OT: The apostrophe (elitist grammar rant)

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 05:06 PM

The misunderstood, much-maligned apostrophe.

What is it about the apostrophe that is so baffling? Why do so many among us want to use an apostrophe when we make a somewhat complex word into a plural? Does that make any sense? Why would we write the word (for example) as dynasty's? Why would that even seem like an option? It's not like there are lots and lots of cases where we use the apostrophe to pluralize... and this word is some kind of irregular exception. The apostrophe really has nothing to do with pluralizing, it shouldn't even come to mind.

Okay... we've been through its and it's already. The fact that some possessive words like Jim's include the apostrophe makes this one somewhat understandable, at least -- I can at least see why someone might equate "belonging to Jim = Jim's" and "belonging to it = it's" even though this parallel is false. This one is unfortunate (and grievously widespread), but at least you can see the thinking there, I guess.

But what is the deal with just dropping apostrophes into words that end with an s? Why would you even be tempted to spell that word apostrophe's?

NoMyths · 02-26-2004, 05:09 PM

Hear hear!*

*Master of Fine Arts (Creative Writing), Purdue, 2003

Passacaglia · 02-26-2004, 05:10 PM

Another story involving me on a bus....

I saw a bench that had an advertisement for the re-election of an Alderman, I think his name is Walter Tunney, Jr.? Anyway, it said something to the effect of "Walter Tunney, Jr. say's..."

I was appalled.

VPI97 · 02-26-2004, 05:14 PM

fucking elitist's

Dutch · 02-26-2004, 05:16 PM

I just put those little buggers everywhere so nobody thinks I'm afraid to use them.

Marmel · 02-26-2004, 05:16 PM

My crappy Word Processor will take a word like NCAAs and format to look like this:

Ncaas, when I want it to look like NCAAs

So I use the apostrophe incorrectly on purpose if that makes sense.

Example:

I cannot believe UTEP qualified for the NCAAs (NCAAs short for NCAA Tournament, pronounced N-C-Double-As)

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97

fucking elitist's

BRILLIANT!

(I was just going to post this exact thing... you beat me to the punch, I got sidetracked)

Marmel · 02-26-2004, 05:17 PM

Shouldn't you be tabulating the IWS result's instead of this crap anyway's?

SackAttack · 02-26-2004, 05:18 PM

Word'll do that, but if I'm not mistaken, if you hit the backspace key once after it auto-formats, it should restore the old formatting.

Maple Leafs · 02-26-2004, 05:18 PM

Reminds me of one day at college. I studied journalism, and one of the rules we all learned on day one was that we always had to get names right. Typos were bad, but in a name they were inexcusable. Spell a name wrong, automatic failure. It was that simple.

In a sportswriting class, the teacher called one of my friends up to the front of the room and asked if he understood the importance of getting names right. He said he did. She asked if he was sure his last assignment was free of errors. He said it was. She then put his article up on the big screen for all to see and pointed to the lead, and asked "So you're telling us that the Ottawa 67's (local junior-A hockey team) really spell their name with an unnecessary apostrophe before the s?"

Silence. Everyone squirms. Poor guy.

He looks her in the eye and says "Yes, actually, they do."

And it turns out it was true. That is their official name (proof). He had to go look it up for her before she believed him but he was right.

He's now a reporter for a national sports network.

hukarez · 02-26-2004, 05:20 PM

Say Quiksand, are you an English major by chance?

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 05:20 PM

The regrettable use of an apostrophe when pluarlizing numbers and even letters seems to be with us for good. I think that plays some minor role in fueling the aforementioned problem, but it can't be the whole explanation, can it?

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hukarez

Say Quiksand, are you an English major by chance?

No, I just get ticked off by this sort of things.

And I'll tell you another thing. It will be a cold day in hell when I hire someone who trips up on this kind of shit in, say, a cover letter for a job application. If you can't be trusted to handle details like "would have" instead of "would of" -- how can I possibly trust you to make decisions for my company?

This is not a purely academic/trivial issue.

NoMyths · 02-26-2004, 05:26 PM

The worst part is that the apostrophe for names (e.g. Jim's) is really just a holdover from old structures that no longer really apply...so the fact that folks screw it up is kind of understandable. On names. Less so for the other screwups (e.g. dynasty's).

hukarez · 02-26-2004, 05:26 PM

Your stance on the nuances of the English language are commendable.

It's time for me to throw out the m-w.com bookmark in my favorites list!

WussGawd · 02-26-2004, 05:30 PM

Quiksan'd I' agre'e wit'h yo'u. Peopl'e jus't dont us'e apostrophe's righ't. O'f cours'e th'e thin'g tha't bothers' m'e i's folk's wh'o ar'e no't toleran't o'f othe'r people's gramma'r.

Thos'e peopl'e driv'e m'e nut's.

digamma · 02-26-2004, 05:31 PM

If we can't even get the apostrophe straight on things like dynasty's, I'm guessing it is way too much trouble to ask people to learn the correct rule for showing the possessive of singular names or proper nouns that end in s (i.e., Jones). Or have we just accepted the incorrect use (Tom Jones' song) as a replacement for the correct one (Tom Jones's song)?

hukarez · 02-26-2004, 05:32 PM

I was never much of an expert when it came to grammar.

One thing is for certain, though. TyPiNg LiKe ThIs HuRtz mY EyEz.

NoMyths · 02-26-2004, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma

If we can't even get the apostrophe straight on things like dynasty's, I'm guessing it is way too much trouble to ask people to learn the correct rule for showing the possessive of singular names or proper nouns that end in s (i.e., Jones). Or have we just accepted the incorrect use (Tom Jones' song) as a replacement for the correct one (Tom Jones's song)?

Actually, Jones' IS the correct usage. As is Jones's. Evidently both are correct.

NoMyths · 02-26-2004, 05:39 PM

dola...
Here is a good link for more info: Apostrophes!

Buzzbee · 02-26-2004, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

No, I just get ticked off by this sort of things.

And I'll tell you another thing. It will be a cold day in hell when I hire someone who trips up on this kind of shit in, say, a cover letter for a job application. If you can't be trusted to handle details like "would have" instead of "would of" -- how can I possibly trust you to make decisions for my company?

This is not a purely academic/trivial issue.

Could of, would of, should of. Quiksand would of hired me if Id of only used the apostrophe's in the right place.

yabanci · 02-26-2004, 05:43 PM

cudda, wudda, shudda

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 05:44 PM

I hadn't seen the deliniation that the Purdue site uses for saying that it's appropriate to use an apostrophe for pluralizing lower case letters... but I like that rule. It's still difficult to sugest that they ought to be caled the Oakland As, but we can marshal through this one.

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

Could of, would of, should of. Quiksand would of hired me if Id of only used the apostrophe's in the right place.

And capitalized the S, dummy.

Buzzbee · 02-26-2004, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

And capitalized the S, dummy.

Doh!

Fucking elitist!

Young Drachma · 02-26-2004, 05:54 PM

hehe..the variety of threads on this board never ceases to amaze me. I mean that in a good way..

NoMyths · 02-26-2004, 05:55 PM

Quik: Fwiw, the Purdue Site (Online Writing Lab, or OWL) is considered one of the premier online sites in the world for grammar stuff--I give out the address to students all the time, and know of several international writing labs that have established themselves in the model of the site. Whenever I've got a grammar question, it's where I turn.

digamma · 02-26-2004, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Actually, Jones' IS the correct usage. As is Jones's. Evidently both are correct.

From the Purdue site:

• add 's to the singular form of the word (even if it ends in -s):

the owner's car James's hat

Am I missing the alternative rule? (I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse, here.)

Easy Mac · 02-26-2004, 06:07 PM

Why is there no apostrophe in "twas?" Is it not a combination of "it was?" I say revolution.

Noop · 02-26-2004, 06:08 PM

I don't have the best grammar so I suggest you sue for more funding in America's public school systems.

k0ruptr · 02-26-2004, 06:18 PM

this thread suck's

QuikSand · 02-26-2004, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Why is there no apostrophe in "twas?"

To the extent anyone (outside of December 24) actually uses this word any longer, it is indeed properly spelled with a leading apostrophe: 'twas. Just like any other contraction, the apostrophe is an indicator of the letter or letters that have been eliminated.

Fritz · 02-26-2004, 06:27 PM

Am I the the only one here over the years who has been shamed into thinking more about grammar (not that I let them interfere with my preferred - incorrect - style) by Quiks occasional posts?

Easy Mac · 02-26-2004, 06:29 PM

NoMyths · 02-26-2004, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digamma

From the Purdue site:

• add 's to the singular form of the word (even if it ends in -s):

the owner's car James's hat

Am I missing the alternative rule? (I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse, here.)

Doh! Nah, just got confused on the singular vs. plural...Keeping up with the Jones' is correct, and Tom Jones's song is correct, but keeping up with the Jones's is incorrect, as is Tom Jones' song.

corbes · 02-26-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Quik: Fwiw, the Purdue Site (Online Writing Lab, or OWL) is considered one of the premier online sites in the world for grammar stuff--I give out the address to students all the time, and know of several international writing labs that have established themselves in the model of the site. Whenever I've got a grammar question, it's where I turn.

NoMyths, I teach writing to high school students. I found OWL a couple years ago -- and point my students there now and then! It's a nice resource.

ice4277 · 02-26-2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

To the extent anyone (outside of December 24) actually uses this word any longer, it is indeed properly spelled with a leading apostrophe: 'twas. Just like any other contraction, the apostrophe is an indicator of the letter or letters that have been eliminated.

I try to use 'twas and verily at least 15 times a day. Just to change thing's up a little.

SnowMan · 02-26-2004, 07:54 PM

Apostrophes? Hell, I'm still trying to teach people about they're/there/their and to/too/two. Not to mention you're/your. Not enough hours in the day, sometimes.

Celeval · 02-26-2004, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

And I'll tell you another thing. It will be a cold day in hell when I hire someone who trips up on this kind of shit in, say, a cover letter for a job application. If you can't be trusted to handle details like "would have" instead of "would of" -- how can I possibly trust you to make decisions for my company?

I completely agree, and have flunked people in interviews because their resume showed a complete lack of understanding of the English language.

Not that I'm the greatest writer in the world, but obvious problems..

Kevin

VPI97 · 02-26-2004, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

I don't have the best grammar so I suggest you sue for more funding in America's public school systems.

LOL...This needs more love.

Craptacular · 02-26-2004, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It's still difficult to sugest that they ought to be caled the Oakland As, but we can marshal through this one.

He's so mad, he forgot how to spell.

dawgfan · 02-26-2004, 10:08 PM

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

Scholes · 02-26-2004, 11:28 PM

I was once in a pick-the-winner NFL league where the guy who ran it and posted the matchups put apostrophes in every team's nickname.

Example: Viking's at Dolphin's

I quit the league after two weeks.

cthomer5000 · 02-27-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz

Am I the the only one here over the years who has been shamed into thinking more about grammar (not that I let them interfere with my preferred - incorrect - style) by Quiks occasional posts?

You apparently haven't taken this apostrophe lesson to heart yet.

cthomer5000 · 02-27-2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgfan

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

This is becoming dangerously widespread.

Airhog · 02-27-2004, 10:22 AM

Grammar Nazi's suck...

cuervo72 · 02-27-2004, 10:28 AM

Don't show this thread to that Goneril...I mean Galaril fellow.

damnMikeBrown · 02-27-2004, 11:21 AM

Hell with this. Can't someone do it for me?

hukarez · 02-27-2004, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgfan

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

Let's not forget Wierd and Recieved!

cuervo72 · 02-27-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgfan

As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

Did you just say "redicurous"?

02-26-2004, 05:09 PM	#2
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	Hear hear!* Master of Fine Arts (Creative Writing), Purdue, 2003 Last edited by NoMyths : 02-26-2004 at 05:10 PM.*

02-26-2004, 05:14 PM	#4
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	fucking elitist's __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

02-26-2004, 05:16 PM	#6
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	My crappy Word Processor will take a word like NCAAs and format to look like this: Ncaas, when I want it to look like NCAAs So I use the apostrophe incorrectly on purpose if that makes sense. Example: I cannot believe UTEP qualified for the NCAAs (NCAAs short for NCAA Tournament, pronounced N-C-Double-As) __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

02-26-2004, 05:17 PM	#8
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Shouldn't you be tabulating the IWS result's instead of this crap anyway's? __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

02-26-2004, 05:18 PM	#10
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	Reminds me of one day at college. I studied journalism, and one of the rules we all learned on day one was that we always had to get names right. Typos were bad, but in a name they were inexcusable. Spell a name wrong, automatic failure. It was that simple. In a sportswriting class, the teacher called one of my friends up to the front of the room and asked if he understood the importance of getting names right. He said he did. She asked if he was sure his last assignment was free of errors. He said it was. She then put his article up on the big screen for all to see and pointed to the lead, and asked "So you're telling us that the Ottawa 67's (local junior-A hockey team) really spell their name with an unnecessary apostrophe before the s?" Silence. Everyone squirms. Poor guy. He looks her in the eye and says "Yes, actually, they do." And it turns out it was true. That is their official name (proof). He had to go look it up for her before she believed him but he was right. He's now a reporter for a national sports network. __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

02-26-2004, 05:10 PM	#3
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	Another story involving me on a bus.... I saw a bench that had an advertisement for the re-election of an Alderman, I think his name is Walter Tunney, Jr.? Anyway, it said something to the effect of "Walter Tunney, Jr. say's..." I was appalled.

02-26-2004, 05:16 PM	#5
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	I just put those little buggers everywhere so nobody thinks I'm afraid to use them.

02-26-2004, 05:18 PM	#9
SackAttack Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Green Bay, WI	Word'll do that, but if I'm not mistaken, if you hit the backspace key once after it auto-formats, it should restore the old formatting.

02-26-2004, 05:20 PM	#11
hukarez College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chula Vista, CA	Say Quiksand, are you an English major by chance? __________________ ...what we have here is a man who looks like Tarzan, but fights like Jane! My VG collection \| Xbox 360 Gamertag: ManThol \| PS3 Network ID: hukarez Doce Pares International - San Diego Council Filipino Martial Arts Digest tweet tweet twitter

02-26-2004, 05:20 PM	#12
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	The regrettable use of an apostrophe when pluarlizing numbers and even letters seems to be with us for good. I think that plays some minor role in fueling the aforementioned problem, but it can't be the whole explanation, can it?

02-26-2004, 05:26 PM	#14
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	The worst part is that the apostrophe for names (e.g. Jim's) is really just a holdover from old structures that no longer really apply...so the fact that folks screw it up is kind of understandable. On names. Less so for the other screwups (e.g. dynasty's).

02-26-2004, 05:30 PM	#16
WussGawd College Benchwarmer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Avondale, AZ, USA, Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy	Quiksan'd I' agre'e wit'h yo'u. Peopl'e jus't dont us'e apostrophe's righ't. O'f cours'e th'e thin'g tha't bothers' m'e i's folk's wh'o ar'e no't toleran't o'f othe'r people's gramma'r. Thos'e peopl'e driv'e m'e nut's. __________________ "I guess I'll fade into Bolivian." -Mike Tyson, after being knocked out by Lennox Lewis. Proud Dumba Elect of the "Biggest Dumba of FOFC Award" Author of the 2004 Golden Scribe Gold Trophy for Best Basketball Dynasty, It Rhymes With Puke.

02-26-2004, 05:31 PM	#17
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	If we can't even get the apostrophe straight on things like dynasty's, I'm guessing it is way too much trouble to ask people to learn the correct rule for showing the possessive of singular names or proper nouns that end in s (i.e., Jones). Or have we just accepted the incorrect use (Tom Jones' song) as a replacement for the correct one (Tom Jones's song)?

02-26-2004, 05:32 PM	#18
hukarez College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Chula Vista, CA	I was never much of an expert when it came to grammar. One thing is for certain, though. TyPiNg LiKe ThIs HuRtz mY EyEz. __________________ ...what we have here is a man who looks like Tarzan, but fights like Jane! My VG collection \| Xbox 360 Gamertag: ManThol \| PS3 Network ID: hukarez Doce Pares International - San Diego Council Filipino Martial Arts Digest tweet tweet twitter

02-26-2004, 05:39 PM	#20
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	dola... Here is a good link for more info: Apostrophes!

02-26-2004, 05:43 PM	#22
yabanci College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jun 2003	cudda, wudda, shudda

02-26-2004, 05:44 PM	#23
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	I hadn't seen the deliniation that the Purdue site uses for saying that it's appropriate to use an apostrophe for pluralizing lower case letters... but I like that rule. It's still difficult to sugest that they ought to be caled the Oakland As, but we can marshal through this one.

02-26-2004, 05:54 PM	#26
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	hehe..the variety of threads on this board never ceases to amaze me. I mean that in a good way..

02-26-2004, 05:55 PM	#27
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	Quik: Fwiw, the Purdue Site (Online Writing Lab, or OWL) is considered one of the premier online sites in the world for grammar stuff--I give out the address to students all the time, and know of several international writing labs that have established themselves in the model of the site. Whenever I've got a grammar question, it's where I turn.

02-26-2004, 06:07 PM	#29
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Why is there no apostrophe in "twas?" Is it not a combination of "it was?" I say revolution.

02-26-2004, 06:08 PM	#30
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	I don't have the best grammar so I suggest you sue for more funding in America's public school systems. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

02-26-2004, 06:18 PM	#31
k0ruptr Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Las Vegas	this thread suck's __________________ Xbox Live Gamertag: k0ruptr My Favorite Teams : Chicago White Sox - Carolina Panthers - Orlando Magic - Phoenix Suns - Anaheim Ducks - Hawaii Warriors - Oregon Ducks

02-26-2004, 06:27 PM	#33
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	Am I the the only one here over the years who has been shamed into thinking more about grammar (not that I let them interfere with my preferred - incorrect - style) by Quiks occasional posts? __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

02-26-2004, 06:29 PM	#34
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	yes

02-26-2004, 07:54 PM	#38
SnowMan High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Georgia via Alaska via Washington	Apostrophes? Hell, I'm still trying to teach people about they're/there/their and to/too/two. Not to mention you're/your. Not enough hours in the day, sometimes.

02-26-2004, 10:08 PM	#42
dawgfan Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle	As long as we're in grammar venting mode, I've been seeing a lot of this one lately: "rediculous"

02-26-2004, 11:28 PM	#43
Scholes High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St. Paul, MN	I was once in a pick-the-winner NFL league where the guy who ran it and posted the matchups put apostrophes in every team's nickname. Example: Viking's at Dolphin's I quit the league after two weeks. Last edited by Scholes : 02-26-2004 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Missing examples

02-27-2004, 10:22 AM	#46
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	Grammar Nazi's suck... __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

02-27-2004, 10:28 AM	#47
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	Don't show this thread to that Goneril...I mean Galaril fellow. __________________ null

02-27-2004, 11:21 AM	#48
damnMikeBrown College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cincinnati, OH	Hell with this. Can't someone do it for me?

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