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Old 06-04-2020, 05:06 PM   #1
Squirrel
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Video: Talking about chemistry and FOF strategy with QuikSand

So QuikSand and I just spoke for an hour or so about chemistry and FOF strategy, and we recorded it in case others in the FOF community might find it interesting.

Our first focus was chemistry given that he is the master of that...but we ended up ranging more widely into FOF strategy and how he thinks about the game. Really interesting stuff.

Doing this was a real treat for me and big thanks to Quik for doing it. Just love listening to him talk about playing the game. Hope others do too.

Youtube link here:

QuikSand on chemistry and strategy in MP FOF - YouTube

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Old 06-05-2020, 04:21 AM   #2
tzach
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legendary.
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Old 06-05-2020, 06:50 AM   #3
Landshark44
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It was great.. I’m a little unclear on how the chemistry color groups, have different “personality traits”... I saw that Tzach even had a chart up that listed “standard deviations”.. ? I’ve heard that some color groups are better to go after, but am unclear what the differences are...

Could you or Quilk or Tzach comment on that in this thread?

Great Video, very well done.. thank you—
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:19 AM   #4
QuikSand
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Here's the URL referenced in the video:
https://sites.google.com/view/tzach/personality-traits

Bottom line - not all players are created equally, believe it or not. For whatever cosmic reason, players in each triad of the chemistry world clearly have some different dice being rolled for some of their traits.

So, if you really value intelligence, frex... the 3-4/5-6/10-11 group is a GOLDMINE. And the 2-3/4-5/6-7 group is a desert.

There are exceptions to every rule - you see the averages posted there, but if you do a large sample you could calculate a standard deviation as an indication of how tight/wide the distribution of the ratings is. If you're not facile with that term, just skip it.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:02 AM   #5
Pyser
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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enjoyed this, feels like a FOF podcast is a natural next step. i had no idea different groups had different traits. it's amazing how there's always new things to learn in this game.

i'd love to hear more from experts on game planning, drafting, and cap management

and i really liked the ending where you guys brainstormed on unexplored avenues in the game. it kind of shows how far off these forums have fallen (whether because forums are becoming outdated, the users are splintered across multiple boards, or other).

speaking of, i was aware of RZB but not too familiar. very cool to see a full league thriving (trades every day! amazing). i was surprised to see threads on exploits and game advantage discussions that never made their way over here, or to other leagues.
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Old 06-05-2020, 11:55 AM   #6
triplykely
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Great chat, thanks for sharing this.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:40 PM   #7
QuikSand
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100 views... who are these people?
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Old 06-06-2020, 03:21 AM   #8
Squirrel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyser View Post
i'd love to hear more from experts on game planning, drafting, and cap management.

As would I! I'm tempted to do some more of these. I had a great time doing this
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Old 06-06-2020, 07:55 AM   #9
Landshark44
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
Here's the URL referenced in the video:
https://sites.google.com/view/tzach/personality-traits

Bottom line - not all players are created equally, believe it or not. For whatever cosmic reason, players in each triad of the chemistry world clearly have some different dice being rolled for some of their traits.

So, if you really value intelligence, frex... the 3-4/5-6/10-11 group is a GOLDMINE. And the 2-3/4-5/6-7 group is a desert.

There are exceptions to every rule - you see the averages posted there, but if you do a large sample you could calculate a standard deviation as an indication of how tight/wide the distribution of the ratings is. If you're not facile with that term, just skip it.

thank you.. i never knew this......

another question I've had.... when you get the chemistry setup you like...

do your leaders have to be active in games, to take advantage of chemistry effects?
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:01 AM   #10
Squirrel
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Originally Posted by Landshark44 View Post
do your leaders have to be active in games, to take advantage of chemistry effects?

Don't think so
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:09 AM   #11
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Landshark44 View Post
thank you.. i never knew this......

another question I've had.... when you get the chemistry setup you like...

do your leaders have to be active in games, to take advantage of chemistry effects?

no, active/inactive doesn't matter

they just need to have enough starts to turn their chemistry effects on (typically 8, but there's something weird there too)

Last edited by QuikSand : 06-06-2020 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 06-06-2020, 01:30 PM   #12
NawlinsFan
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Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
100 views... who are these people?

118 now - and perennial losers like me!
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Old 06-06-2020, 03:56 PM   #13
Landshark44
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Thx guys.. appreciate you sharing
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:43 PM   #14
bomber33bomber
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great video guys... love the discussion and you guys sound very professional! I have never been into chemistry and still not fully sold on it.

Very simple and stupid questions for a newbie:

- Does chemistry/affinity improve a player or a position group?
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Old 06-07-2020, 07:33 AM   #15
QuikSand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber33bomber View Post
- Does chemistry/affinity improve a player or a position group?

The game docs all point toward the overall chemistry of a group affecting the whole group. So, when I sign an affinity bum WR with 95 personality to sit on my bench all year, it's not to make him better, it's to make my WR1 and TE1 better on-field. That's deeply connected to my whole idea of getting value from each and every roster slot.
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Old 06-07-2020, 09:05 AM   #16
NawlinsFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuikSand View Post
The game docs all point toward the overall chemistry of a group affecting the whole group. So, when I sign an affinity bum WR with 95 personality to sit on my bench all year, it's not to make him better, it's to make my WR1 and TE1 better on-field. That's deeply connected to my whole idea of getting value from each and every roster slot.

QS - total paradigm shift here. I was always trying, and failing, to get them on the field and not looking at them holistically. I think I may need to invest some more time going back over the game doc. I was lost at looking at others rosters and seeing these players with terrible ratings and did not understand the relationship. Beginning to see!

Last edited by NawlinsFan : 06-07-2020 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 06-07-2020, 11:10 AM   #17
triplykely
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In the video you mentioned using the tool on the league site for your MP league, any tips to make it easier to find chemistry fits in SP?
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:59 PM   #18
QuikSand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triplykely View Post
In the video you mentioned using the tool on the league site for your MP league, any tips to make it easier to find chemistry fits in SP?

Yes, I wish I had gotten into that on the video. Not a silver bullet, but...

In-game, the key page is obviously (I think obviously) the roster page labeled "Personality." That reveals the leadership and personality strength for each player, including rookies post-draft (even though it's not shown on the player card).

The "Attitude Advisory" includes the simplest summary of where you are with chemistry at the moment, and can be a useful sandbox to mess around with - in single-player, save your game and then see what happens if you cut your lousy OL group leader, of if you move that DB leader safety up to play as a coverage linebacker...whatever. Then reload from the save game if you don't like how it looks.

The biggest bit of advice I have, for someone dipping his toe into the pool here, is... the key rating is personality. Not leadership. So... if you're trying to make chemistry good enough to help your team, then you want to get a lot of chemistry benefit from each roster slot you commit to it.

So...already have most of the WR/TE group settled, but now you want to add a guy to help the happy factor? If he's just sitting on the bench, then a guy rated 23/23 vs. 6/19 is immaterial, as long as he has the starts to click. So, get the guy with the 93 personality, rather than the guy with the 34. And with your leaders... if you are building... don't build around leadership guys, build around personality guys who are strong enough as leaders to take the reins. 99Ldr/99Pers is the gold standard, but if I have to choose between 99/80 and 80/99, I'd rather work with the 80/99 guy who will MAX CLICK, and I'll suffer with the occasional too-high-leadership guy he rules out from being an asset for us.

TL;DR - Use the personality screen, and do your sort by clicking Leadership-then-Personality... that's your home base to screen for players to target in free agency, etc.
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Old 06-07-2020, 01:01 PM   #19
QuikSand
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Also, if you're looking for a specific leader in one group in free agency... I think the easiest way to do that is to sort by birthdate, and then open up older players who you know are in the right range. If I need a 5-6 OL leader, I sort by the oldest players in the league, sorted by birthdate not experience, and work my way down... looking at both OL and also switchable positions like TE, LS, and FB in that order.
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Old 06-07-2020, 01:10 PM   #20
MalcPow
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This was really cool. Great job guys.
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Old 06-07-2020, 02:51 PM   #21
bomber33bomber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber33bomber View Post
great video guys... love the discussion and you guys sound very professional! I have never been into chemistry and still not fully sold on it.

Very simple and stupid questions for a newbie:

- Does chemistry/affinity improve a player or a position group?

more dumb questions:

- how does the position group pick a leader? is it all leadership?

- young leaders.. when do they get picked as a leader? year 5 i think?

- young affinities.. how does a player go from "potential affinity" to affinity?
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Old 06-07-2020, 03:50 PM   #22
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Okay, this stuff is around here and there, but a quick catchup:

-Chemistry works among your 5 position groups: RB/FB, WR/TE, OL, D7, DB
-There's one leader per group, other group members interact with him
-Your QBs all interact with the three offensive group leaders

-It's all based on zodiac, three groupings, each sign has 2x good and 1x bad
-Leaders assigned based on a combination of total experience and leadership
-The precise formula for who leads is unknown, but exp counts up to 8 yrs
-Players don't activate chemistry until they have starts, typically 8 games
-Rookies from rounds 1-4 are the exception, they get it for free for a year
-In a redraft league, looks like everyone counts for year one, no matter what

-The strength of the affinity is a function of leader+follower personality
-A "potential affinity" means the player hasn't gotten his starts yet to click
-Affinities affect the performance of the position group, not just the individual
-Everything about affinities, presumably, is reversed with conflicts

-The overall magnitude of this effect is very hard to measure
-One study a long time ago suggested it's more than 1 win/yr on a good team
-There's anecdotal evidence saying it's valuable, not much rigorous testing
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Old 06-07-2020, 03:53 PM   #23
QuikSand
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Longer discussions here: FOF 8 Chemistry Thread

Some of that stuff weaves through just-after-release revelations, and then changes with patches, and so forth... but most of what "we" know is posted in that thread.
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