glasses as I'm not trying to say we should have done better or worse. Give us the Romanian team to compare with the Chinese or the Russians to compare to the Japanese and I would make the comparisons there. However, I can only compare what was covered last night and it was pretty much the Americans and the Chinese with about 5 minutes of the Japanese and Germans thrown in.

It's like I said the other night- the US girls were having major screw ups all over the place but we still ended up in 2nd. Were the other teams just kissing the floor on every other routine?

And then we're subjected to more of it tonight

SI

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Off-note, but it looks like Chicago made the final list (along with Tokyo, Madrid, and Rio de Janeiro) for the 2016 Olympics.

One step closer to being able to rent my house for a million bucks a day in 2016.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

It was a horrible collapse by China.

I was actually more impressed by Rudy Fernandex than Rubio.

I would say more that is was when Spain finally woke up. Spanish players were too relaxed and self confident and allowed a big lead too early. in the 4th Q they finally woke up, specially on defense, and shut down Chinese offense. Pau Gasol forced Ming's 5th personal and it was a key too.

Rudy is already a star in Spain and he should do well this year in Portland.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'd rather the scoring promote attempting more difficult routines. It is more entertaining. That's why I'm rooting for the Chinese men here as well, I like teams that take risks.

That's what this scoring DOES. You have an execution and a difficulty score. The execution starts at 10 and goes down for mandatory deductions for things you do poorly. The difficulty score rewards you for a difficult routine.

So if you do something difficult and miss part of it, the difficulty score should make up for a lower execution score. However, if you try something difficult and whiff it, too bad.

Watching the bits and pieces of gymnastics I have so far, I have no clue how they are arriving at their execution scores, because they do seem all over the place. I watch gymnastics hoping for another Kerry Strugg moment, not for who the judges decide is going to win.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

BishopMVP had a great post and after watching last night, I had very similar stuff in my head.

Should have read ahead before making the prior post. I'm with these two on my feelings about gymnastics.

[stevew]

Synchronized Diving. I turned this bullshit on the other day and was appalled. I can't believe they wasted the gas to fly competitors over there for the event. May as well have a Streetfighter Turbo tourney for a gold medal.

[Icy]

[quote=Dark Cloud;1807264].... And unlike say, a Tony Parker, he doesn't seem able to create his own shot. Which I think is a weakness of a guy who wants to be a modern point guard. But that said, I'm sure someone will take him Top 10 in the NBA draft when he's eligible, just on the marketing potential.

Have you watched the youtube video in the game vs Russia 2 years ago (under 16yo Euro cup)? He scored 55 points, grabbed 24 rebounds, made 12 assists, and stole the ball 7 times.

Besides that high scoring performance, i must agree with you that he is not the typical NBA scoring PG, but more of an Euro PG, with incredible vision/IQ and who passes first, but Calderon is also the same style of euro PG and he is doing well in Toronto. He can become a top player in assist and steals, as unlike Calderon, Rubio is a top defender. He will need good scorers aronud to receive his passes. His best shooting is at the PT, with 80%. He debuted at 14 years old in the Spanish pro league and was elected 2008 best PG in Spanish pro league being only 18 years old, that set a new record.

He is eligible in the next draft, and already considered a top prospect by some websites (even top 3 pick, but i doubt it).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Should have read ahead before making the prior post. I'm with these two on my feelings about gymnastics.

*cough* these three. Bishop and sterling basically put into more eloquent words what I had been trying to say earlier about how it frustrated me.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Icy

He debuted at 14 years old in the Spanish pro league and was elected 2008 best PG in Spanish pro league being only 18 years old, that set a new record.

After all the years, the fact that he was playing in the pros at 14 is still a shock to my American sensibilities.

[JPhillips]

I watch gymnastics hoping for another Kerry Strugg moment, not for who the judges decide is going to win.

With the current scoring there wouldn't be a Strug moment or Mary Lou Retton moment for that matter. Neither would need to stick the landing if the difficulty was high enough and neither would be able to score enough regardless of how well executed if the difficulty wasn't high enough.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I know balancing it is difficult, but I think nailing a less difficult routine should be worth as much or more than screwing up a more difficult event.

"let's award this Chinese Gymnast for her valiant attempt to levitate and do somersaults in thin air, nevermind that she's fallen on her face numerous times trying to pull off this stunt".

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The US on High Bar/China on Vault rotation where they passed us really stood out for me too because to my untrained eye we had 3 difficult routines and nailed 2.5 of them while the Chinese had 3 very difficult routines and made small mistakes on all of them yet somehow we lost multiple points and 1st place? Looking at the official scoring, I'm even more confused. Take a look at the high bar scores (Name/Difficulty/Avg. of 4 middle judges/Total)

US
Hagerty 6.6-8.95-15.55
Horton 6.4-9.3-15.7
Spring 6.3-9.375-15.675

China
Xiaoping 6.7-8.925-15.725
Qin 6.2-9.05-15.25
Kai 7.0-8.975-15.975

Huh? I watched all 3 of the US ones and NBC showed at least 2 of the 3 China ones. The US team was doing more release moves, better release moves and bigger dismounts and sticking them yet 2 of the 3 Chinese guys get better scores than any of ours? Horton's routine for example he had 2 crazy mid-routine releases and finished it off absolutely nailing a triple twisting backflip dismount, yet he only gets a 6.4 for difficulty and a 9.3 for execution? Where were the .7 in deductions?

Well, the last Chinese man on the high bar did a bunch of releases (3, I believe) and some difficult stunts. I don't remember the first Chinese man on the high bar, but I think he may have done 2 releases. There are, of course, difficulty relating to the switches and legs through arms while swinging on the bar, but I don't think the announcers really went into that all too much. And, of course, there is a different group of judges that judges difficulty from the one that judges execution.

Btw, you realize that the 9.3 and 9.375 (of Spring) are the highest execution scores in that group up there.

Also, yes, different events are rated differently. As the announcers pointed out, the pommel horse is ALWAYS scored lower. Where a high 14 is a decent score.

[DaddyTorgo]

i think the point is just that the execution + difficulty being added straight together is what people feel is messed-up. Maybe if difficulty had a 0.8x multiplier attached to it or something - as it is it seems too easy to make up for decent execution by throwing in a higher difficulty.

I don't want to see difficulty not matter AT ALL so that we just have people walking down the balance beam and doing a handstand say, but I think that the way it is weighted now is just not right. It ought to be possible to do a non-insanely difficult routine and do it with a 9.3 execution and get into the 16's, as opposed to doing a more difficult routine, barely scraping a 9, and getting a 16.

i guess what i really want though is announcers to explain better where all the deductions are - if they would at least tell me why somebody got a lower execution score I could probably live with the difficulty-bs. but it all seems so clandestine right now.

[ISiddiqui]

What some people feel is messed up . I actually like making difficulty and execution added together. Difficulty will never meet execution (unless someone tries an OMG, WTF routine), but it encourages more risky attempts.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i think the point is just that the execution + difficulty being added straight together is what people feel is messed-up.

Nope, it's that people have no freakin' clue how one routine earns one execution score while another earns a higher execution score despite having more obvious errors. It may be little things (like the lower score constantly had bad form), but people never know, and that leads to confusion.