Lakers vs Magic and the 2008-2009 NBA Playoffs/Finals Thread

[SirFozzie]

if he has to come out of the game due to injury, the CELTICS decide who shoots the free throws.

[SirFozzie]

NBA.com - RULE NO. 9-FREE THROW

Section II-Shooting of Free Throw
a. The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) If the offended player is injured or is ejected from the game and cannot attempt the awarded free throw(s), the opposing coach shall select, from his opponent's bench, the player who will replace the injured player. That player will attempt the free throw(s) and the injured player will not be permitted to re-enter the game. The substitute must remain in the game until the next dead ball.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

NBA.com - RULE NO. 9-FREE THROW

Section II-Shooting of Free Throw
a. The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) If the offended player is injured or is ejected from the game and cannot attempt the awarded free throw(s), the opposing coach shall select, from his opponent's bench, the player who will replace the injured player. That player will attempt the free throw(s) and the injured player will not be permitted to re-enter the game. The substitute must remain in the game until the next dead ball.

Man, kindofa crummy rule. I understand that by placing it in the opposing coach's hands, you take away the possibility a coach will have his player fake an injury to get a better free throw shooter, but this way of doing it only seems to encourage the concept of going out and head hunting on the floor. So long as you're going for the ball (per say), why not just try to hurt the guy every time?

[SirFozzie]

(2) If the offended player is injured and unable to attempt the awarded free throw(s) due to any unsportsmanlike act, his coach may designate any eligible member of the squad to attempt the free throw(s). The injured player will be permitted to re-enter the game.

This is why

[RainMaker]

I don't have a problem with the no-call on the flagrant. I think if it was in Chicago or much earlier in the game it could have been a flagrant. There is no way they call one though at the end of the game.

One thing that I haven't seen on the networks is giving more credit to Rondo. Outside of Lebron, he's been the best player in the playoffs. He's played better than Paul and Williams in the playoffs. You could make the argument that he's the best PG in basketball right now. I haven't watched a lot of Boston's games this year, but as a Chicago fan, this guy blows me away.

[Lathum]

I think the more pressing issue is did Neuqua get a hand job?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think the more pressing issue is did Neuqua get a hand job?

x2

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think the more pressing issue is did Neuqua get a hand job?

x3

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

One thing that I haven't seen on the networks is giving more credit to Rondo. Outside of Lebron, he's been the best player in the playoffs. He's played better than Paul and Williams in the playoffs. You could make the argument that he's the best PG in basketball right now. I haven't watched a lot of Boston's games this year, but as a Chicago fan, this guy blows me away.

+1

He's been crazy. And he's playing hurt to the point where he's dunking both of his feet/ankles in ice baths after the game. If he keeps working on his midrange game it's all over.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

+1

He's been crazy. And he's playing hurt to the point where he's dunking both of his feet/ankles in ice baths after the game. If he keeps working on his midrange game it's all over.

If he can get to Tony Parker´s level that would be great allready. That´s also the best i can envision him becoming and he´d have to think about changing his form as well, just like Parker did.
Right now his shot is pretty much "broken". Not terrible form, but inconsistent because he has way too much movement in his shooting motion combined with his big hands. Parker basically "shortened" the way he shot with an earlier release point, thus less possibility of leaving course during the shooting motion.
A technique that won´t ever make him (Parker) a great shooter but which is more consistent and relieable.

But the way he´s playing is really impressive, no doubt about it. And Rose isn´t exactly a pushover either despite being a rookie, so that adds to his performance.

A skinny PG that isn´t even big for his position without a jump shot putting up that kind of numbers is just sick, he´s really incredibly good at finding holes in the defense (sth that translates to his rebounding, too.).

And he´s also a good passer technically that isn´t dependent on drawing the help to make a good play (unlike f.e. Brooks).

The Rockets just stunk it up yesterday in the 4th. Too many unnescessary fouls where the Blazers weren´t even in scoring position, shitty rotations in help situations and on broken plays. Plus Aldridge absolutely abused Scola/Landry/Hayes, inspired performance. And then on offense they went cold without Scola and with Yao being defended extremely well. Brooks was just terrible (and the same problems in terms of passing, again), Battier way too passive, Landry sleepwalked and Artest was Artest ...

For Portland Blake was the X-Factor + MacMillan finally went completely without Batum in the 2nd half who just has no place this series on either end of the floor (no need for a defensive "stopper", he doesn´t help well and on offense he does absolutely nothing since the Blazers can´t get anything in transition), can´t play someone like that especially with Przybilla being a non-factor on offense as well.

I´m still confident the Rockets will pull it out tomorrow, but it´s far from over ...

[Neuqua]

First off, I am obviously biased in thinking it was a flagarant, getting that out of the way...

FOFC is just about the only place I have found where people don't think that was a flagarant foul on Rondo. ESPN's been talking about it all morning and I have not found one sports website who also is not calling that flagarant.

If that play were in Chicago or even earlier in the game, there is no doubt a flagarant would have been called so why do the circumstances change? If the roles were reversed and it was Brad Miller who swatted Rondo's head, is there any doubt what the outcome would have been?

Its arguable that he was going for the ball but when you hit a guy across the face like that, hard enough for his tooth to literally come out, that is more than a personal foul.

PS - And no I didn't get a handjob either, which may add to my grumpiness, but regardless I'm giving her a chance to redeem herself tomorrow at the United Center. Go Bulls.

[Neuqua]

dola -

Since when did the Celtics become so obnoxious? They've been acting like complete punks the entire series, I think they forget that its them that are the #2 seed that are being pushed to their limits by this up and coming #7 seed.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/sports/bas...n-Garnett.html

[Dr. Sak]

Did she at least let you feel her up?

[Neon_Chaos]

That was clearly a flagrant.

You shouldn't be able to slap someone in the side of the head and consider it to be called a "hard foul".

[Neon_Chaos]

[rjolley]

Yeah, I've seen lighter hits be called flagrant. That was a bit excessive. The fact that it was in the last minute of the game in the playoffs shouldn't matter.

[gstelmack]

Awww, did de poor widdle big dude get beat up by de skinny point guard? Awww....

(but yeah, he's nowhere near the ball, that's pretty bad. But since I gave up long ago trying to figure out what's a foul in the NBA, let alone the different types of fouls, I have no comment on whether it's flagrant or not).

[gstelmack]

Did he catch Pierce's elbow on the way down? That looks more likely to put out a tooth than Rondo's slap on the head.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

(But since I gave up long ago trying to figure out what's a foul in the NBA, let alone the different types of fouls, I have no comment on whether it's flagrant or not).

QFT

SI

[SirFozzie]

Actually. look at the picture.. I thought hitting the net was goaltending.. or is it only when the ball's on the cylinder.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

First off, I am obviously biased in thinking it was a flagarant, getting that out of the way...

FOFC is just about the only place I have found where people don't think that was a flagarant foul on Rondo. ESPN's been talking about it all morning and I have not found one sports website who also is not calling that flagarant.

If that play were in Chicago or even earlier in the game, there is no doubt a flagarant would have been called so why do the circumstances change? If the roles were reversed and it was Brad Miller who swatted Rondo's head, is there any doubt what the outcome would have been?

A) He didn't lose a tooth

B) You must not have looked very hard. Front page of espn.com

Legler on Rajon Rondo Foul - ESPN Video - ESPN

[Radii]

I don't watch a lot of NBA basketball, but I'm still amazed that we're talking about this foul instead of how a team as terribly coached as Chicago is a playoff team. Seriously, my impressions from the game yesterday:

1. Rose is far and away the best player Chicago has.

2. In every clutch situation, giving the ball to a guy who is 5-18, who is going to shoot no matter how bad the shot he has available to him, is lunacy. Seriously, that bailout foul on the 3 pointer by Gordon late in the game... he should be pulled from the game for being moronic enough to even consider putting up that shot. The final play before OT... they clearout for Gordon, he waits until there's 5 seconds on the clock to even get within 30 feet of the basket, and takes a ridiculous fadeaway over a defender from 22 feet out. There's no thought of going 2 seconds earlier for the chance at a tipin? No consideration to passing the ball to an open man?

3. Taking 1 and 2 into consideration, why the hell are you going to your ice cold terrible decision maker of a SG. Give the ball to Rose. He drives, dishes if his drive causes enough chaos that someone gets open, takes a shot if its there, draws contact if he can. You crowd the middle allowing the chance for a tip-in off a miss.

4. When Paul Pierce hits open 15-18 footers every single trip down the court without breaking a sweat, with no effort or intent of doing anything different until stopped, how many times does Chicago allow this to happen before putting someone else in the game? Or putting a different defender on Pierce? Or making any kind of move *at all* to prevent this from happening?


Admittedly I don't watch enough of the NBA to know all the players anymore, but Rose/Rondo and the closeness of this series got me interested in watching a bit, and Chicago was just a complete embarrassment down the stretch and in the entirety of overtime.

am I missing something?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

dola -

Since when did the Celtics become so obnoxious? They've been acting like complete punks the entire series, I think they forget that its them that are the #2 seed that are being pushed to their limits by this up and coming #7 seed.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/sports/bas...n-Garnett.html

i didn't read your link, but if it's talking about Garnett - hasn't the knock on him always been that he's super-intense and he comes off as sort of a bully/psycho because of his intensity?

[larrymcg421]

It probably should've been a flagrant, and I agree that the time of the game shouldn't matter one bit. If that was the case, then why wouldn't the team ahead just be utterly brutal in the closing seconds? If someone commits a technical with 0.1 left in a 3OT game that is the 7th game of the NBA finals, then it should still be called.

However, why is this getting so much play? It was a bad call, but they happen. Just like Gordon being out of bounds before he was fouled on the 3 pt attempt.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I just have a feeling that Gordon has an 8 for 25 night coming up.

So it was 6 for 21. But there's no doubt he cost them that game.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

However, why is this getting so much play? It was a bad call, but they happen. Just like Gordon being out of bounds before he was fouled on the 3 pt attempt.

Also see Ray Allen in the second half.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Radii

Admittedly I don't watch enough of the NBA to know all the players anymore, but Rose/Rondo and the closeness of this series got me interested in watching a bit, and Chicago was just a complete embarrassment down the stretch and in the entirety of overtime.

am I missing something?

No, and I put this heavily on the fact that Del Negro has no business being a head coach in the NBA. He hasn't shown he can make adjustments and adapt to how games are shaping up. I've watched a pretty fair amount of Bulls games this season, and the VAST majority of the time, anything he draws up out of a timeout turns into a disaster.

The talent of the team has made the Bulls interesting to watch. The tactics/team discipline has been abysmal all season, and that's heavily on the coach.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Radii

4. When Paul Pierce hits open 15-18 footers every single trip down the court without breaking a sweat, with no effort or intent of doing anything different until stopped, how many times does Chicago allow this to happen before putting someone else in the game? Or putting a different defender on Pierce? Or making any kind of move *at all* to prevent this from happening?

Easier said than done. Pierce is a complete player that can hit from anywhere on the court. If you challenge his outside shots, he'll get by you and to the line. If you sit back, he'll pull up and hit a jumper. The defense wasn't so bad on those shots down the stretch. A couple of them were somewhat off balance.

Plus the problem is that the Bulls are a .500 team, and there's probably a reason for it. Think about it in text sim terms. You've got a guy with a 5 rating in defense and put him on their star who has 10's across the board. He might get burned, but you don't take him out and put your guy with a rating of 3 on him.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Also see Ray Allen in the second half.

Not having watched the game, I didn't know what else had gone on until I read Simmons today:

Originally Posted by Bill Simmons

If the Bulls fans want to whine about it, fine, just remember that (A.) Boston's best clutch guy (Ray Allen) fouled out on two of the worst calls of the playoffs, and (B.) Ben Gordon stepped out of bounds right as he got fouled by Tony "Why Am I In The Game Again?" Allen for three game-tying free throws in the final 30 seconds. Sweeping incompetence will eventually even out over time.

Sounds like from you guys these are valid questions.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Meh Allen kept getting called for ticky tacky fouls over and over again until they'd run him from the game. On one hand it's his own fault, but on the other it seemed ridiculous to me.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Easier said than done. Pierce is a complete player that can hit from anywhere on the court. If you challenge his outside shots, he'll get by you and to the line. If you sit back, he'll pull up and hit a jumper. The defense wasn't so bad on those shots down the stretch. A couple of them were somewhat off balance.

Plus the problem is that the Bulls are a .500 team, and there's probably a reason for it. Think about it in text sim terms. You've got a guy with a 5 rating in defense and put him on their star who has 10's across the board. He might get burned, but you don't take him out and put your guy with a rating of 3 on him.

Yeah I can understand that for sure. But Salmons is an inch shorter than Pierce and seemed a foot shorter by the time Pierce makes a jab step and Salmons falls over himself to jump back and protect against the drive. I know I'm exaggerating a bit but Garnett is hurt, Allen has fouled out... Pierce is the only one of the big 3 left in the game. Don't you at least try something different after he hits 2 or 3 of those jump shots in a row? Tell Salmons to play tight and set up a switch/rotation behind him if he gets by. Double team him at the top of the key... sure you may still lose anyway, but make him give up the ball to someone else, or work a good bit harder for his shot if he's going to take it.

The Bulls offensive tactics were a much bigger problem to me than the defense, but that still bugged the heck out of me watching it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by whomario

If he can get to Tony Parker´s level that would be great allready. That´s also the best i can envision him becoming and he´d have to think about changing his form as well, just like Parker did.
Right now his shot is pretty much "broken". Not terrible form, but inconsistent because he has way too much movement in his shooting motion combined with his big hands. Parker basically "shortened" the way he shot with an earlier release point, thus less possibility of leaving course during the shooting motion.
A technique that won´t ever make him (Parker) a great shooter but which is more consistent and relieable.

But the way he´s playing is really impressive, no doubt about it. And Rose isn´t exactly a pushover either despite being a rookie, so that adds to his performance.

A skinny PG that isn´t even big for his position without a jump shot putting up that kind of numbers is just sick, he´s really incredibly good at finding holes in the defense (sth that translates to his rebounding, too.).

And he´s also a good passer technically that isn´t dependent on drawing the help to make a good play (unlike f.e. Brooks).

The Rockets just stunk it up yesterday in the 4th. Too many unnescessary fouls where the Blazers weren´t even in scoring position, shitty rotations in help situations and on broken plays. Plus Aldridge absolutely abused Scola/Landry/Hayes, inspired performance. And then on offense they went cold without Scola and with Yao being defended extremely well. Brooks was just terrible (and the same problems in terms of passing, again), Battier way too passive, Landry sleepwalked and Artest was Artest ...

For Portland Blake was the X-Factor + MacMillan finally went completely without Batum in the 2nd half who just has no place this series on either end of the floor (no need for a defensive "stopper", he doesn´t help well and on offense he does absolutely nothing since the Blazers can´t get anything in transition), can´t play someone like that especially with Przybilla being a non-factor on offense as well.

I´m still confident the Rockets will pull it out tomorrow, but it´s far from over ...

I think he's a much different player than Parker. First, Rondo is a great rebounder, probably the best rebounding PG in the NBA right now. He's also a better defender. Parker is a better passer which may be the most important quality.

Rondo needs to become a better mid-range shooter as well as hit his free throws. If he does that, he'll be the best PG in the NBA.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

Yeah I can understand that for sure. But Salmons is an inch shorter than Pierce and seemed a foot shorter by the time Pierce makes a jab step and Salmons falls over himself to jump back and protect against the drive. I know I'm exaggerating a bit but Garnett is hurt, Allen has fouled out... Pierce is the only one of the big 3 left in the game. Don't you at least try something different after he hits 2 or 3 of those jump shots in a row? Tell Salmons to play tight and set up a switch/rotation behind him if he gets by. Double team him at the top of the key... sure you may still lose anyway, but make him give up the ball to someone else, or work a good bit harder for his shot if he's going to take it.

The Bulls offensive tactics were a much bigger problem to me than the defense, but that still bugged the heck out of me watching it.

I was actually surprised that they didn't have Hinrich on him. He has much quicker hands and is real fiesty. He had been giving Pierce fits when guarding him throughout the series.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think he's a much different player than Parker. First, Rondo is a great rebounder, probably the best rebounding PG in the NBA right now. He's also a better defender. Parker is a better passer which may be the most important quality.

Rondo needs to become a better mid-range shooter as well as hit his free throws. If he does that, he'll be the best PG in the NBA.

fully agree, i merely brought Parker up as a recent example of a good PG that lacked a jump shot and changed his shooting form to get to a respectable level (at times even better than respectabel, if he gets to his sweet spots).
Best PG in the NBA ? I don´t know about that one and that´s not a knock on him with guys like Paul and Williams who are really, really good. Just that they lost in the first round doesn´t change how good they are.

@ Radii : The thing is that it worked pretty good so far, Salmons did a great job on defense. But i agree that they should have come up with some defensive scheme, some 1-3-1 traping zone or pick another poison and double agressively.

The Celtics made that sort of adjustment with Rose late in Game 1 and have forced him out of his comfort zone the next games.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

dola -

Since when did the Celtics become so obnoxious? They've been acting like complete punks the entire series, I think they forget that its them that are the #2 seed that are being pushed to their limits by this up and coming #7 seed.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/sports/bas...n-Garnett.html

They could learn from the classy Ben Gordon and his crotch grabbing after big shots.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

They could learn from the classy Ben Gordon and his crotch grabbing after big shots.

I noticed that last night - wtf is up with that?

[Big Fo]

Dwight Howard has been suspended for game six. Without him and Lee this is probably going to seven games.

[MikeVic]

What did Howard do?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

I don't watch a lot of NBA basketball, but I'm still amazed that we're talking about this foul instead of how a team as terribly coached as Chicago is a playoff team. Seriously, my impressions from the game yesterday:

That's the saddest part of it as a Bulls fan. The team should be a lot better. They were well under .500 to start the year until Vinny learned that playing a half court style with quick guys who can run doesn't work.

He is by far the worst coach in the league and really doesn't know what he's doing. He ran out of timeouts in the first two games in the series when the team could have used them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by whomario

fully agree, i merely brought Parker up as a recent example of a good PG that lacked a jump shot and changed his shooting form to get to a respectable level (at times even better than respectabel, if he gets to his sweet spots).
Best PG in the NBA ? I don´t know about that one and that´s not a knock on him with guys like Paul and Williams who are really, really good. Just that they lost in the first round doesn´t change how good they are.

@ Radii : The thing is that it worked pretty good so far, Salmons did a great job on defense. But i agree that they should have come up with some defensive scheme, some 1-3-1 traping zone or pick another poison and double agressively.

The Celtics made that sort of adjustment with Rose late in Game 1 and have forced him out of his comfort zone the next games.

I'm a big Paul fan but not as much on Williams. I think he disappears from games too much.

I know it's probably bias, but I think Rose will be better than all of them. He's 20 years old and playing on a team that has two guys who just don't pass (Salmons and Gordon).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

dola -

Since when did the Celtics become so obnoxious? They've been acting like complete punks the entire series, I think they forget that its them that are the #2 seed that are being pushed to their limits by this up and coming #7 seed.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/sports/bas...n-Garnett.html

It is funny seeing Garnett calling someone a choker when most of his career has been spent choking in the first round of the playoffs.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

What did Howard do?

blatant elbow to the head

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Dwight Howard has been suspended for game six. Without him and Lee this is probably going to seven games.

I'm a bit surprised he was suspended. He did throw an elbow but you'll probably see it a dozen or so times in the playoffs. But I know the league wants a Game 7 bad.

[SirFozzie]

NBA OK with Rondo foul - Celtics Blog - Boston.com

NBA has agreed that Rondo's foul was not a flagrant

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm a bit surprised he was suspended. He did throw an elbow but you'll probably see it a dozen or so times in the playoffs. But I know the league wants a Game 7 bad.

I thought it was harsh as well and was hoping the league would give Howard the benefit of the doubt.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I thought it was harsh as well and was hoping the league would give Howard the benefit of the doubt.

Not when there is big money to be made in a 7 game series.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

It's a conspiracy!

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not when there is big money to be made in a 7 game series.

This again? As long as you're not whining when people say the refs "handed game 6" to the Bulls. Because you know it's coming.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

This again? As long as you're not whining when people say the refs "handed game 6" to the Bulls. Because you know it's coming.

I know the Bulls will get the benefit of the doubt in Game 6.

[Karlifornia]

I just don't think it's fair that the higher seeds get a home court advantage.